True, and it may be my personal preference. I'm just saying I found their material confusing for the most part. It didn't advance my knowledge.Originally Posted by sbbds
I'm sure it looks legit because there is no room for alternative views.
True, and it may be my personal preference. I'm just saying I found their material confusing for the most part. It didn't advance my knowledge.
I'm sure it looks legit because there is no room for alternative views.
If you do find any examples later and feel up to it I’d be interested in knowing @COOL AND MANLY
You shouldn't.
Lol, you are not going to give up are you?On sociotype.com, some of what is written is copy and pasted by forefront researchers. For example, the subtype descriptions come from Meged, Ovcharov, and Gulenko's work here (http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Meged-Ovcharov). But you're right in saying that some of it is simply RSV3's opinion. I wasn't able to find to find a direct quote from a forefront theorist saying that Te users evaluate people with the same criteria as things, nor could I find one for the Ni and experience comment, but these seem to be direct logical consequences of other aspects of the type.
It seems like weak Fi. Not Fe. I'm not sure how you reached to the conclusion that this is Fe role. Don't tell me it could be either. I'm going to fucking kill you, buddy.For example, PoLR Fe cares little about being liked or social norms and will thus say things (perhaps sarcastic) that others may not find appropriate. This is mentioned in the ENTj descriptions, actually, even without Fe PoLR:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...NTj-by-Beskova
I would assume that Fe PoLR would be even harsher in situations where the individual is comfortable. I know I am.
It's obvious you made your mind. I haven't looked at MBTI description for years. I'm not interested in it. I made my argument, and I will leave it at that.With the Ni and experience comment, I know that it's a frequent note on MBTI forums, but since the function descriptions are different, it can't be universalized. However, I don't think it to be very unlikely based on my prior reasoning.
Don't worry about it. If we can't account for being wrong we can't learn anything new. If you are sure about your type that is enough for me.Personally, I think a good case can be made for either INTx for Near and L at this point. I'll read through the leading theorists' descriptions more carefully and then come back with a more "objective" analysis, so that we can be consistent. I may also reanalyze my own sociotype so as to not fool myself into being incorrect. I'm fairly certain I value SeFi over FeSi, which is the main reason why I went with ILI over LII, but I'll look again so as to, once again, be more "objective".
This question is above my pay grade.Another issue I have, though, is the same issue that occurs in MBTI: the differences between holistic descriptions and function-based descriptions. I think the problem is fairly straightforward - which should take precedence and why? They are two completely different perspectives on the same system and they need not agree since probable emergent phenomena from a bottom-up approach can be empirically verified with a top-down approach. In that case, I would assume that a top-down approach would be more accurate, but it would also be less consistent with the theory since we can't associate perceivable traits with particular functions without a massive database of impressions.
I don't know what's going on in an INTp's or an ENTj's head, so if you , as an ILI, think that playing games like that there is nothing I can say against it.
ok cool(...) I would still disagree with your typing of Lelouch, though.
The TV-Series Hannibal has Hannibal als ILI and Will Graham as IEI. (The Ni "mumbo jumbo" is a trademark of the show)I can't comment on what you see or don't see. How would you envision an Ni-dom?
Another (and for this case better example) is David Lieberman in Marvel's The Punisher TV-Series. David is a former NSA analyst who chose to do "the right thing" and published secret documents. Corrupt individuals int the FBI found out and tried to kill him. He survived and went into hiding. He's incredibly smart but needs someone who can execute his plans - so Frank (Punisher, SLE) needs to help him.
(continue at *)
Nah I'll strike that out (in my blog entry). That's bs on my part.So do you think that Light does have a clear set of visions?
*Light on the other hand does is not as dependent on Se from another person as David is. Light wants to enforce a system of justice for a better society, while David was driven by his personal morals. If Light's Dual is SEE then this would cause him a lot of problems since Ti-Polr is the enemy of stability - which in my view is what Light attempts to create.In which case, what's your case against Ni dom?
