Beta aspects of IEI?

[guac]

Hi betazoids (this is the term?)

Could someone clarify in what ways IEIs display beta characteristics? I don't mean in a "oh it's cuz they use ni/se and fe/ti functions, and these functions mean blah blah" way. I'm looking for some more concrete examples/explanations.
I'm a strong Ni-subtype IEI and although there are certain Beta things I relate to a lot (aristocracy and stuff), I really don't relate to the "revolutionary" part at all, and this seems to be a core aspect of the quadra. Yes, I see how things could be improved, but even if I possessed a stronger sense of confidence and less general passivity/"I don't care, they can make things the way they want" attitude (which I guess is also related to how I've always felt to be more of an outsider/apart from things), I don't think I would try too hard either?
Maybe it's that I'm very introverted and just not very confident (and I'm still quite young. still developing into myself and all that gud stuff).

What do you think? And what do you think are the more NF beta characteristics? Because it feels like some beta descriptions are much more biased towards the STs. thank youuu

[guac]

anyone?

[Northstar]

Us vs. them mentality. Could be a sports team, political movement, nationality etc. IEI seem to crave belonging to a group that they will identify with and stand by, no matter what.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Re. "revolutionary"-ness, I recommend trying to look at Alphas and Betas together and contrasting them with Gammas and Deltas. The former are much more socially oriented (because they value Fe/Ti), and tend to think of social causes (political, religious, etc.) as being more important than Gammas and Deltas tend to. Exceptions of course exist, and you also have to examine motivations: if a Delta is involved in a political organization, it's more likely that he likes to feel like an important part of a "tribe" than that he feels a particular ideological convincement that this cause is important.

Once you do this, it's quite easy IMO to separate Alphas from Betas. Betas are like Deltas in that they enjoy being part of something larger than themselves, but because it's coupled with more ideological and emotional motivation, they tend to be the ones organizing and spearheading movements -- think Lenin, for instance, an SLE who was a perceptive thinker in his own right, but organized thousands of people into an effective revolutionary force. Or Mao, who, despite being a delusional narcissist and not a very deep thinker, was nevertheless able to unite millions of Chinese in a shared vision. Or Gandhi, or Jesus, or Hitler.

Alphas, in contrast, are more wispy, and drift in and out of social organizations more or less at will. They're less likely to be inclined to put down permanent roots in them, and even less likely to be effective at or willing to manipulate people and try to "herd" them in a general direction, which is generally in the realm of Se.

[Rusal]

Alphas, in contrast, are more wispy, and drift in and out of social organizations more or less at will.

Explained also in part by the fact that Alphas will quickly detect and resent any deviation from ‘purity’ and fairness and become disillusioned with the movement.

[Muddy]

I see IEIs as simply being the more mellow, inhibited versions of their ST counterparts. The revolutionary tendencies of Betas comes from an underlining desire to conquer and act out violently and savagely. If you don't relate to having any savage, barbaric desires or desire to enforce a greater good then you are probably not beta.

[Desert Financial]

I knew an IEI who believed himself to be on a mission of social change. He said that he believed he was brought to this world to start conversations and make people think. He liked to challenge people. He believed that in the darkness, everyone looked the same, and in the light, people expressed their uniqueness.

He saw himself in Jesus, citing the story in which Jesus casted the money changers out of the temple.

[Desert Financial]

I see IEIs as simply being the more mellow, inhibited versions of their ST counterparts. The revolutionary tendencies of Betas comes from an underlining desire to conquer and act out violently and savagely. If you don't relate to having any savage, barbaric desires or desire to enforce a greater good then you are probably not beta.

Revolutions start in the mind and that's where Beta NFs excel. They reframe things and point out things that others don't see. This is how they catalyze change.

[mr provocateur]

Well, EIE's are supposedly the revolution minded types whereas IEI's are the breaks of beta. Mirror types have conflicting temperaments. Rationality comes with desire for projected order whereas irrationality is geared towards less social causes. Think IEI's as muses for SLE's to direct that power for more constructive means.

[Desert Financial]

Think IEI's as muses for SLE's to direct that power for more constructive means.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4umc87T5UMs

[Muddy]

Another thing I want that the whole revolutionary thing mostly only applies to Betas that are discontent with the circumstances/system they live in. Betas that are in highly privileged circumstances or that see prevailing order as reasonable and just tend to become staunch enforcers instead.

