Johammadeezus on Information Elements (thread split)

[Suz]

well, it's not really my own system, but I'd say you're probably LII

if you poast a video of yourself I could provide you with a more definite answer

oh interesting...

so here are the typings of myself in the different "schools" here:

(mainstream socionics - IEE)
Maritsionics - SEE
ChrisClearlyonics - LII

Interesting that Maritsa & ChrisClearly type me conflicting types. I take it there's a large polarity between their typology systems?

and @Chris Clearly, forget it, if I actually considered you a credible source I would have shown you a video but i dont.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

oh interesting...

so here are the typings of myself in the different "schools" here:

(mainstream socionics - IEE)
Maritsionics - SEE
ChrisClearlyonics - LII

Interesting that Maritsa & ChrisClearly type me conflicting types. I take it there's a large polarity between their typology systems?

Heh. They had me self-dualizing for a while (SEE & ILI).

[Olduvai]

(mainstream socionics - IEE)

you're not IEE

in his typology system

their typology systems

systems of rules and categories, hierarchies, comparisons of quantifiable properties, logical judgments

Analysis, law, hierarchy, dimension, classification, understanding, order, right, distance, system, structure, formal logics

certain fields of scientific knowledge: geometry, formal logic, scientific classifications and systematizations

System – regularity, hierarchy, organization, cause and effect relations, theory.

It's more that Ti-egos think in terms of systems, and so they might be more predisposed to understanding other designed systems because they're used to dealing with that way of understanding things. That is, they're used to thinking of things as a system, and so when they learn about new things they think of it in the same way, which works well for things which are indeed systems. I think that Ti-egos, to an extent, view the world like a system and the Ti-dominants might prefer to have some structure to their life in the sense that things happen in a more predictable way, because then they can predict it and work it into their personal system. But actually implementing it onto the world is a touch different. In my mind I'm imagining someone trying to implement a sequence of how things ought to be done (say, around the workplace) but that's probably too narrow in my thinking.

it's so obvious to me that you "think in terms of systems", I don't know how you can't see it

and @Chris Clearly, forget it, if I actually considered you a credible source I would have shown you a video but i dont.

don't worry, I know it's not your fault, you're just my supervisor

anyway, since you won't post a video of yourself, I'll post one of your identical:


here's more LII for you:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Videos-of-LII

Heh. They had me self-dualizing for a while (SEE & ILI).

I don't know where she got SEE from, you're clearly ILI

[Suz]

@Chris Clearly, honey, you can keep repeating "systems", "you're system-based", all you want but until you actually explain what you mean by that and how you see it in me, you're not going to be convincing.

Looking at your selections of LII videos, I am not convinced.

[Enters Laughing]

@Chris Clearly...LII?

[Olduvai]

@Chris Clearly, honey

well, at least you're nice

you can keep repeating "systems", "you're system-based", all you want but until you actually explain what you mean by that and how you see it in me, you're not going to be convincing.

you see socionics as "classification system for people", whereas I see it merely as "people"; that's the best I can do

Looking at your selections of LII videos, I am not convinced.

too bad, because they're all dead-on

Like i've said before, your overconfidence in your socionics is not helping your credibility.

it's only overconfidence if it's unwarranted; if you actually understood people you'd see that my confidence is fully justified and appropriate

It may may you feel self-important, but it doesn't mean you really know what you're talking about.

lol, it has nothing to do with me wanting to feel self-important, but you can think that if it'll make you feel better

@Chris Clearly...LII?

haha, not a chance

[Enters Laughing]

You do seem to enjoy pigeon-holing people in some systemic fashion, and are very confident that your view is the correct one. That doesn't seem natural for an IEE type for example.

[Enters Laughing]

he could in fact be IEE for all I care, I just don't like to see him using arguments against others that he should be using against himself.

[Suz]

he could in fact be IEE for all I care, I just don't like to see him using arguments against others that he should be using against himself.

