Adventures in Dating

[Braingel]

@SacredKnowing @Tallmo

I believe you are looking at art from two vastly different angles of pure fine, detailed sensory art and abstract art like writing..

I don’t really believe it’s good to equate art to a certain club, because there are so many forms, it is nuanced. I would overall agree that fine arts is more sensory. This recently, I took an art class and it was literally all physical observation still life, and I absolutely hated it. Not only did I hate the physical details, I just can’t track my physical surroundings well, and that shit was hard. Was too hard to get the still life objects in accurate detail and their form. My natural form is symbolism (didn’t know term until art class), which I drew a few things, but wanted refine my ability and well, I definitely don’t have it in me for that too often.


Something like literature and poetry (my natural artistic form, poetry more) is more overall NF, but the content of the poetry matters, any club can write poetry.

[Still Alive]

any club can write poetry.

can they?

[Braingel]

can they?

Yes, it is more the content of the poetry that matters rather than of the focus to write poetry itself. It would be less likely for a person to make a career out of poetry that isn’t an NF, but you will still have those few sensory artists who write more about their subjective sensations or of physical observations in their poetry (my own poetry has do with visions for the future, my emotions, typing unrelated concepts into one mean, and my own spin and intuition of the afterlife). NT’s write poetry more about their own mental processes and of patterns and themes they notice in life..

[Still Alive]

Yes, it is more the content of the poetry that matters rather than of the focus to write poetry itself. It would be less likely for a person to make a career out of poetry that isn’t an NF, but you will still have those few sensory artists who write more about their subjective sensations or of physical observations in their poetry (my own poetry has do with visions for the future, my emotions, typing unrelated concepts into one mean, and my own spin and intuition of the afterlife). NT’s write poetry more about their own mental processes and of patterns and themes they notice in life..

you kinda gave the same answer as Tallmo years ago who said that sensing type art is more raw

[Braingel]

you kinda gave the same answer as Tallmo years ago who said that sensing type art is more raw

Don’t know if raw would be the exact word.. You probably mean it in a “simple” yet rich of natural details out in reality. I can see rawness applying to more than one context. Emotional rawness, for instance..

What I would call sensory art is tangible, concrete.. Tactile, is the best word, probably.

Raw as in natural in a touchable sense, yeah, it works; I just dislike the word for the context, because something needs not be in a “raw” sensory detail form to have a rawness to it. For the art form specifically, the subject, what I came up with for adjective is better… Raw is just an adjective quality that can use for art, without saying something that pertains strictly to the category of art itself which is the impression I got in your wording.

[Tallmo]

@SacredKnowing @Tallmo

I believe you are looking at art from two vastly different angles of pure fine, detailed sensory art and abstract art like writing..

I don’t really believe it’s good to equate art to a certain club, because there are so many forms, it is nuanced. I would overall agree that fine arts is more sensory. This recently, I took an art class and it was literally all physical observation still life, and I absolutely hated it. Not only did I hate the physical details, I just can’t track my physical surroundings well, and that shit was hard. Was too hard to get the still life objects in accurate detail and their form. My natural form is symbolism (didn’t know term until art class), which I drew a few things, but wanted refine my ability and well, I definitely don’t have it in me for that too often.

Even realistic art painting is a very "abstract" process. You can't paint things just how they look. There is always some kind of representation that is very hard to explain. But I don't know enough painters to make too many conclusions about this. However, it has long been pretty clear to me that EIE is one of the most artistic types. They have the ability for expression and Fe gives them a sense of style and an ability to feel them themselves into the object they study, that can be many things depending on the art form.

Something like literature and poetry (my natural artistic form, poetry more) is more overall NF, but the content of the poetry matters, any club can write poetry.

Poetry is very much intuitive, of course any type can in some sense write poetry, but the same can be said about anything.

[Braingel]

Even realistic art painting is a very "abstract" process. You can't paint things just how they look. There is always some kind of representation that is very hard to explain. But I don't know enough painters to make too many conclusions about this. However, it has long been pretty clear to me that EIE is one of the most artistic types. They have the ability for expression and Fe gives them a sense of style and an ability to feel them themselves into the object they study, that can be many things depending on the art form.



Poetry is very much intuitive, of course any type can in some sense write poetry, but the same can be said about anything.

Mm.. There are a plethora of sensory fine artists. I agree that all art can potentially have an abstract form, with configuring composition (colors, style, etc), but I don’t believe it all necessarily goes to intuition. If anything, I’d put Si as a subjective sensory impression that can lend itself into numerous art forms— fine arts, design (comfort and space), culinary arts, fabric arts..

