Originally Posted by
silke
Some translations I've done a while ago taken from the Russian socionics discussion forums on IEI-ESI benefit relations:
George (LIE): I've met this pair before. From their phone conversation, I understood that IEI is far from being able to provide clear instructions. Many times I wanted to take the phone myself and tell everything as it should be told. There is no logic in this pair (I mean strong logic). Their interaction and conversations move along without any visible result. It's something like an ethical whirlpool that just keeps spinning round and round. Eventually ESI feels tired and annoyed by this because she/he isn't seeing any results on his suggestive function. This is all from my observations. Otherwise they're doing alright.
Baileys (ESI): I had a relationship with an IEI guy but didn't marry him. I felt like nothing was right, that in a year I'll be a widow with a criminal record. There are two IEI girls in my circle: my sister and my friend. It's not easy. From both sides. Periodically we need a "time-out" from our relationship. I hurt them more often than they hurt me.
Miracle Worker (IEI): I have a friend of type Dreiser. We constantly argue due to his throat-cut rationalism and practicality. Only a few hours ago we were arguing whether there is any use in philosophy as a science. Likewise, he reduces art and religion down to what material benefit they bring. He has a thirst for justice e.g. quarreled with the Dean over undeserved, in his view, scores that ruined his red diploma. He was happy that the truth has triumphed no matter at what cost. His crazy workaholism and meticulous work ethic are unnerving. And yes, he is very capable of grounding anything by boiling it down to its concrete benefits and rationality.
Super-Kaktus (IEI): I've chatted with this one ESI girl, it was to a degree a close friendship between us. Communication was very smooth, we intersected over a number of similar interests and views on life. She would vacillate between her own alleged imperfections and the imperfections of the world, in which she would quickly become disillusioned. Eventually she became disillusioned with me, and my "complaining and problems, which I don't want to solve once and for all". Although ESIs complain also, only they do it aggressively and with switching over between different subjects, something along the lines "I'm so stupid, the world is so full of stupid people in general - now let's discuss how we could fix/destroy/reform it". I understand that she tried to keep close to the end, then she broke off and distanced so suddenly that I only saw her heels flashing, while I had cognitive dissonance and the eyes the size of the saucer plates.
Nataly (IEI): I've been through these relations, married to an ESI man for 10 years. These relations were difficult for me for several reasons:
1) Total control over my actions and some minor things. For example, coming back from work 20 minutes late was met with stern "onslaught" to the point that it was impossible for me to stop by a cafe with a friend after work.
2) All my friends were considered to be almost like enemies - he needed all of my efforts, so what right did I have to get distracted away from him by my friends? As a result I started losing my friendships.
3) Harsh pressuring on the topics of: "Why so proud amidst your poverty" or "Why are you learning a foreign language? Instead of occupying with this nonsense you should come up with something that could actually earn some money."
4) In respect to his friends: "You are not a person of our circle, thus don't try to delve into matters that don't concern you." And in general: "I don't trust you."
5) His policy regarding our relationship: "How about you do your thing, and I'll do mine. "Us" is only for bed."
6) If I had some problems and referred to him for help and moral support, this would be his response: "First of all understand that these are your problems, so don't you dare to shout and cry in front of me, because I may not have patience with your hysterics and will "forcefully" put an end to them. When you have calmed down, I will tell you how you should behave to not get yourself into such stupid situations in the future."
Needless to say, after 10 years of such treatment my self-esteem has dropped to nothing. If you are ready to spend your life discussing your emotions without any emotion, if you consider that the closeness and intimacy of your relationships with your husband should be strictly regulated and "dosed", if you consider that everything you do should earn money or at least bring some material output, then this is the relationship for you. What's interesting is that as many new methods and technologies as the IEI offers to the ESI, the ESI doesn't appreciate them and doesn't accept advice coming from such a hapless in his or her eyes person. The ESI wants you to work through all these technologies and methods yourself.
