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Thread: Differences between LIE-ENTj and LSE-ESTj

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    Default Differences between LIE-ENTj and LSE-ESTj

    'cos they look the same to me.

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    heh I posted a joke thread about this once, but people got really irritated.

    To oversimplify one of the differences often present: ESTjs work hard to plan for the short term/present, ENTjs work hard to plan for the long term.

    It would be a good idea to check out the dichotomies. I think a lot of the threads about them have resurfaced in General due to a bunch of other threads disappearing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    heh I posted a joke thread about this once, but people got really irritated.

    To oversimplify one of the differences often present: ESTjs work hard to plan for the short term/present, ENTjs work hard to plan for the long term.

    It would be a good idea to check out the dichotomies. I think a lot of the threads about them have resurfaced in General due to a bunch of other threads disappearing.
    She said "in real life" meaning that, what you say isn't really interpretable until somebody has gotten to know the person decently (unless the person goes around boistering his stuff, but I think that this is not the case).

    Well ENTjs have the jumpy walk which is not present in ESTjs. ENTjs emotions are more adaptable, ESTjs are a bit more jerky when showing them. ENTjs are positivist, and this is the easiest to tell when interacting with them - mention any problem, and it's likely to be shunned - of course, with a motivation given. Mention a problem to an ESTj, and they'll mention theirs. ESTjs tend to complain about their workloads more (at least, in adult life), and tend to work a lot for nothing (imho). ESTjs are more tradition-oriented in regard to family matters, education, etc.

    ENTjs are a bit more of slackers, but not much, I mean, we could say that they know when to put the effort, which would be a more positive depiction. ESTjs fare better with girls, usually. This is not to say that girls are less attracted to ENTjs - but it's just that ESTjs have the more stereotypically manly attitude and so, especially when young, they can pull it off without the girl thinking that they're strange or something like that. Beware: some ENTps can be similar to the ENTj described. At this point, the way to go is to see whether there is a list of goals in their life, or not. ENTps rarely have it. ENTjs, usually, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Well ENTjs have the jumpy walk which is not present in ESTjs. ENTjs emotions are more adaptable, ESTjs are a bit more jerky when showing them. ENTjs are positivist, and this is the easiest to tell when interacting with them - mention any problem, and it's likely to be shunned - of course, with a motivation given. Mention a problem to an ESTj, and they'll mention theirs. ESTjs tend to complain about their workloads more (at least, in adult life), and tend to work a lot for nothing (imho). ESTjs are more tradition-oriented in regard to family matters, education, etc.

    ENTjs are a bit more of slackers, but not much, I mean, we could say that they know when to put the effort, which would be a more positive depiction. ESTjs fare better with girls, usually. This is not to say that girls are less attracted to ENTjs - but it's just that ESTjs have the more stereotypically manly attitude and so, especially when young, they can pull it off without the girl thinking that they're strange or something like that. Beware: some ENTps can be similar to the ENTj described. At this point, the way to go is to see whether there is a list of goals in their life, or not. ENTps rarely have it. ENTjs, usually, yes.
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    entjs are humbler and more spazzy and maybe have crazy hair while estjs prefer to hide their faults and stick out their chest (figuratively) like birds and they are both brilliant maybe but entjs will have crazier ideas compared to the very traditional and guarded estjs imoimioimoimoiom
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    ESTjs fare better with girls, usually. This is not to say that girls are less attracted to ENTjs - but it's just that ESTjs have the more stereotypically manly attitude and so, especially when young, they can pull it off without the girl thinking that they're strange or something like that.
    Yes that is very insightful (as is the rest of FDG's post).

    ENTjs and ESTjs are both Fi dual-seeking; only the ENTj is a Ni Victim and the ESTj is a Si Caregiver. That means that the ESTj finds it easier to be "manly" when approaching someone, with the ENTj being more hesitant. Both, however, are afraid of seeing a Fi bond.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by .thursday
    entjs are humbler and more spazzy and maybe have crazy hair while estjs prefer to hide their faults and stick out their chest (figuratively) like birds and they are both brilliant maybe but entjs will have crazier ideas compared to the very traditional and guarded estjs imoimioimoimoiom
    According to this I'm more like an ESTJ, the traits you describe can apply to either.



    I have a close friend who is an ESTJ and only an idiot wouldn't be able to tell us apart. I think we are on opposite ends of the spectrum, thus we both represent an extreme form of our types. Actual mileage may vary, but use this as a general guide.

    The main difference is how we think. My ESTJ friend is QUICK. He can instantly grasp a situation, always knows whats going on, and can use lightning fast to solve problems. However he never has any idea how to plan things for the long term, it seems that he doesn't even care about what's going to happen in a few months or next year. He has no idea of the long term consequences of his actions.

    On the other hand, I would not call myself quick. Even though I consciously force myself to pay attention to my surroundings, I am always thinking about something else at the same time. When a lot of things are happening at once it takes me a second to figure everything out. When problems arise, instead of going for the obvious quick solution I think many steps in advance to find what will bring me the most long term benefit. I always set very long term goals that take a few years to be realized.
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    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
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    cool avatar. i'm curious as to how you think it applies to either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by .thursday
    cool avatar. i'm curious as to how you think it applies to either.
    Thank you. Well I would say that I prefer to hide my faults and stick out my chest, while my ESTJ friend is more humble, spazzy, and sports an outrageous hairstyle to boot. Both of us are about equal in our crazy ideas or traditionalism. I'm assuming that you listed those traits because you have observed them in ENTJs and ESTJs you know IRL. But since they apply inversely in this case, I came to the conclusion that they can apply to either.
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    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    interesting. thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe
    It's hard to say without context. What are you having trouble differentiating between, exactly?
    Their always get in the way. I used to be quick to assume that someone is ENTj just based on their . Admittedly, I didn't have much quality interactions with EXTjs 'cos we have really different lifestyles and hobbies. It didn't help that the classes and school activities (e.g. Japanese Studies Society) I undertake in college are usually not appealing to EXTjs.

    I think FDG and thursday gave very useful references which I think I can use in differentiating the ESTjs and ENTjs. :wink: (btw, what does "spazzy" means? )

    btw, between the two, which one do you think is cynical, or considered more cynical? I have known some EXTjs who gave me this impression when I talked to them.

    Anyway, after reading the descriptions by FDG about ESTjs, it feels great to know that I've such a cool dual even though I had underestimated them previously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    ESTjs fare better with girls, usually. This is not to say that girls are less attracted to ENTjs - but it's just that ESTjs have the more stereotypically manly attitude and so, especially when young, they can pull it off without the girl thinking that they're strange or something like that.
    Yes that is very insightful (as is the rest of FDG's post).

    ENTjs and ESTjs are both Fi dual-seeking; only the ENTj is a Ni Victim and the ESTj is a Si Caregiver. That means that the ESTj finds it easier to be "manly" when approaching someone, with the ENTj being more hesitant. Both, however, are afraid of seeing a Fi bond.
    Afraid of seeing a Fi bond? What do you mean? Could you elaborate please? I don't quite understand.

    Anyway, pezzonovante, your description was pretty good & clear. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    ESTjs fare better with girls, usually. This is not to say that girls are less attracted to ENTjs - but it's just that ESTjs have the more stereotypically manly attitude and so, especially when young, they can pull it off without the girl thinking that they're strange or something like that.
    Yes that is very insightful (as is the rest of FDG's post).

    ENTjs and ESTjs are both Fi dual-seeking; only the ENTj is a Ni Victim and the ESTj is a Si Caregiver. That means that the ESTj finds it easier to be "manly" when approaching someone, with the ENTj being more hesitant. Both, however, are afraid of seeing a Fi bond.
    Afraid of seeing a Fi bond? What do you mean? Could you elaborate please? I don't quite understand.

    Anyway, pezzonovante, your description was pretty good & clear. Thanks.
    Thanks. I was curious about what an Fi-bond was too, I don't think I've ever seen that term be used before.
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    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    Quote Originally Posted by pezzonovante
    Quote Originally Posted by .thursday
    entjs are humbler and more spazzy and maybe have crazy hair while estjs prefer to hide their faults and stick out their chest (figuratively) like birds and they are both brilliant maybe but entjs will have crazier ideas compared to the very traditional and guarded estjs imoimioimoimoiom
    According to this I'm more like an ESTJ, the traits you describe can apply to either.



    I have a close friend who is an ESTJ and only an idiot wouldn't be able to tell us apart. I think we are on opposite ends of the spectrum, thus we both represent an extreme form of our types. Actual mileage may vary, but use this as a general guide.

    The main difference is how we think. My ESTJ friend is QUICK. He can instantly grasp a situation, always knows whats going on, and can use lightning fast to solve problems. However he never has any idea how to plan things for the long term, it seems that he doesn't even care about what's going to happen in a few months or next year. He has no idea of the long term consequences of his actions.

    On the other hand, I would not call myself quick. Even though I consciously force myself to pay attention to my surroundings, I am always thinking about something else at the same time. When a lot of things are happening at once it takes me a second to figure everything out. When problems arise, instead of going for the obvious quick solution I think many steps in advance to find what will bring me the most long term benefit. I always set very long term goals that take a few years to be realized.
    Are you sure that your friend isn't ENTp? I wouldn't call ESTjs logic "Lightning fast" - but that might be just different experiences.

    Anyway, after reading the descriptions by FDG about ESTjs, it feels great to know that I've such a cool dual even though I had underestimated them previously.
    Very good then, because I feared that the description was a bit unfair for the ESTjs and better on the ENTj side.
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    I am sure he is an ESTJ. He is a very practical and grounded guy. I'm sure some of his quickness is just pure genetic ability, but I emphasized it to contrast it with how I think and operate.
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    "A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it..."

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible."
    - Thomas E Lawrence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Afraid of seeing a Fi bond? What do you mean? Could you elaborate please? I don't quite understand.
    is the function (obviously present in all types) related to connections between people as individuals. It's what makes you trust someone with secrets, with your life even, just because you know that person won't betray you. It's what I meant in my now-vanished-but-soon-to-be-restored description of Fi as laser beams between people. Or, alternatively, it's about knowing that someone else is a total asshole who deserves no trust whatsoever.

    For Fe>Fi people, this is tempered or overruled by "sure he's an asshole, I wouldn't trust him with anything, but he's still fun to have a drink with". Fi>Fe people have a problem with this: "why should I want to have a drink with an asshole, even if he's 'fun'"?

    We have now an example with the recent defacing of the forum. As far as I am concerned, Ashton, Justin and Anielka can all go to hell and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with them, ever. The mere thought of even talking to them makes me ill. Others, however, while disapproving of what they did, would have no problem having inconsequentional, "fun" chats with them.

    The Fi dual-seeking EXTjs are a bit naive with this. They long for a positive Fi bond with others, but they (1) are unsure of their ability to actually detect it correctly and therefore (2) are suspicious about seeing one when it isn't there. That is why they need an IXFj.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Quote Originally Posted by Mea
    Afraid of seeing a Fi bond? What do you mean? Could you elaborate please? I don't quite understand.
    The Fi dual-seeking EXTjs are a bit naive with this. They long for a positive Fi bond with others, but they (1) are unsure of their ability to actually detect it correctly and therefore (2) are suspicious about seeing one when it isn't there. That is why they need an IXFj.
    Ooo. I see. Well, this last paragraph was that I didn't get earlier. Thanks.
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    My friend and I were talking to an ESTj and ENTj today. I noticed something that differentiates both of them: the ESTj is more cynical than the ENTJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    The Fi dual-seeking EXTjs are a bit naive with this. They long for a positive Fi bond with others, but they (1) are unsure of their ability to actually detect it correctly and therefore (2) are suspicious about seeing one when it isn't there. That is why they need an IXFj.
    This is a good way to make the distinction between Fi PoLR and Fi Dual-Seeking: Fi PoLR types usually assume a relationship with someone, and are hurt when it turns out they dont, while Fi DS types will assume they don't have a relationship with someone, and will be pleasantly suprised when they realize that they do.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilligan
    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    The Fi dual-seeking EXTjs are a bit naive with this. They long for a positive Fi bond with others, but they (1) are unsure of their ability to actually detect it correctly and therefore (2) are suspicious about seeing one when it isn't there. That is why they need an IXFj.
    This is a good way to make the distinction between Fi PoLR and Fi Dual-Seeking: Fi PoLR types usually assume a relationship with someone, and are hurt when it turns out they dont
    Yeah, for me it's like a wave - one day I assume there is, then I think "well, but why" and I think there isn't, etc.

    Not to mention that even if I don't want a relationship with a given person, I'd still like him/her to continue being a fan of me
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    We have now an example with the recent defacing of the forum. As far as I am concerned, Ashton, Justin and Anielka can all go to hell and I wouldn't want to have anything to do with them, ever. The mere thought of even talking to them makes me ill. Others, however, while disapproving of what they did, would have no problem having inconsequentional, "fun" chats with them.
    Ah yes, this is a good distinction.
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    my bros are ESTj and ENTj. the first one is highly practical, can fix almost anything. it's true that they are very manly in that way. he also happens to be highly impulsive. a traditionalist who sticks with old friendships even when they've gone sour. will not try any exotic foods. great in crisis situations though. could have easily made a good paramedic. great leadership qualities. does not seek the limelight. good citizen. good hearted.

    the ENTj is nice to everybody even if he has no idea who they are. often looks down on certain individuals without ever telling them. extremely popular (especially with girls). girls go up to him and are more interested in their idea of him (former jock who has plenty of cash) than to the true self. knows how to make an impression without trying too hard. not very practical and emotionally unstable. not good in crisis situations. tends to overreact to things. natural knack at running a business. will try exotic food if pushed but is likely not to try again afterwards.
    IEI - the nasty kind...

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    My best friend is an ENTj. After years of dealing with him I met annother ENTj which is now a very good friend of me also. ENTj are rare, but to me they are quite easy to spot.

    Things that differentiate them:

    ENTj are intellectuals. They like to discuss abstract theories. You can talk endlessly to them if it concerns economics at all scales (regional, global).

    ESTj care only about tangible things. What is profitable, what is possible. They don't really care that much of what happens beyong their immediate personal sphere (i.e. no interest for global politics and such).

    ENTj have very good sense of humor. They get jokes very well and laugh out loud.

    ESTj have sense of humor too, but you can eventually get their famous "hey, grow up..." moto.

    ENTj are openly emotional. They display their emotions without much reserves.

    Overall, ESTj tend to be pessimistic and ENTj optimistic. ESTj prepare themselves for the worst, ENTj for the best.
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    I bumped into my ESTj (or ENTj) ex-classmate today, and he was wearing a furry house slippers ( ) around campus 'cos his old slippers have spoilt. I also realized that he loves to wear the same clothes over and over again even though they look rather worn out (nope, he's not poor). I guess he probably finds them comfortable. Is it, erm, common for ESTjs to be not fashionable or wear something that is inappropriate? On a side note, it made me realized that my ENTj friends tend to be trendy and fashionable.

    I guess maybe it got to do with frugality. My ENTj friends love to spend money on expensive stuff that is branded and long-lasting. Since ESTjs are usually traditional and family-oriented, I guess they are probably less frivolous and prefer simple pleasures in life. I guess to them, it is more appropriate to spend more money for the family rather than themselves.

    I also noticed that ESTjs tend to have relatively less confidence compared to ENTjs. I have observed a few who try hard to be ENTjs. They are more likely to put themselves down as compared to ENTjs and they have a self-deprecating humor which I find hard to fathom. It makes them appear negative despite their high achievements.

    Not sure if my observation is correct though.

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    Shoot one in the leg. If he goes to work the next morning he's an ESTj.

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    Clothing styles: brand clothing can also be inappropriate; I'd say that in most occasions in which people seems to freely utilize brand clothing (say, a classroom) it would actually be better to dress with more restraint. So, I don't think that if an ESTj shows to be less concerned about image than an ENTj, this means that the ENTj is actually better at dressing.

    The last part of your description is probably related to the negativism vs positivism dichotomy. Don't make the mistake to associate it with self-confidence though.

    lol @ discojoe
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    Quote Originally Posted by .thursday
    entjs are humbler and more spazzy and maybe have crazy hair while estjs prefer to hide their faults and stick out their chest (figuratively) like birds and they are both brilliant maybe but entjs will have crazier ideas compared to the very traditional and guarded estjs imoimioimoimoiom
    I have noticed this posture thing myself with all ESTjs I know. Though I disagree on the brilliance issue. I have yet to see even the slightest hint of its existence in this type. Always judging from personal acquaitances of course.

    FDGs description above is uite spot-on, imo
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    ESTj care only about tangible things. What is profitable, what is possible. They don't really care that much of what happens beyong their immediate personal sphere (i.e. no interest for global politics and such).
    This is not true. All ESTjs I know are interested in global affairs. I doubt that this is even type-related...


    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    I have noticed this posture thing myself with all ESTjs I know. Though I disagree on the brilliance issue. I have yet to see even the slightest hint of its existence in this type. Always judging from personal acquaitances of course.
    According to my observation, NTs tend to type by intelligence. If someone is brilliant, he just MUST be some sort of NT, most often INTx. University professors are so often typed as NTs just because they are good at their discipline. You would probably mistype a brilliant ESTj as ENTj.

    Ironically, the most brilliant person on the forum, as far as I'm concerned, is INFp.
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    there is a superficiality in ESTjs' 'interest' in global affairs. ESTjs have a tendency to voice opinions in anything and everything, regardless of whether they really know the subject. These opinions are presented as absolute truths and facts. I am not sure whether they are in fact conscious of their, at best, limited knowledge of the subject yet they go ahead for the sake of taking the lead in a discussion, appear knowledgeable and authoritative, or whether they trully don;t understand that they are constantly biting more than they can chew. In any case, I would find it hard to deem the extremely naive and simplistic assumptions and reductions upon which their opinions are formed, as suggestive of a brilliant mind at work.

    ENTJs have the tendency to voice opinions on everything too (T at work?) and theirs can also initially be based on way too simplistic an approach. They often tend to extrapolate whatever knowledge and experience they have acquired as experts in a field (say, in computer science) to form opinions about quite unrelated fields. For example an ENTj who works in computing may quite seriously present an opinion of how an economic system works, by drawing all kinds of analogies to the computer systems he/she knows well. This is a natural way of probbing into things we don;t know, however, by drawing analogies that have their beginnings in the areas we know well. ENTjs are interested in getting better knowledge so they are happy to use their opinions as a springboard for a discussion that will, hopefully, lead to a better understanding of the situation. During this process, they hope to see their assumptions challenged, even overturned, in the face of better supported arguments. ESTjs, on the other hand, have no interest in deapening their knowledge. Their voicing of an opinion is merely an attempt to participate and impress- dominate any discussion. Hence the shallowness of their approach.
    Furthermore, ENTjs add to their knowledge with the aim of using it in some future project. I have yet to see any evidence of such intentions in ESTjs minds, at least to the extend that it can be derived from their actions and words.

    As for typing people on intelligence, I do tend to assign more weight to a person's intellectual capacity, as I perceive it, when I form an opinion of him/her, but not to type that person. The smartest person I know is an INFp as well, and I know some very smart ENFps, ESFjs, INFjs etc.

    As always, the above are not presented are general truths, nor as representative of the position of NTs or even INTps. They are only my opinion
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    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    there is a superficiality in ESTjs' 'interest' in global affairs. ESTjs have a tendency to voice opinions in anything and everything, regardless of whether they really know the subject. These opinions are presented as absolute truths and facts. I am not sure whether they are in fact conscious of their, at best, limited knowledge of the subject yet they go ahead for the sake of taking the lead in a discussion, appear knowledgeable and authoritative, or whether they trully don;t understand that they are constantly biting more than they can chew. In any case, I would find it hard to deem the extremely naive and simplistic assumptions and reductions upon which their opinions are formed, as suggestive of a brilliant mind at work.
    This is what I really hate about Socionics. These sweeping generalizations based on a few people (who have probably been mistyped anyway). People's interests and willingness to learn are not type-related. I know some very naive INTps who are arrogant enough to assume that they are oh-so intellectually deep and superior while in reality their knowledge is limited due to weak and an inability to acknowledge that they, too, have their limits.

    But I would not say that this is the typical INTp just as these ESTjs you know are not typical ESTjs. Being naive, making simplistic assumptions, and being arrogant has little to do with type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    As for typing people on intelligence, I do tend to assign more weight to a person's intellectual capacity, as I perceive it, when I form an opinion of him/her, but not to type that person. The smartest person I know is an INFp as well, and I know some very smart ENFps, ESFjs, INFjs etc.
    I did not doubt that. But your opinion about ESTjs makes me rather sure that you would not type a person who is intellectually capable and has a broad as well as deep level of knowledge as ESTj.
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    You have to take into account that his perispective is biased, being a supervisor, Kim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    As for typing people on intelligence, I do tend to assign more weight to a person's intellectual capacity, as I perceive it, when I form an opinion of him/her, but not to type that person. The smartest person I know is an INFp as well, and I know some very smart ENFps, ESFjs, INFjs etc.
    I did not doubt that. But your opinion about ESTjs makes me rather sure that you would not type a person who is intellectually capable and has a broad as well as deep level of knowledge as ESTj.
    It's true that I would start with a negative bias, based on the 5 ESTjs I know, thinking that their tendency towards intellectual shallowness and superficiality would prevent them from acquiring a "broad and deep" knowledge, even if the intellectual potential was there. I would expect a "brilliant" person to exhibit a curiosity and desire to "know things", and i have not seen any signs of this in ESTjs.
    Furthermore, unlike Eunice, I find it quite easy to identify the types I already know. There are some types I don;t rally know, (eg INTjs) but I doubt I would mistype, say, an ESTj for INTj ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You have to take into account that his perispective is biased, being a supervisor, Kim.
    Everyone's perspective is biased. That's why we always express opinions, never objective truths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    You have to take into account that his perispective is biased, being a supervisor, Kim.
    Everyone's perspective is biased. That's why we always express opinions, never objective truths.
    Ok, but if we take into account that you are also in the position of seeing their flaws more easily, then it's understandable that you don't have a good opinion of them.
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    Generalizing about a type being shallow, another being arrogant, another being oblivious, another being xyz defeats the purpose of Socionics.
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    Based solely on the ESTjs and ENTjs I've known, I'd say the main difference is in how they look at the future, particularly where finances are concerned. Both work hard to make money and are driven, but the ESTjs are more risk adverse. They want investments that have guaranteed returns, and the more long term the investment it is, the less risk they're willing to assume. They have no problem with making immediate investments (such as their time and energy) for immediate pay off, but if something requires a lot of effort and offers only potential or long term pay off, they are more likely to see working overtime as a better option. If they do assume risk, it has an immediate or short term pay off. Security is important to them.

    That's just my observations though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim
    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    there is a superficiality in ESTjs' 'interest' in global affairs. ESTjs have a tendency to voice opinions in anything and everything, regardless of whether they really know the subject. These opinions are presented as absolute truths and facts. I am not sure whether they are in fact conscious of their, at best, limited knowledge of the subject yet they go ahead for the sake of taking the lead in a discussion, appear knowledgeable and authoritative, or whether they trully don;t understand that they are constantly biting more than they can chew. In any case, I would find it hard to deem the extremely naive and simplistic assumptions and reductions upon which their opinions are formed, as suggestive of a brilliant mind at work.
    This is what I really hate about Socionics. These sweeping generalizations based on a few people (who have probably been mistyped anyway). People's interests and willingness to learn are not type-related. I know some very naive INTps who are arrogant enough to assume that they are oh-so intellectually deep and superior while in reality their knowledge is limited due to weak and an inability to acknowledge that they, too, have their limits.