I read is biography and for a while I was pretty sure he's LIE. I question that, now.I agree with your Elon Musk critique, though. I've never found him to be as focused as others make him out to be. I type him as I/E NTP in MBTI for this very reason. Probably alpha NT in socionics due to the childishness like you said. I brought him up because the consensus seems to be that he's Ni ego, notably LIE.
LSIs don't like improvising due to Ne-Polr. Being prepared with alternative plans (compare to Dexter) is the best defense against unforseen events ans problems.Rationale? 3 or 4D Ne coupled with rational tendencies seems to be the perfect combination for contingency planning since it's all about seeing alternative possibilities and mitigating their harms. Edit: not having strong Ne seems to put you at a severe disadvantage in this regard. Not that it's impossible to contingency plan otherwise, but that the essence of contingency planning requires a skill that you're not good at.
Thanks, too. Whether you ILI or LSI - I respect your opinion either way.I was initially thinking the same, but I'm not completely closing off the idea. But, of course, ignoring and PoLR can look similar. I'm inclined to think that LSI is the most likely possibility for Light now due to the fact that Light is more likely logical than ethical based on his particular skillset. That and your and others' arguments. Thanks.
sorry, the link does not work for me (shows no specific line) (:EDIT: Reading through the ENTj descriptions, I actually found this quote:
by Filatova http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ion-(Filatova)
Not necessarily a cat and mouse game but a game nonetheless.
I've thought about it some more, and while the argument for L as ILI seems more plausible to me now, the demand for precision, consistency, and too much information still leads me to think the most plausible option is LII probably with Ne subtype. Most of the ideas seem to be based on high level descriptions of ILIs (critic, depressed, melancholic), though I think that he cognitively values Ti and Ne. EDIT: I realize that this understanding is incorrect, now. Demand for facts in all circumstances is Te valuing and precision/detail orientation is Ni in this case rather than Ti. His style is to deeply scrutinize evidence, looking for irregular patterns and then combining those patterns to form a cohesive whole. This is ILI (constructing whole from the details) rather than LII, according to Gulenko.
Near is a tough case. He's perhaps the most inactive character in the show, and he's clearly different from L in that he can go off limited information to examine the most probable outcome. That seems very NiTe to me. His inactivity could be indicative of Se DS. Evidence for this is that he always acts in such a way to get Mello to do his dirty work for him. In a back-and-forth with @Cosmic Teapot about Light's type, this seems to be the dynamic between Ni base and Se base (Mello SEE). LII would be less needing of Se from others, but they would suck at it too.
EDIT: Near acts when he feels his understanding is complete, essentially ignoring all information or details that have no clear place. This is Te ignoring and Ti valuing. I can see LII now.
I should note, however, that, temperamentally, Near fits Ij better and L fits Ip better. Subtypes could overcome this problem, but I'm honestly not sure how strongly to weigh temperament into a system primarily about cognition. There are many times when Near is completely out of it, like when he's playing with airplanes when something important is occurring. This could be the alpha childishness as well, though. That being said, when we're talking about individuals who both never had proper support systems growing up, behavioural childishness is almost a certainty. That doesn't necessarily mean they're alpha. IEs are the best way to go when dealing with this. I could accept that both L and Near are LII but with different subtypes maybe. Near seems very gamma, though.
I'm also not buying the argument that Misa is SEE. She seems like an alpha SF stereotype in terms of traits and cognition, and she does not have nearly enough intuition to be EIE. At a high-level, unsubstantiated, non-cognitively generated stance, SEEs are more diva-ish, whereas ESE are more like whiny yet social kids. But of course that's coming from an INTx type.
Last edited by FarDraft; 05-02-2019 at 05:22 AM.
----- FarDraft, 2020
So, it's been a while and I've finally found a source for where I got the idea that Ni can function well without experience. Here's the quote and link.
Because the individual gets his or her primary information about the world through mindful simulation of events, a person with leading Ni may be able to thrive in situations where data are scarce, or where he or she lacks the usual prerequisite experience.
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php/280-Socionics-Information-Elements-Descriptions-by-Functions
At the end of the article, it says that the source is sociotype.com, but that website is extremely slow for me and so I haven't thoroughly checked.
