SEE/ESFp and ILI/INTp Duality? (Aggressor-Victim)

[End]

It's sad but I don't think SEE females actually chase ILI men until later on in life when they want a "weak" provider they can exert power over.

The ones that fail become "cougars" , but it's interesting how an age gap tends to be prevalent in this dual dyad

Age gaps are always going to be common for evolutionary reasons. Men accrue resources over time and women, in the end, desire a big fat pile of resources so that they can be sure that any and all kids they happen to bear are taken care of along with themselves. Thing is though, the and kinda get that subconsciously. The has a lifestyle in mind yet doesn't know how to really fund it. The knows how to fund damn near any swank lifestyle on way less than you'd think in a much easier to achieve basis than the "conventional" wisdom would say is possible but lacks the impetus to do anything except wait and see how events turn out. Basically, they bide their time and don't commit to a plan (that has a 9 out of 10 chance of going just as planned, we are very thorough in our plotting and already have a plan B and C ready to go if A gets fucked) unless someone is pushing them to do so. This is why they like each other so much, they wanna buy what the other is selling. The is pushing, and all is waiting for is to be pushed .

[Olimpia]

It's sad but I don't think SEE females actually chase ILI men until later on in life when they want a "weak" provider they can exert power over.

The ones that fail become "cougars" , but it's interesting how an age gap tends to be prevalent in this dual dyad

That is an overly negative view of both SEEs and ILIs... As if all ILI men were just "weak providers", and SEE women were all control freaks...
I have not noticed any particular trend of female SEEs becoming "cougars", on the contrary, many seem to be primarily attracted to older men and stay that way.
But not all of them are only attracted to older men or big age gaps. Those SEE-ILI Duality couples I know have no big age gaps. As I think of it, I don't know of any female SEE - male ILI couple...
Interestingly, it seems like female ILIs find a male SEE just fine, but with ILI men it is a different story. They seem to go for ESI or EII instead...

I find that female SEEs may appear to chase ILI men only later in life, because at first they go through other types that may appear to fit at first (like most people) – types like LSI, SLE.
ILI men are not that common, and those SEE females who require their guidance usually end up somewhat in despair. Unless they find a nice ESI or SLI, then they calm down a bit.

Age gaps are always going to be common for evolutionary reasons. Men accrue resources over time and women, in the end, desire a big fat pile of resources so that they can be sure that any and all kids they happen to bear are taken care of along with themselves. Thing is though, the and kinda get that subconsciously. The has a lifestyle in mind yet doesn't know how to really fund it. The knows how to fund damn near any swank lifestyle on way less than you'd think in a much easier to achieve basis than the "conventional" wisdom would say is possible but lacks the impetus to do anything except wait and see how events turn out. Basically, they bide their time and don't commit to a plan (that has a 9 out of 10 chance of going just as planned, we are very thorough in our plotting and already have a plan B and C ready to go if A gets fucked) unless someone is pushing them to do so. This is why they like each other so much, they wanna buy what the other is selling. The is pushing, and all is waiting for is to be pushed .

I don't disagree with the evolutionary idea, but I don't see and acting exactly how you describe it here.
SEE-Fi may not know how to fund their lifestyle at first, because of weaker . The other lead types, not so much.
ILI-Te is usually more aware of how to fund a lifestyle, and they don't really wait around too much, they can commit to plans.
From the types, IEI-Fe is the least aware of how to fund anything in a business sense, they just hope that providing service for others in a way will bring them money.

[Resonare]

That is an overly negative view of both SEEs and ILIs... As if all ILI men were just "weak providers", and SEE women were all control freaks...
I have not noticed any particular trend of female SEEs becoming "cougars", on the contrary, many seem to be primarily attracted to older men and stay that way.
But not all of them are only attracted to older men or big age gaps. Those SEE-ILI Duality couples I know have no big age gaps. As I think of it, I don't know of any female SEE - male ILI couple...
Interestingly, it seems like female ILIs find a male SEE just fine, but with ILI men it is a different story. They seem to go for ESI or EII instead...

If I meant all I would've said it

I find that female SEEs may appear to chase ILI men only later in life, because at first they go through other types that may appear to fit at first (like most people) – types like LSI, SLE.
ILI men are not that common, and those SEE females who require their guidance usually end up somewhat in despair. Unless they find a nice ESI or SLI, then they calm down a bit.

I've not heard of ILI men being less common . I think SEE females don't chase ILI males when they are younger because they are perceived as being boring, dull and having nothing to offer. Just like SLEs, SEEs want what is coveted and ILIs have a bit of a reputation for not being as socially likable as say IEI, so at e.g. 18 I don't think many ILI men were catching the eye of the dual and instead dated ESI and IEE like you said, because their dual doesn't want them yet or would prefer an older, more established ILI who is more of a prize to them. From older SEEs that I know, the men they like tend to be interested are pursued by younger women that I suspect are SEE which leaves them sort of "forced" to date younger. When you think about it, the "cougar" type seems to be depicted as an Se-base type quite a lot.

Not sure why you'd think SEEs would go after LSIs (?), I'd think LIE, LSE, SLI and SLE.

Age gaps are always going to be common for evolutionary reasons. Men accrue resources over time and women, in the end, desire a big fat pile of resources so that they can be sure that any and all kids they happen to bear are taken care of along with themselves. Thing is though, the and kinda get that subconsciously. The has a lifestyle in mind yet doesn't know how to really fund it. The knows how to fund damn near any swank lifestyle on way less than you'd think in a much easier to achieve basis than the "conventional" wisdom would say is possible but lacks the impetus to do anything except wait and see how events turn out. Basically, they bide their time and don't commit to a plan (that has a 9 out of 10 chance of going just as planned, we are very thorough in our plotting and already have a plan B and C ready to go if A gets fucked) unless someone is pushing them to do so. This is why they like each other so much, they wanna buy what the other is selling. The is pushing, and all is waiting for is to be pushed .