[Kiba]

if a Delta is involved in a political organization, it's more likely that he likes to feel like an important part of a "tribe" than that he feels a particular ideological convincement that this cause is important.

this is not true. Quite the opposite. There's no sense of "tribe" in Fi. Delta tend to be individualistic in the sense that they are always going to keep their own thoughts, ideas, independence, impressions and "feelings" (Ne, Si,Fi) even if they accept to work in a team or for a group/social cause. If they join to a group is likely because they believe strongly in the cause and even that, there are a lot of personal things that "still there" and sometimes are more or equally important that such cause, and due that they restrain or limit their action in group activities and I'm even speaking of small groups where deltas prefer to work generally. I think you haven't worked with Deltas before to get how flimsy and short their support or attachment to causes can be (Ne,Fi) and also consider that delta is aristocratic. I think you are interpreting that as a sort of "tribal" feeling beyond convincement, but it's not even that.

The ones who get a "tribal" sense more likely are betas and alphas. They tend to accept general emotions (Fe) aroused from external causes and situations. Betas can be strong supporters of groups or tribal, hierarchical structures (Se, aristocratic) which seek to keep "their own" traditions, concepts, imagery and culture.

And Jesus was not beta. There are no traces of Se valuing in turning the other cheek neither in most part of what he said/did in the N.T. Traditionally has been considered in typing circles as EII. Mb he was not really a single type. The part of the kings and prophets in the old testament is Beta. The first part of the patriarchs is Alpha. The middle part where Jesus came to live in was likely more Gamma (Caesars, and hebrew religion used to profit). The N.T. is likely more Delta. It's actually the announcement of a new Kingdom (aristocratic) without violence, suffering and pain, where Saints who innocents as kids will reign.

OP IEI usually is moved by and supports the strong willed people (Se). They unconsciously seek some autocratic figure to stick to. That gives them an inner sense of control, order and therefore peace. EIE are the most revolutionary one in beta. That comes from Si PoLR (constant feeling of discomfort), Ni (own imaginary, conceptual world), Ti (introverted logic opposed to "common" and factual logic, Te) Se (need for power, top, higher or privileged positions) and Fe (external objects determining emotions).

[Bethany]

Hi betazoids (this is the term?)

Could someone clarify in what ways IEIs display beta characteristics? I don't mean in a "oh it's cuz they use ni/se and fe/ti functions, and these functions mean blah blah" way. I'm looking for some more concrete examples/explanations.
I'm a strong Ni-subtype IEI and although there are certain Beta things I relate to a lot (aristocracy and stuff), I really don't relate to the "revolutionary" part at all, and this seems to be a core aspect of the quadra. Yes, I see how things could be improved, but even if I possessed a stronger sense of confidence and less general passivity/"I don't care, they can make things the way they want" attitude (which I guess is also related to how I've always felt to be more of an outsider/apart from things), I don't think I would try too hard either?
Maybe it's that I'm very introverted and just not very confident (and I'm still quite young. still developing into myself and all that gud stuff).

What do you think? And what do you think are the more NF beta characteristics? Because it feels like some beta descriptions are much more biased towards the STs. thank youuu

Beta, including IEI, set an example to people to be loving, compassionate and treat people equally. In real life it seems to me that Betas seem well-liked and respected. I think we have a way of seeing people as individuals and making them feel valued and important. I think that we inspire people to care about the most vulnerable in society (and we understand this can take many shapes and forms). Soz if that's simple/ not proper socionics but I'd like to show some Beta support. These are the thoughts that come to mind when I think about what I have in common with other Betas. We are like the inspiring teachers in the movies. Caring and passionate.

[Rebelondeck]

Most Betas seem to be rather image conscious, and seem to have somewhat limited views of the future and of the potential consequences of their decisions.......

a.k.a. I/O

[Wavebury]

EIEs are much more likely to be political revolutionaries. IEIs are more moderate and more individualistic, I find.

Some EIEs are very "reactionary" though, like very traditional and authoritarian all the while displaying an oddball/eccentric side. Think of Anton Lavey. Or possibly Voltaire, the French author.

tldr; not all betas are revolutionaries.

[Rebelondeck]

I'm curious about why you say that. Any examples? Socionics dictates that every type is limited in some way. But I would say I have a more nuanced view of the future than most anyone I know.
It's iffy to make a statement like this about a whole quadra since every quadra has types with varying abilities to imagine the future.