I have a hard time seeing an IEE in someone who is so single-minded. However, I will admit that when I was a newb I also thought i knew socionics better than anyone else on the forum... you know how it is... (like teenagers with their parents).

[Kill4Me]

I see him as ISFp

[Suz]

oh interesting...

so here are the typings of myself in the different "schools" here:

(mainstream socionics - IEE)
Maritsionics - SEE
ChrisClearlyonics - LII

Interesting that Maritsa & ChrisClearly type me conflicting types. I take it there's a large polarity between their typology systems?

and @Chris Clearly, forget it, if I actually considered you a credible source I would have shown you a video but i dont.

One thing i will add to this is, I relate more to Maritsa's typing of me, than to CC's typing of me. Heck, I still wonder in the back of my mind whether Maritsa is correct. I could potentially see myself as SEE. One thing is for sure though, it's clear to me that of all the elements in socionics, I relate to the Fi element the most. Everything else is debatable. People could suggest I have Fi-HA or Fi-DS, and I wouldnt' disagree.

So, CC, if you are seeing a lot of Ti emanating from me, it could be that my demonstrative function is Ti. However, that would suggest that, since that is what you are appreciating about me, Ti is an element you value.

[Kill4Me]

"even a broken clock is right twice a day"

[Suz]

I see him as ISFp

I suspect a Te-POLR type as well... insistent against all evidence to the contrary.

[Olduvai]

That doesn't seem natural for an IEE type for example.

I have a hard time seeing an IEE in someone who is so single-minded.

lol, why?

and I see much more Ti than Fi.

where? I think my whole problem boils down to me not being able to give logical explanations:

you would make for a good cult leader

"let me tell you something but give no logical explanation for it, you only need to have faith in me that I'm RIGHT"

[Suz]

lol, why?

Why?? because one of the strengths of Ne is being able to consider multiple viewpoints.

where? I think my whole problem boils down to me not being able to give logical explanations:

lol this is Maritsa's "excuse" too. Is this what you say at work too, when you dont want to do something? I dont even see an effort on your part to explain, much less anything illogical in there. At least Maritsa tries.

However, being able to explain something is not type related. It doesn't need to be logically laid out to be an explanation, a good one even.

[Olduvai]

One thing i will add to this is, I relate more to Maritsa's typing of me, than to CC's typing of me. Heck, I still wonder in the back of my mind whether Maritsa is correct. I could potentially see myself as SEE.

lawl, you're just as bad as woof

One thing is for sure though, it's clear to me that of all the elements in socionics, I relate to the Fi element the most.

how?

So, CC, if you are seeing a lot of Ti emanating from me, it could be that my demonstrative function is Ti. However, that would suggest that, since that is what you are appreciating about me, Ti is an element you value.

but I thought you were IEE/SEE?

I suspect a Te-POLR type as well... insistent against all evidence to the contrary.

lol, you simply have no idea what the types look like

[Suz]

but I thought you were IEE/SEE?

I thought you were IEE... IEEs are supposed to be flexible.

lol, you simply have no idea what the types look like

oh... and you do, right? uhhuh...

[Olduvai]

Why?? because one of the strengths of Ne is being able to consider multiple viewpoints.

but there aren't multiple viewpoints in this case

Is this what you say at work too, when you dont want to do something? I dont even see an effort on your part to explain, much less anything illogical in there. At least Maritsa tries.

it's not that I don't want to explain, it's that I can't explain in a way that will make sense to you

[Suz]

you would make for a good cult leader

"let me tell you something but give no logical explanation for it, you only need to have faith in me that I'm RIGHT"

This is actually what Ti-valuers do. Ti is holding everyone to YOUR OWN system, instead of the ACTUAL system (which would be Te).