I don't disagree with the evolutionary idea, but I don't see and acting exactly how you describe it here.
SEE-Fi may not know how to fund their lifestyle at first, because of weaker . The other lead types, not so much.
ILI-Te is usually more aware of how to fund a lifestyle, and they don't really wait around too much, they can commit to plans.
From the types, IEI-Fe is the least aware of how to fund anything in a business sense, they just hope that providing service for others in a way will bring them money.

That does seem more related.

[Olimpia]

Not sure why you'd think SEEs would go after LSIs (?), I'd think LIE, LSE, SLI and SLE.

I have just known of several cases where female SEEs would pursue relationships with LSI guys and usually it would not work, or they'd be "friends with benefits" for a while.
Not exactly sure what draws SEEs to LSIs, but there are certain instances when Supervision can actually seem appealing (from afar), and this seems to be another case.

I've not heard of ILI men being less common.

No "official" Socionics source admits that there is actually an uneven distribution of types, they all assume the distribution is even.
But just look around you and type the people you meet, and it should become apparent that certain types are indeed more or less common.

[Resonare]

I have just known of several cases where female SEEs would pursue relationships with LSI guys and usually it would not work, or they'd be "friends with benefits" for a while.
Not exactly sure what draws SEEs to LSIs, but there are certain instances when Supervision can actually seem appealing (from afar), and this seems to be another case.

It's actually the reverse. I know of LSI guys in pick-up that learnt game in order to pursue SEE type of women, using the type of game where you show initial interest, approach (sometimes), then pull back and let her do the rest of the chasing, I think you've been noticing the last part. It's sad, but SEE are considered easy lays, smash and dump, fuck-buddies etc in pick-up because they will chase you after you dangle some good bait in front of them . There's some SEE-wanting from types that theoretically shouldn't want to be anywhere near them even in this forum. Ni-game is way too easy to imitate compared to Se-game, where an IEI like yourself would almost certainly catch them out in one of your Se willpower tests. The lack of ILIs actually approaching SEEs doesn't make things better either.

No "official" Socionics source admits that there is actually an uneven distribution of types, they all assume the distribution is even.
But just look around you and type the people you meet, and it should become apparent that certain types are indeed more or less common.

Your type and the people you attract because of it might be skewing your perception.

[Olimpia]

It's actually the reverse. I know of LSI guys in pick-up that learnt game in order to pursue SEE type of women, using the type of game where you show initial interest, approach (sometimes), then pull back and let her do the rest of the chasing, I think you've been noticing the last part. It's sad, but SEE are considered easy lays, smash and dump, fuck-buddies etc in pick-up because they will chase you after you dangle some good bait in front of them . There's some SEE-wanting from types that theoretically shouldn't want to be anywhere near them even in this forum. Ni-game is way too easy to imitate compared to Se-game, where an IEI like yourself would almost certainly catch them out in one of your Se willpower tests. The lack of ILIs actually approaching SEEs doesn't make things better either.

The link does not work.

I find PUA seems to primarily train guys who are not ego to act more like an Aggressor. It seems like their most high-paying customers are LIEs.
But sure, LSI guys can play the "fake Victim game", ESIs too. No wonder why they are the best PUA artists. They can be Aggressor and (fake) Victim with their Ni HA.

Your type and the people you attract because of it might be skewing your perception.

To an extent, yes. However, if that were the only factor determining which types I come across, I would not have trouble meeting ego types IRL.
Finding them online is much easier in comparison, but still not as easy as finding other types. It is really easy to find EIIs and LIIs online.

[Resonare]

The link does not work.

I find PUA seems to primarily train guys who are not ego to act more like an Aggressor. It seems like their most high-paying customers are LIEs.
But sure, LSI guys can play the "fake Victim game", ESIs too. No wonder why they are the best PUA artists. They can be Aggressor and (fake) Victim with their Ni HA.



To an extent, yes. However, if that were the only factor determining which types I come across, I would not have trouble meeting ego types IRL.
Finding them online is much easier in comparison, but still not as easy as finding other types. It is really easy to find EIIs and LIIs online.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...act-ESFp-women

There's more than enough content online to be successful imo, the guys that pay for coaching probably need someone there to get them to approach. The more extroverted you are the better, but posting about the types I've seen in game and how natural they are is derailing the thread

I'd be interested in seeing a distribution of the types, but until then I'll just assume they're about even.

[End]

I find PUA seems to primarily train guys who are not ego to act more like an Aggressor. It seems like their most high-paying customers are LIEs.
But sure, LSI guys can play the "fake Victim game", ESIs too. No wonder why they are the best PUA artists. They can be Aggressor and (fake) Victim with their Ni HA.

The PUA community assumes that all women want an male to "just get it" and put them in their place, beneath them in bed and in the kitchen when not in the bedroom. Granted, several studies do back this claim, but that's not a universal case. The real problem between men and women in the modern world isn't the questioning of traditional sexual roles and whatnot, it's government legislation. As the law currently stands, women are pure angelic goddesses who can do no wrong, and men are evil demon rapists who should bend over backwards to make sure the woman absolutely consents to her deplorable rape by the manbeast who currently desires to fuck her and if she ever changes her mind even for an instant he deserves to be thrown in jail and put on the sex offender registry!

