ENTj-ISFj duality: examples of LIE-ESI couples

[KSpin]

By the look on her face, he seems to be saying, "Shit, my watch stopped..." rather than tell her to hurry up.

[Joy]

I can see why it would look like that (though I still thinks it looks like he's pointing out the time and saying they need to hurry).

[Logos]

(Cut to snapshot of same still which is being held by a dear old lady. Pull out to reveal she is sitting with a large photo album on her knees, lovingly extracting photos from the pile on top of the album and passing them to her friend sitting on the same settee. Her friend is a young lady, who tears up the photos as they are handed to her. The dear old lady is in a world of her own and does not notice.)


Dear Old Lady : This is Uncle Ted in front of the house.

(She hands over the photo and the young lady tears it up)


This is Uncle Ted at the back of the house.

(She hands over the photo and the young lady tears it up)


And this is Uncle Ted at the side of the house.

(She hands over the photo and the young lady tears it up)


This is Uncle Ted, back again at the front of the house, but you can see the side of the house.

(She hands over the photo and the young lady tears it up)


And this is Uncle Ted even nearer the side of the house, but you can still see the front.

(She hands over the photo and the young lady tears it up)


This is the back of the house, with Uncle Ted coming round the side to the front.

(She hands over the photo and the young lady tears it up)


And this is the Spanish Inquisition hiding behind the coal shed.

(She takes it with her first sign of real interest.)


Young Lady : Oh! I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

(JARRING CHORD.)


Ximinez : Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Joy]

OMG YOU LIKE PUPPIES AND BICYCLES YOU MUST BE LIE OR ESI!!!

What I mean to say is that you are correct. They're not those types because they're like that. They're like that (at least in part) because they are those types. Not everybody who exhibits any of those behaviors has to be the same types they are.

The idea here is to point out what I see in them that I attribute to their being an LIE/ESI dual pair based on my understanding of the theory, duality descriptions, and my own experiences. I think it's more useful than the last thread I posted with these photos, which was pretty much just a slide show.

[eunice]

I have always wanted to marry someone like Paul Newman too. Are there even guys who are like him these days?

[Joy]

yep

[Joy]

Well I think there are certain behavioral traits that is going to be shared between types simply because of strength and weakness of functions.

Some of the behavioral descriptions I see for each type seems to have very similar 3rd function vs 5th and 4th vs 6th descriptions, at least behaviorally. There is text that says, well they prefer this or that is preferred, but often times the behavior is similar. Also from what I've seen, for certain unfinished descriptions, the behavior could easily fit within general weakness or strength in function.

That's why I think of the socion as a set of 8 dual pairs, not 16 types.

What happens is that the preference becomes the type distinction.. and with vague language such as.. "Fe atmosphere" being used to accentuate the description.

Like how many Betas disagree with the Beta Atmosphere.

Maybe they're not Beta?

With Socionic being a Fe based discipline. The intent is to see thru and capture the inner motive of our subjects, rather then concentrate on the sometimes alarming similarity in behavior between certain types such as Quasi-Identical, Contrary, Comparative and Look-Alike relationships. Only by observing and remarking on cognitive process can type be successfully explained.

discipline? not theory?

(I'm not sure I'd call seeing one's inner motive Fe, but I'm not interested in debating the point)

What am I doing... I'm devaluing your Te

Oh?

[Blaze]

paul newman seems so so clearly introverted and she seems so so clearly extraverted. he's quite constrained with no visible Fe. she's got the saleman's smile, so ESI-LIE seems on target.

[Ezra]

Nope. LIE's are far less likely to be punctual than ESI's. That's one of the things ESI's help LIE's with.

Remember, Ni is not about schedules, time (as in what the clock says), or dates. Ni is about the flow of events and the future/past. (That's what's meant when Ni is described as being about "time".)

Ahhhhhhh. I thought LIEs were a bit supermanish.

Yeah, I was pointing out the plaid pants with that coat. (I actually didn't notice that at first... I only liked that photo because of what they're doing.)

I wouldn't have known. My fashion sense is limited to what I think looks quality on me and what doesn't. Fashionistas are slaves and retards because of it.

[Expat]

Nope. LIE's are far less likely to be punctual than ESI's. That's one of the things ESI's help LIE's with.

Remember, Ni is not about schedules, time (as in what the clock says), or dates. Ni is about the flow of events and the future/past. (That's what's meant when Ni is described as being about "time".)

Ahhhhhhh. I thought LIEs were a bit supermanish.

One of the most typical and obvious things in a LIE-ESI interaction is the ESI reminding the LIE that it's time to do something.

[KSpin]

Nope. LIE's are far less likely to be punctual than ESI's. That's one of the things ESI's help LIE's with.

Remember, Ni is not about schedules, time (as in what the clock says), or dates. Ni is about the flow of events and the future/past. (That's what's meant when Ni is described as being about "time".)

Ahhhhhhh. I thought LIEs were a bit supermanish.

One of the most typical and obvious things in a LIE-ESI interaction is the ESI reminding the LIE that it's time to do something.

