ESI-IEI Benefit Relations (ISFj & INFp)

[silke]

Some translations I've done a while ago taken from the Russian socionics discussion forums on IEI-ESI benefit relations: Benefit relations observations


George (LIE): I've met this pair before. I gathered from their phone conversation that the IEI is far from being able to give clear instructions. Many times I wanted to take over the phone myself and tell everything as it needs to be told. There is no logic in this pair (I mean strong logic). Their interactions move along without any visible results. It's something like an ethical whirlpool that just keeps spinning round and round.** Eventually the ESI feels tired and annoyed by this because she/he isn't getting any results on the suggestive function. This is all from my observations. Otherwise they're doing alright.
[** Both IEI and ESI may feel like they are running in circles without getting much done also because both are Tactical types that have trouble aligning their actions with some long-term strategy or goal to organize their lives around, unlike their duals SLE and LIE, both Strategic types.]

Baileys (ESI): I had a relationship with an IEI guy but didn't marry him. I felt like nothing was right, that in a year I'll be a widow with a criminal record. There are two female IEI in my circle: my sister and my friend. It's not easy. From both sides. Periodically we need a time-out from each other. I hurt them more often, than they hurt me.

Miracle Worker (IEI): I have a friend of type Dreiser. We constantly argue due to his throat-cut rationalism and practicality. Only a few hours ago we were arguing whether there is any use in philosophy as a science. Likewise, he reduces art and religion down to what material benefit these bring. He has a thirst for justice e.g. he has quarreled with the college dean over undeserved, in his view, scores that ruined his red diploma. He was happy that the truth has triumphed no matter at what cost. My ESI friend's crazy workaholism and meticulous work ethic are unnerving. And yes, he is very capable of grounding anything by boiling it down to its concrete benefits and rationality.

Super-Kaktus (IEI): I've used to chat with an ESI girl. It was a somewhat close friendship between us. Communication was very smooth, and over time we have became close over a number of similar interests and outlooks on life. In our conversations, my ESI friend would alternate between talking of her own alleged imperfections and the imperfections of the world, in which she was quick to become disappointed. Eventually she became disillusioned with me, and my "complaining and problems, which I simply don't want to solve once and for all" - in her words. ESIs complain, too, only they do it aggressively, rapidly switching between different subjects, something along the lines "I'm so stupid. The world is so full of stupid people in general. Now let's discuss how we could fix/destroy/reform it". She tried to keep our friendship to the very end, but then she abruptly broke it off and distanced from me so suddenly that I only saw her heels flashing, while I had cognitive dissonance and eyes the size of saucer plates from surprise.

Drakosha (IEI): I liked an ESI guy for a while. I tried to attract his attention, flirt or something like it. The main feeling I got from our interaction is reminiscent of the movie "The Taming of the Shrew". Constant attempts to discipline from ESI's end. This was expressed as jabs and digs directed at me, at some of my personal qualities. Which to me meant: "You should change yourself!" And I could try changing, but I also saw that he doesn't really need this. The ESI guy simply made these prickly comments that he threw my way that weren't telling me of anything. And I don't get why is this needed? To what purpose? There is nothing he is trying to achieve, neither is he trying to offend me. Then why are all these jabs and prodding comments needed? In the end, while I was interacting with this ESI guy, I stopped understanding what is needed and expected of me and started feeling disoriented and somewhat anxious. I felt like something is being expected of me from his end, but I was lost as to what that might be. When I try to build a relationship with someone, it is preferable that I see at least a transparent contour of what my partner wants. I can guess, but it's better and more assuring for me when I ask a direct question to receive a direct response.

Frost Mirriam (IEI): Once I have shown my ESI friend some of my creative writing - poetry written during the period of deep depression. She read it and said to me: "ew, this is so pretentious!" Since that time I don't show her my poetry anymore, and none of my other works.

Dashu (IEI): Why does everything have to be described in such terrible colors? Yes, ESIs like to control everything and everyone, and drive them under the framework of their stereotypes and notions. It is impossible to argue with them because for them there is only one correct view - their own. At the same time, it's awesome when you are pulled out of another scruff, while a swift punch to the face is delivered to anyone who has dared to encroach on ESI's "Ni treasure" (figuratively speaking). The suggestive function of IEI (Se) is always satisfied. Although problems arise, even up to scandals, when ESI tries to impose her own views. Then there's a need to keenly maneuver between subduing one's own and another's anger, while still asserting one's own opinion. In general, living together with ESI for the IEI is similar to living on a gunpowder keg that periodically releases a cloud of smoke - all in all it's not that bad.

Vitacha (IEI): ESIs support, that they provide from their 1st function Fi, is presented in such a way that it doesn't look like support to the IEI, but as, for example, a lecture on the evils of smoking. A thorough lecture, where the issue is meticulously sorted out. However, for IEIs Fi is a vital function - for them information of this kind is like a muddy current of dubious assumptions that seem to be not hinged or based on anything. Fi for ESIs is base or "background" function, so they typically don't notice how much everything that they say gets colored by it. So in a conversation between IEI and ESI, what the IEI hears from the ESI is this stream of seemingly baseless information that doesn't fit with how the IEI understands things to be and deals with people and relationships, including IEI's relationship with the ESI. More so, ESIs aren't EIIs - the later you can at least ignore or send somewhere far away, while the ESI will nitpick and watch carefully that you don't slip away from her control. This sense of constant -Fi pressuring and control is very aggravating in itself to the IEI.

Nataly (IEI): I've been through these relations, married to an ESI man for 10 years. These relations were difficult for me for several reasons:
1) Total control over my actions and some minor things. For example, coming back from work 20 minutes late was met with stern "onslaught" to the point that it was impossible for me to drop by a cafe with a friend after work.
2) All my friends were considered to be almost like enemies - he needed all of my efforts, so what right did I have to get distracted away from him by my friends? As a result I started losing my friendships.
3) Harsh pressuring on the topics of: "Why so proud amidst your poverty" or "Why are you learning a foreign language? Instead of occupying with this nonsense you should come up with something that could actually earn some money."
4) In respect to his friends: "You are not a person of our circle, thus don't try to delve into matters that don't concern you." And in general: "I don't trust you."
5) His policy regarding our relationship: "How about you do your thing, and I'll do mine. "Us" is only for bed."
6) If I had some problems and referred to him for help and moral support, this would be his response: "First of all understand that these are your problems, so don't you dare to shout and cry in front of me, because I may not have patience with your hysterics and will "forcefully" put an end to them. When you have calmed down, I will tell you how you should behave to not get yourself into such stupid situations in the future."
Needless to say, after 10 years of such treatment my self-esteem has dropped to nothing. If you are ready to spend your life discussing your emotions without any emotion, if you consider that the closeness and intimacy of your relationships with your husband should be strictly regulated and "dosed", if you consider that everything you do should earn money or at least bring some material result, then this is the relationship for you.
What is also interesting is that as many new methods and technologies as the IEI offers to the ESI, the ESI doesn't appreciate and doesn't accept advice coming from such a hapless in ESI's eyes person. The ESI wants you to implement and work through all these technologies and methods yourself rather than simply give advice.
S-C: I have heard of, and observed myself, the following scenario: The benefactor finds a beneficiary. For example, an ESI in search of a life partner and without experience of dual relations finds an IEI, who is nice, feminine, emotionally stable, soulful and sincere, fitting of the image of what the ESI appreciates in people. The IEI reacts to the ESI positively - the ESI with his/her creative volitional sensing and rationality fits the IEI's ideal of what "a real man/woman" should be like. The IEI seems to ESI rather helpless, but if the ESI is intellectually inclined, they get drawn into various interesting conversations. Thus a relationship develops between them. Over time, ESI's ignoring or limiting Fe wears out IEI's strong creative Fe function. Their interaction proceeds more harmoniously on sensing-intuition related topics, rather than topics pertaining to logic-ethics. Trying to sort out logic-ethics will make it clear to both of them that these relations are far from their ideal and prompt them to distance.

Cassiopea (IEI): The relationship that I have with my ESI husband is terrible. It will be good for a couple of days, then he begins digging in and nitpicking me. He criticizes and tries to re-educate me. He is constantly dissatisfied by something, and teaches, teaches, teaches ... And this feeling that I'm so horrible while he's so good, that I won't make it without him and will only be able to find some alcoholic (he doesn't drink or smoke) - this feeling he has beaten into me so deeply that it became my neurotic complex. I look like a cornered animal who only expects another educational "blow" from him. But I don't want to quarrel, I want to believe that everything will be okay, that things will get better, that we will find a compromise, and I concede ... and in the end I feel like I am losing myself. I send him away and distance, but I'll still feel guilty, and after a couple of days I will forget everything and call him again ... and then everything starts again. Yes, he really is a very good person - kind, caring, loves children, loyal ... but I'm just not his ideal. And in my mind I know that I will never be, but in my heart I still want to believe that things will get better ...

Doverchivaya (IEI): With ESIs good relations develop only when we see each other infrequently. Seeing and speaking to each other often, with their endless dissatisfaction and incontestable demands, is very difficult and requires a lot of patience. All the time you feel like you owe something, like you're obliged - and this is awful, brrr! Cassiopea, to deal with your ESI husband's criticisms try to abstract away and not take it personally. Let him nag and criticize the air around himself, meanwhile you can think of something else. Sooner or later he'll get tired of it. Maybe he is a wonderful person, but do you really need to be in a family where you're hiding in corners and slowly going crazy?

Tori25 (ESI): Cassiopea, these relations will not change. You are different. Sorry if I'm very categorical, but your ESI husband will continue this relationship until the very last. He's unlikely to break it off himself, and eventually both of you will start to hate one another. You have to decide this for yourself. Adapting and agreeing with everything won't work. You will accumulate a lot of irritation that will pour out into angry outbursts. You'll feel yourself a cornered animal, that is incapable of anything, that can't do anything right, whose hands grow from the wrong place and whose head isn't working properly. It's awful. Along with this, you'll continue seeing your ESI husband as a good person. Over time, this will cause an enormous loss of self-esteem. You'll stop liking yourself, become closed off, neurotic and hysterical. So my advice to you, if you don't want to lose yourself, if you want to enjoy your life, the sun and fresh breeze outside, and notice the smiles of the people and respond to them without fear - you need to leave. Believe me, no matter how you want to change something in your relationship with him - everything will change for exactly that amount of time, until there is another "episode" and he will immediately forgets his previous promises. Because you cannot change another person's character. It is already formed, a certain picture of the world is already imprinted, both for you and for him. And they are very different pictures. And nothing can change this.

Kobra (IEI): My mother is of type ESI. Intellectually our relations are very good, but in everything else ... she often feels that I am not sensitive enough** and not responsive enough towards her, while I don't understand why she cannot tell this to me in a way that isn't hurtful to me, but then, I don't always interpret what she says in the way that she has meant it. I don't feel supported by her. Very often her words painfully sting me. It turns out that I'm always wrong, and by this I feel emotionally pressured and suppressed by her, while my reaction to her emotional pressuring is often upsetting to her.
[**Problematic in IEI-ESI relations is that fact that IEI's Fe falls on ESI's ignoring or limiting function. Thus all the tenderness, love, and affection that IEIs express through creative Fe is simply left out of ESI's perception - it is unintentionally ignored by them. Thus, ESIs may see IEIs as being insensitive, not warm and kind enough, even wicked, due to peculiarities of ESI's own TIM model that completely ignores IEI's ethical expression.]

scary_miracle (IEI): My type is IEI, my mom is of type ESI. On the positive side, I have learned from her, and finally understood for myself, that it's better to do some things right now, so that they don't hang over my head later. I became more thrifty and economical, started paying more attention to the material quality of things that I buy, try to manage my budget and not overspend. About the negatives: I am tired of her saying: "Attitude/relation is shown by actions, not by words." Sometimes I just want for someone to love me and need me as I am, to let me know that it will really suck for them to be without me. I cannot interpret material care as a proof of love. When we quarrel, several times I've caught myself saying, "I understand now - what you really need is a housekeeper and a rote memorizer, but what's inside me, what's in my soul, you care nothing of it!" Sometimes she will say something as a joke and it will sound offensive and crudish to me. I feel like she is killing my personality. She would say things like "it would have been good to do this" or "it would be good to think like that" and then later "I didn't force you to do anything! Don't you have your own head on the shoulders?" And make of this whatever you wish ...**
Additionally, my style in clothing is also being slowly destroyed, and again only from the 'best intentions': "You don't understand anything, you don't have your own style, I will teach you how to dress." Then, there are reprimands from my ESI mother regarding me being too dreamy and impractical: "Enough flying in the clouds, come down to earth!" - what does she care if I spend some time in contemplation? Eventually, an understanding and a decision on what needs to be done finally hits me, but no, "come down now!". As a result, I don't want to tell her anything of my future plans and dreams. As soon as I begin sharing, instead of catching the main idea, the spirit of it, my ESI mother begins to analyze and dissect it, and point out how it's lacking and unrealizable. Yes, I know myself that my plans are a bit "raw" and need further work, but try to understand the main point, the "salt" of it - why does she have such a desire to cut them down right away? After our quarrels she likes to moralize with implicit hints at how she is so good, so right, so correct, so patient, etc. -sigh- right now we coexist somehow, but I wouldn't call this living.
[** The beneficiary is often hyper-attentive to benefactor's wishes and wants, which the beneficiary subconsciously interprets as calls to realize them. The benefactor is often surprised after the fact, since the benefactor has not directly told or forced the beneficiary to do anything.]

Ensoleiller (IEI): +1 scary_miracle, some these positives and negatives were similar to my relationship with my ESI mother. What gets to me in these relations is that I understand her, and I'm willing to go for a compromise, because I love her and am grateful for everything that she does. But from her side it's like a blank wall. There is no understanding - only a total unwillingness to understand. And I am lost as to why??** I'm not talking about support - just for her to stop criticizing and inserting sticks into my wheels. Latest surprise: I opened up my own small business. My mother, without asking me a single question, went to a LIE girl who is 5 years younger than me (19 and 24) but whom she considers to be "serious", and started asking her questions: what am I doing? am I acting right towards other people? is there something that I'm doing wrong? Only later did she come talk to me. For me this was a slap on the face, considering that this LIE girl has set me up and let me down before and later came to ask for my forgiveness. My mother's actions to me constitute a betrayal by the person closest to me. That she admires this girl and sets her as an example for me ... even knowing about socionics such development in our relationship was painful for me to accept.
[** These are classical benefit relations where the beneficiary doesn't feel like the benefactor hears her: IEI's creative function falls on ignoring aka limiting function of ESI, thus what the IEI tries to convey by creative function simply gets ignored by the ESI and the IEI feels like the ESI doesn't hear, doesn't understand.]
Frost Mirriam (IEI): My mom is also ESI - and this is brutal. We can co-exist normally only if we're separated by X number of kilometers. When we live together we quarrel every day. She irritates me by her grounded sarcastic rationalism, that sometimes she takes to the point of absurdity. Her attempts to pressure me drive me mad. She also regularly reads me morals, saying that I am lazy, that I don't do anything - by this she tries to give me "a Se kick", to somehow stimulate me to frantic activity. She compares me to my peers who are more successful in her opinion. If something is forbidden, she starts to carefully explain why it is so, and usually it boils down to "because the current of things is very bad, and doing anything is irrational", instead of just saying "no" in such a way that I would have no further questions. When I'm getting ready to leave the house, every 5 minutes I am told how much time is left and hurried up (weak intuition). In general, constant hurrying is the favorite activity of both my ESI friend and my ESI mother. They also have a similar, and very specific, sense of humor.

Naivety (IEI): Ok, so I want to cook something or do something useful around the house. I ask my ESI mother a specific question and instead of receiving a concrete answer I get a half an hour long lecture where the total useful information for me is "I don't know, I use ingredients by the eye". After this I start inquiring about approximate portions and common methods. While I'm trying to get the answer that I need, my nerves get seriously tested, and I feel that I should run away, somewhere deep into the forest, before all of this ends with me becoming hysterical. And then I get criticized that I didn't do something well or that I took too long to do it. For conversation my ESI mother has entire two topics: education and faults of the younger generation. ESIs also don't listen! They ask something, but then proceed to do things their own way. Why ask in the first place? One day I return from a trip and my mom asks me whether to prepare some food for me. I say "no thanks" that I bought some products on the way back and I'll cook something myself. Then I go to another room to unpack my bags. Suddenly I hear sounds coming from the kitchen. I look and there is my mother heating the milk that I was saving for an omelette. This is what I don't understand: why do something when you were told that it's not needed to be done? Ok, so my mom is only trying to help me, right? Everything is good and fine. Only within half an hour I get a lecture from her about how lazy I am, how I cannot plan anything, such that she always has to help me and do things for me.** Sorry for the morning outcry!
[** The benefactor is perceptive of beneficiary's insufficient dual-seeking function. In this case, the ESI mother feels her IEI daughter's weakness in Te - poor ability to rationally organize her activities and plan her actions - and tries to help her prepare a meal at the same time criticizing her for this perceived flaw, while the IEI daughter does not understand why she's doing this.]