----- FarDraft, 2020
Okay. I don't know what we are talking about anymore since you deleted the posts, lol.
I don't think I disagreed with your proposition though. Maybe you misunderstood me or I wasn't clear. I meant Ni leads are more likely to freeze up on purpose and delay things as a tactic, which is what my impression of L was. That is why they are a foil to Se leads. I don't think L was holding out because he didn't know Light was Kira. He definitely knew, way before anyone else suspected Light. So the lack of information is not the reason he didn't act on his knowledge. It's simply a quality of his. Ti leads don't usually have that quality of being indecisive, especially not LSI, and an LII less likely than an ILI. I don't know if that is the argument you were making or not though. Feel free to correct me.
ILI:
If he has failed to find the right job or profession, then his skepticism begins to take the upper hand: "Why is all of this necessary? Nothing good will come of this…" He cannot even force himself to meet the bare minimum expectations, which may lead to serious repercussions such as being dismissed from work or dropping out of school or university. In such cases, he feels helpless, lacking a "spine" – the resolve to do anything – as his irrationality makes it difficult for him to meet even the minimum requirements for his survival.
To feel yourself happy with your BALZAC, you need to learn to inspire and to activate him, because he drowns in various matters and frequently cannot force himself to undertake the necessary actions when the time comes. He does not have sufficient enthusiasm, nor determination within himself, and therefore he needs to be stimulated from without. Otherwise, he will attempt to prove to you that there is no possibility whatsoever to carry out the job or project which you have planned.
IEI:
His professional activity and productivity are unpredictable, since his capacity for work highly depends on his internal state: short flashes of energetic activity alternate with periods of prolonged inaction. As a rule, he his energy drive is lowered, and he therefore he finds it difficult to continuously exert himself.
The main annoyance of coming into contact with an IEI lies in the fact that he will frequently turn down your initiatives, foretelling with melancholy that your undertakings will not end in success.
What I said earlier wasYou saidThe reason I framed my language the way I did was because that was (and still is) my interpretation of the NiTe thinking process. Ni guesses how to do things based on the information they have seen before (which is why Ni bases can do well without too much evidence, like Near does) and Te sees if that guess fits with the evidence. TiNe I envision more to be along the lines of Ti systematically analyzing the information present with Ne providing possible interpretations for where the information breaks down, theorizing alternative possibilities. It's a strictly logical process with intuition mixed in, and it's foremost concerned with precision like L isalongside quoting Beskova and Filatova about the ILI's skeptical nature.If you want to play the devil's advocate that is fine, but these are your words not mine.
I was mostly interested in actually finding where I got the idea that ILI's do well without data/experience, though. It seems wrong to me that Ni is just a function that relies solely on data/experience since it is an intuitive function that should be able to fill in the gaps of their data/experience by, well, "intuitively" coming to conclusions. It's also said in most descriptions that ILIs have a very strong imagination; therefore, I think lacking data/experience shouldn't be a problem. I read that quote in the past but couldn't remember where I found it. To me, it wouldn't make sense if that quote were not true, which is why I wanted to find it, and I did. That being said, if I can't find a reliable source for it, then there is no other option but to reject it. In that case, the idea that ILIs function well without data/experience would be a logical conclusion rather than an empirical postulate unless someone can logically refute it based on other empirical postulates.
I think that the motivation behind using that quote was that Near was able to determine who was in contact with Kira (Mikami) without having much data at all. It leads to this infamous scene (where people call Near a cheat).
This would be evidence for ILI (perhaps not exclusive evidence, though). However, what he says right after - "everything seems to fit into place" - sounds like static thinking, which fits better with LII.