She may be asking him what the time is, since he's the only one wearing a watch? Although it looks like she -might- be wearing one too. Who knows?

[Joy]

Nope. LIE's are far less likely to be punctual than ESI's. That's one of the things ESI's help LIE's with.

Remember, Ni is not about schedules, time (as in what the clock says), or dates. Ni is about the flow of events and the future/past. (That's what's meant when Ni is described as being about "time".)

Ahhhhhhh. I thought LIEs were a bit supermanish.

One of the most typical and obvious things in a LIE-ESI interaction is the ESI reminding the LIE that it's time to do something.

And many times the LIE saying that it doesn't have to be done until *insert time here*. Then the ESI pointing out that it's almost that time when it's almost that time.

[Expat]

Another LIE - ESI couple --



King Hussein and Queen Noor

[implied]

they're such a sexy couple, seriously.

[Joy]

In all honesty, I just love looking at pics of them because the way their interactions appear is almost identical to my interactions with Peter.

And because Paul Newman is super hot.

[FDG]

I still can't see why LIEs are less punctuals than ESIs. Logical+intuitive vs sensing+feeling! Which is the best at time managing??

[discojoe]

I still can't see why LIEs are less punctuals than ESIs. Logical+intuitive vs sensing+feeling! Which is the best at time managing??

Because ESIs are more prone to worry about time and take lots of precautions to be punctual.

[Joy]

sensory + IJ temperament

Again, Ni is not about calendars and schedules. Those are static points in time. Ni is about underlying cause and effect relationships, the past, and the future. Not Friday, August 2nd at 3:30 pm.

Why on earth would an intuitive type be at keeping on top of a schedule than a sensory type?

[Joy]

Because ESIs are more prone to worry about time and take lots of precautions to be punctual.

lol

yeah, that too

[FDG]

sensory + IJ temperament

Again, Ni is not about calendars and schedules. Those are static points in time. Ni is about underlying cause and effect relationships, the past, and the future. Not Friday, August 2nd at 3:30 pm.

Why on earth would an intuitive type be at keeping on top of a schedule than a sensory type?

ENTjs are Thinking plus EJ temperament, not just intuitive. And ISFjs have Fi as base function, they're not just Se types.
The base function is always stronger than the creative, if we're talking about pure types.
So Te will eventually be responsible for the punctuality, not Ni.
But the issue can be solved this way: you're talking about an heavy Ni-Se ENTj-ISFj couple, I'm talking about an heavy Te-Fe one. Simple.

[Joy]

Isn't Expat a Te-LIE?

[discojoe]

ENTjs are Thinking plus EJ temperament, not just intuitive. And ISFjs have Fi as base function, they're not just Se types.
The base function is always stronger than the creative, if we're talking about pure types.
So Te will eventually be responsible for the punctuality, not Ni.
But the issue can be solved this way: you're talking about an heavy Ni-Se ENTj-ISFj couple, I'm talking about an heavy Te-Fe one. Simple.

Whose Te?

[Ms. Kensington]

Aww, they're cute.

yeah they are cute. the woman doesnt strike me as entj right off the bat, but the male does strike me as ISFj. paul newman, right?

[FDG]

Whose Te?

The ENTj's Te

[discojoe]

I'm worried about you, FDG.

[gracefully]

.

[FDG]

Well, if you don't give him a chance, how do you think you could get parking tickets?

[Jarno]

Should I give "us" a chance? Please advice.

yes and for the following reasons:

I know a ESI LIE couple, they are very happy, have 2 children. He's got two jobs, likes it, is becoming a millionaire soon. He indeed works his ass off, but I never saw any hints that he's neglecting his wife. They are both together for 7 years or so, their age 33.

The next reason might sound stupid, but it isn't. Once you've met your dual and know how great it is, it is first of all, really hard when you lose him. You'll grief a lot. Second, every other type of relationship is way less then duality. You'll find it hard to stay interested in other types, and keep thinking how 'things could have been'. Even if you date someone else, who sais that that person won't become a workaholic and neglect you etc.

So to summarize, I think letting go of your dual is the most idiotic thing to do. (oh and I speak from my own experience :-)

[FDG]

I personally wouldn't, because of the character traits you mentioned (self-centered, treats people poorly, and different based on their status, and ease in talking his way out of things usually goes hand-in-hand with an ease in deception and manipulation as well.) You sound Fe.

She doesn't sound Fe, neither does him. She sounds 100% ISFj.

Anyway, I like to work, but I don't think I've ever neglected a girlfriend for this. Sometiemes I neglect some sleep, or maybe going out at night, or getting drunk.

I'm not sure about treating people callously; which kind of people does he treat badly? Everybody? In that case, yeah, stay away from him. Just people he thinks are idiots? In that case, since he doesn't think you're an idiot, then he won't treat you callously. Te accepting types are somewhat simple in terms of psychological structure.

[FDG]

Doesn't matter what type she is, what does matter is the character of this guy. If she already has doubts about that, it doesn't look good.

I'd say her post is something like 50-50. I agree that she shouldn't think about marrying him (eek) even before she has tried a relationship, but I don't think it's enough not to give it a shot, since she also feels an high degree of compatibility.

