How is Ti PoLR manifested in ENFps and ESFps?

[strrrng]

most Ti-polrs I've dealt with just kind of blithely take the liberty to disregard/disrespect rules in all forms, no matter how trivial. and they circumvent criticism of it by mockingly overdoing their demonstrative Fe to redirect things/undermine others. and a lot of times it seems like it pisses off Fe-egos more than Ti-egos, actually.

[LuckyOne]

@LuckyOne lmao it's a trap

from this exchange you'd think it's Ti that's his polr, but no his Te is even worse. too bad you can only choose one polr.

Lmao really, I find that hard to believe!

[flames]

[Grendel]

I despise SQL with the fury of a thousand suns.

[niffer]

Anyway, perhaps LIIs are the least likely to make ad hominem arguments. In my experience.

I've known some unhealthy LIIs who could get snarky and stand up for themselves that way or pre-emptively lash out thx to their Se polr glitching along with low Fe social neuroticism.

In all honesty the types that are least likely to make them in my experience are xLEs. How can one properly get at ad hominem triggers if they don't even have Fi after all?? By ad hominem here I mean manipulating the public's view of somebody's character, specifically to gain the upper hand against them. Trump tries a lot but it's always so planned and forced and he obviously doesn't accomplish it very well. Most xLEs don't even have the balls (or tunnel visioned arrogance, w/e) to make a genuine attempt like he does. We tend to focus on the ideas itself, and insults are treated as separate asides.

For example I think you are an idiot, but I won't ignore your points because of that. You however would be more likely to dismiss me simply based on the fact that you know I think you're an idiot.

[Exodus]

Another point, since people were talking about the interaction between Ti ego and Ti Vulnerable:

In my experience this conflict usually takes the form of pointing out contradictions in their behavior: saying one thing and doing another, not taking promises or obligations seriously, saying contradictory things based on the situation, or being biased toward certain people.

[Delilah]

^Ti polr in action.

seriously, this is what i notice about them. they totally overreact to Ti...this is the main characteristic of Ti polr. they claim that Ti is rigid....when really it's that they don't understand what Ti egos are talking about.

lol this made me smile, ime Ti polr gives both a commitment to the theory (in this case) and a commitment to exceptions to the rule by pointing them out so it comes down to a bit of a half-hearted commitment to things and people etc in general, imo

[Tigerfadder]

I seen some SEE's state a lot of "facts" and be obsessed with them yet not care deeply about the context those facts where made.

[Aylen]

Well unfortunately, what you said (not all) were what SLEs are also said to do:

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...roverted_logic

And yes, that shit is annoying. Like say, Trump.

Anyway, perhaps LIIs are the least likely to make ad hominem arguments. In my experience.

Yes, he is annoying and also appears to be Ti polr. We should all go cherry picking more often.

The experience of strange errors also always does not produce on it a sufficient impression Caesar it can as much as desired confer and consult, but in the final analysis he will enter in its own way, despite all councils and common sense. Caesar distinguishes the exceptional ability constantly "to fill lumps" at one and the same place. Deeply to suffer, to suffer and to ask in all and each, why this every time occurs precisely with it, and what deficiencies it should in itself eliminate so that these misfortunes finally would cease they be required colossal patience and endurance (qualities, inherent in its dualu to Balzac) in order to train Caesar to analyze the experience of past errors, i.e. the very thing, what Caesar, in spite of the desire of those surrounding, to make decisively rejects (and you do not request, and do not persuade!) It entered and enters only, as it will deem necessary to it, but otherwise it simply cannot be itself itself.


For Caesar the need for thoroughly thinking over its behavior, behaving prudently presents serious problem and it is reasonable. Observations in the illogicality of its own actions it does not transfer the requirement to be sequential in its actions is derived it from itself. For it to characteristically act wisely and logically only until this from it they require, until they respect it also they are considered it. But it is worthwhile to only accentuate attention in its illogicality, as all its actions immediately they cease logically to be checked and acquire the nature of disorderly, panicky fuss.
The charges of Caesar in the illogicality only aggravate his problems. Itself Caesar very painfully transfers any criticism in his address, and since requirements for themselves in it are sufficiently overstated, to it it is difficult to recognize with the presence of all its merits this deficiency as faulty logic. Caesar it generally is desirable to be man without the deficiencies. (A whom of this it does not want?) Therefore Caesar greatly survives, when they give low estimation to his mental abilities. To it it is very difficult to allow itself not to be cleverest (although this is better, that it can for itself make).