Also, it seems to me like L didn't convict Light mainly because he didn't have evidence to explain a number of minor details rather than it just being a product of his indecisiveness. For example, since Raye Penber and Naomi Misora died, L decided to survey Soichiro's family. Light, having realized this because of his traps on his door, uses the TV in the potato chip bag to kill criminals while still acting like a normal high schooler would. However, having seen the message that the FBI is sending 1500 agents and knowing that he is being surveyed, Light jokes at L, which leads him to suspect him more. Basically, L has a ton of reasons to suspect Light (mainly because of Light's arrogance and carelessness) but he doesn't have irrefutable evidence since Light outmaneuvered L's tactics for the most part. In a court of law, Light could have a case (though the Japanese conviction rate is 99% (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/23/carl...icroscope.html)). This is evidence in support of Ni base for L. Near, being in the same circumstances (but with perhaps more evidence since Light was even more careless and arrogant near the end of the show), decided to construct a plan to prove Light's guilt once and for all. If L had decided to do that, he would've won.
The reason I'm still not confirmed on L and Near's types is because they both show contradictory evidence. For example, does L care about justice or does he just want to win? At the beginning of the show, he yells "I am justice!" and he also says later "and justice will prevail", indicating that he cares about upholding rules and standards (Ti base), but he also says, in the one shot death note special that "It's not a sense of justice. Figuring out difficult cases is my hobby. If you measured good and evil deeds by current laws, I would be responsible for many crimes. The same way you all like to solve mysteries and riddles, or clear video games more quickly. For me too, it's simply prolonging something I enjoy doing. That's why I only take on cases that pique my interest. It's not justice at all. And if it means being able to clear a case, I don't play fair, I'm a dishonest, cheating human being who hates losing."
Also, in Death Note: How to Read volume 13, Tsugumi Ohba (author) and Takeshi Obata (mangaka) said that L could never have friends or a romantic interest because he doesn't trust humans. He thinks that they are too cunning a species to truly trust. This fits Ni base more than Ti base, which leads me to think that his Ti-sounding claims earlier were just said to get people on his side. He lies, as he's said before.
Near just isn't given that much time in the anime, so I can't deduce much. However, according to a reddit post, 'It states that Near: "heavily values results... if the battle is lost, no matter how good the process was, there would be no meaning to it.' where "it" refers to volume 13 of How to Read. This seems like results-oriented thinking, which indicates LII, but I have no clue how reliable Reinin's dichotomies are.
Anyways, I'm pretty certain L is ILI now that I've sifted through those quotes from the author and mangaka but still unsure about Near. Probably LII > ILI but I'd have to read the manga to be more certain.
----- FarDraft, 2020
That scene was explained in the manga much better. The anime kind of rushed it. It wasn't a random guess. That was actually part of Light's plan for them to find Mikami. I don't remember all the details though. You will have to read it for yourself.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deathnote/c...uce_the_xkira/
Ah, ok then. I'll probably read the latter third of the manga (since I've heard that the first two thirds of the anime follow the first two thirds of the manga quite closely) when I get the chance.
----- FarDraft, 2020
I never read the manga nor watched the anime but I did watch the movie (Netflix, 2017). If it’s an accurate portrayal adaption of the main characters, then my analysis will transfer.
Light- ILI
4D valued Ni dreamy idealism wanting to create a utopia to end all crime and 4D unvalued sarcastic Ti who hates rules but makes up rules on the spot based upon the situation. Demo Ti is in support of creative Te to execute Ni’s desires for Te reasons. He hates the system but wants to reap/apply the benefits of the intended outcome derived from the system without adhering to the system’s consequences, “So many fucking rules.” 1D valued Se comes out in his desire to stand up for others being bullied but too chickenshit to tangibly do anything about the “wrongs” (he’s powerless to directly address the wrongs, Ni victim) but likes wielding magical powers to determine the death of anyone he pleases (Ni fantasies mixed with suggestive Se). It began with his mob Fi (HA) about his mom’s death from a car accident and the driver who caused her death was a mobster that paid off the jury to buy a not guilty verdict. To Light, the mobster got away with murder and although he wanted to avenge his mother’s death, which is understandable, he was powerless to do anything about it (1D Se) until he met SLE Ryuk (semi-duals). Ryuk gave Light a taste of immense power. At first Light tested on a school bully and when he saw that Death Note works, he used it to avenge his mother’s death. But because of mob Fi, it quickly spiraled out of control because he wanted Mia and when she quickly entered his life, she was enthusiastically and intrusively taking active part in Death Note. Together, they combined their egos into Kira. It started the moment she told him they could rule the world together (like a secret only they know) and that gave him the moral support and confidence he needed to validate his Ni dreams.
“They’re people who are looking for someone who’s not gonna let them down the way cops do and politicians. It’s bigger than me. It’s bigger than us. What they want is a god. So let’s give it to them. Let’s give them a god. Let’s make a name for him. A god that never let’s anybody down. It’s not gonna solve a few crimes. It’s gonna solve all crime. A god who inspires hope that things can actually change.”
Mia- IEE, Light’s Mirage and together they’re Kira
Ne lead but Ti PoLR doesn’t even acknowledge there’s rules and wants to bring chaos, shitty usage of Se as she feels powerless but puffs up role function to encourage Light to kill anyone and everyone, even innocent just so “people know not to fuck with Kira.” As far she’s concerned, Death Note is about her romantic bonding activity with her bf and this is what will keep them bound together (Fi creative). Because she believes she controls her bf who deems himself a god, she uses that relation/association (creative Fi) as further license she gets to do whatever she wants because believes there’s no rules, no consequences (Ti PoLR). Even when Light feels the heat on him and wants to stop, Mia insists they’re morally good and anyone who tries to stops them should be killed, even law enforcement.
Light: Even if they’re suspicious, I don’t see how they can prove it. I think we just go quiet until they stop following us.
Mia: What do you mean “go quiet”?
Light: Stop fucking around with the Death Note.
Mia: Is that really what you we’re doing? We’re the good guys and they’re trying to stop us.
Light: We don’t kill innocent people, Mia. Even if I wanted to, which I don’t. Taking out the guy following us only indicate that it’s me.
Mia: That’s why you’d have to get rid of all the agents regardless of who they’re following. That way they wouldn’t know who it was but they’d definitely know what happens when you fuck with Kira.
Light: I can’t believe you’re saying this.
Mia: I can’t believe you’re not.
Light: Well then I guess we’re really fucking lucky that it’s MY book.
Gulenko describes Mirage relation aspects:
“When both partners get into a stressful situation, the balance in upset: they cannot easily calm each other down. What is unpleasant is that at times your mirage partner may rudely without warning interfere with your affairs. As a result you will be prompted to confront him or her to reset your boundaries.”
Light: Son of a bitch killed them all. There’s so many rules in that thing. There must be some kind of loophole.
Mia: Ryuk? What’s he going to do if you go after him? Maybe you should just take a minute and relax and see if this was the best thing that could’ve happened.
Light: No.
——-
Mia grabs Death Note to write down Light’s dad.
Light: What? Are you out of your mind?! That’s my fucking dad!
Mia: Yeah, and he just dared us to kill him on live television! Do you really think people are gonna be on their knees if he can talk to Kira like that?
Light: We’re not killing my dad! Mia, this is over! Ryuk fucked us! We’re not the good guys anymore.
Mia: What happened to the boy who wanted the world to get what he got? Think about your mom, Light. Either Kira stands up or they hunt us down.
Light: If you want out, then just get the fuck out!
Mia: So you just want to quit?
Light: I don’t know...
Mia wants chaos by destroying any semblance of law and order (Ne lead to Ti PoLR) and would stop at nothing even if it’ll destroy her and Light. She doesn’t grasp the reality of the situation because she can’t apply logical analysis to herself due to creative Fi and misapplication of and poorly utilized Se. She refuses to listen to any logical explanation (PoLR Ti) of what’s truly happening: Ryuk tricked them and now they’re fucked in real life but they’re also morally damned and no better than rampant murderers. All she does is continue to rationalize her emotions as being in the right and the ends justifies the means (mob Te informing creative Fi). Even when Light constantly tells her to not “help” him, she looks mad at him and insists on being intrusive, “Of course I do. I’m not leaving you alone in this.”
——
Mia waited in the pouring rain for Light to come home.
Mia: Please Light, you have to forgive me.
Light: It was my dad, Mia.
Mia: If I could take it back, I would. I promise. I was just scared.
Light: Do you think I’m not scared?!
Mia: I’m a fucking cheerleader, Light. Nothing I do ever mattered until I met you. I made a mistake. If I could take it back, I would. I just... I wasn’t ready to lose you. [Light walks away from her] I love you! [Light turns back] I love you.
Light: L showed me his face. I’m going to get his name, and I’m gonna stop him.
——
Mia: I know you’re probably upset but if you freak out, they’re gonna be all over us and that’s not going to end well.
Light: You killed him.
Mia: No, Light. I saved you from yourself again. Because every time things get hard, you leave me to do the real stuff.
Light: Oh, my God. It was always you. Ryuk found a loophole. You were the loophole.
Mia: You don’t get to feel superior for being a pussy. I did what I had to do... to protect us.
Mia was the one who killed all the FBI agents (not Ryuk as Light thought) and when she took the Death Note for safe keeping, she wrote in Light’s name and that he’ll give her the book. Despite all that, he still believed she loved him and hoped they could still be together and get rid of Death Note.
Light vs. Ti egos
James, Light’s father- LSI, Light’s benefactor
Light and his father have a very strained relationship and it stems from how they approach and utilize Ti. James is not only relationally in a higher position than Light (father to son) but also in the socionics way that he’s psychologically in a higher position because he protects Light and gets nothing in return (James’ lead Ti vs Light’s demo Ti). James works as homicide detective and is the lead investigator in the Kira case. He upholds the letter of the law and works within the confides and limitations of the legal system (valued 4D Ti) but also adheres to the spirit of the law that (the concept of) justice operates in accordance with order, and that no one is above the law, even if they got away with murder because they exploited the law. His wife died in a car accident and the perpetrator was a mobster who paid the jury for a “not guilty” verdict and essentially bought his freedom. James does feel upset by that but he upholds to the fact that the legal system worked as it should and the system isn’t broken (Ti lead) even though the outcome was wrong because someone cheated the system (Se creative adheres to reality/ Ti to Se is referee to calling out logical errors). James takes a matter of fact attitude that the system played it’s part within its framework and there is nothing else that could be done about it. Despite suffering a personal loss, James doesn’t work outside of the system and made no exceptions even for him to break any laws (personal or logical). It’s due to PoLR Ne that he appeared to not deduce that his own son is Kira and creative Se works with what tangible information is present. In the end, he followed the logical sequence of deaths and knew that Light did it. Light on the other hand, circumvents the rules and makes up his own rules as in what to follow in order to make the outcome align with his utopian (lead Ni) system (unvalued demo Ti). He complains about rules throughout the entire movie.
“Those of you that harbored any illusions about what Kira really is, the cold-blooded murder of a dozen FBI agents should lay bare his true nature. Kira is a cowardly criminal thug concerned only with self-preservation. Not only is he unworthy of the veneration and celebration he’s received in certain circles, as of today, he’s not even worthy of our fear. Understand this, Kira. You may strike me down, but another one will stand up and take my place, and another, for as long as need be. We will not waiver. We will not submit. And we will not fail.”
——
James: Is there anything I need to know?
Light: How do you do it? How you handle all this? How do you handle having everybody against you? You’re just screwed either way.
James: Things are never black and white. Sometimes you just have to choose the lesser of the two evils.
——
James: It was you all along.
Light: I had to choose the lesser of the two evils.
James: Which one are you?
Ryuk- SLE, Light’s semi-dual
He’s an amoral, bored demon with immense powers who likes playing games with people by bestowing them immense power (Se lead) and watching them destroy themselves (PoLR Fi). He realistically reads the situation based on present and latent power dynamics and knows who’s inept at being able to handle powers beyond their reach, by which I think he purposely targets. He fluidly utilizes the textual evidence (demo Te) to solidify the contextual (Death Note’s laws, creative Ti) power dynamics (lead Se). Although it’s really amusing for Ryuk to watch Light (and others before Light) get drunk on power, Ryuk tells Light that there’s no harm in admitting Death Note is beyond his scope and offered Light several chances to back out, so Ryuk is fairly sympathetic given the situation (mob Fe) that he allowed Light to create but Ryuk also knows that Light can’t manage the power (1D Se) and won’t give up the power he’s always wanted. Ryuk uses that to teach Light a lesson by allowing Light to think Ryuk killed FBI agents and orchestrated that to demoralize Kira (in actuality, Mia killed those agents and Ryuk likes it because she’s revealed that she’s corrupt) Light felt the weight which morally damns him and his vision because Ryuk has demonstrated how concrete power and consequences works (Se) which is a slam against Light’s Ni utopia. Ryuk has valued and strong Ti. He wrote the rules and enforces the consequences of the rules (Te demo executes Se lead desires rooted in Ti creative reasons). He doesn’t care if the human owner of Death Note reads the rules or not, the rules are there clearly written and defined, so Ryuk is legitimized to enforce his rules without compunction. Power is in the rules and if the rules give power, then the rules can take it away. Basically, Ryuk is teaching Light Se that is anchored in Ti: if you don’t play by the rules, you don’t get the protection of the rules.
Ryuk: You think I’m some dog, Light? You could just snap your fingers and I’ll come running?
Light: Did you kill those FBI agents?
Ryuk: What do you think?
Light: I decide who dies, you obey me. Those are the rules.
Ryuk: And who do you think wrote the rules?
Light: Who’s side are you on?
Ryuk: There are no sides, only the game. And I knew eventually you wouldn’t be able to handle playing. I asked politely, but you didn’t hear me. Let the Note go. Look at the strife it’s causing you and your little girlfriend. Let me find it a new home. We’ll be free of each other.
Light: I’m not going to give the Note to you or anybody else and if you fuck with me again, I’m going to put your name in it.
Ryuk: HAHAHAHAHA You could try. Hahahahaha But I warn you, there are four letters in my name. Most anyone’s ever gotten were two.
——-
You know what happens when they find it? It ends up my book again, Light. And guess what name I’m gonna suggest we start with when I find it a new home?
L- LII, Light’s contrary
4D valued Ti of adhering to rigid logical rules (maxims) and 4D unvalued Ni giving insight and warnings to Light that he’s on the wrong path but L upholds the law and wants Kira caught as the bottom line. He deduced that Kira was named to throw law enforcement off track into thinking the killer is somewhere else (in Japan, while Light is in Seattle). He also deduced that the victims were all publicly announced in media outlets before they were killed. He went through Ti process of logical elimination and pieced what he solved as parts of a puzzle (creative Ne). He has 1D unvalued Se, as contrary to Light’s 1D valued Se, he doesn’t like power struggles and conflicts, it upsets him and he would rather avoid it altogether because he sees it as abusive and corrupts sound, rational judgment. “What do you want, Light? You’re not some sort of sadist. There’s always some flimsy justification, some reason...” Light upholds the spirit and letter of the law and tells Light he is on a very dangerous path being drunk with power and although Light may be blind to it, playing God does indeed have consequences and L wants to bring Light to justice.
“The individual known as Kira, as I’m sure you’re aware, had taken credit for over 400 deaths. While we don’t know how he kills his victims, we do k le how he choose them. Prior to their deaths, all of the victims have had their identities released to the media. This would suggest that Kira is not some omnipotent force. He’s a person... like you or me. He’s also a coward. A child wielding power he does not understand,11 mistakenly believing in doing so he’s at no risk to himself. He’s wrong. Kira, if you’re watching this, know that I am coming for you. Unless, of course, you’d like to kill me right now.”
Ryuk: Hahahahaha Now I’m rooting for this guy.
——
L: I wonder if it was a difficult decision.
Light: If what was a difficult decision?
L: Sparing your father’s life.
Light: I’m sorry. What are you talking about?
