Hello again, forum.
Title should be self-explanatory, I'm just a soul whose intentions are good and want to know the main things that set these 2 groups apart.
Differences between Beta and Delta NFs
Hello again, forum.
Title should be self-explanatory, I'm just a soul whose intentions are good and want to know the main things that set these 2 groups apart.
what sort of answer are you looking for? I foresee a lot of stereotypes
Nothing too speciffic, yet no stereotypes, prefferable. I'm 'floating' between these types and I would like to know more about everything: From how they envision the world around them and relationships, whether or not they like singing in the shower or in the loo...you catch the drift.Originally Posted by Bertrand
probably best for a logical type to answer this. I feel like when it comes to NFs its hard for one side to distinguish itself from the other without implicating ethical shortcomings of the other; even when they're trying to be fair and generous it starts to slip in through the cracks. or you get people that are mistyped that can talk favorably about the other side but its really because they're double agents
its not like its impossible to say nice things about the others, but it comes off as a backhanded compliment most the time or weirdly disingenuous, or just flat out inaccurate. bottom line is beta has beta quadral values and delta has delta. meaning beta is more heirarchical collectivist and delta is more decentralized individualist. but they both view the world in terms of logic+sensing which means an unavoidable degree of aristocratism--its just about the preferred arrangement. in other words, they tend to view the world as fundamentally arranged according to similar metrics, they just totally disagree as to how those metrics ought to spin out and go about being achieved. you see a lot of betas advocate for "delta" causes but it has the ring of making a church or political movement out of what was originally a more benign idea. the kingdom of heaven is the church (the movement) vs inside you, kind of thing.
both are concerned with people's well being, a lot of difference center around valued Ti v Fi in how they believe proper "order" should be structured. delta is more interested in preserving individual rights, whereas beta is more about codifying and preserving "what is right" in a singular crystalline structure. interestingly enough beta tends to act more cheeky socially as if they have an anarchistic streak, but its mostly the leeway they give themselves from within the bounds of the law. on a long enough timeline they tend toward authoritarian structures for the exact reason that they believe anything not specifically codified as wrong tends to be fair game. naturally over time this results in rather comprehensive and strict bodies of law. delta tends to believe in self restraint and more free flowing spirit of law. rather than nailing everything down with Ti they tend to preach Fi virtues of cultivating character and sincere love, and not the kind that forces itself to do things but the kind that sincerely desires to go above and beyond what is required, and is willing to do what is prohibited if its "the right thing"--in this sense they tend toward anarchy even though their societies tend to be very stable. this ultimately culminates in things being turned over to alpha quadra, because the time comes where delta is too stagnant, and the moral structures become so loose that it sets the stage for alpha to begin its freewheeling experimentation, after which beta has to come in and bring order etc etc
You're probably Beta NF, 'floating', especially IEI, is their type of thing. And some more things to know to feed your dreamings?
Probably. Been over-brooding for the past couple of weeks or so about it. (is that even a word?)You're probably Beta NF, 'floating', especially IEI, is their type of thing. And some more things to know to feed your dreamings?
I live in an Alpha and Delta environment and I don't really feel at ease. I feel like the Alphas on here are too juvenile and Deltas seem too much like old grannies (Sorry Deltas and Alphas!)
Haha, it may as well be a word - perhaps you invented it (Oxford dictionary editors themselves are quite modest about this. They write "On average, we add approximately 1,000 new entries to Oxford Dictionaries Online every year" ....https://www.quora.com/How-many-new-E...ary-every-year)
But, yeah, over-brooding fits the bill I think. IEIs like to spend a lot of time daydreaming and flights of fancy, imaginations and such, and the brooding aspect, that's your emotional part aka extraverted ethics
It's all good though haha. Find yourself a nice partner (hey I don't know if you're single of course) ... who lets you dream and has some promises of supporting you, with some doing of it just now too, SLE and SEE are good for that.