[Myst]

I've known some unhealthy LIIs who could get snarky and stand up for themselves that way or pre-emptively lash out thx to their Se polr glitching along with low Fe social neuroticism.

Well put, I have that experience with some of them.

In all honesty the types that are least likely to make them in my experience are xLEs. How can one properly get at ad hominem triggers if they don't even have Fi after all?? By ad hominem here I mean manipulating the public's view of somebody's character, specifically to gain the upper hand against them. Trump tries a lot but it's always so planned and forced and he obviously doesn't accomplish it very well. Most xLEs don't even have the balls (or tunnel visioned arrogance, w/e) to make a genuine attempt like he does. We tend to focus on the ideas itself, and insults are treated as separate asides.

I don't know if this is Fi in superego or what, but I definitely relate to your second and last sentence here a lot.

[niffer]

Yes, he is annoying and also appears to be Ti polr. We should all go cherry picking more often.

What you just did isn't the same thing as cherry picking. @Singularity I'm mentioning you so you learn this too.

And Trump is annoying, but he's not nearly as illogical as what's described in that excerpt.

[niffer]

seriously, this is what i notice about them. they totally overreact to Ti...this is the main characteristic of Ti polr. they claim that Ti is rigid....when really it's that they don't understand what Ti egos are talking about.​

THIS x 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000

I find that a lot of Ti polrs instead just feel pre-emptively intimidated or put off by thinking I'm being patronizing to them or something like a dad who's about to beat them when that is NEVER my intention. They are not focused on trying to understand the CONTENT and focus way too much on tone and relationships. It's like they're worried that if they don't understand something, others will get upset at them (or that when others regulate their emotional expression in a way that's different from Fe polrs or other Ti polrs, it means that they're upset with them and they get alarmed and confused by their expressions). Or that too much emotional showiness from others will bowl them over--they think that only THEY can be emotionally showy or expressive because they have such perfect control over it with their Fe demo. WTF is this about I am seriously wondering. Did overemotional people beat you guys every time you answered a math question incorrectly or what?

[squark]

THIS x 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000

I find that a lot of Ti polrs instead just feel pre-emptively intimidated or put off by thinking I'm being patronizing to them or something like a dad who's about to beat them when that is NEVER my intention. They are not focused on trying to understand the CONTENT and focus way too much on tone and relationships. It's like they're worried that if they don't understand something, others will get upset at them (or that when others regulate their emotional expression in a way that's different from Fe polrs or other Ti polrs, it means that they're upset with them and they get alarmed and confused by their expressions). Or that too much emotional showiness from others will bowl them over--they think that only THEY can be emotionally showy or expressive because they have such perfect control over it with their Fe demo. WTF is this about I am seriously wondering. Did overemotional people beat you guys every time you answered a math question incorrectly or what?

This doesn't sound much like Ti polr. Not sure exactly what you're trying to describe here.

[LuckyOne]

This doesn't sound much like Ti polr. Not sure exactly what you're trying to describe here.

I believe she's trying to describe their responses to a PoLR hit, not the thing itself. I've experienced the same thing she's described a lot with my mom who's IEE. But never with SEE's since they usually respond to being corrected by showing anger, or trying to play it off as having no importance to them.

Both types have HA and so it upsets the on a personal level to be wrong, but while the IEE's brings the confusion it sets the SEE's off.

[shakealittle]

My manager is an IEE and as a LSI, I have been burnt a lot because my manager doesn't understand context. He would make a great journalist.

I told him I couldn't attend a meeting outside work hours, the next thing i know, he sends out an email saying I've decided to step down from that job? There is absolutely no use trying to clarify things with him, in true conflictor style, the more we talk, the worse it is, the more he tries to find loopholes, we could really talk for ages without getting anywhere. I often have had to get a third party in to try and establish an understanding of things between us. From my perspective, it seems like he complicates/messes things up when there is absolutely no reason to.