Drakosha (IEI): I liked an ESI guy for a while. I tried to attract his attention, flirt or something like it. The main feeling I got from this interaction is reminiscent of the movie "The Taming of the Shrew". Constant attempts to discipline. This was expressed by the way of jabs and digs pointed at me, or some of my personal qualities. Which to me meant: "you should change yourself". And I could try changing, but I also see that he doesn't really need this. There simply are these prickly comments he throws my way that aren't telling of anything. And I don't get why is this needed? for what purpose? There is nothing he is trying to achieve, neither is he trying to offend me. Then why are such comments needed? So while I was interacting with this ESI guy, I stopped understanding what is needed and expected of me and started feeling disoriented and somewhat anxious. I felt like something is being expected of me from his end, but I was lost as to what that might be ... When I try to build a relationship with someone, it is preferable that I see at least a transparent contour of what my partner wants. I can guess, but it's better and more assuring for me when I can ask a direct question and receive a direct answer.
S-C: I've often heard of and observed the following scenario: The benefactor finds a beneficiary. For example, an ESI in search of a life partner and without experience of dual relations finds an IEI, who is nice, feminine, emotionally stable, soulful and sincere, fitting of the image of what the ESI appreciates in people. The IEI reacts to the ESI positively - the ESI with his volitional creative sensing and rationality fits IEI's ideal of a "real man". The IEI seems to ESI rather helpless, but if the ESI is also intellectually inclined, they become drawn into various interesting conversations. Thus their relations begin. With time, the ESI's ignoring or limiting Fe will wear out the IEI's strong creative Fe function. Their interaction is more harmonious over sensing-intuitive than over logic-ethics. Trying to sort out logic-ethics will make it clear to both of them that these relations are far from their ideal and encourage them to separate.
Vitacha (IEI): ESI provides support from base Fi. However, it is presented in a way that doesn't look like support to the IEI, but as, for example, a lecture on the evils of smoking. A thorough lecture, where the issue is meticulously sorted out. However, Fi for IEIs is a vital function - for them this kind of information is a like a muddy current of assumptions - without clearly structured Ti this murky inflow coming from Dreiser seems not hinged on anything. For ESIs, Fi is base or "background" function; they don't notice how much everything that they say is tied to it. So what the IEI hears from the ESI is this constant stream of some useless information. Useless because it doesn't fit, doesn't match with how the IEI views and deals with people and their behavior, and his or her relationship with the ESI. More so, ESIs aren't EIIs - the later you can at least ignore or send somewhere far away, while the ESI will press on and watch carefully that you won't slip away. This constant -Fi pressuring is very aggravating in itself.
Cassiopea (IEI): The relationship that I have with my ESI husband is terrible. It will be good for a couple of days, and then he begins digging in and nitpicking on me. He criticizes and tries to re-educate me. He is constantly dissatisfied by something, and teaches, teaches, teaches ... And this feeling that I'm so horrible, while he's so good, that I won't make it without him, and will only be able to find some alcoholic (he doesn't drink or smoke). He's beaten this feeling so deeply into me that it became a complex. I look like a cornered animal who only expects another educational "discharge" from him. But I don't want to quarrel, I want to believe that everything will be okay, that things will get better, that we will find a compromise, and I concede ... and in the end I feel like I am losing myself. I send him away and distance, but I'll still feel guilty, and after a couple of days I will forget everything and call him again ... and then everything will start again. Yes, he really is a very good person, kind, caring, loves children, loyal ... but I'm just not his ideal. In my mind I know I will never be, but in my heart I still want to believe ...
Doverchivaya (IEI): With Dreisers good relations develop only when we see each other infrequently. Seeing one another too often, with their endless dissatisfaction and incontestable demands, is very difficult and requires a lot of patience. All the time you feel like you owe something, like you're obliged - and this is awful, brr! Cassiopea, to deal with his criticisms try to abstract away and not take it personally. Let him nag and criticize the air around himself, meanwhile you can think of something else. Sooner or later he'll get tired of it. May be he is a wonderful person, but do you really need to be in a family where you're hiding in corners and slowly going crazy?