Delta NFs for the most part are usually bubbly do-gooders, while Beta NF are a lot more grounded, dark and mysterious. In person it's pretty easy to tell, though online it can be tad more difficult sometimes.
look my bloggers examples in the signature
Complete opposite quadra.
Fe valuing vs Fi valuing.
Se valuing vs Si valuing
Ni valuing vs Ne valuing
And Ti valuing vs Te valuing
Delta NFs are childlike cuz of Ne in their ego, Beta NFs are victim cuz of Ni ego
Instead of looking at it like "NF", look at it like NeFi, and NiFe.
Beta NFs want someone who is to the point and sexually assertive, even aggressive
Delta NFs want someone who takes care of them
Last edited by Number 9 large; 12-06-2017 at 06:50 PM.
I have, but most of the people and skilled socionics geeks around me said i was a doofus for even thinking about EII. And i kind of have to agree, even though I'm an INFP in socionics, I could never wrap myself around the 'childish yet mature' aura that EIIs have.Avatar pic V.Is asvaluing -> Delta NF.
Ever considered EII 4 before?
As for 4, that's my enneagram for sure. I'm a sp/sx or sx/sp (still not quite sure) but 4w5 is almost a certainty. I have '4' in a speech bubble above my head wherever I'm going.
I get the impression you could be EII-Fi 4.
Those EIIs are much less "childlike", because their Ne is not too emphasized, and Delta NFs can also be "pseudo caretakers", so...
I'd rule out Sx/Sp personally, at least for now. You seem to rather have secondary Sx.
Your style reminds me of @reverie's.
I was planning to do a VI video and just get over all these existential issues. But man, are the insecurities there. And they're in bulk, even. Everytime i tried to record, there just had to be one wrong thing about it all: lighting sucks, speech sucks, face sucks even harder.
The one thing that doesn't scream Fi about myself is that my humour can get offensive. And i'm not as 'anal' about my values. Hell, I don't even know what they are. I just know when the boundary is crossed.
Looks too dreamy and fuzzy forAvatar pic V.Is as
Ever considered EII 4 before?
EIIs have 4D Demonstrative Ni, so.Looks too dreamy and fuzzy for
They are gonna look kind of "soft".
I suppose, but i'd rather type with what's there rather than get bogged down by imagining what might not be there, then applying it as if it is. It representsif anything which makes more sense for an Ni lead type to use, rather than a confused EII to use unvalued functions instead.
Better to check all the evidence such as what she's said and what she likes, before looking create unknown(s), as then it just creates confusion and dialogue for other purposes rather than type.
I suppose, but i'd rather type with what's there rather than get bogged down by imagining what might not be there, then applying it as if it is. It represents
Better to check all the evidence such as what she's said and what she likes, before looking create unknown(s), as then it just creates confusion and dialogue for other purposes rather than type.That's rather Delta NF (I'm just a soul whose intentions are good) to say, for example.
You should look into each type specifically. Each of those types (EIE, IEE, EII, IEI) are very different between each other.
If going for generals, Betas NF are Ni and Fe dom and seek for Ti and Se; while Deltas NF are Ne and Fi dom and seek for Si and Te.
Also you should look for Quadra Values (dictated by the functions I mentioned) and see where do you fit best.
Plus, making a distinction for yourself between Extroversion and Introversion and Rational (j)/ Irrational (p) should be easy knowing the meanings of those basic Jungian dichotomies.
Last edited by Hope; 12-07-2017 at 01:22 AM.
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.
@Penny Dreadful: Unfortunately, you probably will be, in spades.
Una mile, una mile, una mile, una mile!
But yes, probably haha. Are there things such as satisfied type 4s though? That's the true question
Delta NFs are crybabies and Beta NFs are bratty teenagers.
What about bratty crybabies or soft teenager then
All crybabies are bratty but in a more childlike sort of manner, whereas teenagers are all rebellious shitheads.