That would take too much writing. Let me summarise:

IEI - impetuous in an OCD type of way, and not save for a rainy day
EIE - idealists with focus on the system not giving much thought to the practical costs of their ambition
SLE - living in the moment and not worrying much about consequence
LSI - maker/follower of plans and rules, rarely looking beyond the immediate situation

a.k.a. I/O

EDIT: Have you read: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ription-by-I-O

[grumpyvic81]

That would take too much writing. Let me summarise:

IEI - impetuous in an OCD type of way, and not save for a rainy day
EIE - idealists with focus on the system not giving much thought to the practical costs of their ambition
SLE - living in the moment and not worrying much about consequence
LSI - maker/follower of plans and rules, rarely looking beyond the immediate situation

a.k.a. I/O

EDIT: Have you read: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ription-by-I-O

lol so flattering, your views on Beta

...Btw I'm a mix of SLE and LSI according to you, I don't mind your way of summarising this stuff. I'd be interested in an EIE article too, lol

[cry]

That would take too much writing. Let me summarise:

IEI - impetuous in an OCD type of way, and not save for a rainy day
EIE - idealists with focus on the system not giving much thought to the practical costs of their ambition
SLE - living in the moment and not worrying much about consequence
LSI - maker/follower of plans and rules, rarely looking beyond the immediate situation

a.k.a. I/O

EDIT: Have you read: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ription-by-I-O

Yes. I'm not impulsive or spontaneous by many definitions though, In fact I really am not. It's not like I'm consistently on complete randomness mode- I just make plans and do the opposite if I feel like turning my world upside down... in a good way lol.

I'm not able to objectively look at the outcomes of my decisions, at all... which almost makes me Ni polr, but really I just dislike applying Te to my Ni. There's no such thing as a bad outcome for me, I just like to barely make it through and either make a poem about it or forget it ever happened and move on.

[Rebelondeck]

@hibiscus All the IEIs who I've known regardless of subtype seemed to do too many things on a whim, to be overly unrealistic and to be deaf to anything that I had to say. They also seem to lack confidence so were cautious in that sense but made decisions that put themselves at risk or spent money that they didn't have to make themselves feel better.
@grumpyvic81 I've not met a SLE or LSI with a true system focus. Also, most EIE seemed to want more from people than they really could give although they wouldn't often say it to anyone's face. Every type can lie and be deceitful but some of the EIEs that I've met seemed particularly good at it. By the way, I've liked most that I've met.

a.k.a. I/O

[Computer Loser]

Hi betazoids (this is the term?)

Could someone clarify in what ways IEIs display beta characteristics? I don't mean in a "oh it's cuz they use ni/se and fe/ti functions, and these functions mean blah blah" way. I'm looking for some more concrete examples/explanations.
I'm a strong Ni-subtype IEI and although there are certain Beta things I relate to a lot (aristocracy and stuff), I really don't relate to the "revolutionary" part at all, and this seems to be a core aspect of the quadra. Yes, I see how things could be improved, but even if I possessed a stronger sense of confidence and less general passivity/"I don't care, they can make things the way they want" attitude (which I guess is also related to how I've always felt to be more of an outsider/apart from things), I don't think I would try too hard either?
Maybe it's that I'm very introverted and just not very confident (and I'm still quite young. still developing into myself and all that gud stuff).

What do you think? And what do you think are the more NF beta characteristics? Because it feels like some beta descriptions are much more biased towards the STs. thank youuu

they're idealist/perfectionalist (ni) have an affinity to power, money, etc (se). have a dark side when they contemplate truth (ti) light-hearted, joksters (fe)

[Warm Soapy Water]

I can't speak for every IEI, but concrete examples in myself:

I loathe routine and structure and doing the same thing every day. I crave a life of adventure and difference. 'Just get a normal 9 to 5 job that Judge Judy would approve of' the LSE yells at me. NO, I rebel.

I don't condone or encourage the criminal things some SLEs (usually male ones) do, but I feel much closer to them than I would a LSE judge or prosecutor. Hard to deny how I feel. Bad bad boy, you make me feel so good. lol.

I want to overthrow society and create a revolution, and fix some things I find grossly unfair or just to shake people up a bit. Sure, why not? Of course I'm too passive and laid back and not confident to do this myself, I can inspire those who have the ST to do it for me.

I believe in the philosophy of 'Make the comfortable uncomfortable and bring comfort to the uncomfortable.' So I can play devil's advocate a lot. I see Delta as the quadra of going more with the status quo. ie, the comfortable should stay comfortable because they are rich cuz of Te and Fi, and the uncomfortable are uncomfortable only because they must have done some sin to deserve it.