L: You must’ve know it would implicate you, yet you couldn’t bring yourself to do it. I’ll admit, I always wondered if you had a line. I guess it’s fortunate for us, the line you finally decided to draw points so clearly in your direction.
Light: So you really think I’m Kira.
L: No, I know it.
Light: If you’re so sure, why haven’t you just arrested me?
L: Because I don’t do check, Light. Only checkmate. But we’ll be there soon enough.
Light stands up and sees Ryuk standing behind L and gets worried.
Light: Can I ask you something? How do you think he does it? Kira.
L: I was hoping you could shed some light on that for me. I have a theory. I think that it’s some form of remote viewing coupled with maybe some latent psychic ability of some sort. Am I close?
Light: So you really have no idea, do you?
L: Well, I have several ideas. Eventually you’ll tell me which is correct.
Light: What if it turned out that all arresting Kira did was give the power to someone else, some potentially much worse?
L: You’re suggesting the ability is somehow transferable.
Light: I’m suggesting that maybe you and the person you’re after want isn’t so different. And maybe they’re as ready to see the killing end as you are. And if that were true, perhaps now would be a good time to start helping them instead of hunting them.
L: Helping... hmmm... You know what I think, Light? I think you want to make a deal. Good deals are made by those in a position of strength. Criminals, such as yourself, never make those deals. What they do is wait until they’re caught and then they beg.
Light: I’m not begging, I’m telling you, you don’t understand.
L: Let me out this in terms you’re more familiar with. A man kills 400 people. He tells us that odd complicated, that he’s misunderstood. Do you think that Kira would hear his excuses? Or do you think they’ll walk him off a bridge?
Light: Do you think you’re better than me, but you’re just trying to kill Kira! Kira, Kira, Kira!
L: I do not kill, Light. I don’t even carry a gun, it’s distracting. What I do is bring people to justice. But the form it takes is their own making. A consequence of their actions, not mine. You’re the one who flew into the sun. I’m just here to make sure you actually burn.l
Light: Well, if that’s how it has to be.
L: It is, Light! You know that as well as I do. There are no draws in this game.
——
L: You have crossed the line. Force me to do the same and I assure you you will not survive.
The main takeaway is that Light is not unaware that he’s turned into a murderer, but he spent most of time rationalizing by propping up the merits of his intensions for doing what he does which gives him power (Ni lead Te creative trying to process suggestive Se), even if his actions contradict logical principles (demo Ti helps assist creative Te but carried out lead Ni desires). He still insists upon his moral righteousness to be judge, jury, and executioner because he believes he’s morally good and therefore could do morally bad things because of his noble intensions (Ni lead being informed by Fi mob) behind committing reprehensible actions (Te creative allows workaround rationalization). Despite being warned by multiple Ti egos telling him that his smug and idealism will be his undoing, Light still believed he could get away with it. In the end, it all blew up in his face- he placed so much esteem in Mia and she betrayed him which forced him to kill her. His father knew it was Light all along. Although Light was successful at at saving his life by killing more people (including Mia), he didn’t feel like he got any closer to his dream, and felt like he never truly made a dent in the scheme of things. Even though L figured out Light, Ryuk gamed Light into destroying his himself and everything he loved or loved him. Ryuk has always been the shadow master and derived immense pleasure from watching people morally and completely destroy themselves. So even though the story centers around Light, it’s ironically about Ryuk and what he embodies, “You humans are so interesting.”
I think big picture-wise, the writer is saying that there’s no such thing as utopia because it runs counter to reality. Reality is amoral and imposing morality to break or change the rules because you don’t like the outcome causes more problems. You can’t force reality to bend to your whims and ideals without destroying yourself in the process. In the case of Mia, she permanently died. In the case of Light, he died and came back more aware of reality but now his father knows he’s guilty. L got ahold of a page of Death Note in Mia’s calculus book and vaguely smiles ominously.
In the end, reality is the only constant and always win.
I LOVE this movie! It’s very anti-Fi, pro-Se, pro- Ti, and illustrates the delusions and massive setbacks of Ni.
Last edited by Lolita; 11-01-2020 at 11:07 PM.
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