I think I want revolutions to start by themselves, so not sure where that would put me
But I'm raising the banner for sure
Hopefully it's appropriate to put this here. I didn't want to start a whole thread about essentially the same question.
I have an old friend who I've always assumed to be IEE like me, but we are very very different. It's hard to imagine him as a "Rational" type, but I'm starting to think I don't necessarily understand what that means in socionics so I'm opening myself up to the possibility that he might actually be EIE. I can't think of any EIEs that I know personally so I don't really have anyone to compare him to.
He is dramatic, I've seen him cry a bunch of times, but he also laughs loudly, smiles often and engages everyone. He is easily offended and paranoid. Quite messy and unorganized, probably even more than me (and I am bad). Obsessed with his looks but not particularly fashionable. Has interest in aliens, zombies and conspiracy theories. (I have about zero interest in these topics.) Some of the shit he says is pretty insane. Gullible. Sympathetic to other peoples' problems but also self centered and prefers all eyes and ears on him if possible. Loves and hates strongly. Rants a lot about things/especially people he hates. Not very self confident. Often puts himself down and compares himself to me and says he wishes he was as smart/capable and mature as me, which is flattering but laughable imo. He is quite impractical. I tried to teach him to drive stick a few years ago and he was really hard on himself and kept freaking out that he was messing up my car and eventually couldn't take the stress and gave up despite how patient and understanding I was with him.
He dropped out of highschool and was a terrible student. Me too though. But he has a surprisingly scientific mind.
The main thing I can think of about him that seems rational is that he is quite resistant to change.
Is this beta NF?
Last edited by schwiftyrickty; 12-11-2017 at 08:37 AM.
Hi schwiftyrickty,
I have no idea haha
But .. going by your description, are you sure he's not a logical type who just has poor control over his emotions? Sounds a bit like it from your description ... usually F types are able to manage themselves better in that sphere. Also some of his interests ... might be S and T related, or N and T related .. but really i'm clutching at straws, i'm just putting if out there in case you wanted to consider it.
Thanks for the input. He is a mystery. I should probably add that he has a family history of Manic Depression (though he hasn't been diagnosed himself) and also tends towards substance abuse. Just in case that might be obscuring things. He also seems to have gender identity issues. Just painting a picture. His behavior is very unusual for any man I've ever met. Or any person really. He's a character to be sure.Hi schwiftyrickty,
I have no idea haha
But .. going by your description, are you sure he's not a logical type who just has poor control over his emotions? Sounds a bit like it from your description ... usually F types are able to manage themselves better in that sphere. Also some of his interests ... might be S and T related, or N and T related .. but really i'm clutching at straws, i'm just putting if out there in case you wanted to consider it.
If he is some sort of logical type, it would have to be ILE. It makes sense to me that he is either Si suggestive or PoLR, he is definitely weak in that area but at the same time fixated on it. Thanks for suggesting the possibility. He is not a stable person in any way and that certainly could complicate things. Now that I think about it, he seems more Alpha than Delta, but I'm more unfamiliar with Beta. I know loads of SLEs (unfortunately) but that's about it. I could also maybe believe ESE, but he is way more interested in the paranormal and intangible than any ESE I've ever met.
Last edited by schwiftyrickty; 12-11-2017 at 10:01 AM.
It is
^ attention seeking Fe HA maybe. Needs Si to be looked after. Could be ILE. Over time i'm sure the picture will paint itself more for you.
Well I'm certainly not going to be getting to know him any better since I was extremely close with him for about five years and he's pretty much dropped off the map in the last few. My only hope is to get to know more people of different types and cement my understanding of socionics in general. Even ten years from now when he's surely forgotten about me I will probably still be trying to nail down his type.
Umm he seems IEI-Fe if that input helps
Too N and too Irrational to be EIE
Fi is about how people relate to each other. Forming a unified theory of behaviours and views is very Fe and systematically Ti. There's no personal subjectivity of feeling but an enforced method of behaviour (like ESE and dinner parties for example). With that in mind, the epitome of social justice warrior - Fe forced behaviour, Ti system of governance, with the belief of societal reshape ie Ni - the epitome of this type, the social justice warrior, is EIE.