Tori25 (ESI): Cassiopea, these relations will not change. You are different. Sorry if I'm very categorical, but your Dreiser will continue this relationship until the very last. He's unlikely to break them up himself, and eventually both of you will start to hate each another. You have to decide this for yourself. Adapting and agreeing with everything won't work. You will accumulate a lot of irritation that will translate into angry splashes. You'll feel yourself a cornered animal, that is incapable of anything, that can't do anything right, whose hands grow from the wrong place and whose head is not working properly. It's awful. Along with this, you'll continue seeing him as a good person. Over time, this will cause an enormous loss of self-esteem. You'll stop liking yourself, become closed off, neurotic and hysterical. So my advice to you, if you don't want to lose yourself, if you want to enjoy your life, the sun and fresh wind outside, and notice the smiles of the people and respond to them without fear - you need to leave. Believe me, no matter how you want to change something in your relationship with him - everything will change for exactly that amount of time, until there is another "episode" and he will immediately forgets his previous promises. Because you cannot change a person's character. It is already formed, a certain picture of the world is already imprinted, both for you and for him. And they are very different pictures. And nothing can be done about this.
Frost Mirriam (IEI): Once I have shown my ESI friend some of my creative writing - poetry written during the period of deep depression. She read it and said to me: "ew, this is so pretentious!" Since that time I don't show her my poetry anymore, and none of my other works.
Kobra (IEI): My mother is of type ESI. Intellectually our relations are very good. But in everything else ... she often feels that I am not sensitive and responsive enough towards her, while I don't understand why she cannot tell this to me in a way that isn't hurtful, but then, I don't always interpret what she says in the way that she means it. I don't feel supported by her. Very often her words sting me, it turns out that I'm always in the wrong, by this I feel emotionally pressured and suppressed by her. My counter-reaction to this emotional pressure is often offensive to her.
scary_miracle (IEI): My type is IEI, my mom is of type ESI. On the positive side, from her I learned and finally understood that it's better to do some things right now, so that they don't hang over my head later. I became more thrifty and economical, started paying more attention to the quality of things I purchase, try to manage my budget and not overspend. About the negatives: I am tired of her saying "Attitude/relation is shown by actions, not by words." Sometimes I just want for someone to love me and need me as I am, to let me know that it will really suck without me. I cannot interpret material care as a proof of love. When we quarrel, several times I've caught myself saying, "I understand now - what you really need is a housekeeper and a rote memorizer, but what's inside me, what's in my soul, you care nothing of it!" Sometimes she will say something as a joke and it will sound offensive to me. I feel like she is killing my personality. She would say things like "it would have been good to do this" or "it would be good to think like that" and then later "I didn't force you to do anything! Don't you have your own head on the shoulders?" And make of this whatever you wish ... Additionally, my style in clothing is also being slowly destroyed, and again only with the "best intentions": "You don't understand anything, you don't have your own style, I will teach you how to dress ..." Then there are reprimands in being too dreamy and frivolous: "Enough flying in the clouds, come down to earth!" What does she care if I spend some time thinking? At some point, an understand and the decision on what needs to be done hits me ... but no, "come down now!". As a consequence, I don't want to tell her anything of my future plans and dreams. As soon as I begin sharing, instead of catching the main idea, the spirit of it, my ESI mother begins to analyze and dissect, to point out how it's inadequate and unrealizable. Yes, I know myself that my plans are a bit "raw", that they need further work, but understand the main point, the "salt" of it - why is there such a need to cut it down right away? After our quarrels she likes to moralize, where there are implicit hints at how she is so good, so right, so correct, so patient, etc. Right now we coexist somehow, I wouldn't call this living.
Ensoleiller (IEI): +1 scary_miracle, some these positives and negatives were similar to my relationship with my ESI mother. What gets to me in these relations is that I understand her, and I'm willing to go for a compromise, because I love her and am grateful for everything that she does. But from her side it's like a blank wall. There is no understanding - only a total unwillingness to understand. And I am lost as to why??* I'm not talking about support, just for her to stop criticizing and inserting sticks in my wheels. Latest surprise: I opened up my own small business. My mother, without asking me anything, went to a LIE girl who is 5 years younger than me (24 and 19) but whom she considers to be "serious", and started asking her questions: what am I doing? am I acting right towards other people? is there something that I'm doing wrong? Only later did she come to talk to me. For me this was a slap on the face, considering that this LIE girl has set me up once and later came to ask me for forgiveness. My mother's actions constituted a betrayal of a person closest to me. That she admires this girl and sets her as an example for me ... even knowing about socionics such a "set up" was painful for me to accept.