[implied]

Doesn't matter what type she is, what does matter is the character of this guy. If she already has doubts about that, it doesn't look good.

i love you diana. i feel like you're brilliantly correct on this.

[Mattie]

From what I've gathered, there really wasn't a chance for you two to focus on your relationship, because of your studies. Marriage doesn't seem like something that you should consider yet because you guys haven't really been long term in a relationship (only 4 dates?). You might already know your dynamics as friends, but things always change when you're constantly around your romantic partner. I think you need to get to a stage with him where you can directly ask him these questions, or figure these questions out for yourself. I find that relationships need arguments and conflicts in order to grow, so eventually you will have to come into conflict with how he treats people and help him become more aware, so he can change. If you tell him that the way he treats people is turning you away from him, and he doesn't make any effort to change, then you know he's not worth it. I don't mean that people should change for one another, but be aware of their weaknesses and try to round out those areas. If you two are indeed a dual relation, you will show him by how you naturally interact with people and such, when you're around someone constant/long enough, your traits start to rub off on one another, and with duality (I hypothesize) the functions you are weak in but value will start to rub off on each other with the help of one another. I'd say be casual about it until you know you both can invest time in a relationship where you can see each other often, and see how things develop there first. Hope this helped!

[Expat]

He doesn't treat everyone callously just the ones he find stupid, or slow. Most of the time, he can get along well with people. At work, he's very courteous to his superiors.

Forgive my bluntness, but he sounds like a real jerk to me. It looks like he knows very well when he's being callous - so it's not as if he's genuinely "tactless" in the sense of not being aware of how he comes across - but that he doesn't care, except to his superiors. "Those who can't beat the ass, beat the saddle".

Anyway, rather than duality, this sounds more like some forms of supervision, or benefit.

[Jarno]

We can debate very long whether this is the perfect husband or not, but let me ask it in a more simple way.

What are the odds that you will find and meet a better dual than this one? So one who's also articulate, also intelligent, also expressive face, also childish, a take charge type, but one who takes charge without calling anyone stupid. Oh and who happens to be single...

Please name a time span, and then we'll discuss further.

[gracefully]

We can debate very long whether this is the perfect husband or not, but let me ask it in a more simple way.

What are the odds that you will find and meet a better dual than this one? So one that is also single, also articulate, also intelligent, also expressive face, also childish, a take charge type, but one who takes charge without calling anyone stupid.

Please name a time span, and then we'll discuss further.

That's what I'm afraid of, that I won't find another dual. I'm in my early 20s and I don't think the probability of meeting another dual is high (especially one that is also very considerate of others). That's why I don't to completely let him go until I make an informed decision.

[Jarno]

That's what I'm afraid of, that I won't find another dual. I'm in my early 20s and I don't think the probability of meeting another dual is high (especially one that is also very considerate of others). That's why I don't to completely let him go until I make an informed decision.

It depends how much effort you put into it. I had this obsession about finding (a new) dual, but in the end I just discovered that they all had their flaws...

You know there are people out there being happy with an illusionary/mirror/semi-dual who drinks gambles and has no income. You have a luxury problem!

So as I see it, you've got more to lose than to win.

But hey, I don't know the guy, if he's an asshole first class, then dump him :-d

edit: BTW why not just see how things go, you can always decide later right?

[Logos]

Forgive my bluntness, but he sounds like a real jerk to me. It looks like he knows very well when he's being callous - so it's not as if he's genuinely "tactless" in the sense of not being aware of how he comes across - but that he doesn't care, except to his superiors. "Those who can't beat the ass, beat the saddle".

Anyway, rather than duality, this sounds more like some forms of supervision, or benefit.

He could still be an LIE. He may be trying to show and create the feeling of Se-fulfillment.

[Expat]

He could still be an LIE. He may be trying to show and create the feeling of Se-fulfillment.

My views on him being a jerk are stronger than my views on the socionics thing going on.

[tiny_dancer]

I agree with Diana and Expat. Don't worry! The fact that you're in your early twenties is very encouraging. You'll find out so much more about yourself in the next few years and you will meet another person who doesn't give you these doubts. No settling!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Just take it slow. Do you really have to finalize anything? A relationship by its very nature is an on-going, continuing process. And even though he's a jerk, that won't stop you from being attracted to each other because as long as he's not being a jerk to you, then you probably won't care.

You don't have to 'break up' and you don't have to get married or be 'official.' It sounds like you're still getting to know him, if he really was the one - trust me, you wouldn't be asking strangers online for advice -- you'd be so enthralled by each other the whole world would melt away as that's what happens when real love has occurred.

You just have a good feeling about him, and yeah that can be nice but I just know from personal experience that it takes a lot more than that to make a real relationship work out. It's not love if you have to ask somebody.

Trust your own intuition. Women to me are naturally better at relationships anyway. So it doesn't matter what me or Expat or Diana or anybody says, it just matters what *you* want. Fuck I don't know this guy, I don't know you- so how could I give advice? Based on what you say- it still isn't enough for me to really tell you one way or another what to do with this person.