The latter approach to sex naturally kills the mood 100 percent of the time so really, they've just about banned men from being masculine around women. By extension that bans women being feminine around men. And thus, the current horrid situation of sexuality in the West. Everything is inverted! No wonder everyone's miserable and/or nihilistic in their approach to romance. The law is trying to compel us all to act in a manner that opposes our very nature!

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...act-ESFp-women

There's more than enough content online to be successful imo, the guys that pay for coaching probably need someone there to get them to approach. The more extroverted you are the better, but posting about the types I've seen in game and how natural they are is derailing the thread

I'd be interested in seeing a distribution of the types, but until then I'll just assume they're about even.

They aren't even between the sexes. It's not a radical difference but men are more likely to have a "Thinking" attribute in the ego block and women are more likely to have a "feeling" attribute in the ego block but the likelihood isn't major. It's like a 60/40 chance at worst. There is a safe bet yeah, but the bet isn't so safe that you should just always put the money on black because that's so much more likely to hit that you'd be dumb to bet on red if ya catch my meaning.

[Resonare]

The PUA community assumes that all women want an male to "just get it" and put them in their place, beneath them in bed and in the kitchen when not in the bedroom. Granted, several studies do back this claim, but that's not a universal case. The real problem between men and women in the modern world isn't the questioning of traditional sexual roles and whatnot, it's government legislation. As the law currently stands, women are pure angelic goddesses who can do no wrong, and men are evil demon rapists who should bend over backwards to make sure the woman absolutely consents to her deplorable rape by the manbeast who currently desires to fuck her and if she ever changes her mind even for an instant he deserves to be thrown in jail and put on the sex offender registry!

The latter approach to sex naturally kills the mood 100 percent of the time so really, they've just about banned men from being masculine around women. By extension that bans women being feminine around men. And thus, the current horrid situation of sexuality in the West. Everything is inverted! No wonder everyone's miserable and/or nihilistic in their approach to romance. The law is trying to compel us all to act in a manner that opposes our very nature!

That depends on which PUAs you learn from. The best don't teach you how to pick-up women, they teach you how to figure out how you should pick-up women. Outside of just obvious basics that people still get wrong and wonder why they failed e.g. don't approach from behind (duh), the rest is trying and failing until you succeed. And PUA/Game doesn't assume that women want men, it assumes that women want a man who at least has the courage to overcome his fears and go after what he wants. It's nice that some men aren't scared of approaching women and that's good for them, but she's still wondering if this guy would face his darkest fears to protect her and their offspring because that's a fundamental instinct of women. If they got together and had a baby and giant wasps flew into the house through an open window, she's still wondering whether or not this man has the courage to overcome his fear of wasps in order to save their child. If you are too scared lack the courage to even approach her then what does that say?

I generally agree with you about the laws, they are stupid.

They aren't even between the sexes. It's not a radical difference but men are more likely to have a "Thinking" attribute in the ego block and women are more likely to have a "feeling" attribute in the ego block but the likelihood isn't major. It's like a 60/40 chance at worst. There is a safe bet yeah, but the bet isn't so safe that you should just always put the money on black because that's so much more likely to hit that you'd be dumb to bet on red if ya catch my meaning.

Ok, that one I have actually heard of before but as you said it's not that major.

[End]

If they got together and had a baby and giant wasps flew into the house through an open window, she's still wondering whether or not this man has the courage to overcome his fear of wasps in order to save their child. If you are too scared lack the courage to even approach her then what does that say?

The author Jack Donovan believes something similar to that. He postulates that every culture around the world, every single one, expects 4 things out its men and that women also expect those 4 things as well. They are looking for Courage, Honor, Strength, and Mastery among males. In an interview he was even asked about PUA and said that you could probably substitute those "tactical virtues" for game and your success rate with women would be similar.

[Joy]

Age gaps are always going to be common for evolutionary reasons. Men accrue resources over time and women, in the end, desire a big fat pile of resources so that they can be sure that any and all kids they happen to bear are taken care of along with themselves.

Oh, I read that the opposite way (SEEs going for younger ILIs)

[End]

Oh, I read that the opposite way (SEEs going for younger ILIs)

An older SEE going after a younger ILI will likely be successful, but don't knock off biology. Women in general go for older men, and an SEE is very well aware of the value of their youth. So an older ILI with potential will not easily slip past their radar. Hell, ILI's tend to not slip past any woman's radar. Socionics experts agree that lead male types (ILI and IEI) are most likely to be in a scenario of running away from a gaggle of females intent on making him their own personal husband.

The reason is quite simple. Having at the very top of the Ego block means you basically project an aura of inner peace. That's something they really, really want. Girls have very strong feelings, feelings that are well moderated in the presence of . We can reassure you of the future, calm your tits, and tell you all how it will all unfold with great accuracy. Now after that we are getting rather horny, can you... take care of it? We are victim types after all, our dream is to make the girl love us so much that she violates norms and jumps our bones aggressively . This is why we seek types, they're more than happy to make nice with us in that exchange. Duals draw each other towards themselves after all .

[Joy]

An older SEE going after a younger ILI will likely be successful, but don't knock off biology. Women in general go for older men, and an SEE is very well aware of the value of their youth. So an older ILI with potential will not easily slip past their radar. Hell, ILI's tend to not slip past any woman's radar. Socionics experts agree that lead male types (ILI and IEI) are most likely to be in a scenario of running away from a gaggle of females intent on making him their own personal husband.

The reason is quite simple. Having at the very top of the Ego block means you basically project an aura of inner peace. That's something they really, really want. Girls have very strong feelings, feelings that are well moderated in the presence of . We can reassure you of the future, calm your tits, and tell you all how it will all unfold with great accuracy. Now after that we are getting rather horny, can you... take care of it? We are victim types after all, our dream is to make the girl love us so much that she violates norms and jumps our bones aggressively . This is why we seek types, they're more than happy to make nice with us in that exchange. Duals draw each other towards themselves after all .

Yeah? You find that you're being hunted down by a gaggle of females? And the SEEs don't stop talking to you when you say stuff like "Girls have very strong feelings"? Huh. Well, sounds like you're living the life. Have fun.

[Joy]

Now, if you would have said, "SEEs have very strong feelings, feelings that are well moderated in the presence of Ni," that would have been fine. And true. But making it about gender is offensive.

[Alstroemeria]

Yeah? You find that you're being hunted down by a gaggle of females? And the SEEs don't stop talking to you when you say stuff like "Girls have very strong feelings"? Huh. Well, sounds like you're living the life. Have fun.

As a frequent lurker, I can at least say that it's his style to post in a dramatic and hyperbolic manner, and to readily stereotype groups of people. I mostly ignore his posts because I do not think them truly reflective of ILIs, but to each his own.

[End]

Now, if you would have said, "SEEs have very strong feelings, feelings that are well moderated in the presence of Ni," that would have been fine. And true. But making it about gender is offensive.

And thus we have another problem with the modern world and the West in particular coming up. People are way, way too quick to take offense to just about anything. Everyone's walking on eggshells thanks to PC bullshit that, ultimately, seeks to destroy the entirety of Western Civilization. I'm not joking, PC carried to its logical conclusion is the demand to end Western Civilization as a thing that exists. I can't think of a culture that is more tolerant and welcoming of minorities, foreigners, and out-groups than the West is. So anyone who stands with the crowd that seeks its destruction is an idiot at best and a malicious misanthrope at worst.

Stereotypes exist for reasons. I may not like it, you may not like it, but they persist because in the end there is a grain of truth in them. The grain gets grossly exaggerated to the point of it not "really" being true but it's true enough to stick. Accepting these things and moving on is how you change things for the better if you are in a maligned group and/or have negative stereotypes attached to you.

Stereotypes also exist because, ultimately, it's really, really hard to be "sensitive" to all 7 billion+ people on the planet. In fact it's impossible. Studies have shown that the number of individuals a person can reliably keep track of in any meaningful way is around 150. Humans in general can only conceive of about 150 individuals in that meaningful, nuanced, sensitive way that everyone wishes they would be conceived of as. Just one problem, your average town/city has way more than 150 people in it. Ergo, just to even function in that environment you'll need to start making blanket categorizations (i.e. stereotypes). Don't hate me or anyone else, hate evolution. It all boils down to the fact that we're all a bunch of evil tribal hairless monkeys. Once one accepts that notion the world makes much more sense. Idealism is sadly for the ignorant.

Here's a good article on the subject/problem I brought up: http://www.cracked.com/article_14990...keysphere.html

[Adam Strange]

Now, if you would have said, "SEEs have very strong feelings, feelings that are well moderated in the presence of Ni," that would have been fine. And true. But making it about gender is offensive.

This is something that I didn't know. However, it does explain why a male SEE musician whom I know is happily married to a female IEI therapist.

The SEE does complain, though, that he's not getting enough affection from the IEI (even though he is an Aggressor and she a Victim). It may be that IEI's are more Victim than ILI's. As FDG once said, IEI's tend to be +infinity in this department, and my own experience corroborates this.

[Joy]

This is something that I didn't know. However, it does explain why a male SEE musician whom I know is happily married to a female IEI therapist.

The SEE does complain, though, that he's not getting enough affection from the IEI (even though he is an Aggressor and she a Victim). It may be that IEI's are more Victim than ILI's. As FDG once said, IEI's tend to be +infinity in this department, and my own experience corroborates this.

That could also be something like sx incompatibility.

[Joy]

*insert a crapton of Ti here*

It's got nothing to do with being politically correct. I'm done with this conversation.

[Resonare]

The author Jack Donovan believes something similar to that. He postulates that every culture around the world, every single one, expects 4 things out its men and that women also expect those 4 things as well. They are looking for Courage, Honor, Strength, and Mastery among males. In an interview he was even asked about PUA and said that you could probably substitute those "tactical virtues" for game and your success rate with women would be similar.

He's probably right. The thing about true game is that getting better with women is actually a byproduct, the main goal is to be the best you possible and strength and mastery come along with that.

An older SEE going after a younger ILI will likely be successful, but don't knock off biology. Women in general go for older men, and an SEE is very well aware of the value of their youth. So an older ILI with potential will not easily slip past their radar. Hell, ILI's tend to not slip past any woman's radar. Socionics experts agree that lead male types (ILI and IEI) are most likely to be in a scenario of running away from a gaggle of females intent on making him their own personal husband.

The reason is quite simple. Having at the very top of the Ego block means you basically project an aura of inner peace. That's something they really, really want. Girls have very strong feelings, feelings that are well moderated in the presence of . We can reassure you of the future, calm your tits, and tell you all how it will all unfold with great accuracy. Now after that we are getting rather horny, can you... take care of it? We are victim types after all, our dream is to make the girl love us so much that she violates norms and jumps our bones aggressively . This is why we seek types, they're more than happy to make nice with us in that exchange. Duals draw each other towards themselves after all .

Like @Joy said, the last part only really applies to ESxps, but you're right in that they are drawn to the inner peace/confidence of INxps. MBTI managed to get this one right in stating that INTJs are the most self-confident type. Most would think that honor would go to ESxps but once you get to know them it becomes really obvious how they have built up internal problems because of their weak but valued Ni. They can't really introspect (at all) and play off internal issues, so their internal state is typically a mess despite their confident outer appearance. It's a shame that a lot of descriptions totally fail to recognize this, even victim-aggressor (that is thrown around way too much btw) focuses too much on "Se must subjugate and conquer Ni", "Victim must be dominated" blah blah blah , (btw I blame you Beta NFs for this ). Rarely is the fact that ESxps fear being alone the most out of all the types ever actually mentioned in why they so aggressively pursue partners.

As a frequent lurker, I can at least say that it's his style to post in a dramatic and hyperbolic manner, and to readily stereotype groups of people. I mostly ignore his posts because I do not think them truly reflective of ILIs, but to each his own.

I enjoy his posts, someone call the doctor!

[End]

He's probably right. The thing about true game is that getting better with women is actually a byproduct, the main goal is to be the best you possible and strength and mastery come along with that.

Indeed, we ought all aim to present the best possible us we can. Self-Improvement is always a good goal and nobody should ever see themselves as a "victim" as it were. Make the master acknowledge you as an equal!

Rarely is the fact that ESxps fear being alone the most out of all the types ever actually mentioned in why they so aggressively pursue partners.

That actually explains the duality relationships. The one who most fears being alone would, logically, seek out someone with the same fear. That lonely looking chap sitting in the corner is just oozing some loneliness, I bet he/she'd be ecstatic if I talked them up a bit! Social activity!

Too bad that the nuance is hard to nail down quadra wise. Thankfully such interactions are all "positive" in a way, though not as ideal as duality. I may seek out an SEE, but an SLE girl is a girl I don't mind settling for. Like @Adam Strange says, the psuedo-dual can still be a happy place and while you might complain it ain't a deal-breaker in the end. You're still happy, just not as happy as you may wish for in your wildest dreams. I'm content to be happy, aiming to max it out will likely lead to purity spirals and other such negative outcomes so if and when I get a nice little island of happiness I'll just take it .

[Chae]

The has a lifestyle in mind yet doesn't know how to really fund it. The knows how to fund damn near any swank lifestyle on way less than you'd think in a much easier to achieve basis than the "conventional" wisdom would say is possible but lacks the impetus to do anything except wait and see how events turn out. Basically, they bide their time and don't commit to a plan (that has a 9 out of 10 chance of going just as planned, we are very thorough in our plotting and already have a plan B and C ready to go if A gets fucked) unless someone is pushing them to do so. This is why they like each other so much, they wanna buy what the other is selling. The is pushing, and all is waiting for is to be pushed .

Mhm, good and productive point.

[Chae]

Another point that seems important in this dyad.

The instinctual compatibility - SEE types are often Sx/So. The ILI should be Sp/Sx, then, which is often the case. So that works out.


Case in point: My personal experience is confusing because I deviate from this standard. My stacking is syn-flow, it contradicts the classic ILI attitude of being "against" that the anarchy-loving SEE Sx/So so loves. I can't enter a total rejection state that triggers aggression from SeFi. I am Sx-level aggressive myself, but not in the right way to attract a mate, being weak in resolute Se conquest matters. I deliberate too much in a mad passive state (Ni) but I know what I want and need (Sx+Sp). This ambivalence is confusing to me and SEEs alike I figure it will take more self-improving on my side until I can embrace the pseudo-aggressor role, especially through enneagram 8 integration and Te development. Gotta work with what is already there.

Now, Sx/Sp complements So/Sx. The people that wanted to enter romantic relationships with me so far were NFs, the classic So/Sx types. They were looking for ST authority that I had trouble providing, see reasoning above The only SEE-Se that I made actual romantic plans for the future with was an Sp/So type. Of course, this didn't work out on the long run. Sp is my territory as it's my second instinct, it functions smoothly and anticipates Sp-lastness. After two years, SEE began to bore me to death with an obsessive fitness agenda. No Sx present to cause a spark, SEE's blind spot was undeveloped, so was mine. SEE wasn't behaving cutely either, something that I really like about So/Sx people as they lack the heavy groundedness.

Recap: my internal conflicts around being Sx dominant have caused mayhem within the boundaries of wrong opportunities, including failed duality and NF romantic interests.

[Joy]

Brb, rearranging stacking to date @Chae

[Chae]

Brb, rearranging stacking to date @Chae

Huuu~ <3 Cute as always hihi

[Resonare]

Indeed, we ought all aim to present the best possible us we can. Self-Improvement is always a good goal and nobody should ever see themselves as a "victim" as it were. Make the master acknowledge you as an equal!

That actually explains the duality relationships. The one who most fears being alone would, logically, seek out someone with the same fear. That lonely looking chap sitting in the corner is just oozing some loneliness, I bet he/she'd be ecstatic if I talked them up a bit! Social activity!

Too bad that the nuance is hard to nail down quadra wise. Thankfully such interactions are all "positive" in a way, though not as ideal as duality. I may seek out an SEE, but an SLE girl is a girl I don't mind settling for. Like @Adam Strange says, the psuedo-dual can still be a happy place and while you might complain it ain't a deal-breaker in the end. You're still happy, just not as happy as you may wish for in your wildest dreams. I'm content to be happy, aiming to max it out will likely lead to purity spirals and other such negative outcomes so if and when I get a nice little island of happiness I'll just take it .

INxps don't typically fear being alone but you guys do often find yourselves in that situation, especially ILIs. Your duals enter here by being able to drag you back into the world, but what attracts them to you in the first place is Ni. In the case of the dyad we're talking about, SEEs can have several social faces because of their high functioning Fe which gives them a need to force themselves to engage in the upbeat, emotional atmospheres created by the Fe-valuing quadras, though they don't really mind engaging in Beta so much. When they come across their Fe-polr dual who not only despises that atmosphere but also has no fear being outcasted because of the greater significance they place on their inner state over the world around, the SEE finds themselves drawn in and wanting to snatch a piece of it for themselves. I forgot where (wikisocion?) but there was a description somewhere that highlighted this aspect of Ni-Se dual-seeking.

[End]

INxps don't typically fear being alone but you guys do often find yourselves in that situation, especially ILIs. Your duals enter here by being able to drag you back into the world, but what attracts them to you in the first place is Ni. In the case of the dyad we're talking about, SEEs can have several social faces because of their high functioning Fe which gives them a need to force themselves to engage in the upbeat, emotional atmospheres created by the Fe-valuing quadras, though they don't really mind engaging in Beta so much. When they come across their Fe-polr dual who not only despises that atmosphere but also has no fear being outcasted because of the greater significance they place on their inner state over the world around, the SEE finds themselves drawn in and wanting to snatch a piece of it for themselves. I forgot where (wikisocion?) but there was a description somewhere that highlighted this aspect of Ni-Se dual-seeking.

I agree with your assessment. I never really gave two shits what people thought of me, I only cared that I was right. One of my favorite philosophers, an IEI named Soren Kirkegaard, mentioned with disdain how most others in that field would be perfectly happy for God to give them their "system", with the caveat that they were wrong. I'd rather be right, everything else be damned.

As to the value of the inner state, well, I'd say we have a jealousy of their outer state. The SEE gets along with everyone it seems, it'd be nice if I could do that too. Yeah, I may not like most people but getting along with them in a real sense would be nice. I guess they have an opposite jealousy. He/She doesn't need anyone else to like them to be happy. Hell, most people won't go near em' and more than a few hate them yet there they are, unphased by it all. Must be nice... and the feedback loop begins. One seeks out the other.

Jung had a point, we seek out mates in such a way that we try to compensate for our weaknesses. It is no accident that the introvert seeks out the extrovert and vice-versa. We are not fully complete on our own, we need someone else to make us whole. Problem is that that statement isn't true 100 percent of the time. One of my teachers in college pointed out that the existence of monks and nuns were a way to more comfortably acknowledge and deal with the fact that some people were just asexual and/or celibate. Ya needed to have cultural ways to deal with those complex questions for the masses to just keep calm and carry on.

[Pallas]

Why did you say SEE has high functioning Fe? SEE is ESFp which has Fi and not Fe.

[Aylen]

Why did you say SEE has high functioning Fe? SEE is ESFp which has Fi and not Fe.

SEE has 4d Fe since it is their demonstrative function. I didn't bookmark the link but someone probably has it handy. @Myst

[Pallas]

Well, it's an Id function. I guess you could call that "high functioning" if you put some qualifiers on it.

[Aylen]

Well, it's an Id function. I guess you could call that "high functioning" if you put some qualifiers on it.

Right, it isn't a "valued" function.

[Alstroemeria]

Perhaps just to add my insights as a ILI female still in university...

SEEs can be intellectual and/or successful. I would not say that ILIs have an inherent advantage over their dual in that regard, since SEEs have immense willpower and are able to achieve just about anything they put their minds to. However, the key is that they should have a concrete goal they are working towards. These SEEs usually have some sort of guidance from their surroundings and a sense of direction of where their life should lead to. My SEE s/o is an estimated summa cum laude, a SEE I know is part of the National Youth Choir and another has a black belt in Judo.

How can a ILI attract these kind of SEEs then? The best way would be to simply have them take note of your existence. My SEE friends and S/O all admitted that they did not even know I existed before I was directly introduced to them, either by mutual friends or by circumstances. And this was even when I have been in their vicinity for months. Do this by joining social activities that interest you. It is easier to meet SEEs if it is some kind of sensoric activity, like martial arts or sports. All the SEEs I know have some sort of sensoric past-time they use to de-stress. The SEEs will do the rest once you have had conversations that show a little of your character.

I can't speak for all ILIs as to how to show your character, but I have received feedback from SEEs of both genders that they identified me as an interesting person because I simply spoke what was on my mind without fear, and could be obliviously blunt. SEEs like awkward people and find it easier to be themselves around such people, because they internally can also feel socially awkward. Their social awkwardness manifests in an inability to regulate the pressure they place on another person's boundaries. Many SEEs I know tend to end up 'tiptoeing' around people because they fear coming on too strong if they happen to find the person interesting, so meeting an equally awkward, albeit in a different way, ILI puts them at ease.

As for romantic interest, for SEEs physical attraction is a prerequisite if they are to gain such interest. However, their tastes can be unconventional. I've found that they tend to like people who dress in dark colours and/or adopt minimalistic and practical fashion. Hygiene is a must, and a toned body is a great bonus. Not too much muscles, just enough to show you exercise somewhat. For females, natural makeup is best. Additionally, competence in the intellectual sphere is particularly attractive to SEEs. Specifically, they are interested in people who are able to make practical plans and direct others to execute these plans.

Unfortunately, many SEEs tend to already be in relationships when young. SEEs are the sort to take a trial and error approach to their relationships, and in their younger years they do gravitate towards other EXFX. This arises from a lack of options more than anything else, since Ni types are just not noticeable. So they simply take what they can get, because SEEs want to love and be loved at a degree greater than most other types. Talking to SEEs of both genders, I found that they have at best a vague idea of the kind of person they would like to be with. Given their adaptable personality, they can just about forcefit any type to fit their vague ideal and hence can even date people from the Alpha quadra. But, they are drawn towards ILIs and will fixate on ILIs if they happen to know a desirable one, even if they do not consciously know why.

Ultimately, the biggest problem with ILI-SEE duality is still visibility. The visible ILI gets locked down rather quickly by SEE, but the invisible ILI simply ends up blending with the wall, doomed to never being noticed by the SEE. I made a conscious choice to be visible by joining many different activities and consequently had many Se types and even the occasional alpha SF come after me, but I ultimately chose my SEE s/o. Similarly, a ILI male I am friends with who was president of his club, was constantly asked out by other females in subtle ways. He eventually went into a relationship with a highly ambitious SEE, who is respected due to her many accomplishments in multiple areas. The ILIs I know all have a mysterious and magnetic quality to them, which makes them attractive to a broad spectrum of types if they take care of their appearance and enough people know of their existence. The SEE will approach regardless of the presence or absence of competition, as long as the ILI is visible.

[Chae]

@Alstroemeria Your input is very relevant, awesome. If you're up for writing another piece, what are your insights concerning the established SEE/ILI relationship's dynamic[s] in general? The OP also hinted at Aggressor-Victim interplay and we haven't gathered much tangible info about that so far, care to elaborate on what `aggressor-victim´ means to you in particular?

[Alstroemeria]

@Alstroemeria Your input is very relevant, awesome. If you're up for writing another piece, what are your insights concerning the established SEE/ILI relationship's dynamic[s] in general? The OP also hinted at Aggressor-Victim interplay and we haven't gathered much tangible info about that so far, care to elaborate on what `aggressor-victim´ means to you in particular?

Hi @Chae, glad to oblige! Also, I really like your insights and the technical approach you take. It would be great if you could post more on SEE-ILI duality too.

Based on my own experiences, the SEE-ILI duality is above all else, comfortable and respectful. Additionally, it tends to be focused on helping each other achieve economic prosperity/job satisfaction. Conflicts can be intense (for instance, my SEE s/o and I have shouted at each other while arguing), but they are always ultimately resolved within the span of a few hours. SEEs do not like leaving conflicts unresolved.

In the context of the aggressor-victim dynamic, I think it manifests itself most obviously when a couple is not exclusive,because the SEE tends to do most of the work in establishing a relationship. The SEEs I know rarely ask out people (people tend to ask them out instead), but when they find a person worth the effort,it will be immensely difficult to shake them off. They are very selective as they are incredibly loyal to their romantic choice, even if that loyalty may not be well deserved. I've known a SEE female who pined for a ILI male for years, while going out on dates with males of other types. No matter who came her way, her goal was always to close the distance between her and the ILI, even if it took years because the ILI responded at the rate of a turtle. My SEE s/o was rejected six times by me in a span of a year while staying my friend ,and by then even my friends felt sorry for him and asked me why I was being unnecessarily cruel. I was not, but I was battling with depression at that time and was not certain of his commitment given my mental illness. He certainly did prove me wrong though, since I eventually felt secure enough to tell him about it and show him the hospital where I underwent psychiatric treatment. He actually took the effort to read up on depression and how to best give support because he suspected as much,which touched me greatly. ILI can feel rather flawed internally,thus they will need a period of time to assess if a person will be willing to accept them for who they are. In addition,they can also be rather cold and/or distant to their prospects. SEE will need to be emotionally strong and close the distance if they are to obtain the elusive ILI.

(Random tip for any ILI reading - these SEEs may seem to be introverts in your presence. They're probably just nervous and trying to adapt to you. I've witnessed outgoing popular SEEs be reduced to one-liners due to self consciousness about the words they speak or type to the ILI of their choice. I mistyped my SEE s/o as ESI initially because he was so quiet, guarded and seemed hesitant to touch me. Turned out to be him desperately wishing he would not mess up when we interacted)

Once a relationship has been established, the aggressor-victim dynamic becomes more subtle. One way it manifests is in the ILI needing occasional reassurance that the SEE still loves and prioritises them. ILIs can feel doubt about the strength of the relationship for many reasons (e.g the SEE unconsciously flirts a lot) ,therefore the SEE acts as the rock of the relationship by reassuring the ILI. If ILIs do not obtain their desired reassurance, they will start rebuilding the walls that the SEEs painstakingly took down. Therefore,the ILI-SEE duality in an established relationship can be best analogised to the repeated building and taking down of the ILI's walls. The SEE never gets bored as a consequence, and the ILI feels loved and accepted.

SEEs are also very possessive, and they do not ignore any mention of potential competition. My SEE s/o likes to jokingly refer to me as his property that no one else can touch whenever he feels a threat. In addition, my ILI friend tries to avoid mentioning his close female friends out of respect for his SEE girlfriend, who I'm pretty sure will rip me to pieces if she knew how close I am to him. ( jk, pretty sure she'll just tell him to talk to me less )

Despite their adaptable personality, SEEs have very high standards and many demands. Of course, given that the vast majority of SEE-ILI dualities start out by the SEE choosing their target ILI, the ILI likely already inherently fulfils many of these requirements and demands. Nevertheless,I've found that SEEs can be rather pushy if the ILI falls short or becomes lazy, because SEEs themselves always try their best. For instance,my SEE s/o insists that I keep exercising because it is good for my mental health and keeps me fit. I was already exercising regularly even before meeting him, and he himself exercises more than me. On the days where I may have a minor depressive episode and am supposed to exercise but am unable to do so , my SEE s/o will give me a pep talk and pull me out of bed while reminding me of the benefits of exercise and the promise I made to keep fit. I always feel better after exercising so it does work. As an addendum, the SEE may start out with unreasonable or unrealistic standards,especially if they are inexperienced or had unhealthy relationships previously. Still, the SEE and ILI can communicate to agree on realistic goals. The SEE always has goals they are working towards, and they expect the same of their partner.

SEEs can also be the sort to act for their s/o to ensure their s/o's emotional well-being, regardless of what their s/o wants. Victim types are probably the only people who allow such behaviour because they may not have a concrete idea of what they want, and may sometimes act comtradictorily.

The SEE will take care of all the ILI's physical needs. The SEEs I know show their affection through physical deeds. For instance, my SEE s/o buys me dinner when I get too busy, and chocolate when I have my period. He does this even when I would have been fine with skipping meals and being in pain throughout the period cramps. Therefore, in public the ILI can appear to be particularly dominant, since the SEE does many physical acts to express their affection to the ILI. In addition, any plans that the ILI wishes to execute, the SEE will likely carry out on the ILI's behalf. Thus, it may look like the ILI is giving orders to an incredibly compliant SEE. (I've had EIE and SLE males tell my SEE s/o out of 'kindness' that he is 'hen-pecked' because he is willing to do so much for me and should therefore stop. They were told to mind their own business ) As the pseudo-aggressor, the ILI may look to be the one in control. Nevertheless, the SEE is actually the one running the show when it comes to the relationship. The SEE controls the level of affection, as well as the direction of the relationship.

Any corroboration and/or stories by other ILIs and SEEs on this duality would be interesting!

[Myst]

SEE has 4d Fe since it is their demonstrative function. I didn't bookmark the link but someone probably has it handy. @Myst

About function positions? http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Function

[Joy]

The thing about how SEE/ILI duality is about the ILI constantly building walls and the SEE constantly working to bring them down is interesting.

This is way better than the info in the long duality description (Strati?) that said that the basis of SEE/ILI duality is spouse stealing and needing to have some giant obstacle to overcome.

[Adam Strange]

The thing about how SEE/ILI duality is about the ILI constantly building walls and the SEE constantly working to bring them down is interesting.

This is way better than the info in the long duality description (Strati?) that said that the basis of SEE/ILI duality is spouse stealing and needing to have some giant obstacle to overcome.

This is a great illustration of the way duality can be described differently, when viewed from a standpoint either within or without that duality.

[Alstroemeria]

I think SEE-ILI duality can best be described through these comics:

[Joy]

My SEE s/o was rejected six times by me in a span of a year while staying my friend

Okay, I need to know more about this specific aspect of SEE/ILI duality (and just Se/Ni dynamics in general). I keep reading about it, but I'm not sure I totally get how it typically works on the SEE's end.

When someone rejects the SEE, do they think, "That's okay. I'll just try again later. No matter what, I'm going to win this person over!" and then just give it a rest for a bit until they think the time is right to try again?

Or is it that the SEE accepts the rejection and thinks, "No worries, being friends is great, too!" and continues on with the friendship only to find that their romantic interest in the person appears again at a later time (and/or they think something might have changed on the ILIs end), at which point they once again express interest?

Any and all input from anyone who's actually seen/experienced this would be amazing.

[Alstroemeria]

Okay, I need to know more about this specific aspect of SEE/ILI duality (and just Se/Ni dynamics in general). I keep reading about it, but I'm not sure I totally get how it typically works on the SEE's end.

When someone rejects the SEE, do they think, "That's okay. I'll just try again later. No matter what, I'm going to win this person over!" and then just give it a rest for a bit until they think the time is right to try again?

Or is it that the SEE accepts the rejection and thinks, "No worries, being friends is great, too!" and continues on with the friendship only to find that their romantic interest in the person appears again at a later time (and/or they think something might have changed on the ILIs end), at which point they once again express interest?

Any and all input from anyone who's actually seen/experienced this would be amazing.

The second version sounds more accurate. SEEs are after all dealing with Fe-POLRs, so generally they will not come on too strongly. From what I observe, SEEs gently poke the ILI to see if he/she responds differently. Maybe the ILI has become friendlier, or has become more open... In which case the SEE gives it another shot if they are still interested. SEEs are very persistent though, even a tiny bit of progress is enough to sustain their interest. SEEs usually have strategies to exhaust for their ILI of choice to close the distance, as SEE is a strategic type. In my opinion their problem comes more from restraining themselves from just using all of the possible methods at once, since they know it will overwhelm the ILI.

It is also entirely possible for the SEE to lose interest/give up completely if the ILI dawdles too much, and the SEE thinks that no further progress can be made. In my case, my SEE s/o actually did stop asking me out about 9 months in because he could not see any other way forward. I was the one to ask him for exclusivity because I realized I greatly missed having him around (the whole aspect of duality not being noticed until your dual is not around... when he "gave up" we started becoming more like casual friends), and I was lucky he hadn't found a new person to be interested in and therefore was still open to the idea of being with me. On hindsight if I was more in touch with my feelings and feeling less down about myself, this probably would not have happened. I cringe when I think about it.