[* These are classical benefit relations where the beneficiary doesn't feel like the benefactor hears her: IEI's creative function falls on ignoring/limiting function of ESI, thus what the IEI tries to convey with creative function simply gets ignored.]
Frost Mirriam (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - and this is brutal. We can co-exist normally only if we're separated by X number of kilometers. When we live together we quarrel every day. She irritates me by her grounded, sarcastic rationalism, that sometimes she drives to the point of absurdity. Her attempts to pressure me drive me mad. She also regularly reads me morals, says that I am lazy, that I don't do anything - by this she tries to give me "a kick", to somehow stimulate me to frantic activity. Compares me to my peers who have been more successful, in her opinion. If something is forbidden, she starts to carefully explain why it is so, and usually it boils down to "because our state of things is very bad, and doing anything is irrational", instead of just saying "no" in a way that I would have no further questions. If I'm going somewhere, every 5 minutes I am told how much time is left and hurried. In general, constant hurrying - is the favorite theme of both my ESI friend and my ESI mother. They also have a similar and very specific sense of humor.
Naivety (IEI): Ok, so I want to cook something or do something useful around the house. I ask my ESI mother a concrete question and instead of receiving a concrete answer I get half an hour long lecture where the total useful information for me is "I don't know, I use ingredients by the eye". After this I start inquiring about approximate portions and common methods. While I'm trying to get the answer that I need, my nerves get seriously tested, and I feel that I should run away, somewhere deep into the forest, before all of this ends with me breaking into hysterics. And then I get criticized that I didn't do something well or that I took too long. For conversation there are two topics: education and faults of the younger generation. Dreisers also don't listen! They ask something then do things their own way. Then why ask in the first place? One day I come back from a trip, mom asks me whether to prepare something for me, I say no thanks I'll cook something myself, bought some products along the way. Then I go to unpack my bags and hear some sounds in the kitchen. I look and there is my mother heating the milk that was saving for the omelette. This is what I don't understand, why do something when you were being told that it's not needed? Ok, so she is trying to help me. Everything is good and fine. Only within half an hour I hear a lecture from her about how I am lazy, how I can't plan anything such that she always has to help me and do things for me.* Sorry for the morning outcry!
gala83 (IEI): My mom is also Dreiser - I wouldn't wish this upon anyone! Dreiser will do everything for the good of her children: will make decisions for them, give them the magical "kick in the behind", can even materially provide for them at the beginning - just do as you're being told, go to school, get a degree in finance, every day clean and organize your home, lead a budget, be a rational type, be an LSE, be anyone but yourself. Everything good that there is in the IEI the ESI simply doesn't notice. She attempts to remake the IEI's personality, to turn the IEI inside out, meanwhile my LSE sister would be set as an example for how I should be like. Now I work in an office. I feel unhappy, inhibited and suppressed, my life feels empty. The expression on my face most of the time is unemotional, serious, focused. I tried talking with my mother, telling her that I'm not living my life - her reply was: "Everyone lives this way, nothing happens to them." Then once again I've seen that my own mother is not my friend but an enemy. She thinks that I am rude, that I have a poor character, that I'm too callous and insensitive. But she cannot imagine how year after year I had to break myself to fit into her ideal image of a daughter. It's very difficult to not be yourself, to have to wear a mask day after day. I've taken up painting. She said go ahead, paint, no one is stopping you, but on your free time, as a hobby. When I create something exceptionally beautiful and it is admired and asked for by my friends - and then I feel truly happy!!! But later the Dreiser's program takes over again and things become grey, lifeless, materially shallow, without any deep meaning or purpose.
ESI-IEI Benefit Relations (ISFj & INFp)
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(as per tcaudilllg)
We're both friendly and neutral to each other, but very distant at the same time, a bit aloof. I'm not seeing any sort of beneficience going on. NOT my type of person, but I'm sure she feels the same.
I'm also confused as to what @
No, look, it's not that dramatic, you just need a strong personality to handle IEI. If you're strong-willed, assertive and don't put up with crap (and you seem exactly like that), there shouldn't be any problems. When the guys are like that I'm perfectly capable of having a normal relationship. Besides, if the guy is in his 30's I'm sure he matured at least some.