I am a very intuitive/Ni person, and I had a very hard time with the still life where it literally forces you to copy what is observed. I do far better with abstract art, I have always had a symbolism-surrealism type of art, prior to knowing those terms. I just don’t prefer to draw and poetry is my most gifted expression. I never had learn anything about poetry to be gifted in it, and my ideas behind drawing are gifted, putting them into physical detail form is a hardship for myself..

[Braingel]

Mm.. There are a plethora of sensory fine artists. I agree that all art can potentially have an abstract form, with configuring composition (colors, style, etc), but I don’t believe it all necessarily goes to intuition. If anything, I’d put Si as a subjective sensory impression that can lend itself into numerous art forms— fine arts, design (comfort and space), culinary arts, fabric arts..

I am a very intuitive/Ni person, and I had a very hard time with the still life where it literally forces you to copy what is observed. I do far better with abstract art, I have always had a symbolism-surrealism type of art, prior to knowing those terms. I just don’t prefer to draw and poetry is my most gifted expression. I never had learn anything about poetry to be gifted in it, and my ideas behind drawing are gifted, putting them into physical detail form is a hardship for myself..

(Abstract in this form having do with something that isn’t tangible in terms of process and something that is directly concrete; it ties in something that is subjective. But why does all abstraction by this definition have be intuition? Intuition, I would define as an ability to focus on big picture dynamics and combining concepts into either an expansion (Ne) or narrowed in theming form (Ni) that is devoid of thing sensory. Si is a very abstract function in the sense of it being subjective. It is abstract through its concrete internalization being something that doesn’t base on external reality, but rather of how one internalizes their own sensory experiences and forms a database of it. It is one of the most purely original functions because of this alone, and arguably the most subjective having do with direct personal experience/how someone has internalized things. This is way Si doms often get something completely off base or something differing, because they try storehouse a stimulus into their already accumulated ones- what reminds and evokes a memory from their psychomotor means, and it doesn’t matter if it’s right or not.

You cannot “touch” someone’s direct internalization and how they somatize stimulus. You can expose them to stimulus, but you definitely can’t touch how they’re going to be reminded or relate it to..

There are varied forms of abstraction, the least abstraction function is probably Se— a concrete function that dwells direct in the perception of external reality. Internal realms are abstract in that you cannot just take out and touch someone’s inner world, and they merge outside concepts with their own inner.

Juan Sandoval, the creator of vultology, is definitely an Si predominant in a cognitive realm, and his system is abstract enough, in that it’s removed from reality and merges its definitions with things that you can’t perceive directly in reality. It’s a literal database of Juan’s own database of how he’s internalized and been reminded of past experiences, yes, sensory concrete data, but still of these things trying tie into his own archive of data and so he makes concepts through a reminding of or trying to merge things into his own.

Concreteness has a do with something that dwells in reality, and an Si user absolutely doesn’t concern reality, they internalize things in reality and merge them into what they’ve already internalized and create from this process, so you get things made by Si doms that have little relation to actually do with reality, which anything that doesn’t connect to reality is abstract.

Si is not traditionally abstract, because it still relies on a concrete, non expansive or theme idea that moves beyond reality past its sensation or concreteness, but often having no basis in direct reality/what goes on/is (Se), it is abstract and removed from reality often.

[Adam Strange]

Like a thirsting man in the middle of a desert, I got a takeout salad from a restaurant and fell in love with the cashier.

I'd say that this indicates that I'm not in a good place, in terms of "present relationship satisfaction".


The plan is to live my best life and see who shows up. I wish my plan would work faster.

[spacious]

Like a thirsting man in the middle of a desert, I got a takeout salad from a restaurant and fell in love with the cashier.

...

The plan is to live my best life and see who shows up. I wish my plan would work faster.

I can relate in terms of proportion between stimulus and response. Sorta.

I'd say that this indicates that I'm not in a good place, in terms of "present relationship satisfaction".

Sx first problems - me, too.

[Echo]

Like a thirsting man in the middle of a desert, I got a takeout salad from a restaurant and fell in love with the cashier.

I'd say that this indicates that I'm not in a good place, in terms of "present relationship satisfaction".


The plan is to live my best life and see who shows up. I wish my plan would work faster.