I realize this gives me the tendency to feel sorry for people I perhaps 'should not feel sorry for' but the alternative is actually more 'evil' to me.

I'm provocative, and although shy and quiet- I can easily say things to piss anybody off. Beta trait. Of course I'd much rather everybody get along in a sense, SEI is my lookalike after all. But if I have to fight, I can be really viscous. =/ I'm not proud of this in myself, I'd much rather be a Delta that works in a homeless soup kitchen without brutally making fun of it. But it's just not me.

IEIs are diplomatic and friendly though, and can morph/subdue these ideals a lot where they are hardly noticeable- because IEIs are incredibly diplomatic over all- just like SEIs and IEEs and SEEs to a great extent etc. The core values are there, but harder to see especially in a 'concrete way'. Just like an IEE when they try to manipulate everybody that they might agree with a Beta in many points, but deep down they always just want to go duck hunting with their LSE str8 man buddies.

[grumpyvic81]

I can't speak for every IEI, but concrete examples in myself:

I loathe routine and structure and doing the same thing every day. I crave a life of adventure and difference. 'Just get a normal 9 to 5 job that Judge Judy would approve of' the LSE yells at me. NO, I rebel.

idk if that's type related bc I also never wanted a 9 to 5 job and never did one.

or if judge judy isn't a lsi-ti so/sp type of thing

[grumpyvic81]

@hibiscus All the IEIs who I've known regardless of subtype seemed to do too many things on a whim, to be overly unrealistic and to be deaf to anything that I had to say. They also seem to lack confidence so were cautious in that sense but made decisions that put themselves at risk or spent money that they didn't have to make themselves feel better.
@grumpyvic81 I've not met a SLE or LSI with a true system focus. Also, most EIE seemed to want more from people than they really could give although they wouldn't often say it to anyone's face. Every type can lie and be deceitful but some of the EIEs that I've met seemed particularly good at it. By the way, I've liked most that I've met.

I don't know what your true system thing means. So you see EIEs as users/takers at heart ....... I met users/takers and very giving ones too. I don't think that's type related, like, at all. Maybe you just let yourself be manipulated senselessly by them, lol. And I don't see why an IEI would need to take your moralising advice. So alot of the stuff you say seems to be from your own pov which is fine but don't present it like it isn't lol

PS: Again if you experienced EIEs this way. Then think. Remember, the thread about suggestive function. And our discussing your Fe suggestive here https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1385000, ring a bell yet?

[Number 9 large]

Re. "revolutionary"-ness, I recommend trying to look at Alphas and Betas together and contrasting them with Gammas and Deltas. The former are much more socially oriented (because they value Fe/Ti), and tend to think of social causes (political, religious, etc.) as being more important than Gammas and Deltas tend to. Exceptions of course exist, and you also have to examine motivations: if a Delta is involved in a political organization, it's more likely that he likes to feel like an important part of a "tribe" than that he feels a particular ideological convincement that this cause is important.

Once you do this, it's quite easy IMO to separate Alphas from Betas. Betas are like Deltas in that they enjoy being part of something larger than themselves, but because it's coupled with more ideological and emotional motivation, they tend to be the ones organizing and spearheading movements -- think Lenin, for instance, an SLE who was a perceptive thinker in his own right, but organized thousands of people into an effective revolutionary force. Or Mao, who, despite being a delusional narcissist and not a very deep thinker, was nevertheless able to unite millions of Chinese in a shared vision. Or Gandhi, or Jesus, or Hitler.

Alphas, in contrast, are more wispy, and drift in and out of social organizations more or less at will. They're less likely to be inclined to put down permanent roots in them, and even less likely to be effective at or willing to manipulate people and try to "herd" them in a general direction, which is generally in the realm of Se.

Ive seen Gamma NTs also being deeply passionate about policital, social causes etc, like Jordan Peterson (ILI) and Ben Shapiro (LIE), so maybe the social cause thing is more of an Ni ego thing

[Number 9 large]

Hi betazoids (this is the term?)

Could someone clarify in what ways IEIs display beta characteristics? I don't mean in a "oh it's cuz they use ni/se and fe/ti functions, and these functions mean blah blah" way. I'm looking for some more concrete examples/explanations.
I'm a strong Ni-subtype IEI and although there are certain Beta things I relate to a lot (aristocracy and stuff), I really don't relate to the "revolutionary" part at all, and this seems to be a core aspect of the quadra. Yes, I see how things could be improved, but even if I possessed a stronger sense of confidence and less general passivity/"I don't care, they can make things the way they want" attitude (which I guess is also related to how I've always felt to be more of an outsider/apart from things), I don't think I would try too hard either?
Maybe it's that I'm very introverted and just not very confident (and I'm still quite young. still developing into myself and all that gud stuff).