It is interesting to read Psychological Types and notice how morality is linked to extraversion (by Jung) at least to some extent. Maybe there is "moral" logic and "amoral" logic and how you define word morality.
I don't know if it is that useful to see SJW as completely delta NF's. Which types actually go overboard with it?
Sorry, I don't really follow them. Have fun!
#aristocraticissues
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
you can think of SJW ideology as being a codification (alpha) and a movement (beta) centered around propagation and enforcement of ideals that originated as local delta NF values, and at some point it made a pass through alpha presumably, and it can exist in some form across all 3 groups. people are just identifying different aspects of the broader phenomenon with the label, i.e. some people identify the "movement" as SJWism (beta), others the underlying values (delta), others as what the values represent (alpha), others still as a more or less pure nuisance (gamma). this war over who bears the "onus" inasmuch as SJWism is a slur is just the flipside to the same phenomenon, because it just becomes a matter of doing the same thing but with a negative spin. the thing is what aspects are considered negative are likewise relative to the ITR between the percieved nature of SJWism and the held-values of the judger. So this whole thing has a very relativistic dynamic. At the end of the day the root values of SJWism as a basic ontology are inherently Ne and Fi in the sense that it revolves around the idea that people have a right to decide for themselves how to be and that ought to be respected for its own sake; when attempts to reify these values in the form of political action it takes on the same ironic turn all "tolerance"-as-doctrine does, which is it raises the question, how do we tolerate intolerance and what is the solution. the delta NF aspect to that is simple, it simply tolerates intolerance too, which is why it never becomes a centralized movement to begin with. beta does not tolerate intolerance, hence their opposite attitude toward the same basic idea.
in any case a lot of this back and forth is predicated on the idea that someone needs to ethically "account" for SJWism which is its own form of jockeying to indebt others and come out on top, which is more of a sensing + ethical take on the phenomenon. who are we going to saddle with the label, etc. which is kind of juvenile if you don't understand what it all means to begin with
hot potato with the SJW mark of shame
NTs seem the least likely to give a fuck about that whole game
Last edited by Bertrand; 12-12-2017 at 09:12 PM.
I can say the modern SJW movement is largely Fi + Ne ego types in Jungian theory. (Perhaps socionics defines the functions so differently Fi suddenly becomes and transmogrifies into Fe or something...) 80% of online slacktivist SJWs are Fi lead, Ne creative, and a good portion of the rest are Ti + Ne creative. The common theme seems to more be Se PoLR than anything else, which is why you have them going on tirades against shit like "Toxic Masculinity" and other such nonsense. Fuck, this blog alone screams Se PoLR: https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013...lways-rape-ok/
Gamma types will never be SJWs. If anything, they are often the most virulent critics of the movement. Betas are interesting since many like Jack Aaron from WSS claims Betas are primarily responsible for their movement. And Beta descriptions indicate that they are most likely to be involved in trying to force societal change. I question that due to my understanding of the functions however.
I agree that this article is likely written by someone who is not Se-valuing but I do not see the Fi-Ne. Fi-Ne evaluates human potential and is used to gain insight into a person’s motivations and character. Fi in Socionics is not morality; it is about relationships and regulating distance in interaction. I think this is a misconception from MBTI.
If you look at what the SJW movement is, as a whole, it seems that it is Fe-Ti valuing and usually involves Betas and Alphas. It is all about creating a global change in society, to improve the future as they see it (Ni-Fe-Se). Also, SJWs tend to categorize everyone. They take categories like a person’s race, economic background, social status, sexual orientation, etc. and use them to label those people as an ‘oppressed group’ that needs equality and somehow isn’t getting it. This is Ti-Fe - categorizing a group and trying to create equality for them. They also create labels for groups - men who are part of the ‘patriarchy’, others who are ‘fascists’ or ‘Nazis’, etc. This is again Ti-Fe creating labels for groups of people in a social system.
