Adventures in Dating

[Armitage]

@Armitage, from what I have gathered in my perusal of web statements, the "outside observer's" view of the LIE/ESI relationship is basically a rich John paying to be whipped by a woman in a Dominatrix outfit.

But don't take my word for it. Here's one description. Scroll down for ESI (ISFP)/LIE (ENTJ): https://typingispainintheass.tumblr....y-descriptions.

And here is a gold-digging ESI-Se talking about her Sugar Daddy: https://imgur.com/gallery/5RuSEjQ

OK, now that you've seen that, you can go forward into the future and try to retain your pride in all of your new romantic relationships. Lol.

In my own experience, there is an element of truth to these descriptioins, because ESIs have love (Fi) and LIEs have money (Te), and we all tend to give what we've got. It's not perfectly accurate as a description of the relationship, but it's definitely trending in that direction.

The ILI-SEE dual pair is said to be worse, though. More of an Ni-Se Victim-Aggressor thing.

*EDIT*
It's funny, but the relationship doesn't FEEL to me like it's an exchange of love for money, but when I back up, I see that I'm usually the one who pays for everything and the ESI is the one who is interested in being with me.

I dated an ESI-Fi last summer, and I ended up paying for everything. I don't think she paid for a single thing on any date, until the last one, when she bought two almond croissants; one for her and one for me.
I thought that was progress, but it wasn't as good as the ESI-Se Artist/Decorator, who quickly insisted on paying for her own lunches.

So to conclude, basically I have been a stupid airhead when I dumped the ESI-Se after the fifth time that he asked money from me. Even though my friends, including my ILI and LSI best friends, telling me to ditch him already since the first time that he asked for money. Because in the end people won't love us for who we are, but for what we have. Wow, that's fucked up and depressing.

[Ave]

So to conclude, basically I have been a stupid airhead when I dumped the ESI-Se after the fifth time that he asked money from me. Even though my friends, including my ILI and LSI best friends, telling me to ditch him already since the first time that he asked for money. Because in the end people won't love us for who we are, but for what we have. Wow, that's fucked up and depressing.

Yeah, needless to say, no disrespect to Adam but I disagree with his view on this...

In my opinion, you were right to dump the ESI who asked you for money. You deserve better.

[Adam Strange]

So to conclude, basically I have been a stupid airhead when I dumped the ESI-Se after the fifth time that he asked money from me. Even though my friends, including my ILI and LSI best friends, telling me to ditch him already since the first time that he asked for money. Because in the end people won't love us for who we are, but for what we have. Wow, that's fucked up and depressing.

No, @Armitage, what I presented is the way that the outside world sees the relationship, not the way that it really is.

I'd have stepped away from the guy right away if he'd asked me for money. I mean, you definitely don't need to hang with a person who is borrowing from Jack to pay Jill. That's just nuts.

An ESI who asks you for money in exchange for nothing is exactly like any other person who asks you for money in exchange for nothing.

Not all Duals have their shit together. Not. At. All.

Instead, when I'm around ESIs, what I do is to try to rein in my tendency to solve problems by throwing money at them. I mean, that approach works quite well most of the time, but you aren't trying to have a business relationship with these guys. You need to have them prove that they are as responsible with money as you are, and you can provide suggestions to the better ones, but you aren't going to just give them money.

I compromised a lot with that Summer ESI-Fi. I did it to see if she would eventually split the bills, and she was headed in that direction. She did ask my advice a lot on how to spend money, and that I freely gave, but I didn't offer to solve her problems by giving her money.

Here's some true advice on how to be more LIE: When you or someone you know needs money, find out who ELSE you can get it from.
In business, that's investors. In love, she's on her own. Maybe you'll do matching funds, maybe not. (ESI-LIE love is an equal partnership, when healthy. It's best to get that straight right away.) Or maybe you'll help her find someone who can give her money. An agency. Or she can sell stuff at a price you set, because ESIs undervalue what they have, including themselves.
That's the LIE way.

[Armitage]

I actually did ask him if he could borrow the money from his parents instead, to which he responded that if he could, he would. Eventually I also offered him to lend him money, if we would talk about it first. His reaction was that he wasn't a child. I found that a pretty childish response, actually. Also, one time that he didn't show up for a meet up, because he felt offended by me when I laughed when he proposed to "eat a pizza in my honour, when I would give him the money." I actually didn't laugh him out, despite it being a silly idea, especially since he would be eating that pizza from my money in the first place, and tried to fob me off with it to boot. Instead I laughed, because I didn't want tell him "No." yet another time, I hoped that by laughing and acting dumb, I would be able to change topics without having to answer his question.

I became irate and ditched him when he told me that he had stayed for a couple of nights with a friend, but that this friend's girlfriend had returned from her trip, so now he needed to stay in a hotel and needed money. First of all, why would you have to leave the guy's appartement when his girlfriend returns? Because what the heck would you be doing in the guy's bed when you're dating me? Secondly, every appartement has a sofa. And thirdly, eventually I even said twice that I was willing to reserve a hotel room for him, so he was sure to have a place to sleep that night, if he would tell me the name of the hotel. But the guy had the freaking guts to insist on money still! At that point I was livid, felt used, remembered what my friends had told me, and saw him as a dirty swindler. I scolded him that if he wanted money, he should take his lazy ass to look for a job, instead of being so cruel to play with my heartstrings.
...The tears he cried thereafter showed that he wasn't just a swindler, but a deeply troubled guy. But at that point the damage had already been done, and we haven't spoken since.

[Ave]

I actually did ask him if he could borrow the money from his parents instead, to which he responded that if he could, he would. Eventually I also offered him to lend him money, if we would talk about it first. His reaction was that he wasn't a child. I found that a pretty childish response, actually. Also, one time that he didn't show up for a meet up, because he felt offended by me when I laughed when he proposed to "eat a pizza in my honour, when I would give him the money." I actually didn't laugh him out, despite it being a silly idea, especially since he would be eating that pizza from my money in the first place, and tried to fob me off with it to boot. Instead I laughed, because I didn't want tell him "No." yet another time, I hoped that by laughing and acting dumb, I would be able to change topics without having to answer his question.

I became irate and ditched him when he told me that he had stayed for a couple of nights with a friend, but that this friend's girlfriend had returned from her trip, so now he needed to stay in a hotel and needed money. First of all, why would you have to leave the guy's appartement when his girlfriend returns? Because what the heck would you be doing in the guy's bed when you're dating me? Secondly, every appartement has a sofa. And thirdly, eventually I even said twice that I was willing to reserve a hotel room for him, so he was sure to have a place to sleep that night, if he would tell me the name of the hotel. But the guy had the freaking guts to insist on money still! At that point I was livid, felt used, remembered what my friends had told me, and saw him as a dirty swindler. I scolded him that if he wanted money, he should take his lazy ass to look for a job, instead of being so cruel to play with my heartstrings.
...The tears he cried thereafter showed that he wasn't just a swindler, but a deeply troubled guy. But at that point the damage had already been done, and we haven't spoken since.

Good riddance.

[spacious]

@wonderwoman, please don't take everything I say at face value. Everything that I post is filtered thought my LIE function stack. For you, it might be like trying to run MAC OS on a Windows machine. Or vice-versa. I make a lot of assumptions which are not spelled out in my posts. So please approach these statements with caution.

Anyway, ESIs do seem to be self-sufficient to me. Maybe LIEs seem that way to ESIs, too, IDK. In any case, when meeting an ESI, I know that I very soon feel like this is a very valuable person to know, and I feel good just being around them.

This, of course, depends on them acting like themselves, and not acting in a way that is designed to attract me. Lol.

Those links are here, one for LIE and one for ESI:

Advice to Jack on how to be necessary to the self-sufficient Dreiser: https://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-1...chnogodraizera

Advice to Dreiser on How to Win Jack: https://socionic.ru/index.php/2010-1...10-05-20-51-48

It might help you to know that one of the things I look for in ESIs (because they have it) is a resting bitch face, or a tendency to not be all that nice or friendly at first. You don't have to try for this, though. That would probably overdo it. Just be yourself.

I think that the thing that surprised me most about ESIs is that they seem to relate to the world entirely through Fi. They decide who they like and don't like by Fi. That is very different from the way I approach the world, which is almost entirely through Te.

Oh - thanks Adam - that post was a pretty quickly written one of mine, but I mean for example that I learn how my Ni operates (or may operate) from suppositions you put forth b/c you've read more literature about us, and what you describe feels relatable. I have a lifetime of experience of close interaction with LIEs because I grew up with 2 in my immediate family, and I've disagreed with them many times and deeply trust my own values more than theirs on many if not most areas. I wouldn't say I take everything you say to heart (which could be different from at face value?), but I actually benefit from how you absorb information through your LIE stack, because a long description by Strat will typically be longer than I care / bother to read, so getting the 'distilled' version is useful - if that makes sense. Even if I don't agree with what Strat writes.

I shouldn't dash off posts in a hurry, here, probably, because I also make assumptions that I don't spell out. This is a useful chance though to perhaps clarify some of my background assumptions or principles, for my forum interactions with you, or perhaps others.

[spacious]

It does seem something I'm learning on the forum lately is to not take information presented here at face value - which seems oh so obvious, but is not from my Ne polr because I actually do feel I've been building up Fi comfort and trust with folks here, hah - so I appreciate the reminder.

(Plus, mobilizing Ni is like "this!!!" not "this could apply and then other times that could apply...")

Re. the independence thing of ESIs, I had in mind my own long-term singlehood and how i've seen some say, ESIs dont want help, they want support -- I personally don't know exactly what it is haha that I want in the 'help/support' sense, like obviously i could say 'i want Te/Ni support from a dual!' but it's also a bit complicated, the true nature of how I wish to balance supporting myself, seeking help from others, giving help and support to them, and on and on. So I figured reading strat's take on it may be useful - it almost seems a paradox to me that ESIs could be self-sufficient (what does 'self-sufficient' even mean? We're all interdependent and connected, etc), but an intriguing one.

[Armitage]

I think that the people who say this mean that ESIs desire support in the sense of knowing that someone is having their back as loyally as they would theirs. And perhaps some advice here and there, but letting the ESI feel that they're managing the challenge themselves and only got some minor assistance, instead of being helped like a LSE would take over to show you how it's done. LIEs have a more hands-off approach, than LSEs when explaining things, until the person specifically asks for more help or things threaten to go wrong.

[Adam Strange]

It does seem something I'm learning on the forum lately is to not take information presented here at face value - which seems oh so obvious, but is not from my Ne polr because I actually do feel I've been building up Fi comfort and trust with folks here, hah - so I appreciate the reminder.

(Plus, mobilizing Ni is like "this!!!" not "this could apply and then other times that could apply...")

Re. the independence thing of ESIs, I had in mind my own long-term singlehood and how i've seen some say, ESIs dont want help, they want support -- I personally don't know exactly what it is haha that I want in the 'help/support' sense, like obviously i could say 'i want Te/Ni support from a dual!' but it's also a bit complicated, the true nature of how I wish to balance supporting myself, seeking help from others, giving help and support to them, and on and on. So I figured reading strat's take on it may be useful - it almost seems a paradox to me that ESIs could be self-sufficient (what does 'self-sufficient' even mean? We're all interdependent and connected, etc), but an intriguing one.

Strat had some amazingly deep perceptions into LIEs in theory but she also ran into some (presumed) LIEs who were not very mature, or good, people, so her descriptions of the ESI-LIE interaction are mostly "Jack is an exploiter".

As to the way that ESIs seek help and support, they mainly do it through asking for advice on Te subjects. They want the facts, not the canned answers, because they prefer to make up their own minds. On the other hand, I think they like, almost to the point of needing, someone to make choices for them about the future.

An ESI once told me that he could see lots of possible courses of action, but he couldn't decide which one would be best. LIEs provide that kind of decision effortlessly.

As you said, they don't want help, they want support. Te/Ni support. An example of this is that I fixed a snowblower for an ESI. She couldn't figure out why it didn't start, and I just did some regular maintenance on it and it started right up. She then took the thing and cleared off her driveway in a snowstorm, which is something that I wouldn't do. I'd wait for an easier time.
She got support in what she wanted to do, and then she worked hard to accomplish it without anyone else's help.
Then, amazingly, she texted me to say thanks for fixing her problem. I mean, she did all the work, why thank me? I did almost nothing.

If ESIs seem to be self-sufficient, I think that impression comes from the fact that they usually don't ask for help, and they get right down to doing things themselves, and when a guy tries to approach one, offering her food or nice words, she just stares at him and says WTF?
Really, to most guys, this seems like a rebuff. It's like ESIs just don't need what they are used to offering ("Here, little lady, let me carry those heavy things for you") and so the guys assume that they don't need anything, when it's only what the non-LIEs are offering that is what they don't need.

In turn, most women don't offer the deep Fi that ESIs do (other than EIIs), and they don't offer the down-to-earth Se that ESIs do (except the LSIs), and so LIEs are getting exactly what they need from ESIs, and almost never what they need from other types.

I won't date other types any more, simply for this reason. My concern right now is to find an ESI who is also really compatible with me, because not all of them are.

[spacious]

@Armitage that's insightful, thanks for sharing your interpretation -- I struggle to find the language to describe the kind of support I value, particularly when in my discipline of sociology there's a large research tradition in "social support" and health, with social support commonly being broken down into categories of emotional support, instrumental support, and informational support. I loved the idea of the informational support category when I found out about it, for my EII friend and I feel that, as she puts it, information or its availability cannot be taken for granted.

I also feel that the emotional support category can be a little surface-level, when I lust/long for being deeply seen, known, understood, etc.

[spacious]

Good riddance.

@Armitage it's interesting about your friends warning you. In the epilogue to Loneliness by R. Weiss, he talks about how many problems can arise from forming a close attachment with someone who is far outside your social circles. (The book was published in 1973.) I was a little surprised by this but also felt it was so insightful, because I really went astray when I formed an attachment with the ILE guy whom none of my friends knew. It seems to my ears almost quaint now, the idea/possibility of being introduced to potential dating partners by/through one's friends, or just simple overlap in daily life, because online dating has become so dominant as the mode of search in the 'partner market'. But it does seem there's something different to friends weighing in to one's dating experiences with someone that *only the person dating them has personally interacted with and seen up-close*, vs friends weighing in when they have existing knowledge and observations of their own. If it were me I imagine that I would find friends' input less persuasive and telling if they were giving it to me in the online dating scenario, and they didnt have any experience with the person I'm dating themselves. I would find it easier to write off what they say because only I have the deeper context of the interactions.


I don't know what to do about this, but I wanted to offer what came to mind. I think I know the feeling of regret and have had to work on trying to come to some peace with my past missteps in trusting or getting attached to people...

[spacious]

@wonderwoman, what could the guy have done better and would there have been a way in which he could have made up for his wrongs after you decided to drop him?

@Armitage, thanks for the questions.

I want to clarify I don't view the ILE guy as a bad actor or a bad guy, or even necessarily that he treated me poorly - it's very difficult for me to see him in that sense, though occasionally I get flashes of feeling that the way he violated my boundaries would've been pretty difficult for anyone to deal with, not just me / a sensitive person. It's hard for me to think about what he could have done better because I see it all as starting very early on as I'll go into below... kind of therapeutic to get this out.

I deeply feel that the entire relationship/tie was deeply doomed from the start, and the grave error I made was that I was rather lonely and already trying to reprogram myself / change who I was (mainly to develop more Ne and Ti, or just NTness strengths all around, so I could fit the mold I saw of a "good graduate student"), which then flowed into thinking that the guy would be good for someone else, and if i was trying to change who I was, then therefore he would be good for changing me or good for the changing version of me -- seems a little dumb in retrospect, but I think Se creative can do that when pushed to the brink of visible options running out and not being ready to dive into a full paradigm change in my thinking -- which the relationship did end up bringing about, for my relationship with myself is far healthier now (leaning into and accepting my strengths, less harshness for my weaknesses) and I have far more tools and ways to support myself than I did back then, which I draw on now to support myself when faced with loneliness.

Anyway, I counted once and found seven different moments when I tried to pull away from the guy. Another aspect of context is that I didn't really think that we *should* try to be friends, after we had that long postmortem talk, but he quickly (two days later) acted in a way that I felt was way too close and familiar; then, he was giving me distance and space I think, but this was around the time of the George Floyd murder and subsequent massive protests and outrage, and I Fi felt that I had to not practice white silence, or fail to show the compassion and concern I felt for him during this time, given that he is Black and highly politicized and deeply hurt (through how he shows in long social media posts, the topics of his academic study, and other things) by the harms that America has done and continues to do to Black people, including him. Thus, I reached out to lend him my concern, and this could have then led to how he started again to send me mildly flirtatious content continually, to the point that I was getting nostalgic(?) about the relationship and how i had cared for and admired him, and I wondered if I would ever have a hookup with him in the future, which he'd already made clear that he wanted, if he were ever to see me again. He made a joke that I thought crossed a line, I let him know that and he didn't really apologize, more said he was just exploring possibilities out loud and I don't have to justify what I want to him. So I was feeling back in the bondedness to him that we had cultivated a year prior, like I had to be loyal to him as a friend, but also swatting away his advances because I was focusing on myself and of course knew I wanted to find and be with someone more compatible in the future. I'd already told him I was taking a break from dating...

Things continued like that for another few weeks, he would unpredictably send me slightly flirtatious or friend-like content but then have no interest in having an Fi conversation about any friend-like stuff? So it's like wait... I'm staying connected to this guy and maintaining this idea that 'we kind of have something together; we have shared history' but what am I ACTUALLY getting out of our interactions themselves, besides symbolic meaning-making...?!?!?! Worse, when I would extend myself he would see (open) the message and (sometimes) not reply/indicate like/dislike further, which would drive me into a tailspin/tizzy of disappointment, anxiety and uncertainty - it sort of gave me the feeling of being a very vulnerable being who didnt know if they could count on their caregiver being reliable or something - I'm serious, it really activated this part of my brain that i don't know if had ever been activated that seriously/traumatically in my adult life. (Clearly, an attachment issue.)

I talked it out with my therapist and we came to the conclusion that staying friends wasn't working because I couldn't laugh off his innuendo or overtures and I didn't want to try to pursue something more with him (neither he wanted a relationship with me -- he practices something like long-term friendships with women where they occasionally have sex, and thought he could have that w/ me. When neither one of the friends is otherwise involved). So again I don't see it as his fault, but that it took me a very long time to unravel the connection after I took a chance on him, despite deliberating for weeks over whether to actually reply to his Tinder message (and we'd actually matched a few months prior, and I didn't reply, then made a new acct a few months later...).

I personally feel that we're at a good happy medium by staying social media friends and not having any contact, because the cycle was just unstoppable. If he ever wanted to talk about things I think my instinct would be yes, but I don't know what he would say because he's so open-ended in how he relates to people and I'm so decisive. I never truly let him know that I overlooked gaps in our compatibility or things about him that I wasn't attracted to, and got involved w him anyway, b/c I thought it would just be hurtful. I felt pretty guilty for kind of leading him to believe I was more physically/sexually attracted to him than I was, or just more into him in general, but I guess the good thing is that I think the whole thing fucked me up more than it fucked him up, though he certainly regretted things and wished for more closure and understanding, as we achieved in that long talk, too. I was glad when I saw he'd finally unfollowed my Instagram account because I could sense that he was, also, trying to work some things out that he was confused about within himself, through our relationship, and I think he also got more attached to me (in his own way) than he'd wanted to. So yeah, if he wanted to put forth something, I would consider any greater understanding and closure that could come about it from it, but I don't really feel he has things to apologize for.

[Armitage]

@wonderwoman, I replied privately to your message on Messenger.

[Adam Strange]

I texted a picture of the woman I last dated to my IEI cousin, and my cousin said that she's too young for me.

Hah. What does she know?

Let's let the girl decide, shall we?

[Armitage]

I agree, you don't have to justify who you love to your family. In my case that's different, because I still live at home during my studies, in order to avoid accumulating the infamous student debt. :^P When one has student debt the banks decrease the total mortgage one can borrow, through which it becomes nigh impossible to buy an apartment, let alone a house in the housing market of the upcoming decade.

Anyway, if the girl likes you to, just take the jump. We regret the chances that we did not take more than those that we did take, but lost.

[Adam Strange]

The more I date ESIs, the more I’m starting to think that it’s difficult, if not impossible, to have a long-term relationship with one.

I hope I’m mistaken, but it’s been pretty consistently bad so far.

Postscript.
I probably shouldn’t post my late-night thoughts. They tend towards being dark and bleak when I’m tired.

[Tarnished]

The more I date ESIs, the more I’m starting to think that it’s difficult, if not impossible, to have a long-term relationship with one.

I hope I’m mistaken, but it’s been pretty consistently bad so far.

Postscript.
I probably shouldn’t post my late-night thoughts. They tend towards being dark and bleak when I’m tired.

I think you try a bit too hard. Let thing flow more natural, don't need to sugarcoat/go easy on the ESI all the time (like other ESI said), criticize them when you feel it's right to do so. Little conflics are also needed for building relationship.

[Lord Pixel]

I went on a date with an SLE once, she told me she ran away from home and that to me for some reason was a huge red flag. She also said after sex she just has to leave, she doesn't like to stay, which was disheartening. We also had a typical T vs F debate about whether you should tell people the truth and not watch your tone or whether you should consider how you talk to people even when you tell them the truth.

I dated a SXE once, she liked to act like a tough guy, but funny enough we got together because I started completing her unfinished poems and that seemed to do it for her. She was 2 different people, tough guy when people were around and romantic when everyone was gone. She caught a fit one time and I couldn't take it so I just left, she told me to stop being a bitch and that was the beginning of the end. Musta been a PoLR hit for me, I didn't really know this stuff at the time. She also flirted with another guy in front of my face, idk if she was trying to make me jealous or get back at me for something, maybe she wanted a reaction, anyway once we hooked up I immediately knew this was the wrong girl for me, it was purely off physical attraction and a small fleeting moment of connection, and the whole thing was initiated by her and I didn't oblige.

I dated an ESI, I spoke a ton about it on here, it was amazing, but it didn't last. Same with ILI.

I had a small window of opportunity with the super attractive LSE coworker I had, she had a boyfriend I found out they broke up too late because soon after I found out she had another boyfriend, not shocked she's hot, but it sucked because she's the only girl that I have been that highly attracted to on top of getting along so easily with, most girls that look like her I'm dead nervous, but she was so easy to talk to I had no reason to be when I was around her, I actually felt like I could be myself, which is rare with a girl that looks like. Hard to believe I'll meet someone like that again. I didn't date her to be able to call her the one that got away, but yea she pretty much is.

Where I live now I think there are 2 LSE girls around, one who works as a trainer at the gym (she talks nonstop, like some other LSEs I know), and one at my job who has the same confident commanding tone of voice as the previous LSE co-worker I worked with, it's actually hard to see her as a separate person which is not good, she's not like a continuation or a second shot at that last girl, so I should not approach her like that if I ever did, but not gonna lie there is an urge, I might even accidentally call her by that last girls' name on accident lol, which in my mind is actually a compliment.

All in all, most of my dating experience has been a reminder of my PoLR, before I ever got into actually good and freeing relationships, all the girls I been with would just essentially comment on my low Se without knowing, "You need to be more confident." "Stop being a bitch." "You wouldn't beat up this guy for me?" it put a bad taste in my mouth for a while and did contribute to an overall feeling that maybe I'm not cut out to be with girls, too bad I'm not attracted to guys maybe it'd be easier? That was all before I dated the lovely ESI and ILI, and the ILI and I both met on a typology site which made things really self aware.

dating sucks .

[Lord Pixel]

I also relate alot to the stereotypes people said about LSE. Matter of fact just go to home depot and yea look dumb and lost and the big ol guy who is eager to show off his memory muscles of knowing where everything is in the store, 1. He will be LSE and 2. yes his head will be shaped like a square.

[Tarnished]

I dated a SXE once, she liked to act like a tough guy, but funny enough we got together because I started completing her unfinished poems and that seemed to do it for her. She was 2 different people, tough guy when people were around and romantic when everyone was gone. She caught a fit one time and I couldn't take it so I just left, she told me to stop being a bitch and that was the beginning of the end. Musta been a PoLR hit for me, I didn't really know this stuff at the time. She also flirted with another guy in front of my face, idk if she was trying to make me jealous or get back at me for something, maybe she wanted a reaction, anyway once we hooked up I immediately knew this was the wrong girl for me, it was purely off physical attraction and a small fleeting moment of connection, and the whole thing was initiated by her and I didn't oblige.


dating sucks .

The second girl sound like a SEE. It's hilarious lol

If she's really a SEE, she didn't flirted to make you jealous. Adam already said something about SEE flirting behaviours: (it's only a real problem if she flirting behind your back)
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...tachment-Style

I knew a female SEE and she was always really glad to see me and would greet me with intense Fi friendliness, but after a minute or so, she'd greet the guy behind me with the same enthusiasm and would forget about me.

This kind of behavior would be perfect for an ILI who was Fearful-Avoidant and needs love, but doesn't want a lot of continuous attention.

I also talked with the SEE @HotSauce, and she said that she had dated LIEs and she liked them, but they got jealous of her when they'd go out and she'd flirt with every man in the place, and her betrothed ILI didn't do that. I thought to myself, "Yeah, girl, that would piss me off, too." But I could see how an ILI would be OK with that. He'd know beforehand that she would flirt and talk to everyone just for her personal entertainment as a super-extrovert, and he'd also know that at the end of the evening, she'd be going home with him.

If she's SEE, then obvious she don't want you bitching too much, because she's the only one who is allowed bitching about everything ~

[Lord Pixel]

The second girl sound like a SEE. It's hilarious lol

If she's really a SEE, she didn't flirted to make you jealous. Adam already said something about SEE flirting behaviours: (it's only a real problem if she flirting behind your back)
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...tachment-Style



If she's SEE, then obvious she don't want you bitching too much, because she's the only one who is allowed bitching about everything ~

She coulda been SEE. The flirting was heavy flirtting liek out of line, she was literally sharing ice with another guy by using her mouth to put it into his mouth, would an ILI be ok with stuff like that?!

And no she didn't get mad at me "bitching" she called me a bitch because she was yelling at me and I left her apartment, she was calling me a pussy for not yelling back at her. She wanted me to be a tough guy I guess.

[Adam Strange]

She coulda been SEE. The flirting was heavy flirtting liek out of line, she was literally sharing ice with another guy by using her mouth to put it into his mouth, would an ILI be ok with stuff like that?!

And no she didn't get mad at me "bitching" she called me a bitch because she was yelling at me and I left her apartment, she was calling me a pussy for not yelling back at her. She wanted me to be a tough guy I guess.

Almost all of the ILIs that I know are germophobes.

[Tarnished]

She coulda been SEE. The flirting was heavy flirtting liek out of line, she was literally sharing ice with another guy by using her mouth to put it into his mouth, would an ILI be ok with stuff like that?!

And no she didn't get mad at me "bitching" she called me a bitch because she was yelling at me and I left her apartment, she was calling me a pussy for not yelling back at her. She wanted me to be a tough guy I guess.

No of course it's not lol

[Toro]

I remember years ago I had a dating profile on a website that I don't even think exists anymore. It had one picture of me and it was me looking at the camera deadpan not smiling. When I messaged my now wife and she asked me why I had only one picture and I wasn't even smiling in it. I had to take more pictures to send her where I was smiling to convince her I wasn't a catfish.

[Adam Strange]

The most unnerving but funny IRL experience was having two guys almost get into a fight over me at a bar, just because I smiled in their direction.

Now I try to limit smiling in public, lmao

@EIE, If you'd dropped your house keys and bent to pick them up, they'd have killed every other male in the bar.

[Bethanyclaire]

I remember years ago I had a dating profile on a website that I don't even think exists anymore. It had one picture of me and it was me looking at the camera deadpan not smiling. When I messaged my now wife and she asked me why I had only one picture and I wasn't even smiling in it. I had to take more pictures to send her where I was smiling to convince her I wasn't a catfish.

that’s interesting..I really do find it a chore setting up my profile :/ sometimes I’ve thought about asking people to send more pics.. oh an SLE asked me once and I said yeah but he wouldn’t sent one back (normal pics not dirty ones lol)

[Armitage]

Catfish are definitely a big problem in online dating.

[Armitage]

If it were me I imagine that I would find friends' input less persuasive and telling if they were giving it to me in the online dating scenario, and they didnt have any experience with the person I'm dating themselves. I would find it easier to write off what they say because only I have the deeper context of the interactions.

Doesn't anyone wonder what is meant by the saying ENTj and ESTj are swayed by the opinions of their friends towards people? This is what valued, low dimensional Fi behaves like.

Today I read this comment by Timber and it turns out that me asking my friends for a second opinion on people I'm getting close to is actually more common than I thought, or at least for my sociotype. Funny how that works.

[Adam Strange]

2 former one night stands have contacted me in like 3 days. I ignored the first and plan to talk/chill with the second. I am curious to see if he wants something from me. Lol

It’s more likely that he wants to give you something.

[Armitage]

So this is where all the ESIs go! LOL

[Adam Strange]

In all seriousness, I think it's easier to attract mirage than duality for most people. Like I bet there's some magneticism between you and some LSIs... But the oomph isn't always there.

@EIE, I find it much easier to attract LSI Mirage females than ESI Duals.

With Mirage, I feel like if I just hang out around them, sex will happen. With Duals, I struggle at every step. Finding them, meeting them, hanging out with them, waiting for them to see that I have value to them, every damn step of the way I have to push to make it happen.

End of a Mirage date:
LIE, standing outside the LSI’s door: “I had a great time. Thanks!”
LIE extends hand to shake LSI’s hand. LSI takes hand, pulls LIE in for an unexpected kiss.
LSI: “Do you want to come in for a drink?”

End of a Dual date:
LIE, standing outside the ESI’s door: “I had a great time. Thanks!”
LIE extends hand to shake ESI’s hand. ESI looks at LIE’s hand as if it might contaminate her, but shakes hand.
LIE: “Are you available for lunch next Saturday?”
ESI thinks about this: “Yes.”
LIE: OK, I’ll call you on Friday to confirm.”
ESI: “OK.” ESI then retreats into her house.
Friday, ESI calls to say she can’t make it. She might be available again in two or three weeks. LIE should call again at that time.
Rinse, repeat.
After three consecutive date cancellations, the ESI finally shows up for a date out of guilt, she says.
LIE wonders what the hell he’s doing with this woman.

[Adam Strange]

But the date itself Adam, is ESI date way superior than LSI

@one, I'd say that a Dual date in public is far superior to a Mirage date in public, but so far, the Mirage sex has been consistently better than Dual sex.* Consistently.**

@EIE is correct in relegating her Mirage ESIs to "Friends With Benefits". Trying to get along with a Mirage in public is a huge pain in the ass.


*Opinion based on two Mirage women and probably four Dual women.

** I don't mind this at all, though. I'm willing to give up some of the greatness-level sex with Mirage to gain the steady support and mutual compatibility of a Dual.

[Adam Strange]

I have the opposite problem... My advice: ESIs are like cats... They come to you.

I must not be setting out the right kind of cat food.

Any advice for me regarding LSI? Lol

Yes. Absolutely.

Never lie to them. You can tell them any crazy thing you want, but it better be true or you are done.

I was having a first date in a very nice restaurant with an LSI (because she is smart and I need some smart female friends) and she said "What's your deal?", meaning I wasn't coming on to her the way she expected.
I said, "I'm looking to get married, but not to you."
She got this outraged look in her eyes and said "I feel like I should just get up and leave right now!"
I said "No, no, you don't understand."
At that moment, the check came and it was way over $100 and I paid it without blinking.
I continued, "Look, I asked you out because you're smart and a good conversationalist, but if we started having sex, the sex would be great and we'd last three months."

She thought about that for a moment. I'm sure she was measuring my response to the check and my direct honesty and she thought, "In three months, I can change his mind."

Lol.

Once again, Never. Lie. To. Them.

As an EIE, you do emotional manipulation the way I do fact manipulation. You build social interactions, I build complex weapons. Don't let your natural talent for subterfuge stray into deception. An LSI is uniquely equipped to detect deception, and they WILL find you out, and if you outright lied to them, or deceived them in any important way, they will cast you out and all your skills will not get you back in.

[Adam Strange]

Also, @Adam Strange I funnily learned that he was bisexual through his comedy routine, talking about sucking off other guys' dicks, going on Grindr, and coming out as gay when he was younger.. that was a bit of a surprise. Hahahaha

Better insist on an up-to-date social disease health certificate. (I do.) There are things out there that drugs won't cure, and if a woman has them, she just put herself out of reach for me. And I'm probably not the only guy who feels this way.

[Adam Strange]

True. I got a strong sense that he gets checked regularly.

I told the last LSI that I was having sex with that she could have sex with other guys if she wanted, but she'd better tell me if she did before we had sex again. In that case, I planned to wait until she had a new test, but she never did (that I know of) have sex with other guys while we were together.

Just an honest exchange.

I got tested after I stopped dating her and got a clean bill of health, so either she was faithful (I think she was) or I was lucky.

[Adam Strange]

I only ever got one STD - HPV which they only test for through a pap smear (every 3-5 years) and there's no test for men. So all my partners technically had a clean bill of health and I only found it on a gyno visit. It can still be spread through condom use and there's no official cure other than to wait it out.

I cleared it out of my system but it's an annoying STD.

Moral of the story, there's always a risk no matter what you do.

I, too, once got an STD. It was from banging a girl in the bayou. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp9G0zkorio

Fortunately, there was a shot for that.

[Armitage]

Better insist on an up-to-date social disease health certificate. (I do.) There are things out there that drugs won't cure, and if a woman has them, she just put herself out of reach for me. And I'm probably not the only guy who feels this way.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't like the whole hookup culture of the gay community.

[Armitage]

I have the opposite problem... My advice: ESIs are like cats... They come to you. Be receptive to hints.

You know that you're telling that to Te-doms, right? We're practically blind for subtle hints, because at least I myself would keep second-guessing if the guy actually expressed interest into me. Had I been in your position, I would have gone to the comedy routine, but would never have made a move, because I wouldn't even be sure if it counted as a date to begin with.

Any advice for me regarding LSIs? Lol

LSIs are chill dudes. Invite them to something action-oriented and adventurous, because they crave the adrenaline. Anything sporty will do from hiking to kayaking, and from shooting bow and arrow to swimming. Even going bowling might be a great blast, but be aware of their competitive streak. They love it when someone shows to be their equal, because it makes the competition more challenging to them, as well as showing their date to be accomplished. They don't like being beaten, though, or at least not being beaten by a large margin. When there's a close difference, they'll probably challenge you to revanche, so they can win this time from you, settle the score, and regain their masculinity. I find their matches fun, because they stimulate me to go out of my comfort zone. At the same time, they let me make the plans and I listen to what they want. They never force me to do something that I don't want, whereas SLEs tend to push me too far.

The only thing that I miss from LSIs, in order for dates with them to be ideal is the emotional warmth. One LSI-Ti date for instance mentioned how we had good in-depth conversations, whereas I just thought: "We have only spoken about your work and my study, I haven't even started to emotionally connect."" Their mileage of a "good conversation" is generally some very concrete topic that they're interested in, oftentimes cars, that they passionately enjoy discussing. Abstract conversations about politics they generally only enjoy in small doses.
Overall, LSIs are likable guys and gals who are very chill and relaxed, until there's something to compete for, as then they go all in. At those moments they turn all athlete, which I find very impressive. Every LSI I have so far gotten to know I have enjoyed hanging out with. Oftentimes, though, we end up being more like Gym buddies or gaming friends, than lovers.

We have most fun together when doing some activities together, or just chilling. Netflixing and cuddling up is also fun with them, but only as long as they allow me to pick the movie, because I'm not going to watch Fast and Furious 9,999,999, yet another Purge movie, or anything along the lines of Ted. A couple of years ago I made a movie list for the movie meetups I have with one of my best friends, who's a LSI-Ti. I only enjoy watching movies as a social activity and because we couldn't easily meet up during the pandemic, over the course of the past years that list has accumulated almost 700 movies on it. Next week my LSI-Ti friend and I will take of the next one.

[Adam Strange]

It really wasn't a date and I wasn't sure, but I made a subtle move. On further thought, he liked me the first time around, because I allowed him to freely express himself without much judgement, he told me about his vulnerabilities, and I gave him words of encouragement. We ended up laughing a lot about the absurdities of life. He was so drunk that he mentioned that he wanted a relationship with me and possibly a kid someday (after we had sex). I just laughed it off.

So I guess, I know that LIEs sometimes want to be the "fixers" but I think as long as you don't try to fix the ESI and just allow them to be, they will gravitate towards you. The reason why they frustrate my natural preferences is that I want to be the emotionally expressive one in the dynamic. Lol. But overall, I do have a soft spot for the type.


Thanks for the LSI insights. I will keep those in mind.

Nice point that you guys were talking about the absurdities of life. I think I've seen ESIs make forays into those kinds of conversations before, but I didn't take the bait, apparently.

I've noticed that when I'm around ESIs, I don't try to fix them. I don't even make suggestions most of the time. Rather, I just listen to what they say and at most, I might venture an opinion on it, but I generally assume that they know what they are doing.

I don't assume this to be true for most other types.

[Armitage]

Yes, I neither see a need to "fix" healthy ESIs. At most what I do is provide some studying tips as a senior student, which are sollicited to boot.