I'm so tired of people mistyping LIEs...

[ashlesha]

When stuff is presented in a Te way, it's like I can read the original source, or see it with my own eyes, and it is there for me to do with as I please. Ti is like I'm expected to take a step along with the person presenting the information - there's an inference or something - and I find myself skeptical and suspicious of that step being taken. It isn't that I'm stupid or illogical and can't follow it. It's more that I don't trust people to remain objective when they take that step. I'm afraid they're intentionally leading the information somewhere, or maybe have an unintentional bias. I find myself stopping each time there is a step taken and thinking about it rather than reading straight through and just taking the information in. Whereas once I find a source trustworthy, I pretty much trust that source. Not blindly - my trust can be lost too. I don't know why but it's hard to explain this stuff in words.

That's my view as a Ti PoLR person.

There seems to be some relationship or trend between efficiency and having Te in the ego block, but Te isn't defined by efficiency. Maybe looking at data in that way leads to it?

.

[ashlesha]

IMO Te as mere actions to be observed makes no sense whatsoever - I couldn't get into this supposed mindset, nor understand it, doing either the old or new set of exercises.

Fe is involved, and so it's concerned with indirectly observable actions (e-motion, wasn't it?) as it is experienced here and now, focusing on what they imply about the object's internal dynamics. Te is abstract, as in it abstracts over explicit actions to find out about a person's functionality. So Je is less of an observed here-and-now action and more of a how does it work.

Just like you described Se as not focusing on a specific characteristic in separation of everything else about an object, but rather gaining information about an object through these, Fe and Te do not gain info *about* actions. They gain information about an object through it's actions. When Fe gains information, it is not just about immediate experience, which most people get (neural response thing), but about their inner workings, motivations, emotionality. When Te gains information, it is not about an object's actions here-and-now, but an abstract understanding of how it operates - input, output, functions, abilities, competence. As in, they both gain information about the object's dynamics.

You do not need Si/Ni for that. Where dynamic field comes in is in how those dynamic objects interact and what pattern emerges from it. It might be weak emergence or strong emergence, but it's about interactions of objects whose dynamics are modeled by Fe/Te.

.

[ashlesha]

Te is about what works in reality, and in order to affect reality or to properly evaluate if something is working, it's necessary to understand reality in its own terms - not the way it's "supposed" to be, or how we wish it would be, or how it can make people happy or unhappy, flattered or offended.

Te is about facts, in the sense that a continuous observation of ever-changing facts is the way to observe reality. Reality is dynamic. If I aim at doing something based on, say, the price of bananas, the only way to check if I'm successful is to continually get information on the price of bananas. I may have a mathematical model as to how the price of bananas might develop, or even a grand idea as to what the prices of bananas should be in a properly run world. That does not change the fact that, at the end of the day, I still have to check what the price of bananas is doing to see if I'm being effective.

And in that case, all I care about is having as accurate information on the price of bananas as possible. I don't care about people packaging it with thoughts like, "oh the prices are a bit low, he'll be upset, I'll tell him they are a bit higher to make him happier". That is precisely the way to annoy me. It just shows me that I can't trust such people to give me accurate information, so I mark them down as unreliable sources.

The example I'm using is trivial, but hopefully it gives you an idea.

.

[squark]

.

What expat said here in your quote: "That does not change the fact that, at the end of the day, I still have to check what the price of bananas is doing to see if I'm being effective."

That's what Sol is doing whenever he asks for a type video. He doesn't want someone's interpretation of their personality, he wants to see the actual person for himself to verify their type. And like it or not, it's what Adam does when he depends on his personal experience and observations to decide what a type is like.

Expat also angered some Fe types with his interpretations that did not appear to listen to their viewpoints at all on what Fe was, because his experience of these types in his reality differed from the interpretations he was hearing.

Te tries to look at non-interpreted, empirical data, but Te types can then easily dismiss the subjective experience or understanding of other people. It's where this quote of Golihov's comes from:

If you try to explain something to him, sooner or later he will say "I got it" and interrupt you since he doesn't aim to attain an understanding. They are interested in facts of objective reality - these are not to be understood, but rather memorized, learned, evaluated, and implemented.

So, Bertrand's criticism of Adam memorizing stereotypes and applying them is a criticism of the bad side of Te lead.

[ashlesha]

I thought I saw pezzovantes posts the first time I clicked when I initially opened the thread and made a mental note to go back later when I had more time. When I clicked again and only saw the one post I assumed I misremembered..

[squark]

As for the now famous "One true LIE" Google site search his name (site:the16types.info pezzonovante) will bring up threads he's posted in, like this one: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...j-and-LSE-ESTj which imo makes him sound like an introverted intuitive.

[Bertrand]

what do you think of expat, lavos? I tend to think of him as the high water mark of LIE posting here

[lavos]

what do you think of expat, lavos? I tend to think of him as the high water mark of LIE posting here

I think that Se valuing in him might be lacking.

[Bertrand]

I think that Se valuing in him might be lacking.

I'm not saying you're saying he can't be LIE, but lets pretend, hypothetically, he's not--what would you type him as? as a best guess

as to pezzonovante, can you say in generalities, what it is about his posting that says LIE to you? (nothing really jumps off the page to me, but I could be missing something... I tend to see more Se in Expat's delivery, if you step away from what they're talking about but focus on how they're talking about it)

I feel like its a fine line between talking about Se "accoutrements" and actually exhibiting Se, but if the former were enough it would make every Ni fetishist a Ni base type

I think, in a weird way, the idea that Se "values" status implies a judgement as to what status must be, when that in of itself is variable, especially across time. What was status in one timeframe is no longer--they invert themselves even (fatness used to be considered beautiful in cultures where nutrition was hard to come by), now we have cars, guns, etc. Its all a proxy. Furthermore it seems to me the stronger intuition of time is the more you get away from stereotypes of Se HA... To me it seems that Se HA in the context of Te is the ability "to really do things"--to see the fruits of one's labor, and it may have very little to do with physical objects. It may be the "actual manifestation" of results in terms of either: things people or events. Trophies to me seem like only one, relatively obtuse, form of satisfying Se HA. While this is extremely vague it still seems to me that Se is more about "power (or conflict) sensing" hence there is a will to power aspect that can find satisfaction in: promulgation of philosophical/literary/religious ideas, matchmaking, policymaking/legal precedent, hierarchical status, control in a business or social setting, money, love. Some of these implicate Ne, but that seems perfectly appropriate to me. To see a book published, it may end up with a far broader Ne influence than the physical object, but they would nonetheless want to "live to see" the evidence that "the plan" is on track, in time (this may not even be a published book, it may be an agreement with someone trusted, or a manuscript for someone to find, etc)... one of the most elegant descriptions I saw of LIE was "see what needs to be done, does it, for any given goal" Obviously all other things being equal, they would drive towards their conclusion, but Ni allows for inertia, they are not so linear and concrete as LSE, to whom if they cannot sense it it does not yet exist

Fe is a direct form of objective judgement, Te is the indirect. Ni is in the indirect form of Si, and Se is the direct form of Ne. So you have indirect objective judgements being made with indirect perceptions guiding them based on the direct form of power layouts and direct form of subjective judgement. In other words the purpose acts with an indirect but objective purpose informed by indirect subjective perceptions, with the real power situation being the basis for self esteem (aka actual manifestation of "fruits"), and guided by subjective value judgements. To me almost anyone could fit into that description, but at the same time almost no one does, because they inevitably tend to care about other things than their own pet projects to the exclusion of all else. strict business logic on the case informed by Ni does seem rare, because of how harsh and demanding it is. if its not for comfort and its strictly rooted in personal values and its not interested in ideas except in their application, why would they be anywhere except exactly where they feel they have something to accomplish..?

it seems to me "Se measure of progress" is distinct in precisely the way that commonly gets confused. Which is that a bmw doesn't make you rich. People chase the trophy as an "indicator" of wealth, but it is backward. LIE, gamma NT in general, sees results as a boost to self esteem because it evidences real achievement, but that doesn't mean you can go out and substitute the trophy for the achievement and work backward. that is where I feel like the primary misunderstanding occurs, and when people chase those trophies, people confuse that as LIE behavior. Its actually people emulating LIE behavior but backwards, because society values LIE style achievement but people tangle it up. it is the "American Dream" and its sort of been flipped on its head

I'm not saying you don't understand any of this, I just sort of got off on a tangent, because I think Se HA in the context of TeNi is loaded with projections from other types and values. and its precisely what's wrong with this place's image of LIE, and the people who imitate it, are trapped in exactly the kind of viscious circle I described above, which is a copy of a copy of the American Dream

[lavos]

I'm not saying you're saying he can't be LIE, but lets pretend, hypothetically, he's not--what would you type him as? as a best guess

Not sure. Some people used to think he was LSE back then. I personally don't have an opinion.

as to pezzonovante, can you say in generalities, what it is about his posting that says LIE to you? (nothing really jumps off the page to me, but I could be missing something... I tend to see more Se in Expat's delivery, if you step away from what they're talking about but focus on how they're talking about it)

I feel like its a fine line between talking about Se "accoutrements" and actually exhibiting Se, but if the former were enough it would make every Ni fetishist a Ni base type

I think, in a weird way, that Se "values" status implies a judgement as to what status must be, when that in of itself is variable, especially across time. What was status in one timeframe is no longer--they invert themselves even (fatness used to be considered beautiful in cultures where nutrition was hard to come by), now we have cars, guns, etc. Its all a proxy. Furthermore it seems to me the stronger intuition of time is the more you get away from stereotypes of Se HA...

No point discussing about pezzonovante's posting history, since it's gone.

[Bertrand]

No point discussing about pezzonovante's posting history, since it's gone.

I just want to know what it was about it that made you think it was quintessential LIE, I don't need to know what exactly was said, just their flavor

[Bertrand]

honestly you sound like a weird conspiracy theorist because who gives a fuck what happened to his posts, and you're using it to cop out on the means that are available to you, almost like you can't make use of them to make a decent point

a discussion of LIE doesn't require this random guys posts, and saying "Te Ni" in response to what you thought made him LIE is just stupid. if it were that simple you never would have made this thread, because people would understand what Te Ni means and they obviously don't.

[lavos]

honestly you sound like a weird conspiracy theorist because who gives a fuck what happened to his posts, and you're using it to cop out on the means that are available to you, almost like you can't make use of them to make a decent point

I'm just a person who uses his brain. You see, I just don't have any interest in this discussion after what happened to those posts. Te with Ni is just that. A LIE is not much different from an ILI, in the same sense that an SLE is not much different from an LSI. But people seem to forget that.

[Bertrand]

I'm just a person who uses his brain. You see, I just don't have any interest in this discussion after what happened to those posts. Te with Ni is just that. A LIE is not much different from an ILI, in the same sense that an SLE is not much different from an LSI. But people seem to forget that.

so what goals are you meeting by posting this

[lavos]

so what goals are you meeting by posting this

Hopefully, for people to re-evaluate their understanding of the LIE type, use their common sense, and not merely accept what some other people might portray about the LIE type, intentionally or not.

[Bertrand]

So, Bertrand's criticism of Adam memorizing stereotypes and applying them is a criticism of the bad side of Te lead.

just, no

Te lead doesn't aim to attain an understanding for its own sake, but inasmuch as it facilitates their objectives you can bet they gain a very rigorous understanding of things. stereotypes are something completely different than Te/Ti. I get it that Te looks like a stereotype from the perspective of Ti. The point is Adam acts out that understanding. Just because you two share that understanding of Te, doesn't make his charade the real deal. It only looks that way from your perspective on Te. Te actually develops understanding that exceeds the Ti of its time. A "superficial" conceptual understanding that transcends time but works, is something more than a stereotype by definition (its the definition of better, or you could say elegant). they develop heuristics, the point of Adams behavior is it is actively misleading not more helpful than not. its only "helpful" to a certain segment of the community that understands things in a similarly flawed and motivated way

your post is literally thrusting a stereotype on people in the name of such a thing being ok because that's what Te is. its stereotype ception

its a Ti crystallization of a wrong intuition

stereotyping is literally anything any type can do and is definitely not the unifying feature of Te dom through which we can bundle people. at worst Te dom would be characterized by insightful "stereotypes" because of its 4d nature. its literally its gift to humanity. stereotypes that are fundamentally mistaken but deemed sufficient are characteristic of low d unconscious Te. i would go so far as to say the worst at this is Te polr types followed by Te ignoring. its rigid thinking

[squark]

just, no

Te lead doesn't aim to attain an understanding for its own sake, but inasmuch as it facilitates their objectives you can bet they gain a very rigorous understanding of things. stereotypes are something completely different than Te/Ti. I get it that Te looks like a stereotype from the perspective of Ti. The point is Adam acts out that understanding. Just because you two share that understanding of Te, doesn't make his charade the real deal. It only looks that way from your perspective on Te. Te actually develops understanding that exceeds the Ti of its time. A superficial conceptual understanding that transcends time but works, is something more than a stereotype by definition. they develop heuristics, the point of Adams behavior is it is actively misleading not more helpful than not. its only "helpful" to a certain segment of the community that understands things in a similarly flawed and motivated way

your post is literally thrusting a stereotype on people in the name of such a thing being ok because that's what Te is. its stereotype ception

its a Ti crystallization of a wrong intuition

Meh. I'm not trying to make Adam into an example of a typical Te lead. I don't think he's typical, but he's still using Te and he's ignoring Ti. Expat ignored Fe more than Ti (not in terms of ignoring function just in terms of how much emphasis he put on it,) he was much more willing to look at Ti reasoning and get into all the theoretical aspects of socionics and much less willing to try to be friendly or use much Fe role. He was far more clearly a logical type. Adam isn't.

So no, it's not thrusting a stereotype on people, it's giving a broader range of expressions of a given type. There's more to Te than the narrow window you're allowing it in other words.

[Bertrand]

4d Te is being a dumbass, you heard it here first folks

just giving it "broad expression"

its always been my case that people conferred the "Te dom" label on Adam as a charity and that's precisely the problem, because it corrupts everything as a manifest degradation of the concept and by proxy all Te valuers. my point has been people do this strictly in order to be polite and cover territory. my point is inasmuch as no one points out how stupid it is socionics is ultimately undermined because it perverts the image of an entire quadra or two and drives people away

yes you can skew things to include Adam. no, its not worth it--its counterproductive in time. that makes it wrong

to characterize this as being the essence of Te dominance is to unravel the very logical fabric of the Jungian intuition underlying socionics, but people can't see it, because all they can see is his stupid Fe begging

[ashlesha]

4d Te is being a dumbass, you heard it here first folks

just giving it "broad expression"

its always been my case that people conveyed the "Te dom" label on Adam as a charity and that's precisely the problem, because it corrupts everything as such a manifest degradation of the concept and by proxy all Te valuers. my point has been people do this strictly in order to be polite and cover territory. my point is inasmuch as no one points out how stupid it is socionics is ultimately undermined because it perverts the image of an entire quadra or two and drives people away

yes you can skew things to include Adam. its not worth it, its counterproductive in time. that makes it wrong

Im not sure if function placement determines relative levels of skill between elements so much as focus/attitude (thinking about making a thread on this but I don't wanna spend too much time on the forum when I'm not bored at work lol). I guess the focus is on Te, if not the skill. What do you think he's skilled at?

[Adam Strange]

Im not sure if function placement determines relative levels of skill between elements so much as focus/attitude (thinking about making a thread on this but I don't wanna spend too much time on the forum when I'm not bored at work lol). I guess the focus is on Te, if not the skill. What do you think he's skilled at?

You could just ask me.

I have a good singing voice and I set the city record in long jump many years ago. I also guessed the number of jelly beans in a jar at the library, and won the jar as the prize.

[ashlesha]

You could just ask me.

I have a good singing voice and I set the city record in long jump many years ago. I also guessed the number of jelly beans in a jar at the library, and won the jar as the prize.

Lol, I was going to suggest persistently working to form positive interpersonal relationships. I'm sure the unassuming optimistism works on some people.

[Adam Strange]

Lol, I was going to suggest persistently working to form positive interpersonal relationships. I'm sure the unassuming optimistism works on some people.

Yes, it does.

It also helps that I don't try to make other people feel worse than they already do, and I believe that sometimes, everyone could use a helping hand. Only the first is a skill, though. The second is a belief.

[Bertrand]

Im not sure if function placement determines relative levels of skill between elements so much as focus/attitude (thinking about making a thread on this but I don't wanna spend too much time on the forum when I'm not bored at work lol). I guess the focus is on Te, if not the skill. What do you think he's skilled at?

Adam is good at being the front line

[squark]

its always been my case that people conferred the "Te dom" label on Adam as a charity and that's precisely the problem, because it corrupts everything as a manifest degradation of the concept and by proxy all Te valuers. my point has been people do this strictly in order to be polite and cover territory. my point is inasmuch as no one points out how stupid it is socionics is ultimately undermined because it perverts the image of an entire quadra or two and drives people away

yes you can skew things to include Adam. no, its not worth it--its counterproductive in time. that makes it wrong

to characterize this as being the essence of Te dominance is to unravel the very logical fabric of the Jungian intuition underlying socionics, but people can't see it, because all they can see is his stupid Fe begging

Maybe I'm just in the business of burning down idols - in this case your Te idol. I'm joking, but maybe that'll be a positive side effect. I'm not just being polite to him. If there was something besides Te that I thought fit him better, I'd say so.

[Bertrand]

Maybe I'm just in the business of burning down idols - in this case your Te idol. I'm joking, but maybe that'll be a positive side effect. I'm not just being polite to him. If there was something besides Te that I thought fit him better, I'd say so.

my whole point has always been that people thinking Te fits him best is a sham and a problem. you're just a testament to the sham working. there's a reason adam and betas all get along so well

and its not that hes the face of LIE or Te

It also helps that I don't try to make other people feel worse than they already do

2d ethics of emotion (norms) maybe Si in there

I believe that sometimes, everyone could use a helping hand.

does anyone not believe this?

[ashlesha]

does anyone not believe this?

Lol sink or swim bitches

[Singu]

my whole point has always been that people thinking Te fits him best is a sham and a problem. you're just a testament to the sham working. there's a reason adam and betas all get along so well

Maybe he just gets along with everyone. Of course, getting along with everyone only proves that he's not a real Gamma. Catch-22.

You're not even entertaining the possibility that there is even a slimmer of chance that he could be a LIE. And yet you're demanding that he should be more "open minded" and consider other possibilities, that you yourself conveniently exempt yourself from.

Face it Bertrand, you're a hypocrite. And your entire argument is largely circular, as always.

[Raver]

Let's be real here folks, not all types are created equal and some types are better than others and LIE is the best type you can possibly be and they are extremely rare. That is why everyone wants to be LIE, but are really just wanna be LIEs. How do I know this?

LIEs make the most money out of all the types, case closed. Pezzonovante is probably a multi-millionaire at the very least like all LIEs are. That is why ESI are their duals, since they are gold diggers that need LIEs to provide everything for them, it is a win-win :

 

[Bertrand]

not sure if Fi or Ni polr

it sounds like the one dimensional cliches Trump comes up with to try and appear human, and then you realize there's absolutely no substance to it

then they go back to spewing repugnant shit and for whatever reason they feel they've struck some kind of balance

"he's so terrible it must be Te" yup, that is adaptation to a system

[Singu]

When stuff is presented in a Te way, it's like I can read the original source, or see it with my own eyes, and it is there for me to do with as I please. Ti is like I'm expected to take a step along with the person presenting the information - there's an inference or something - and I find myself skeptical and suspicious of that step being taken. It isn't that I'm stupid or illogical and can't follow it. It's more that I don't trust people to remain objective when they take that step. I'm afraid they're intentionally leading the information somewhere, or maybe have an unintentional bias. I find myself stopping each time there is a step taken and thinking about it rather than reading straight through and just taking the information in. Whereas once I find a source trustworthy, I pretty much trust that source. Not blindly - my trust can be lost too. I don't know why but it's hard to explain this stuff in words.

That's my view as a Ti PoLR person.

There seems to be some relationship or trend between efficiency and having Te in the ego block, but Te isn't defined by efficiency. Maybe looking at data in that way leads to it?

Maybe this has more to do with cognitive bias, almost everyone cares about the "source" or one's own beliefs or the conclusion first, then evaluate the strength of its argument (if that ever happens at all).

Belief bias is the tendency to judge the strength of arguments based on the plausibility of their conclusion rather than how strongly they support that conclusion. A person is more likely to accept arguments that supports a conclusion that aligns with our values, beliefs and prior knowledge, while rejecting counter arguments to the conclusion. Belief bias is an extremely common and therefore significant form of error; we can easily be blinded by our beliefs and reach the wrong conclusion. Belief bias has been found to influence various reasoning tasks, including conditional reasoning, relation reasoning and transitive reasoning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_bias

[Bertrand]

that's exactly right, Te has become this stereotype of shit reasoning

[Singu]

that's exactly right, Te has become this stereotype of shit reasoning

Which is ironic, because you're using that very kind of "shit" reasoning. You have already concluded that Adam is not an LIE, and you're coming up with all sorts of justifications for it later.

[ashlesha]

that's exactly right, Te has become this stereotype of shit reasoning

That was Te from the perspective of an iee before it became about arbitrarily giving orders. Maybe it's my also low d Te but it works for me and provides an alternative viewpoint to the "trust me, I'm smart" version of Te.

[Bertrand]

That was Te from the perspective of an iee before it became about arbitrarily giving orders. Maybe it's my also low d Te but it works for me and provides an alternative viewpoint to the "trust me, I'm smart" version of Te.

right I'm saying the characterization of Te from this IEE was subsequently labeled a self justification and product of bias, when in fact IEEs are probably the least biased people there are--because people view Te as inherently prejudicial. its like they don't understand how it could be objective. so when Adam comes along and does his stupid Te mimickry, it plays right into the hands of this belief by being completely unhelpful and obviously biased. He shows them the face of Te they want to see, so they can comfortably compartmentalize gamma away, without really having to reckon with the reality. Its like we live in a gamma society. the psychological pressure that creates for people to rationalize away anything indicating a personal shortcoming is huge. its like escapist fiction to simply cope in that way, chalk it all up to the insanity of the world and cloister in an echo chamber. its diametrically opposed to the spirit of what Jung developed typology for

[Singu]

right I'm saying the characterization of Te from this IEE was subsequently labeled a self justification and product of bias, when in fact IEEs are probably the least biased people there are--because people view Te as inherently prejudicial. its like they don't understand how it could be objective. so when Adam comes along and does his stupid Te mimickry, it plays right into the hands of this belief by being completely unhelpful and obviously biased. He shows them the face of Te they want to see, so they can comfortably compartmentalize gamma away, without really having to reckon with the reality. Its like we live in a gamma society. the psychological pressure that creates for people to rationalize away anything indicating a personal shortcoming is huge. its like escapist fiction to simply cope in that way, chalk it all up to the insanity of the world and cloister in an echo chamber. its diametrically opposed to the spirit of what Jung developed typology for

Just idiocy and moving the goalpost. No where did I say it had anything to do with IEEs or Te, I said that it's a product of general human cognition, the tendency to fall into the error of this kind of thinking.

[ashlesha]

That.... isn't at all how I read slackers post. I just saw that she wanted to be able to follow the reasoning without having to take anything on faith. I really don't understand how you got belief bias out of that. Weird.

[Singu]

That.... isn't at all how I read slackers post. I just saw that she wanted to be able to follow the reasoning without having to take anything on faith. I really don't understand how you got belief bias out of that. Weird.

This is what she said:

"When stuff is presented in a Te way, it's like I can read the original source, or see it with my own eyes, and it is there for me to do with as I please.
...
Whereas once I find a source trustworthy, I pretty much trust that source. Not blindly - my trust can be lost too. I don't know why but it's hard to explain this stuff in words."

[Bertrand]

That.... isn't at all how I read slackers post. I just saw that she wanted to be able to follow the reasoning without having to take anything on faith. I really don't understand how you got belief bias out of that. Weird.

people just view non Ti valuing as inherently biased. Adam plays right into this, so he's beloved by the Te haters. The idea that Te could be less biased is a foreign concept, but to us it seems like Ti takes just as much on faith, just at a different point. Its how squark's post was well reasoned, but firmly entrenched in the system and biased in that regard. But good luck getting someone like singu or the beta collective to acknowledge that. No the bias is against Adam, it cannot be that people have erroneously biased for him

ultimately belief bias describes both forms of unfounded inference, but singularity has a habit of assuming these concepts exist to serve his agenda and could only mean what he narrowly applies it toward, which is itself a product of bias. the entire point of socionics is to get outside this way of thinking, but you see it get dragged back down into it constantly. singu would probably view the fact that it can as a testament to its own untruth, hence he's doing God's work by punching holes in it in this way

in this sense the fact that Adam "breaks" the system is not Adam's fault but his virtue, and he is entitled to be whatever he wants because inasmuch as socionics hasn't "stopped" him, it deserves to be mired in confusion and forgotten

[Singu]

people just view non Ti valuing as inherently biased. Adam plays right into this, so he's beloved by the Te haters. The idea that Te could be less biased is a foreign concept, but to us it seems like Ti takes just as much on faith, just at a different point. Its how squark's post was well reasoned, but firmly entrenched in the system and biased in that regard. But good luck getting someone like singu or the beta collective to acknowledge that. No the bias is against Adam, it cannot be that people have erroneously biased for him

I said everyone is like that, noob.

[ashlesha]

Yeah, I can read. I still don't see that.