Ask her out! Whats the worst that can happen? next time you go in, just give her a cash tip with a note folded in it. When I was 23 I did that with a waiter and it worked. he wound up being super boring, but still it worked

[Adam Strange]

Ask her out! Whats the worst that can happen? next time you go in, just give her a cash tip with a note folded in it. When I was 23 I did that with a waiter and it worked. he wound up being super boring, but still it worked

What did the note say? Did you ask him to call you?

I'm more direct than that. My approach would be to return to talk to her once or twice to see if she thinks I'm a Possible, and if so, then I'd ask her if she wants to go for a walk near the canoe livery, to give her an opportunity to either choose a walk around the lake or to rent a canoe, followed by an afternoon meal at the Gandy Dancer restaurant.

However, I'm still waffling on whether I should pursue her. She strongly resembles the ESI-Se artist whom I know, and the Artist chose a life-mate who was an introverted thinker (an LSI, I believe) over a Dual. I think that when an ESI gets a lot of Se, it turns her more towards being an SEE and she then finds introverts to be more compatible than LIE Duals.

Anyway, I'm still considering this. There's quite an age difference, too, but when I spoke to her, we had an easy, compatible interaction, and I think that most women are attracted to comfortable kindness, intelligence, and good providers. Not necessarily in that order.

[Tallmo]

What did the note say? Did you ask him to call you?

I'm more direct than that. My approach would be to return to talk to her once or twice to see if she thinks I'm a Possible, and if so, then I'd ask her if she wants to go for a walk near the canoe livery, to give her an opportunity to either choose a walk around the lake or to rent a canoe, followed by an afternoon meal at the Gandy Dancer restaurant.

However, I'm still waffling on whether I should pursue her. She strongly resembles the ESI-Se artist whom I know, and the Artist chose a life-mate who was an introverted thinker (an LSI, I believe) over a Dual. I think that when an ESI gets a lot of Se, it turns her more towards being an SEE and she then finds introverts to be more compatible than LIE Duals.

Anyway, I'm still considering this. There's quite an age difference, too, but when I spoke to her, we had an easy, compatible interaction, and I think that most women are attracted to comfortable kindness, intelligence, and good providers. Not necessarily in that order.

Please do it and remember to report back to this thread. And if she slaps you it will be a great story and maybe an indication of her Se.

[Echo]

What did the note say? Did you ask him to call you?

I'm more direct than that. My approach would be to return to talk to her once or twice to see if she thinks I'm a Possible, and if so, then I'd ask her if she wants to go for a walk near the canoe livery, to give her an opportunity to either choose a walk around the lake or to rent a canoe, followed by an afternoon meal at the Gandy Dancer restaurant.

However, I'm still waffling on whether I should pursue her. She strongly resembles the ESI-Se artist whom I know, and the Artist chose a life-mate who was an introverted thinker (an LSI, I believe) over a Dual. I think that when an ESI gets a lot of Se, it turns her more towards being an SEE and she then finds introverts to be more compatible than LIE Duals.

Anyway, I'm still considering this. There's quite an age difference, too, but when I spoke to her, we had an easy, compatible interaction, and I think that most women are attracted to comfortable kindness, intelligence, and good providers. Not necessarily in that order.

I just wrote “call me” with a little heart and my number. And he did! It was simple but it worked, and there’s no embarrassing downside if it doesn’t except maybe avoiding that restaurant in the future.
Age difference only matters if you make it matter. if she’s into it and you’re respectful of the difference in life experience, that should be fine. You definitely don’t seem like one of those guys who only dates young women because they're easy to control. your plan sounds good. Only note I would add would be maybe not going for a walk by the lake and keeping it to a very public place for first date. Most guys don’t need to think about that sort of thing, but it can make women nervous to go somewhere secluded with a man they don’t know very well. Better to save the lake for date 2.

[Adam Strange]

I just wrote “call me” with a little heart and my number. And he did! It was simple but it worked, and there’s no embarrassing downside if it doesn’t except maybe avoiding that restaurant in the future.

Once, when I was in a bar, a woman had a friend of hers hand me just such a note. I called her the next day and got a recording. I left a message, but she never responded.
Sobering up can be a shocking experience.

Age difference only matters if you make it matter. if she’s into it and you’re respectful of the difference in life experience, that should be fine. You definitely don’t seem like one of those guys who only dates young women because they're easy to control.