    But I would not say that this is the typical INTp just as these ESTjs you know are not typical ESTjs. Being naive, making simplistic assumptions, and being arrogant has little to do with type.
    We can't go on with our lives without making decisions. To make those decisions, we need to constantly exercise judgment. Given that no one possesses absolute knowledge of any field, including himself, it is necessary to employ generalisation and categorisation among other tools. Socionics, like every system of typology and taxonomy (not only of personality types) generalises and categorises too. This is the only way to conceptually grasp and summarise an ocean of particulars in any way that may be of some practical and actionable use. The way I see it, this in itself is neither stupid or arrogant, nor wrong in any way. Using these functions while ignoring the natural and unavoidably "unjust" way in which they work, that's what is stupid. With this in mind, I would like to think that I am not as naive as to think that all ESTJs are stupid or that there can't possibly be a "brilliant" ESTj. But based on my observations of representatives of this type that i have come to know reasonably well, so far each of them simply verified the impressions I had formed from the previous ESTj i met. Even if the next one is "brilliant", I would naturally see it more as the exception that verifies the (my - biased, based on my experiences alone) rule.
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    A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Based solely on the ESTjs and ENTjs I've known, I'd say the main difference is in how they look at the future, particularly where finances are concerned. Both work hard to make money and are driven, but the ESTjs are more risk adverse. They want investments that have guaranteed returns, and the more long term the investment it is, the less risk they're willing to assume. They have no problem with making immediate investments (such as their time and energy) for immediate pay off, but if something requires a lot of effort and offers only potential or long term pay off, they are more likely to see working overtime as a better option. If they do assume risk, it has an immediate or short term pay off. Security is important to them.

    That's just my observations though.
    Actually I was just thinking of the same thing now. Here's a recent example from colleagues, both of whom are currently looking for a new job:
    - ENTj: yesterday said that he will probably be accepting an offer by a company where the salary is pretty much the same as his current one. Given his experience and the current strength of the job market inLondon, most people expressed surprise at his likely decision, knowing well that he could easily get a position with significantly more money, albeit rather "stagnant" in terms of future, long term prospects. He answered back that he is taking the position because its nature is such that it will give him exposure to the senior management of most large companies in his market. And this is true, but this is a characteristic of that job that most people would either pay little attention to, being unable or simply not interested in taking advantage of the potentially large networking potential offered, or many people would simply not realise there is such an opportunity on offer because it is not readily monetisable. The ESTj on the other hand, has been offered various jobs in his field which he always openly (to the rest of us) ridicules and rejects. However, he has so far been unable to explain what he liked and what he didn;t like about any of these offers, nor has he been able to make it clear what sort of job he might actually be interested in (in his field, which he claims to find 'fascinating') and why. The only theme that comes into play during these discussions is "money": how much they offer, how much XYZ makes, regardless of actual job task, future opportunities etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grek0
    We can't go on with our lives without making decisions. To make those decisions, we need to constantly exercise judgment. Given that no one possesses absolute knowledge of any field, including himself, it is necessary to employ generalisation and categorisation among other tools. Socionics, like every system of typology and taxonomy (not only of personality types) generalises and categorises too. This is the only way to conceptually grasp and summarise an ocean of particulars in any way that may be of some practical and actionable use.
    a) There is a difference between categorizing things/concepts and people. People cannot be neatly categorized.

    b) I have said before that the way Socionics is handled around here, it is becoming more and more arbitrary. ESTjs ARE something to you, but they will not BE the same to others. So ESTjs ARE not what they seem to you. They APPEAR to be such. Or can you explain your judgement via functions? I maintain that I am sure you have met more ESTjs than you know, but you wouldn't recognize them. I also maintain that some of your ESTjs are not ESTjs. In conclusion, I think it is pointless to categorize people in terms of "they are this and they are that" with utter disregard for function use. What is TeSi? What does healthy TeSi do? Unhealthy TeSi? Ni PoLR? I think we have long reached a point where "I know 5 ESTjs and I am telling you, that is how they are" just doesn't get us anywhere (this is not to say that I haven't done it, too).

    c) The practical use of Socionics is still a mystery to me. It helps me understand certain dynamics between myself and other people, but that's about it. As for actionable use, Socionics is not meant to act on it. It is meant to understand actions. I want to cry every time people say they want to meet their dual...

    Anyway.
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