What do you think? And what do you think are the more NF beta characteristics? Because it feels like some beta descriptions are much more biased towards the STs. thank youuu

Theres tons of IEIs who have changed the course of history through organizing people and creating movements, creating the spark in people to gather round and change society for better or worse depending on the person.

Generally IEIs bring people together, uniting them and pointing them towards one purpose that would serve all mankind. EIEs are similar. The actual doing, carrying out the tasks and persevering in the face of threats and danger lies in the hands of the skilled STs.

There is always something "revolutionary" about betas in the sense that they are often not happy with the status quo, or see how things can be improved and are eager to organize "an army" to do so. Betas often flock together and create groups, even movements, or armies to combat what they think "is wrong with society", think martin luther king (EIE) and apartheid, adolf ****** (EIE) and judaism, nelson mandela(IEI), barack obama (IEI), jesus christ (IEI), etc.

What do they have in common? All had a vision (Ni) of how the future SHOULD look like, and they rallied and inspired the same passion and ignited the flame in others (Fe) to motivate others to carry out what was needed to make it so (Se, Ti).

[Bethany]

IEI - impetuous in an OCD type of way, and not save for a rainy day

'IEI - impetuous in an OCD type of way, and not save for a rainy day'

-I suffered from a type of actual OCD for many years so it's interesting you say that.
-I didn't care about saving money for a long time, but always had a plan at the back of my mind to find a secure, comfortable job (which I now have).
-'Impetuous in an OCD way'. I put a great deal of thought and care into some things (I recently made a master plan to save a dying friendship (sad story) and I think it's worked ) and there are some things I'm useless with (cooking..) I just find it so hard to remember things about cooking..I think the same probably applies to bigger problems too. It's like this super ability to imagine different ways things could work out, but an inability (sometimes) to foresee how other issues could come along and get in the way or me resolving the first issue.

[Rebelondeck]

........ I just find it so hard to remember things about cooking..I think the same probably applies to bigger problems too. It's like this super ability to imagine different ways things could work out, but an inability (sometimes) to foresee how other issues could come along and get in the way or me resolving the first issue.

IEIs seem to have impatience for things outside of a very narrow range of interests (often their obsessions). Likely, it's not that you can't remember or understand; it's that you don't care to remember or understand even though you may realize that it would be advantageous for you to do so and that you are actually able to do it if it were important to you.

a.k.a. I/O

[Bethany]

I recently discovered the enneagram instinctual stackings and I think taking a look at those can help people figure out the parts of their quadra they identify with and the parts they don't. There's an overload of information in Socionics descriptions (I love it but it's overwhleming for me). There's A LOT of truth in it, but it gets me down reading about the negative stuff. If you learn about the enneagram instincts, you can compare those with the descriptions of your Socionics type (there are some super useful resources in the enneagram area on this site) and come up with your own versions/ imaginings of types. It's a nice alternative to Socionics descriptions(for me anyway). Socionics descriptions scare me because there's so much truth in them..and they are stated as if they are fact. Which makes them seem like fact. But they're not (even 100 descriptions together can't get at the essence of ALL IEIs). Comparing them (and quadra descriptions) with enneagram, in particular the instincts, seems like a really great way of understanding people. Sure, you have things in common with people in your quadra. That's cool..but we also have loads in common with people with instinctual stackings which are somehow complimentary with ours (that's a lot of people). Sorry to go on a massive enneagram tangent..

[Rebelondeck]

@bethanyrose As I had indicated in my IEI description, they do not usually like to have their shortcomings pointed out and they often sell themselves short. Socionics is more about the way that types think - the type of information they use and the general way they process it. It's got nothing to do with who they will become because no two of the same type are alike. People accumulate different baggage, which often overshadows type and it's the baggage that is criticised more than type. Given similar baggage, two of one type will process similarly but it's difficult to compare an IEI who's been living in privilege with one who's grown up in a refugee camp.

a.k.a. I/O

[Bethany]

@Rebelondeck soz should have posted my enneagram thoughts somewhere else to be fair (in a different thread). I don't mind having my shortcomings being pointed out, I mind that Socionics was making me notice everyone's shortcomings, including my own, a lot more, in real life. But learning about the enneagram stacks has made me stop doing that. I wasn't disagreeing with things you've said though, just haven't processed them yet.

[Rebelondeck]

....... I wasn't disagreeing with things you've said though, just haven't processed them yet.

Considering that I don't adhere to Socionics models and based on my personal experience with your type, I would expect your disagreement with just about everything I've said.

a.k.a. I/O

[persimmonism]

Considering that I don't adhere to Socionics models and based on my personal experience with your type, I would expect your disagreement with just about everything I've said.

a.k.a. I/O

Wdym you don't adhere to Socionics models? So what do you adhere to?

[Rebelondeck]

Wdym you don't adhere to Socionics models? So what do you adhere to?

I've written a lot about my views. It's the modelling with which I have issue not the basic observations/classifications. You have to take into consideration that I'm a control system engineer with AI background:

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...atterns-by-I-O
http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

a.k.a. I/O

[persimmonism]

I've written a lot about my views. It's the modelling with which I have issue not the basic observations/classifications. You have to take into consideration that I'm a control system engineer with AI background:

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...atterns-by-I-O
http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

a.k.a. I/O

Thanks! I'll take a look!

[Bethany]

IEIs seem to have impatience for things outside of a very narrow range of interests (often their obsessions). Likely, it's not that you can't remember or understand; it's that you don't care to remember or understand even though you may realize that it would be advantageous for you to do so and that you are actually able to do it if it were important to you.

a.k.a. I/O

If you're telling me I'm capable of things, then thanks, I appreciate the encouragement. But there have definitely been loads of things I've struggled with that I really did care about. Sometimes, yeah things have gone wrong, because my heart wasn't in it. But often it's to do with me making a few silly little mistakes (due to lack of understanding) and then things spiralling. By silly, I don't mean careless (although I'm sure they can be sometimes), I just mean things that I thought were right and made correct sense but turned out to be wrong. This could be to do with anxiety though, so might be more an anxiety thing rather than an IEI thing.

[Rebelondeck]

@bethanyrose More than a few IEIs seem to choose careers that are not suited to their natural skills although some still do well through determination though they often hate their jobs. A similar tendency applies to many of their relationships. Everyone makes silly little mistakes, but IEIs often focus too much on them as if it's a tremendous blow to their images or expectations; unfortunately, this is how one loses sight of the objectives. I've known a few IEI with high anxiety but much of it seems to be traceable to them not living up to their own expectations, which sometimes can be overly optimistic/idealistic. Some IEIs need to stay away from people, careers and situations that smother their own natural processes - so they can stop pretending to be someone they're not.

a.k.a. I/O

[Bethany]

@Rebelondeck That's really interesting. I relate to what you've described, and it's oddly reassuring to read. Thanks. Luckily, I have found a nice job and have seen a therapist to help with my mental health problems. Discovering socionics has also been helpful..until it started making me feel crazy. Talking on here was probably a good idea. I do think discovering those enneagram instinct stacks was one of the biggest shifts in myself I have ever felt though. Restored my confidence in my ability to deal with and help people and made me want to make art in a way I haven't felt in a long time. I suppose discovering all this stuff is a big deal for most people.

[grumpyvic81]

@Rebelondeck That's really interesting. I relate to what you've described, and it's oddly reassuring to read. Thanks. Luckily, I have found a nice job and have seen a therapist to help with my mental health problems. Discovering socionics has also been helpful..until it started making me feel crazy. Talking on here was probably a good idea. I do think discovering those enneagram instinct stacks was one of the biggest shifts in myself I have ever felt though. Restored my confidence in my ability to deal with and help people and made me want to make art in a way I haven't felt in a long time. I suppose discovering all this stuff is a big deal for most people.

I don't actually think any of what he said there was type related. More like astrology

[Bethany]

I have also had the problem of setting myself very low expectations because I have ‘failed’ at other stuff. That is just as unhelpful as setting expectations which are too high. Low self-esteem can lead to someone not pushing themselves, in the same way idealism can set someone up for failure. You could see it as a vicious cycle. I practice meditation which focuses on self-compassion in order to deal with my self-esteem issues, which I find very helpful.

[persimmonism]

I have also had the problem of setting myself very low expectations because I have ‘failed’ at other stuff. That is just as unhelpful as setting expectations which are too high. Low self-esteem can lead to someone not pushing themselves, in the same way idealism can set someone up for failure. You could see it as a vicious cycle. I practice meditation which focuses on self-compassion in order to deal with my self-esteem issues, which I find very helpful.

Me too.. at this point I've been practicing trying not to even have any expectations to begin with.