I have found, time and time again, that the age of a person (past about 24) doesn't affect the way that I interact with them. ITRs are really age-independent. Age differences seem to matter in only two ways.
One, there is a difference in social landmarks. For example, every person has favorite songs and movies and television shows, and which ones they are depend on when you were born. This matters if you live your life around social media, which I do not.
Two, there is the unfavorable reaction from strangers (and some friends) that you get when you are "with" someone where there is obviously an age difference. This matters if you give a shit about what other people think, which I do not.

I was kind of shocked to read that some guys date younger women "because they are easier to control". I'm not looking to control a woman. Rather, I need her advice, and I need a friend who has my back. The stronger and wiser she is, the better.

your plan sounds good. Only note I would add would be maybe not going for a walk by the lake and keeping it to a very public place for first date. Most guys don’t need to think about that sort of thing, but it can make women nervous to go somewhere secluded with a man they don’t know very well. Better to save the lake for date 2.

That makes sense. I thought of that, briefly, but most women seem to be able to size me up immediately and conclude that I'm not an axe-murderer. Nevertheless, I'll save the walk around the lake for the second date.

[MarshalBell]

Navigating the ups and downs of dating can be tricky. Sometimes, it feels like there’s a whole new set of rules to learn with every person you meet. If you’re trying to spice up your dating life, you might find it interesting to explore how technology can play a role. For instance, sexting AI can provide unique ways to keep conversations engaging and interactive, offering fresh ideas on how to communicate. This can be especially useful if you're looking for new ways to connect or enhance your interactions.

[Northstar]

Navigating the ups and downs of dating can be tricky. Sometimes, it feels like there’s a whole new set of rules to learn with every person you meet. If you’re trying to spice up your dating life, you might find it interesting to explore how technology can play a role.

Fuck off

[Echo]

Well, the guy I thought might be my dual turned out to be another SEE. I've gotten pretty good at spotting activators, but I can never get a relationship off the ground with them. I think our goals are too different. I've met one guy I'm pretty sure is a dual but unfortunately I'm not physically attracted to him. Does anyone know how to spot an ESE man?

[spacious]

Well, the guy I thought might be my dual turned out to be another SEE. I've gotten pretty good at spotting activators, but I can never get a relationship off the ground with them. I think our goals are too different. I've met one guy I'm pretty sure is a dual but unfortunately I'm not physically attracted to him. Does anyone know how to spot an ESE man?

@Echo, check this thread for some material that may be useful: How to Catch an Alpha NT or Alpha SF (the16types.info). If i remember/come across other ones, I'll share. (I've been here longer than you have) :3

[Adam Strange]

Well, the guy I thought might be my dual turned out to be another SEE. I've gotten pretty good at spotting activators, but I can never get a relationship off the ground with them. I think our goals are too different. I've met one guy I'm pretty sure is a dual but unfortunately I'm not physically attracted to him. Does anyone know how to spot an ESE man?

@Echo, I know two males whom I identify as ESEs. They both look like maritime sea captains; kind of square, solid, like they would be standing, braced against a gale, and they want to be in charge of their ship. Both are generally, decently nice to be around, although my ESI buddy would disagree with that statement.

One used to be a radical union organizer in the print shops in town, until no one would hire him and he had to start his own printing business. He's kind of gruff and seems to be always low-level outraged at people who care about money (me). He's very conscious of social graces. His wife, I think, is an Alpha SF.

The second used to remodel upscale houses in California, but then injured himself on the job, moved to Ann Arbor, worked in a bespoke pottery store for a while, and then got another job remodeling houses. Both guys know very little about engineering, but both have a fantastic appreciation for surface-level aesthetics. The color, the weight, the form, the history, the story behind objects are what they focus on. (Si, of course.)
The second guy has a girlfriend who doesn't live with him. I've seen her once or twice but have never been introduced. She seems quiet as a mouse, although she's physically big.

Strangely enough, I also know a few female ESEs, and one runs Three Chairs in Ann Arbor, which is an upscale furnishings supplier, and the other owns an upscale print shop called Kolossos. A third works in one of the Kinkos print centers.

So, ESEs seem to be into interior decoration and printing. I imagine that the printers are there for the calligraphic aspects of printing. They are all about surface impressions and how your environment makes you feel.

[Adam Strange]

My ESI-Fi buddy has been divorced for a long enough time to want to start dating again.

He should be looking for this woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peNNgRFA-FI,
because his stated ideal is this woman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qLWZ3As0q0,

But female LIEs are extremely rare and he doesn't know how to find them or what to look for, so he has to fall back on getting connected through friends or acquaintances from past jobs. And since my friend has friends of all types, an ILE named Mark, whom he knew from a past job, connected him with a woman whom Mark recommended highly. Her name is Sue.

My ESI buddy has been seeing Sue for half a year or so, and he likes her, but he said that there is something missing. He doesn't know exactly what, and he described her as an entirely nice person, and he doesn't want to criticize or seem ungrateful for her attention, but she just doesn't have some undefinable spark that he needs.

His ILE friend, Mark, and his wife, came over with Sue to have dinner at my ESI buddy's house, and the ESI cooked dinner, after which they all went out on the veranda and talked about religion and baptism and how if a child isn't baptized, they can't get into Heaven.

"They don't sound very smart to me", I said.

"Hah!. Adam, I didn't want to say anything, but I'm an atheist, and I think Mark is Catholic, and so is Sue, and Mark's wife is Protestant, so I just let them talk. But I was basically out of that discussion."

He said that he feels that his relationship with Sue, while cordial, isn't all that he wants, and since he's not getting any younger, why waste time with a person who isn't fulfilling?

I sense an impending doom. Lol.

My ESI buddy said that he wants a woman who is "feisty, edgy, with a dark sense of humor". Lol. Who could that be? And, more interesting, why, when he knows nothing of Socionics, does he feel an attraction to what is pretty clearly a female LIE?

He sent me a picture of Sue, and I'd guess, from VI, that she is SEI.

From https://www.meetch.app/en/calculator/

ESI-SEI Relationship Calculator:

Quasi-identity

Low compatibility


Coexisting with a complete misunderstanding of each other. The relationship is rather peaceful. Partners neither criticise each others’ weaknesses, nor compete with each other. However the equality is missing. The partner seems to be less capable, but still achieve more in areas where you fail to do so. Moreover, partners formulate the same idea in different ways. Interpreting their partners information in their own way which is different to how it was meant. Unproductive disputes often happen between them because they cannot grasp each other's thought process. In the absence of common interests or projects the communication gradually ceases to exist.



You know, if he'd just have sent me a picture of her at the beginning of their relationship, or taken a Socionics test (It's Just for fun!) with her, he could have used those six wasted months more profitably. As in, talking to the female LIE manager at my bank.
The LIE bank manager is married, but
1. My ESI friend could use the experience of simply being exposed to female LIEs, and
2. She might be married to a dipshit and she might be interested in an upgrade. After all, half of all marriages fail. People make all kinds of mistakes when they start out dating.

[Tallmo]

Quasi-identity

Low compatibility


Coexisting with a complete misunderstanding of each other. The relationship is rather peaceful. Partners neither criticise each others’ weaknesses, nor compete with each other. However the equality is missing. The partner seems to be less capable, but still achieve more in areas where you fail to do so. Moreover, partners formulate the same idea in different ways. Interpreting their partners information in their own way which is different to how it was meant. Unproductive disputes often happen between them because they cannot grasp each other's thought process. In the absence of common interests or projects the communication gradually ceases to exist.

Yes, quasi-identity is really bad, and imo confusing. I've been with two ESI, both before I found Socionics. One reason I got into it could be that my mother and my aunt are ESI, so I've grown up with ESIs around. It's one of those ITR that worked as a reference point for me when typing myself and trying to make sense of it all, because I could easily see that I had experienced it and I felt the descriptions were very relateable.

Stay away from quasi!

[spacious]

Yes, quasi-identity is really bad, and imo confusing. I've been with two ESI, both before I found Socionics. One reason I got into it could be that my mother and my aunt are ESI, so I've grown up with ESIs around. It's one of those ITR that worked as a reference point for me when typing myself and trying to make sense of it all, because I could easily see that I had experienced it and I felt the descriptions were very relateable.

Stay away from quasi!

I saw Tallmo's post about checking back in two weeks to see where people are before setting the next book club date. Obviously it's totally fine and I'm only an outside observer--from a socionics perspective I was like omg, this would stress me out from someone, because it's like what ILIs do in my experience with not setting final dates yet. AH (to be clear, I struggle in leading up to deadlines, in some sense I live and die by them.)

[Tallmo]

I saw Tallmo's post about checking back in two weeks to see where people are before setting the next book club date. Obviously it's totally fine and I'm only an outside observer--from a socionics perspective I was like omg, this would stress me out from someone, because it's like what ILIs do in my experience with not setting final dates yet. AH (to be clear, I struggle in leading up to deadlines, in some sense I live and die by them.)

Yes, I know that ESIs sometimes want very clear directions. The way I see it you can simply set your own deadline. If I give you 2 weeks and then I'll check back, you can just make it your deadline and take responsibility for moving things forward.

But the bottom line is that we all struggle with this in our inferior function. We have to understand that THE PROBLEM IS IN MYSELF.

[spacious]

You know, if he'd just have sent me a picture of her at the beginning of their relationship, or taken a Socionics test (It's Just for fun!) with her, he could have used those six wasted months more profitably. As in, talking to the female LIE manager at my bank.
The LIE bank manager is married, but
1. My ESI friend could use the experience of simply being exposed to female LIEs, and
2. She might be married to a dipshit and she might be interested in an upgrade. After all, half of all marriages fail. People make all kinds of mistakes when they start out dating.

If he'd_________________ at the beginning of ___________, or [alternative option]. he could have used [long time period] more profitably. As in, [direct action to get closer to the goal that the dual can see].

Classic constructive critique of a dual. I feel a little sensitive to it because I can imagine it applied to me. It's vexing how people can be really stubborn and have to do things 'their way'. I don't know. I think I'm very open to feedback, my ILI friend said maybe even too much so. But as someone on the forum said, finding the right kind of feedback can be extremely difficult and utterly crucial for an Fi lead's success, imo and ime.

[Adam Strange]

If he'd_________________ at the beginning of ___________, or [alternative option]. he could have used [long time period] more profitably. As in, [direct action to get closer to the goal that the dual can see].

Classic constructive critique of a dual. I feel a little sensitive to it because I can imagine it applied to me. It's vexing how people can be really stubborn and have to do things 'their way'. I don't know. I think I'm very open to feedback, my ILI friend said maybe even too much so. But as someone on the forum said, finding the right kind of feedback can be extremely difficult and utterly crucial for an Fi lead's success, imo and ime.

Actually, I wrote the above to emphasize the idea that knowing a person's Sociotype can help them to avoid a lot of wasted or misdirected effort, and my statement was addressed to the readers of this forum.

In reality, I would never give my friend advice on whom to date or not date. That's up to him, not me. However, after he has decided on a course of action, I can step in and do a quick debrief. ("That lack of excitement that you felt with her wasn't going to change, and the same thing would happen with almost any person who has a similar personality.")

Well, I might point out a female LIE to him if I see one, but he has already said that Kate Beckinsale's Selena is his Ideal, so I wouldn't exactly be influencing him to go in a direction that he didn't already want to go in.

[spacious]

Actually, I wrote the above to emphasize the idea that knowing a person's Sociotype can help them to avoid a lot of wasted or misdirected effort, and my statement was addressed to the readers of this forum.

In reality, I would never give my friend advice on whom to date or not date. That's up to him, not me. However, after he has decided on a course of action, I can step in and do a quick debrief. ("That lack of excitement that you felt with her wasn't going to change, and the same thing would happen with almost any person who has a similar personality.")

Well, I might point out a female LIE to him if I see one, but he has already said that Kate Beckinsale's Selena is his Ideal, so I wouldn't exactly be influencing him to go in a direction that he didn't already want to go in.

Thanks for elaborating. I was being sensitive and projecting because I recently received feedback that followed a similar structure ('If you had done X, you could've saved yourself time') from the LIE's Superego, an ESE, who shares the same cognitive thinking style. I agree that an LIE would not try to overstep what an ESI is aiming for in an Fi sense, at least I would presume not. "That's up to him, not me." Love it! That's very respectful and not paternalistic. (My parents are LIE and ESE, so some of my experiences with the types are infused with parental energies or lack thereof.)

[spacious]

You know, if he'd just have sent me a picture of her at the beginning of their relationship, or taken a Socionics test (It's Just for fun!) with her, he could have used those six wasted months more profitably. As in, talking to the female LIE manager at my bank.
The LIE bank manager is married, but
1. My ESI friend could use the experience of simply being exposed to female LIEs, and
2. She might be married to a dipshit and she might be interested in an upgrade. After all, half of all marriages fail. People make all kinds of mistakes when they start out dating.

yes, I'm currently playing the long game.

[Echo]

Now actually thinking of trying a community meetup (despite it being against every one of my LII instincts to venture into the real world to meet other humans). Anyone have any ideas what kind of event an ESE male or ILE female (my friends still looking too) would go to?

[Lord Pixel]

Now actually thinking of trying a community meetup (despite it being against every one of my LII instincts to venture into the real world to meet other humans). Anyone have any ideas what kind of event an ESE male or ILE female (my friends still looking too) would go to?

ESE, cooking definitely.

[Adam Strange]

Now actually thinking of trying a community meetup (despite it being against every one of my LII instincts to venture into the real world to meet other humans). Anyone have any ideas what kind of event an ESE male or ILE female (my friends still looking too) would go to?

ESE, cooking definitely.

I know a male LII programmer who is long-married to a woman who works in medical research and who might be another LII (I really can't tell her type, other than they get along great together while seeming to me to be distant and cold), and they live in a designer home and don't have children and both belong to the local Astronomy club, and they host a meeting of the club every once in a while at their home.

It's "bring a dish to pass" and "bring your telescope". So, food and beautiful toys are interesting to LIIs, because they are also interesting to ESEs.

[spacious]

ESE, cooking definitely.

maybe also at dining/drinking venues catching up with their friends? male ESEs could be into sports and team fandom, i think?

i also know of a female ILE and a male ESE who have their own podcasts. (the ESE was more consistent; the ILE's content was more groundbreaking.)

i also think that these types can enjoy long drives or long train rides -- none of these are community events per se, I know. I'm brainstorming O_O

[spacious]

Now actually thinking of trying a community meetup (despite it being against every one of my LII instincts to venture into the real world to meet other humans). Anyone have any ideas what kind of event an ESE male or ILE female (my friends still looking too) would go to?

Makerspace events for the ILEs. Adam has explained what they are on here before. I know theyre against every one of my ESI instincts, lol, but that's not the point here (i see it at the local library and I feel almost threatened and look away). Here are some buzzwords used for the ones near me to give you a sense: create, discover, embrace, new, tools, art

[Adam Strange]

Cross-posting for posterity.

I tend to live a fairly structured life, insofar as I can, while keeping as busy as I can. I'm also wary of overthinking things, because my intuition has no end and it can prevent me from actually doing things.

I did a lot of "dating" until I was 30, when I finally met a woman to whom I decided I could be married. She had 4D Si and was attractive, smart, and kind, but she was SLI, not ESI. Close, but not on target. Mainly, she had 4D Si and we got along and I knew she would be a good mother to our children. That was my primary criterion for marriage.

The first GF I had after my divorce told me that I had a hard time saying "I love you", but she understood that I did love her. (An LSI is dimensionally half an ESI and has Role Fi. Again, close but not on target.) She was less sure that I liked her, but Mirage has its problems and I did both love her and (mostly) like her.

And, of course, my last girlfriend, who was an ESI, was Dismissive-Avoidant and after three years of my trying and failing to connect, when she didn't prioritize our relationship, I quit and moved on.

So, it is possible to find an otherwise perfect Dual and still leave them, if they don't make the relationship a priority.

I'll tell you the truth: I'm lonely and I miss her, but not enough to go back to her and exist in a relationship where she isn't a full partner in making it work.

[Birdie]

Cross-posting for posterity.

I tend to live a fairly structured life, insofar as I can, while keeping as busy as I can. I'm also wary of overthinking things, because my intuition has no end and it can prevent me from actually doing things.

I did a lot of "dating" until I was 30, when I finally met a woman to whom I decided I could be married. She had 4D Si and was attractive, smart, and kind, but she was SLI, not ESI. Close, but not on target. Mainly, she had 4D Si and we got along and I knew she would be a good mother to our children. That was my primary criterion for marriage.

The first GF I had after my divorce told me that I had a hard time saying "I love you", but she understood that I did love her. (An LSI is dimensionally half an ESI and has Role Fi. Again, close but not on target.) She was less sure that I liked her, but Mirage has its problems and I did both love her and (mostly) like her.

And, of course, my last girlfriend, who was an ESI, was Dismissive-Avoidant and after three years of my trying and failing to connect, when she didn't prioritize our relationship, I quit and moved on.

So, it is possible to find an otherwise perfect Dual and still leave them, if they don't make the relationship a priority.

I'll tell you the truth: I'm lonely and I miss her, but not enough to go back to her and exist in a relationship where she isn't a full partner in making it work.

Adam did we link up elsewhere or was that aestrevix?

I randomly ran into someone from the socionics on discord and now I'm trying to remember who that was lmao, but whoever it was also went through a divorce and has been dating. We (the person I was talking to that I cannot remember) were discussing this 6mos - 1 year ago.

[Adam Strange]

Adam did we link up elsewhere or was that aestrevix?

I randomly ran into someone from the socionics on discord and now I'm trying to remember who that was lmao, but whoever it was also went through a divorce and has been dating. We (the person I was talking to that I cannot remember) were discussing this 6mos - 1 year ago.

Hi, @Birdie. Nice to see you again.

Your memory must have been of someone else. I've never been on Discord.

[Birdie]

Hi, @Birdie. Nice to see you again.

Your memory must have been of someone else. I've never been on Discord.

Thanks, Adam!


Nice to see y'all again as well.

[Echo]

We wound up settling on a pub quiz night to test the waters. We’ll see how it goes!

[Adam Strange]

Because I'm not in a relationship right now, I've been thinking a lot about relationships and why they go wrong or right.

In my case, the outcome seems to be determined by whether or not the participants in the relationship can effectively make the other person their priority or not.

In the case of my ex-wife, I definitely made her my priority, but I wasn't very effective at giving her (my supervisor) what she wanted, so she eventually left and I divorced her.

In the case of the LSIs I've dated, the sex (Ni/Se-Se/Ni) was great, but I didn't see a path forward, long term, in our public social interactions (Te/Fi - Ti/Fe). They were great today, but not in the running as permanent partners. I'd say that made both partners see the other as not their number-one priority.

In the case of the ESIs I've dated, the sex was again great, but they either lived too far away, or they were Dismissive-Avoidant and weren't there for me. Their Dismissive-Avoidance meant that I was actually the opposite of a priority, in the sense that, the more they liked me, the more vulnerable they felt to eventually being let down (this was exactly what their caregivers did, and is therefore the way they think that the world works), and so they distanced themselves in the relationship to the point where I quit trying, thereby validating their self-fulfilling fears.

Dismissive-Avoidance is a shit thing to get from your inconstant caregivers, and it basically makes a person be unsupportive to their partners. Everyone needs love, but they don't need to be vulnerable to someone who doesn't love them, and when you go too far down that path of unloving caregivers, it is really hard to believe that someone COULD love you, and then change your expectations to a new reality.


I ain't asking for much. I just want a Dual (who is capable of effectively making me their priority, because I'd make them mine) who is healthy (and wants to make me a priority, because I want to make them mine.)

In the words of my ESI buddy, "Dating is hard. It's really hard."

[Echo]

Because I'm not in a relationship right now, I've been thinking a lot about relationships and why they go wrong or right.

In my case, the outcome seems to be determined by whether or not the participants in the relationship can effectively make the other person their priority or not.

In the case of my ex-wife, I definitely made her my priority, but I wasn't very effective at giving her (my supervisor) what she wanted, so she eventually left and I divorced her.

In the case of the LSIs I've dated, the sex (Ni/Se-Se/Ni) was great, but I didn't see a path forward, long term, in our public social interactions (Te/Fi - Ti/Fe). They were great today, but not in the running as permanent partners. I'd say that made both partners see the other as not their number-one priority.

In the case of the ESIs I've dated, the sex was again great, but they either lived too far away, or they were Dismissive-Avoidant and weren't there for me. Their Dismissive-Avoidance meant that I was actually the opposite of a priority, in the sense that, the more they liked me, the more vulnerable they felt to eventually being let down (this was exactly what their caregivers did, and is therefore the way they think that the world works), and so they distanced themselves in the relationship to the point where I quit trying, thereby validating their self-fulfilling fears.

Dismissive-Avoidance is a shit thing to get from your inconstant caregivers, and it basically makes a person be unsupportive to their partners. Everyone needs love, but they don't need to be vulnerable to someone who doesn't love them, and when you go too far down that path of unloving caregivers, it is really hard to believe that someone COULD love you, and then change your expectations to a new reality.


I ain't asking for much. I just want a Dual (who is capable of effectively making me their priority, because I'd make them mine) who is healthy (and wants to make me a priority, because I want to make them mine.)

In the words of my ESI buddy, "Dating is hard. It's really hard."

Hi Adam- have you tried sticking it out with the dismissive avoidant ESIs? Could they be testing you? i’ve noticed that when outside things send my mother into a spiral she likes to test my father emotionally. She gets cold and withdraws (she did that after her mother died), but he just doubles down and sticks it out. I think she needs constant reassurance that she’s his priority because subconsciously she's always waiting to be hurt/failed by other people. Maybe it goes back to that whole victim/aggressor thing.