My industry is very heavy on rules and he seems to misinterpret them and other times, he follows them too literally when it's well within reason not to follow them.

[niffer]

My manager is an IEE and as a LSI, I have been burnt a lot because my manager doesn't understand context.

It's funny that you say this, because a lot of LSIs need constant guidance and clarification to understand context, in my experience. Which they try to pass off as the other person being illogical or nonsensical ... when it's really the LSI doesn't get the context and doesn't want to look like a fool. Funny how conflictors can have similar behaviours in that way.

[Singu]

Some complaining, constructive criticism and attempts at understanding are good, but irrational hostility, constant bitching or claiming of superiority of certain X over the other that does not contribute to any more understanding will just turn to "typism" or "functionism" or "quadraism". It's unhealthy. Not necessarily talking about this thread, but just wanted to let that out.

Also, we are all emotional creatures, we tend to rationalize what we have already emotionally decided prior. Almost no one can claim to being 100% objective or logical or rational all of the time, unless he/she is a God. However perhaps with maturity, one begins to be more fair, more objective, less manipulative and so on. And yes... we also learn how to be more tactful at the same time as well.

[niffer]

Some complaining, constructive criticism and attempts at understanding are good, but excess of it will just turn to "typism" or "functionism" or "quadraism". It's unhealthy. Not necessarily talking about this thread, but just wanted to let that out.

Also, we are all emotional creatures, we tend to rationalize what we have already emotionally decided prior. Almost no one can claim to being 100% objective or logical or rational all of the time, unless he/she is a God. However perhaps with maturity, one begins to be more fair, more objective, less manipulative and so on. And yes... we also learn how to be more tactful at the same time as well.

I agree with you that excessive criticism and complaining about types is bad, generates hostility, and contributes to typism. But I respectfully disagree that constructive criticism and attempts at understanding, if applied respectfully, should have a limit. It's these attempts at sharing experiences and generating understanding that are why we have this forum, and while criticism can be difficult to hear, it's also one of the only things that helps people to grow.

I think your sentiments are valid and are important suggestions for this forum to take into consideration though. In my opinion, you should start a thread about it.

[niffer]

@Singularity Ok, now that you've edited your post T_T I like it. (you can read his original post from inside the quoting of him i made above, lol, guess he edited it from that without crediting me so i have to do it myself #rude #Te-polr).

I still think you should make a thread about it or something so that the issue gets more exposure.
(Or you can do it with me )
(but first, bend over)

[Chae]

Lmao me, meanwhile Ti:

[Chae]

Can't help myself need to bring this one back

[squark]

I believe she's trying to describe their responses to a PoLR hit, not the thing itself. I've experienced the same thing she's described a lot with my mom who's IEE. But never with SEE's since they usually respond to being corrected by showing anger, or trying to play it off as having no importance to them.

Both types have HA and so it upsets the on a personal level to be wrong, but while the IEE's brings the confusion it sets the SEE's off.

While I have a lot more experience irl with SEEs than IEEs, nothing in what she wrote sounds much like how either type reacts, or would react. Or they don't react this way to me at any rate. I've been yelled at to "stop being so logical" lol which just made me confused, because. . . what? But, overfocusing on tone of voice? Or overreacting to someone's emotions? I haven't ever seen this, and it doesn't make a lot of sense in context of the type. What I have seen is the more emotional someone else gets, the calmer the Fi creative gets, and they dampen and kind of absorb the extra-emotionality to calm people down. It's a good strategy and works well with some people, not as much with others, but like any behaviour, this can be learned.

---------
As an aside - the complaints to stop being so logical, was during disagreements where they expected me to take something on faith, or to accept something because of how they felt about it, and they didn't like that I took a different approach. While I can't say everyone with Ti-polr reacts this way as it could just be those particular people, it's I think one demonstration of how Fi can take precedence over Ti. In general, the only time I've seen people actually get upset about someone else's use of their polr is when it conflicts with their creative. You can appreciate the use of it up until it starts interfering with what you see as more important to focus on. That's when it becomes irritating and people can lash out. For instance, I can see the value of Ne and how people can utilize it, and can even accept Ne input until it becomes too unrealistic or starts distracting from the real issue at hand. And the complaints of Ti polrs in this thread have followed a similar line - Ti is fine, up until it starts getting in the way of their more valued fxns.