Seeing groups as ‘oppressed’ and ‘privileged’ is another sign of Fe-Ti, which is very aware of social hierarchies and rankings.
I would say that these SJW protesters and rioters are also highly likely to be Fe valuers, because it is all about getting a large group together that shares your views and spreading your ideology. They are energized by the atmosphere and the group energy.
Alphas in the SJW movement focus on showing tolerance and acceptance to create equality, and Betas focus on making the social changes to allow that equality to happen. The two work together in the SJW movement using Fe and Ti.
Also, if you look at other movements connected to SJWs such as ‘body positivity’, you can again see Fe valuing - wanting to promote and create positive emotions and feelings of acceptance for all people.
There are many Betas and Alphas who are strongly against the SJW movement and even actively opposing it. And of course there are Deltas and Gammas involved too. Anyone can be involved in anything. But I think the spirit of the SJW movement itself, and the majority of its adherents, are likely Beta/Alpha.
Moreover, a significant portion of the people fighting that fight are very clear about their need to frame everything they do as following the precedents set by their antecessors while refusing on territorial grounds to allow anyone to engage with those cultural influences directly (acknowledge but don't criticize), which strikes me all as Ni+Fe and Se.
I see a strong connection between narcissism/entitlement ("I have the right to become whatever I want") and the dissatisfaction that leads to the SJW victimhood complex ("nasty people are oppressing me and holding me back"). SJWs imagine a number of foes and forces (such as "the patriarchy") to explain away their mediocrity. They project their own shame onto others.
Fundamentally, SJWs are conformists who desire above all to occupy high status positions in society, but for one reason or other, they have not be able to achieve this. What is worse, they will blame others for their failure, and believe themselves above the rules and laws which the rest of us must obey. Their motto is: "Do as I say, not as I do."
In my opinion, these personality traits are very typical of Delta Quadra. However, I'll take some heart from the fact that nobody on 16types seems keen to have their Quadra associated with the SJWs
Edit: OP, I apologize for my off topic post which doesn't help you make a decision. I didn't check the first post when I responded. To answer your question, I'd see if I relate more to victim erotic style or infantile.
Beta NF: Do you fantasize about being chased and enjoy testing your partners? Do you push their buttons and feel delighted when they push back?
Delta NF: Do you enjoy being taken care of and think goofiness is flirting?
Well put. This is how I see a majority of them too.
(1) The biggest problem is that weakness is prized. Instead of addressing it and helping them become stronger (to encourage constructive survival), the SJW movement shows them how to become more distressed and chaotic (to encourage future destruction). There are many mediums through which their weaknesses (feelings of inadequacy, etc) are nurtured. Their inner chaos is transformed into a weapon (external chaos unfurled at specific targets for a purpose) for those who work behind the scenes to create specific impact. That's the story of pretty much every movement and war. It's the story of this one too.
(2) As a result of #1, it is not beneficial to be responsible and self-sustaining. The rewards are in taking from others.
(3) The pawns are selectively blind. They don't notice how they use their own weaknesses as a weapon to destroy those they perceive as stronger than themselves.
(4) There are no consequences for them screwing over someone else because a group did it. Groups can't be arrested if they're too large. The law doesn't apply.
(5) They are unaware that if they destroy everyone who makes money or innovates, then subjugate others and put themselves in charge, they will ensure their own destruction because despite winning, they will still not know how to foster healthy financial thinking.
I think growth is so important. Change is important if it can help the world or even a community grow, but not change which recklessly damages lives for committing the crime of having an opinion and suffers no consequences. That being said, I think it's a pity I'm disgusted by their systems. I think such movements can be capitalized on cleverly.
Last edited by Audacious; 01-15-2018 at 05:01 AM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote