in your experience and/or theorization, what are LIEs and ESIs likely to butt heads about?
LIEs are still elusive to me irl and i don't have any particular reason for asking, just writing this post got me thinking & curious.
Well for a LIE-ESI couple I know, they fought like cats and dogs all the time over minor issues but agreed on all big issues so it worked for them. She said they were passionate--Idk to me they seemed like the description deems them: "robotic"
In my own experience I've conflicted with LIEs ( I only know LIE-Nis) over lots.
lots. and lots. and it's usually pretty intense.
and we usually get over it and if we don't time tends to and then it's okay again.
But I'm thinking about my ex. with LIE friends, well, Idk I don't tend to fight with friends unless one of us thinks the other is making a huge mistake in their life and the other doesn't agree. But it tends to also sort itself out after a bit of time.
But also from outsider's view it can look like fighting- I tend to tease a lot and so do they, so it's constant push-pull.. Which makes it never all that boring but it can also be frustrating.
Obviously I'm not ESI or LIE so can't comment directly on that, but ime, if there is anything to Socionics, it's that you may perceive a dual (or activity) partner differently than others do, and differently by far than the canned descriptions make things out. In my own life, where someone else might see how logical and somewhat rigid my partner seems, I actually see all the chinks in that particular suit of armor. First, I don't have a lot of patience with the rigidity, and I push pretty hard (lots of teasing) to make things squishier and less serious. Second, the logic is ... just not adequate. I mean, we don't skate through life on pure logic, not if we don't want to be all lopsided and weak. He can't easily get out of logic zone, but I can sort of dovetail with him so he experiences how incomplete that state of being really is.
Also, introvert/extrovert lineups seem to have one person dealing more with reality checking (the extro), and the other (intro) calling for getting to grips with things if the inner stuff is being ignored in favor of action. Etc.
This sort of stuff absolutely can lead to conflict, and lots of it. Who better to call someone on their BS than the person who sees it most clearly AND loves you despite it? It's almost like an obligation to call BS. But it still seems like conflict that leads somewhere. It's not just about two people pummeling each other to dust.
Last edited by golden; 07-29-2015 at 01:25 PM.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
^ yeah.
Absolutely.
I feel like a better, more rounded version of myself after rubbing against LIEs that I'm very close with. Also it helps knowing I can always make the LIEs i've known laugh-- they get my humor and I feel like they defend me when I need it. Also any bullshit I've ever played before doesn't work on them, they either see it and play along or completely destroy and idea that I have that it's a good way. Plus I love facts and they spout off random facts a lot. Pretty cool.
And Idk, one of LIE friends says I'm extremely loyal, whilst ever trying to see how far I can push his buttons, We prod and coax each other.
And most are pretty intelligent and like to talk about the same subjects I do.
Even extensively about time-travel, space contium, cryogenics..
Awww.Originally Posted by blackburry
My ESI roommate has an LIE best friend and they are ridiculously cute. For a while the LIE girl was also living at our place though, and that was awkward b/c although I thought she was super cool I didn't always know how to make conversation with her. But they are adorable.
Ooh ohhh tell us what they were like!Awww.
My ESI roommate has an LIE best friend and they are ridiculously cute. For a while the LIE girl was also living at our place though, and that was awkward b/c although I thought she was super cool I didn't always know how to make conversation with her. But they are adorable.
Any quarrels?
pulsating relations
i was going to make a thread, but this would just as well go here...
from the LIE-ESI duality description here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ity-Work-Meged
whats your take on this?Their relations have a pulsating nature, as do relations of other members of 2nd and 3rd quadra, for whom fighting spirit and orientation at victory are characteristic. Fluctuations and contrasts in their relations only serve as a guarantee of their longevity...The saying: "Fights of lovers are only confessions of love" – is often about them.
i read it and heaved an annoyed sigh, lol. on one hand i can see how it might be necessary. but on the other hand i just want to be fucking happy, kwim? realistically how can this be healthy, especially if a couple has kids together? i know descriptions tend to be exaggerated - how much would you say it is in this case?
I'd say it can swing both ways. I do think couples should fight once in a while. even if it's just to say, "We've been together for so long, I'm annoyed by how long we've been together.."
I, personally, like a few big fights once in a while (meaning maybe once every six months) but I don't seek it out. nor would I start one just to start one unless I'm really pissed about something.
I'm being called away at work. I shall come back and add more.
I personally don't like big fights. I'm one of those people who take "negative" comments very personally and remembers them for a long time (yes I know it's a character "fault", but I can't change that at will), so if those load up I'm going to harbor bitterness. Of course if you're arguing about something "practical" or relatively impersonal then maybe it makes sense. I do like some semi-constant teasing and light trolling, much better than "fighting".
I know one LIE-ESI couple who fights a lot. They seem to enjoy calling each other names. They're E8 (lie) and E6 (esi), and I think they're getting married next year so...it works for them.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I don't like big fights--doesn't mean I haven't been in some. If the Gottman marriage research is correct (about "emotional flooding"), a couple could sound very argumentative and it wouldn't be a big deal, so long as they were not getting physiologically worked up. And a couple could seem fairly calm or restrained but be seriously hurting each other all the same.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
Anything that can be used as a perfect excuse to engage in a BDSM session.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
its not fighting that i really have a problem with so much. its feeling insecure about the groundwork of the relationship. but the emphasis in the description i linked (and in ni/se relationship descriptions in general) seems to be on playing off that insecurity to maintain interest and to feel accomplished as a couple for having dealt with it. and 1) i have mixed feelings, generally negative, about that to begin with - i can see the appeal but like i said, i just want to be fucking happy, lol, and 2) i just don't see how that could be healthy or how that kind of dynamic would actually play out day-to-day in a sane relationship.
(this has taken a divergent turn but the generic "what do LIEs and ESIs fight about" question is still open)PT (LIE) makes life of RF (ESI) eventful and interesting – he brings elements of novelty, unpredictability and romance, stirs and enlivens emotions, although often this occurs after strong shake-ups hovering on the verge of a breakup. But this is necessary for both of them, to appreciate each other more, and each time to feel the strength of their union, that will last any tests.
^^ fuck, I'd say for my actual romantic relationships, it's a bit spot on. However it's not like that kind of thing happens every day, all day. An event will happen-- he and i handle them differently and perhaps we're both disappointed in the other, however, I don't feel smothered by his faults.... I don't feel like he's an absolute idiot who has lost my respect, it's more like we'll bicker for an hour or two until we understand the others view and then viola, it's crystal clear and you understand why they acted as such and the respect is still there. And things go right back to normal. But it's taken a lot to get to that point. Now it's easy to see an LIEs viewpoint imo ( idk i react a lot better to them critizing me than anyone else-- it's natural, I dont even think about functions, socionics...
Very true and it often works out better when both members are conflict avoidant, volatile, or in the middle rather than an avoidant paired with a volatile person.
I haven't had too much experience with conflict with LIEs but I think the biggest thing I get annoyed about with the ones I have met is their large egos and difficulty admitting when they are wrong.
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
Generally, my experience had been ridiculously pleasant. We never saw conflict as a bad thing and saw each other's opposition as an opportunity to learn something new. Mutual friends who tried to meddle or assert that we were fighting was unconsciously tagged teamed by me and him.
Basically, we called them out for trying to get in our business. He and I had a type of arrogance where we knew we've got everything handled.
--
In retrospect, I don't think we fought much as we hated/disliked the same things. Our differences were on trivial matters. We quickly found compromise on those things.
You're going to get tag teamed for writing that soon, Boom.
Now that I remember, I have more than once had some trouble with very religious ISFjs.
Yes, I know ridiculing religious people is bad...but I really can't help it lol. I have gottten better at it but I will relase some snarky comment here and theere anyway.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Ehhh, the LIE I know (my S.O. Finale) claims that the ESI was constantly trying to fight useless battles for him, that he didn't give half a whit about (stuff that wasn't pertinent... meaningless details). He told her to stop doing it, but she wouldn't... she would sneak around and do it anyways.
I think he liked her, but..... it was not what he wanted long-term. He claims there wasn't enough of an intellectual connection; that she didn't interest him for the long-term.
LIEs from what I've experienced are very independent and they don't want to be babied in any way.... in fact, they would rather be the ones doing the baby'ing.
Yea, they won't ever admit it, from my experiences, although they will determine it and you know they know it. They act on it. But you've gotta be pretty swift on the "proving it", because they'll stick to their guns. But if you prove it, they'll find you capable and they'll act accordingly, not through words but through actions.
Last edited by jet city woman; 04-03-2013 at 11:14 PM.
My $0.02 worth of theorizing:
In random contacts, I guess general values may be the main thing - single women and young men are overrepresented among brainless leftwingers, married women and older men among heartless libertarians or neocons; this difference is an endless supply of fuel for silly arguments. Also and relatedly, the confused and closed minds of the godless vs the rigid and similarly closed ones of the religious is a reliable source of friction in close quarters.
In family relationships, my bet is that minutiae of daily life is the top source of friction. In America and the Anglosphere, issues of religion, politics, use of money and minutiae of lifestyle are sure to surface.
Greetings, ragnar
ILI knowledge-seeker
(Im esi se subtype I think. Just started dating an lie. I think. Anyway to me its curious how happy go lucky they are and how much that eases your emotions. I also dated one in high-school but hated him. Maybe our subtypes were incompatible? I dunno I'll be able to see how much the optimistic attitude I can handle. (Edited to say that so far I love it)
Short answer from my experience: LIE has to learn to dedicate more time to family/friends (including to the ESI himself). Left on their own devices they could get too absorbed in their work. My father has spent 2 thirds of his life working (at work). Maybe the sp/so stack is also at play here, dunno. LIEs don't place too much value on being physically there (and actively communicating or doing cool things together) in order to know or to think they're involved. Theirs is more of an implied way of "caring" - spot-on and level-headed advice when ppl need it, financial aid, sometimes solving bureaucratic issues etc. They can also get excessively critical at times not understanding personality nuances -- approaching stuff from a standardized (and conventionally secure/reliable) pov. My father still thinks people who work as freelancers are leading a very dangerous life, walking on a rope up in the sky etc. What is precisely calculable and predictable and can ensure a totally controllable future should be everyone's heaven on earth. In other aspects: imo Te folks draw a map of ppl from a purely external pov (cause>actions) and then it's quite understandable that they dislike unpredictability and try to keep everything under control (theirs), since they can be easily taken by surprise when someone behaves in a different way coz of a mood or simply another way of expression.
Dating-wise: the LIE I dated briefly this year could be very stubborn about some things not realizing (or not considering it important) that they could make the other uncomfortable. For instance, he would insist on paying and not splitting the bill when we went out with the sole argument that he makes more money than me. So conflict would ensue.
Last edited by Amber; 10-10-2014 at 11:05 AM.
Just answering for myself here, other guys can have a completely different attitude, but I wouldn't relate. It's very important for me to do stuff with my partner. I don't know how it will be when I have kids since they can have very different preferences so perhaps I would be more inclined to just let them "do their thing"...
Idk, I think it's dangerous if you have a family but if you're alone, not really, it's easy to at least scrape by. Anyway parents are always risk averse towards their children...My father still thinks people who work as freelancers are leading a very dangerous life
Ahah. I totally do this. I'm even able to seriously damage years long partnerships on the basis of fairly minor disagreeements.Dating-wise: the LIE I dated briefly this year could be very stubborn about some things not realizing (or not considering it important) that they could make the other uncomfortable. For instance, he would insist on paying and not splitting the bill when we went out with the sole argument that he makes more money than me. So conflict would ensue.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
"
My father still thinks people who work as freelancers are leading a very dangerous life
Idk, I think it's dangerous if you have a family but if you're alone, not really, it's easy to at least scrape by. Anyway parents are always risk averse towards their children..."
I think some people are too busy with other things and don't read everything written on here, so misunderstandings or misinterpretations come easily. I was just describing my father's opinion on freelancing, in general. Parent-child relationship has nothing to do with this. He has this attitude because he's been (safely) employed in one institution all his life. I know people who make very good money (more than him, but hey, they live in Germany) as freelancers in a prolific field (such as marketing or IT). Kind of off-topic, but a ILI friend has given up on his stable job in a company in order to build up his own firm and lead a more independent life as an entrepreneur.
Me too (meaning I know people who make more money than me working indipendently) - but I wouldn't exactly call them "freelancers" but rather "professionals" or "entrepreneurs". Not that important of a point tho.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I feel like we could butt heads about ffing anything. Who pays. Who's the one usually driving. Texting vs. phone calls. Should we go there or to that other place? There usually wasn't conflict for me per se, and my dual and I were pretty flexible with each other on most things. But a little issue could kind of explode if there were a lot of pent up feelings. As for day-to-day living as parents, I think that the idea is that as time goes on, you have fights but each time you make up you understand yourself and your dual better. The link becomes stronger, and fights are less likely to really rock the relationship. By the time you're committed enough to get married, your fights might not be as big of a deal.
The content of interactions doesn't really matter to intertype relations -- the psychological reasons behind specific conflicts and interactions are more important.
Te/Fi quadra relationships in general are very rooted in mutual constructive criticism/helping each other be better people. In the case of LIE/ESI, ESIs have a very good idea of what makes them comfortable and what they expect from other people (instinct +
base), and they have fairly high standards of the people that surround them. So, they expect people who associate with them to have certain attitudes or standards of behavior. LIEs on the other hand are quite intellectual and prone to critiquing ideas and methods of doing things that aren't optimal.
What do these signs mean—,
, etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason,
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function(extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
It's weird seeing things here I typed about an ex.
Necessary ingredient I'd say. "Fight" in public so u can get it out of your system. I been slapping him around. He's not sure how to take it; responds with playful "threatening" banter. I just break up with him when he acts too flaky and he realizes I need maintenance. Will keep u updated.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
this must be a song about ESI - LIE dualityi saw Florence Welch is typed as ESI
Based on that video, I'd keep her around. She just needs to settle down a bit, though. She needs to have someone explain to her why breaking plates is not efficient.
why in ISFj-ENTj duality breaking plates is inefficient and what will you suggest she do instead?
Se is not the most expert tool for expressing how a girl feels
Breaking plates means you have to go out and buy more of them, which is not as efficient as simply not breaking them and using the ones you have.
I would suggest instead that she get a drink and sit down on the bed and we can discuss what is bothering her. That way, we can resolve her concerns and give each other demonstrable evidence of our commitment to work things out.
The ESI is always in doubt and always fears that the relationship is going to fail. She thinks that the LIE will either act irresponsibly, or will spend too much, or will get involved with the wrong people, or will look at other women (all of which we do), and she has few defenses against this, other than to get the LIE's attention, because the LIE cannot not listen to her and has an extremely hard time refusing her requests (the only sure way is to not listen to them, hence the plates to get his attention if all else fails), and the LIE will believe most of what she says, except the crazy and rationally unfounded parts. The LIE must understand what her fears are, and address them one by one, either by complete explanations or by promises, and by this means remove her fears. They can then both see that they are working together toward a goal, and can then make up. A bed is a good place to do that.
It may look like fighting, but it is really a means of simply getting each other's attention so that any differences or concerns can be resolved.
Let's look at the lyrics that the ESI says:
You hit me once (you (the LIE) started this by doing x, which I don't like)
I hit you back
You gave a kick
I gave a slap
You smashed a plate over my head (we argued)
Then I set fire to our bed (and it finally got to the point where sex was in question)
My black eye casts no shadow (I am not hurt by your fighting - LIE's can be fierce fighters, but ESI's are not intimidated)
Your red eye sees no blame (you do not blame me for my feelings - LIE's instead panic when ESI's are upset, and turn their efforts toward fixing the problem)
Your slaps don't stick
Your kicks don't hit (we can't hurt each other)
So we remain the same (and here is proof we are Duals)
Blood sticks
Sweat drips (after all this effort and conflict....)
Break the lock if it don't fit (resolve the problem any way you can, but resolve it)
A kick to the teeth is good for some (some people fight merely to fight)
A kiss with a fist is better than none (we fight because if we didn't constantly reaffirm our strong commitment, our love would fall apart and we'd have nothing)
thank you for this intensive explanationfrom your post could it be said that this dual pair doesn't need to fight if the LIE makes certain to address ESI's concerns and that conflict happens if the LIE is too careless and indifferent to the distress signals? do the ESIs do things that aggravate the LIEs on their turn?
That is probably correct, they don't need to fight, I guess. I may not be the best person to answer this question. I only know two ESI's presently irl (although I've known them both for several years and have interacted with them on a weekly basis) and I once slept with a third, but from what I have read, FDG is married to one and has had several as girlfriends, so he probably has more cumulative experience with them than I do. But I can tell you what I think, based on my own experience, fwiw.thank you for this intensive explanation
For the most part, spending time with an ESI makes me feel more like a complete human being. Happier, more confident and cheerful, less tense and aggressive. But mostly, happier. They don't have to actually do anything to make me feel this way. They just have to be exactly who they are, and I get happier. In turn, one has told me that she misses me when I'm gone, once said "can this be real life?" (which I took to mean that she is dualizing and is happy, too), and the other is also pretty happy. She will occasionally give me a look that would melt ice cubes at 50 paces, but quickly hides it. I should point out that both of these relationships are platonic, although I'm pretty sure that all three of us have considered changing that.
That is the good part.
The bad part is, they will always doubt, and I will always explore risky possibilities. These things are at once our strengths and weaknesses. My exploration acquires both money and contacts, and loses both money and contacts. Their fears and doubts cause them to not take the initiative and to miss opportunities, but it puts the brakes on my excesses and it conserves our resources. Working on projects together, I will spend without caring about the amounts, but they don't spend unless they have to, and sometimes don't spend enough, and always put any excess away for later. This often results in their spending much more in the long run, both in time and resources, because they didn't spend enough the first time, and in hoarding.
The only time we've had what could be called fights, but which were really just hurt feelings or misunderstandings (at least, that's how I saw it - although now that I think about it, everyone around us was either sitting very still or was moving away. For the ESI's, I think they are probably still thinking about it - they don't forget), were when I slightly criticized one of the ESI's relatives (I'm not doing that again!) and when I was being stubborn about a design decision that the other ESI knew she had made correctly and would not change. She won, I was pretty frustrated, but in the end I saw that she was right.
As for being indifferent to their distress signals, they look distressed most of the time. It is hard for me to tell when they are upset. I think they internalize problems, and the first I know about it is when they say something that is just like a punch to the face, but is really probably just a continuation of their thoughts going back for days. It is easy to see why a LIE's natural reaction is to head toward a fight. Closing the distance immediately is the only way to stop them from doubting you. Before you think about it, before you consider alternate possibilities or all the consequences, you have to focus fully on them and head straight toward the problem. And fix it.
One of the ESI's recently left her job after four years, and she and her manager had words, AFAIK because the manager thought two months notice was not enough. The ESI told me she was scared to go back there to visit her friends, who are still there. Normally, I am always thinking of many things at once, and almost never drop down to less than three things in my head at a time. But when she said "scared", a very strange thing happened to me. Absolutely everything dropped off the table, and I focused completely on her.
ESI's need to believe that your first reaction is going to be to take care of them (but in a completely hands-off way. It is very hard to describe. They don't want your help; they want your support.) And since an LIE's attention will normally drift off to future ventures, I think ESI's have been designed to know exactly how to get that attention focused back down to where they need it.
I don't know what irritates ESI's about LIE's. You'll have to ask them. But one thing that drives me crazy is that they will come to an incorrect conclusion and it is almost impossible to change their minds about it, no matter how obviously false it is. You have to be persistent and rational and hope for the best, and assume that you're not going to win every battle.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 07-28-2015 at 11:53 PM.
There are no conflicts between duals from types point of view.
My company was recently contracted by a large automotive supplier to design and build a prototype camera for road sensing. We meet every Monday morning to hash out the design details and make sure that everyone gets what they want. Our team is LIE, LIE, SLI, LSE, and their team is LII, ESI, SLE, ??? and ???, but it is basically an LIE (me) talking to an ESI (them).
Last week, I presented our proposed design, which uses a high-resolution detector and costs over $5k in units 1-100. Their ESI said that was nice, but brushed aside our proposal, saying they wanted something cheaper and then counter-proposed a single diode detector, saying that they didn’t want to spend money redesigning a complex system into a simple system when it goes on a car. Their target price for this is $20/car.
I was concerned that making the part so simple, while reducing the cost and the development time, would make it not perform properly in real-world conditions, and I said so. The ESI was unmoved and distributed minutes and charts with his single-diode design to his higher-ups.
During the week, I thought about this disaster and our backup strategy. I could not move the ESI from his position by force of personality. His Se is too strong, and I’ve never been opposed by an ESI before; previously, they were always on my team. He was in the superior position in the sense that he was the buyer and had exclusive access to his bosses. I began to despair that the project was not going to meet what I saw as their real goals because the ESI was only seeing problems and was simplifying and cheapening the product without regard to its future performance. And I do not like to be involved in failed projects.
In this week’s meeting, I started the conversation by asking the ESI what his goals were, and listened intently as he reiterated cost and development time. I then talked about costs falling with mass production, and one of his own guys said that development time would be the same for either design. I then spoke about the possible road scenarios where a single-diode solution would fail the user (to let the ESI know that I understood his concerns about cost and failure) and then told a story about how I once had to take personal responsibility and explain to a room full of aerospace suits why our product failed, which by inference scared the hell out of their LII project manager, and then I suggested that we build the more expensive design and we can dumb it down as we get experience in the real world as to what the design really needs to look like in order to work.
Much to my astonishment, the ESI agreed with me, and we immediately made plans to work together on a preliminary needs document.
I’m not entirely sure what made the ESI change his mind, other than the fact that I stayed 100% focused on his concerns and listened to him during our disagreements. He went from “No. Just No” to “Let’s work on this together” in a heartbeat. Strange as hell.
Florence Welsch has clearly 1 D Te. That plate crushing efficiency is just deplorable.
Easy solution: gravity.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
in weak regions of the types.
unlike with conflictors, mostly this happens in valued regions of the both so annoys _lesser_. it's more alike to treat a good child which will accept what you think. it's conflict anyway - as you see problems to fix and not always your opinion will be accepted from the start
in case of base Fi - they become stubborn to your opinions when have negative emotions to you in general or in that situation. in other case they may behave as brainless conformists or at least to look so
as for your case - look at EIEs, not LIEs
https://youtu.be/rlhrdXoQ_k4
Goes back to Strativeskaya's masterwork on this duality dyad. LIE going off the rails and betraying the 'team' or the dyad, at the very least.
A pitch perfect example of LIE ESI duality gone wrong above. Yes, it's a video-game but I haven't seen any other digestible example that was more accurate.
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