Seeing other people use your polr isn't really an issue in most cases, and you might even like that someone else has that area covered. I don't think there's a whole lot of hate directed at the element in the polr position, most of the time you're just blithely unaware of it and only use it in a rudimentary way when you have to. If anything, it's a blindness and you don't even know what you're missing.

[niffer]

While I have a lot more experience irl with SEEs than IEEs, nothing in what she wrote sounds much like how either type reacts, or would react. Or they don't react this way to me at any rate. I've been yelled at to "stop being so logical" lol which just made me confused, because. . . what? But, overfocusing on tone of voice? Or overreacting to someone's emotions? I haven't ever seen this, and it doesn't make a lot of sense in context of the type. What I have seen is the more emotional someone else gets, the calmer the Fi creative gets, and they dampen and kind of absorb the extra-emotionality to calm people down. It's a good strategy and works well with some people, not as much with others, but like any behaviour, this can be learned.

---------
As an aside - the complaints to stop being so logical, was during disagreements where they expected me to take something on faith, or to accept something because of how they felt about it, and they didn't like that I took a different approach. While I can't say everyone with Ti-polr reacts this way as it could just be those particular people, it's I think one demonstration of how Fi can take precedence over Ti. In general, the only time I've seen people actually get upset about someone else's use of their polr is when it conflicts with their creative. You can appreciate the use of it up until it starts interfering with what you see as more important to focus on. That's when it becomes irritating and people can lash out. For instance, I can see the value of Ne and how people can utilize it, and can even accept Ne input until it becomes too unrealistic or starts distracting from the real issue at hand. And the complaints of Ti polrs in this thread have followed a similar line - Ti is fine, up until it starts getting in the way of their more valued fxns.

Seeing other people use your polr isn't really an issue in most cases, and you might even like that someone else has that area covered. I don't think there's a whole lot of hate directed at the element in the polr position, most of the time you're just blithely unaware of it and only use it in a rudimentary way when you have to. If anything, it's a blindness and you don't even know what you're missing.

Perhaps the fact that you have 4D Ti, with your inherent lack of emotional showiness has something to do with it. You would have a higher degree of Ti dimensionality and refined control over your Ti, and refined control over IEs tends to manifest as less "annoying" most of the time. The original poster that I quoted from who had experienced this was an ILE, and LuckyOne and I are both SLEs. It would make sense that our Ti would be more grating on xEEs.

[LuckyOne]

While I have a lot more experience irl with SEEs than IEEs, nothing in what she wrote sounds much like how either type reacts, or would react. Or they don't react this way to me at any rate. I've been yelled at to "stop being so logical" lol which just made me confused, because. . . what? But, overfocusing on tone of voice? Or overreacting to someone's emotions? I haven't ever seen this, and it doesn't make a lot of sense in context of the type. What I have seen is the more emotional someone else gets, the calmer the Fi creative gets, and they dampen and kind of absorb the extra-emotionality to calm people down. It's a good strategy and works well with some people, not as much with others, but like any behaviour, this can be learned.

I'd love to know how you're so certain you have more experience with these types than either me or @niffer. Do you keep a score or? Please don't tell you think that because I used my mom as an example that she's the only IEE I've ever seen that displays this behaviour.

I haven't said anything about overreacting to someone's emotions because that has no direct relation to PoLR. But over focusing on the tone of voice definitely happens, though I don't actually believe they care that much, I think they use it as a (lame) tactic to derail the conversation. Once you either apologize for the tone or just repeats your comment on a different one you can see they were stalling for time, but usually still don't have a comeback ready.

I've never seen anyone actually say that phrase in real life, it's just so ...ridiculous. I've gotten things like "You're always making me feel dumb", "Don't be a party pooper", "You're over thinking", "Don't be so cold", "Don't kill my vibe", "You're destroying my dream" "IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE!!!" (that's a favorite).

Indeed I've seen IEEs calm people down like you've described (not SEEs), but this has nothing to do with this context. They can only calm others down when they are chill themselves, which is the opposite of what happens when they get a particularly strong hit.

As an aside - the complaints to stop being so logical, was during disagreements where they expected me to take something on faith, or to accept something because of how they felt about it, and they didn't like that I took a different approach. While I can't say everyone with Ti-polr reacts this way as it could just be those particular people, it's I think one demonstration of how Fi can take precedence over Ti. In general, the only time I've seen people actually get upset about someone else's use of their polr is when it conflicts with their creative. You can appreciate the use of it up until it starts interfering with what you see as more important to focus on. That's when it becomes irritating and people can lash out. For instance, I can see the value of Ne and how people can utilize it, and can even accept Ne input until it becomes too unrealistic or starts distracting from the real issue at hand. And the complaints of Ti polrs in this thread have followed a similar line - Ti is fine, up until it starts getting in the way of their more valued fxns.

Seeing other people use your polr isn't really an issue in most cases, and you might even like that someone else has that area covered. I don't think there's a whole lot of hate directed at the element in the polr position, most of the time you're just blithely unaware of it and only use it in a rudimentary way when you have to. If anything, it's a blindness and you don't even know what you're missing.

I believe the strength of the PoLR depends on several factors like whether you're aware of it and have worked on it or not, and the influence of Enneagram type which can highlight the issue. The responses to the hits vary according to factors like subtype and personal history with people's responses to your weakness in the area etc.

For some their PoLR will be just a blind spot, for others an Achilles heel they're well aware of, the problem is most people push the idea that it has to manifest the same way to everybody.

[LuckyOne]

Perhaps the fact that you have 4D Ti, with your inherent lack of emotional showiness has something to do with it. You would have a higher degree of Ti dimensionality and refined control over your Ti, and refined control over IEs tends to manifest as less "annoying" most of the time. The original poster that I quoted from who had experienced this was an ILE, and LuckyOne and I are both SLEs. It would make sense that our Ti would be more grating on xEEs.

Lol, prove it, I've been waiting

[squark]

I'd love to know how you're so certain you have more experience with these types than either me or @niffer. Do you keep a score or? Please don't tell you think that because I used my mom as an example that she's the only IEE I've ever seen that displays this behaviour.

I never said anything of the sort, and I don't think it matters. I said I have more experience in real life with SEEs than with IEEs. This is comparing how many SEEs I've known in real life to how many IEEs I've known in real life. It doesn't have anything to do with you or niffer.

I haven't said anything about overreacting to someone's emotions because that has no direct relation to PoLR. But over focusing on the tone of voice definitely happens, though I don't actually believe they care that much, I think they use it as a (lame) tactic to derail the conversation. Once you either apologize for the tone or just repeats your comment on a different one you can see they were stalling for time and still don't have a comeback ready.

Tone of voice etc is Fe related, but if it's just to derail the conversation then it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

I've never seen anyone actually say that phrase in real life, it's just so ...ridiculous.

I have. I also thought it was ridiculous. And yet it was said. Also variations of it, such as "I don't care about your logic, this is how I feel." I've gotten this one you listed too:

"IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE!!!"

I believe the strength of the PoLR depends on several factors like whether you're aware of it and have worked on it or not, and the influence of Enneagram type which can highlight the issue. The responses to the hits due vary according to factors like subtype and personal history with people's responses to your weakness in the area etc.

For some their PoLR will be just a blind spot, for others an Achilles heel they're well aware of, the problem is most people push the idea that it has to manifest the same way to everybody.

I don't think you can actually work on your polr, you can only work around it. Anndelise described some of how she does this with Ti in this thread. There was another discussing using HA to cover for it. If you were able to see the full dimensionality of the fxn, it wouldn't be your polr.

[LuckyOne]

Tone of voice etc is Fe related, but if it's just to derail the conversation then it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

How it doesn't have to do with anything when the thing being discussed at that point was their responses to a PoLR hit? Indeed here I can see @niffer was right about LSIs and context.

I have. I also thought it was ridiculous. And yet it was said. Also variations of it, such as "I don't care about your logic, this is how I feel." I've gotten this one you listed too:

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE!!!"

This just proves the very point @niffer made and you revoked: that IxEEs respond emotionally (therefore irrationality) to having their faulty logic pointed out. I don't understand how it escapes you. Tell me what's calm about this kind of response?

I don't think you can actually work on your polr, you can only work around it. Anndelise described some of how she does this with Ti in this thread. There was another discussing using HA to cover for it. If you were able to see the full dimensionality of the fxn, it wouldn't be your polr.

I disagree, instinctual variants can sure help at it i.e. I'm Sp second (is my healthy and stable one), so my PoLR is hardly as noticeable as it'd be if I was Sp last for example. Being E8 also helps, because it makes me naturally wired to be on top of things that could go wrong and threatened me. It's a conscious effort and I never said the PoLR could be fixed, just dealt with. It's exhausting for me to fix on and I'm clumsy at it, but not incapable.

You don't have to see the full dimensionality of a function to understand how your incompetence in it can be a problem.

@Singularity btw if you're using an Andy Biersack avatar as a way to deter me from reading and responding to your posts, you've succeeded.

Goodbye.

He has taken over the forum like a virus

[squark]

How it doesn't have to do with anything when the thing being discussed at that point was their responses to a PoLR hit?

Using something to distract from a conversation is the only point you were making. What they use as that distraction does not matter.

This just proves the very point @niffer made and you revoked: that IxEEs respond emotionally (therefore irrationality) to having their faulty logic pointed out. I don't understand how it escapes you. Tell me what's calm about this kind of response?

You're mixing things together that don't belong together. There are separate things being discussed. One was about how I have seen some Fi creatives react to emotion from other people. I've seen some of them dispel other people's emotions by becoming calmer themselves, and it often works. This is something that anyone can learn how to do however.

The other thing being discussed was the reaction to someone else using your polr. I said that people are more likely to react when it conflicts with their creative fxn.

I disagree, instinctual variants can sure help at it i.e. I'm Sp second (is my healthy and stable one), so my PoLR is hardly as noticeable as it'd be if I was Sp last for example. Being E8 also helps, because it makes me naturally wired to be on top of things that could go wrong and threatened me. It's a conscious effort and I never said the PoLR could be fixed, just dealt with. It's exhausting for me to fix on and I'm clumsy at it, but not incapable.

You don't have to see the full dimensionality of a function to understand how your incompetence in it can be a problem.

While Si and sp can look related/similar, they are different things and being sp doesn't help anyone's Si.

Everyone can use their polrs in a rudimentary way, and there will be times you have to. You can get better at certain aspects of it, but that's all. If you think about dimensionality in a physical way, then a 1-dimensional fxn operates along a single line. You can improve how well you travel that line, but you can't jump off of it or expand it in other directions. You can find ways to work around it, to make it less of an issue, but that's by using your other, stronger fxns, or asking for input from someone who can see more than you can. I don't think I suck at Ne in the ways that I am able to use it (for problem-solving, considering options etc,) but Ne bases show that there's a whole lot more to it than that, things that would never even cross my mind. It's a matter of you don't know what you don't know. So while a person might think they're improving their polr, they're only improving it in ways that they can see and work with - it's still one-dimensional.

[LuckyOne]

Using something to distract from a conversation is the only point you were making. What they use as that distraction does not matter.

Correction: the only point you got.

You're mixing things together that don't belong together. There are separate things being discussed. One was about how I have seen some Fi creatives react to emotion from other people. I've seen some of them dispel other people's emotions by becoming calmer themselves, and it often works. This is something that anyone can learn how to do however.

The other thing being discussed was the reaction to someone else using your polr. I said that people are more likely to react when it conflicts with their creative fxn.

That's irrelevant to the question being asked in the thread in the first place. It's a byproduct of other types reacting to it, not the thing itself. Me and @niffer have only commented on the follow up to the PoLR manifesting after we both provided the thread with several examples of PoLR manifesting, as an interesting aside, not the main point. You're yet to do the same, though I've seen you theorizing on why you think PoLR exists in IxEEs in previous pages.


And you keep throwing the "anyone can" comment around so much one would think there's no connection to behaviour and type at all. So far you have sorely focused on disagreeing with other opinions and pointing out why according to you, they are wrong. The anecdotes you've provided are examples of how they proceed once their PoLR has been hit, not how it manifests, which is the point of the thread. The one who keeps missing it is you in your quest to discredit and dismiss every point being made for whatever reason. You're focusing on a totally nonessential part of the discussion as a whole without providing the input that was asked, is transparent how convenient it is of a position to cherry pick from. Every post you make is derailment of the topic at hand: How does PoLR manifest in ENFps and ESFps? Answer it.

While Si and sp can look related/similar, they are different things and being sp doesn't help anyone's Si.

Everyone can use their polrs in a rudimentary way, and there will be times you have to. You can get better at certain aspects of it, but that's all. If you think about dimensionality in a physical way, then a 1-dimensional fxn operates along a single line. You can improve how well you travel that line, but you can't jump off of it or expand it in other directions. You can find ways to work around it, to make it less of an issue, but that's by using your other, stronger fxns, or asking for input from someone who can see more than you can. I don't think I suck at Ne in the ways that I am able to use it (for problem-solving, considering options etc,) but Ne bases show that there's a whole lot more to it than that, things that would never even cross my mind. It's a matter of you don't know what you don't know. So while a person might think they're improving their polr, they're only improving it in ways that they can see and work with - it's still one-dimensional.

Never said they were the same thing or that it'd help the actual function (which is illogical), only that its position could help a person deal with it's incompetence, because focus is a part of it. These are two different things and yet you're once again attributing incorrect intent behind what's being said. At this point I can't not see it as intentional, coming from a lead.

I'm inclined to believe you're grasping at straws here so you can discourse on function dimension. It's the only explanation to why are you going on about it when it has zero relation to the point I made or the point of the thread. Getting better at PoLR is all I have commented on, yet you're wasting your time stating obvious things as improving =/= being good at. We all know that, thank you.

[Grendel]

By ad hominem here I mean manipulating the public's view of somebody's character, specifically to gain the upper hand against them. Trump tries a lot but it's always so planned and forced and he obviously doesn't accomplish it very well. Most xLEs don't even have the balls (or tunnel visioned arrogance, w/e) to make a genuine attempt like he does. We tend to focus on the ideas itself, and insults are treated as separate asides.

Does this definition also include refusal to even address the opponent's arguments on their own terms, instead brute-forcing the discussion with insults and personal invalidations in lieu of actual arguments? Curious because I've seen probable EP-types do this before and it's become a serious pain in the ass in said scenarios.

[squark]

Me and @niffer have only commented on the follow up to the PoLR manifesting after we both provided the thread with several examples of PoLR manifesting, as an interesting aside, not the main point. You're yet to do the same, though I've seen you theorizing on why you think PoLR exists in IxEEs in previous pages.

You seem so intent on arguing that you're failing to read what was actually said. The example she gave and that I commented on wasn't an example of Ti polr at all, which is why I commented on it in the first place. I did however give examples from my own experience of how I've seen Ti polr work in people. It wasn't theorizing - it was what I've actually seen.

And you keep throwing the "anyone can" comment around so much one would think there's no connection to behaviour and type at all.

There isn't as much of connection as you'd think, because the same behavior can be done for very different reasons. And the same reasons can lead to very different behavior. What is important is not the behavior itself, but the reasons behind it, how the thought process itself works, which is why I prefer to focus on that. It's why I gave examples of how Ti polr can manifest in various different ways, all of which I've seen myself, and what the common thread behind those different behaviors are. That's what matters - that common thread, the reason behind it. Certain elements can be related to certain behaviors, but that is never to say that all people with that element in their ego act in the same way.

[LuckyOne]

You seem so intent on arguing that you're failing to read what was actually said. The example she gave and that I commented on wasn't an example of Ti polr at all, which is why I commented on it in the first place. I did however give examples from my own experience of how I've seen Ti polr work in people. It wasn't theorizing - it was what I've actually seen.

There isn't as much of connection as you'd think, because the same behavior can be done for very different reasons. And the same reasons can lead to very different behavior. What is important is not the behavior itself, but the reasons behind it, how the thought process itself works, which is why I prefer to focus on that. It's why I gave examples of how Ti polr can manifest in various different ways, all of which I've seen myself, and what the common thread behind those different behaviors are. That's what matters - that common thread, the reason behind it. Certain elements can be related to certain behaviors, but that is never to say that all people with that element in their ego act in the same way.

I appreciate your nerve, really, no irony.

Again stating the obvious and "explaining" how wrong I am about things I've never said, or implied. You should be more open and direct when it comes to your necessity in teaching others, maybe there's a career there, and I'm 100% serious. And where are those PoLR manifestation examples? I've read every page of this thread and like I've said, your posts are all about how IxEEs PoLR supposedly don't manifest and the whole emotional responses thing.

[squark]

And where are those PoLR manifestation examples? I've read every page of this thread and like I've said, your posts are all about how IxEEs PoLR supposedly don't manifest and the whole emotional responses thing.

My first post in this thread whichever page that is on.

[LuckyOne]

My first post in this thread whichever page that is on.

This is your first post, which by the way was last page :

This doesn't sound much like Ti polr. Not sure exactly what you're trying to describe here.

Your second post:

While I have a lot more experience irl with SEEs than IEEs, nothing in what she wrote sounds much like how either type reacts, or would react. Or they don't react this way to me at any rate. I've been yelled at to "stop being so logical" lol which just made me confused, because. . . what? But, overfocusing on tone of voice? Or overreacting to someone's emotions? I haven't ever seen this, and it doesn't make a lot of sense in context of the type. What I have seen is the more emotional someone else gets, the calmer the Fi creative gets, and they dampen and kind of absorb the extra-emotionality to calm people down. It's a good strategy and works well with some people, not as much with others, but like any behaviour, this can be learned.

---------
As an aside - the complaints to stop being so logical, was during disagreements where they expected me to take something on faith, or to accept something because of how they felt about it, and they didn't like that I took a different approach. While I can't say everyone with Ti-polr reacts this way as it could just be those particular people, it's I think one demonstration of how Fi can take precedence over Ti. In general, the only time I've seen people actually get upset about someone else's use of their polr is when it conflicts with their creative. You can appreciate the use of it up until it starts interfering with what you see as more important to focus on. That's when it becomes irritating and people can lash out. For instance, I can see the value of Ne and how people can utilize it, and can even accept Ne input until it becomes too unrealistic or starts distracting from the real issue at hand. And the complaints of Ti polrs in this thread have followed a similar line - Ti is fine, up until it starts getting in the way of their more valued fxns.

Seeing other people use your polr isn't really an issue in most cases, and you might even like that someone else has that area covered. I don't think there's a whole lot of hate directed at the element in the polr position, most of the time you're just blithely unaware of it and only use it in a rudimentary way when you have to. If anything, it's a blindness and you don't even know what you're missing.

Where is is? All I see is what is NOT.

But maybe it's like you've said, they just don't react like that to you. Maybe you're special.

@niffer, you might be right after all

[squark]

This is your first post, which by the way was last page :

No, this was my first post in the thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1136106

You somehow missed it when you read every page.

[LuckyOne]

No, this was my first post in the thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1136106

You somehow missed it when you read every page.

That was the first post when you at least offered original first hand experience as input on how you have not (negative again) experienced PoLR. What you described there (can't follow a linear approach etc) was already exemplified by others. But yes, you're technically right.

And by the way, that thing you're guilty of is my problem too.

Noticed how you went into explaining what is in the post? I mean it about the teaching thing, I've seen this behaviour many times from LIIs, but never LSIs.

[squark]

But yes, you're technically right.

yeah.

[LuckyOne]

I'm not big on gloating.

Your Logic is very personal, indeed.



To bring this thread back on topic: I had a SEE tell me proofreading an essay before turning it in was totally unnecessary today. That coming from a guy who argues with the grades he receives in writing every week, which are poor due to his lack of linear narrative and reasoning (his actual ideas and stories are really good, so it's a shame). I see now, after discussing it with him several times, that he just doesn't give a shit about organization in a mental sense, can't see the point in it. I guess it's never too late to break a habit, I won't be ever bothering him about it again, or losing my mind over it.

[AbZero]

I think they get annoyed by what they view to be pedantic behavior (making unnecessary/pointless corrections)

[Chae]

I think they get annoyed by what they view to be pedantic behavior (making unnecessary/pointless corrections)

Yes, you summed it up wonderfully. Because our deems it redundant, even if it is a necessary part when thinking in universal, accurate connections.