gala83 (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - I wouldn't wish this upon anyone! Dreiser will do everything for the good of her children: will make decisions for them, give them the magical "Se kick in the behind", can even materially provide for them at the beginning - just do as you're being told, go to school, get a degree in finance, every day clean and organize your home, lead a budget, be a rational type, be an LSE, be anyone but yourself. Everything good that there is in the IEI the ESI simply doesn't notice. She attempts to remake the IEI's personality, to turn the IEI inside out. Meanwhile, my LSE sister would be set as an example for me. Now I work in an office. I feel unhappy, inhibited and suppressed, my life feels empty. The expression on my face most of the time is unemotional, serious, and focused. I tried talking with my mother, telling her that I'm not living my life - her reply was: "Everyone lives this way, and nothing terrible happens to them." Then once again I begin to see that my own mother is not my friend but an enemy. She thinks that I am rude, that I have poor character, that I'm too callous and insensitive. But she cannot imagine how year after year I had to break myself to fit into her ideal image of a daughter. It's very difficult to not be yourself, to have to wear a mask day after day. I've taken up painting. She said go ahead, paint, no one is stopping you, but do it on your free time as a hobby. When I create something exceptionally beautiful and it is admired and asked for by my friends - and then I feel truly happy!!! But later, ESI's 'program' takes over again and things become grey, lifeless, materially shallow, without any deep meaning or purpose.
Luiren (SLE): On topic, I've watched two of these benefit pairs over twenty long years. One was of ESI mother and IEI daughter. Vivid relations in all their glory, but in this case I felt somewhat sorry for the ESI because any of her attempts to influence the IEI during the period of IEI's creative crisis (which was permanent btw) turned into Hysterics with a capital letter H. I have actually understood that the IEI was waiting for the SLE's "face->table -- end of kitty" reaction, while what she got from her ESI mother was a couple of scathing, caustic remarks, which would leave her feeling as if she was just spit at. And from this she would become hysterical and try to run away into the sunset.
In these relations it's crucial to have a wish to adapt and to try to understand what the other party means in a slightly different interpretation. ESI's can be explained what they're doing wrong, and adequate persons of this type will even try to change, fix, and correct things. The main thing is to remember that you should 1) simply tell the ESI of your experiences and your feelings 2) be ready to receive and accept their response. Communicate with them over feelings. As your dual I know this quite well. Often IEIs will drive themselves into a corner and start over-reacting to ESI's every word. This is generally bad, especially with ESIs because it drives them into stupor. They will start looking for causes of such a reaction in themselves, in you, in everything around them, and will utterly exhaust themselves (and you) with this.
The second example I observed was of IEI-ESI sisters, where the IEI was the older of the two. An exemplar of this type of which one can tell legends of the "Spherical IEI in a Vacuum". The ESI is now a serious lady, but previously she was a boisterous youngster who used to prod and provoke the IEI when they were kids. After such provocations, the IEI would go complain to their mother and the ESI would get punished, which she was convinced was injustice, proceed to feel wronged and offended, and repeat the same. Now every word that comes from the ESI from "Clean the dishes!" to "Get a job, stupid!" brings the IEI to tears. While I, as an outside observer, couldn't understand what was happening. Talking later to the IEI I found out that she simply cannot refuse the ESI, thus she feels like she is being used, and this is making her very upset and driving her crazy. While the ESI, as an ethical type, cannot remain silent while she's being accused of something she hasn't done and is not guilty of in her view.
Actually, I came across quite adequate examples of type Dreiser. Ready to listen, to establish contact. But it would all come apart after an emotional explosion. As a logical type, this is hard for me to understand. Just talk more with your significant other about your experiences. And turn a deaf ear when he tries to sort out where to place blame. It's just ... their type. And remember, you aren't to blame for all these "sins". I myself live very well in supervision relations with Dreiser. Yes, sometimes they are dense, but you have to speak to them. They don't understand hysterics. At all. With love, your dual.

-- from VK discussions: https://vk.com/topic-38580757_26674174 Both IEI and ESI are introverts, so most likely they will quietly sit together somewhere, like a cafe, and talk, rather than visit places with large crowds of people. Each of them has their own "inner world", which is quite sufficient for both of them. After getting acquainted, the IEI wins over the trust of the Guardian by his sincerity and his bright ideas and fantasies. The IEI is able to relax the ESI's state of internal control and alleviate ESI's tension and stress with affection and tenderness. With him one can dream, talk about ideals, about the eternal and the bright. However, beyond some point the ESI ceases to understand what the IEI is trying to tell him. IEI's abstract worlds stop being of interest to the ESI, causing only irritation. Problems also arise over some measure of impracticality and carelessness of the IEI. Trying to make Esenin follow some rules the ESI may be faced with a sharp rebuff: "Don't tell me how to live!" In general, IEIs respond positively to attempts to organize them and give them structure, but the main thing is to not overdo it, which is where the ESI can overstep certain limits causing irritation and frustration for the IEI. ESIs themselves like having control over the situation, but only as long as the ESI doesn't find him/herself doing everything for his or her partner. In general these are good relations. Conflicts don't come by frequently. Appreciate your IEIs and they will reply with an incorruptible and pure love.