Ti = the framework within the individual's mind (an "internal framework", hence introverted)

Te = the framework out in the external world (hence an extraverted element)

[Suz]

it's not that I don't want to explain, it's that I can't explain in a way that will make sense to you

uhhuh... and you've reached into my mind to be able to know what will and won't make sense to me...

nah, it's just that you dont know what you're talking about. You just want to act like an "authority". You must be proud of your non-existent socionics skills for some reason. Maybe you've tried "implementing" your knowledge to manipulate people, and perhaps it worked, not because of socionics, but because of some manipulative strengths you might have.

[Olduvai]

I thought you were IEE... IEEs are supposed to be flexible.

I'm just wondering how you can be Ti-PoLR but also possibly be Ti-Demonstrative

oh... and you do, right? uhhuh...

sure do!
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ctures-of-SLEs
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...f-Duck-Calling
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Duck-Commander

[Suz]

This is actually what Ti-valuers do. Ti is holding everyone to YOUR OWN system, instead of the ACTUAL system (which would be Te).

Ti = the framework within the individual's mind (an "internal framework", hence introverted)

Te = the framework out in the external world (hence an extraverted element)

Let me explain this concept further even... (since you seem mystified at recognizing some evidence of logical thinking in the IEEs on this forum).

All types have an ability to think and express logically, even those with T-POLRs. Why?

The Ti-POLRs' hidden agenda is Te. The Te-POLR's hidden agenda is Ti. The hidden agenda is something one cares about deeply and works hard at their whole lives. They try to prove themselves at it. It may not come easily, and is a constant struggle, but is something that can improve over time, just because it's so important to that person and gets practiced and practiced out of a fear of embarrassment. So much so, that the HA is a function that one is, in a way, proud of (while deep down insecure about it). It's a fragile point in the psyche -- where criticism of it is taken as an insult. So, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the IEEs here display logical thinking.

I suspect that, ever since you learned about socionics, you latched on to this (fallacious) concept of IEEs not being able to think logically, and perhaps used it to explain away your mental laziness, your academic weakness, and as an excuse for not exerting your brain throughout your life. "Hah, i'm IEE, that's why I'm stupid! Don't expect much from me!" This is sadly not type related, my friend.

[Olduvai]

This is actually what Ti-valuers do. Ti is holding everyone to YOUR OWN system, instead of the ACTUAL system (which would be Te).

Ti = the framework within the individual's mind (an "internal framework", hence introverted)

Ti =

Ti	System, analysis, instruction, mathematics, structure, classification, register, parameter, regularity, law, synthesis, proof, understanding, right, duty, responsibilities

Logics of Relationships Ti

Dimension – more-less, long – short, parameter, distance, commensurability, comparison, standard.
Understanding – analysis, detail, synthesis, universality.
Order – leveling, classification, control, sequence, to range, strictness, register.
System – regularity, hierarchy, organization, cause and effect relations, theory.
Structure – positional relationship of objects, interrelations, construction, subordination, position, correlation, chart.
Formal logics – algorithm, distance, proof, “if – then”, law, instruction, informatics, cybernetics, mathematics, official relations, rights and duties, rules (including etiquette), programming, equality, justice, statistics, equation.

Te = the framework out in the external world (hence an extraverted element)

Te =

Te	Technology, function, action, deed, fact, knowledge, use, benefit, business, method, reason, instrument, tool, expediency, business team, effectiveness, price, movement, mechanism

Logic of Actions Te

Action – movement, activity, transfer, deed, achievement.
Knowledge – qualifications, method, skills, fact, erudition.
Work – business team, instrument, mechanism, process of production, technology, ability to work, functioning.
Reason – adequacy, profit, common sense, use, pragmatism, reasonable actions, rationality, rationalism, expediency, effectiveness.
Economics – enterprise, worth, ability to do with money, price.

You just want to act like an "authority"

again, not true, but you can think that if it'll make you feel better

[Suz]

I'm just wondering how you can be Ti-PoLR but also possibly be Ti-Demonstrative

You don't know the meaning of the word "possibilities"? I thought you call yourself an Ne-dom...

sure do!
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ctures-of-SLEs
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...f-Duck-Calling
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Duck-Commander

Oooh, look! I can do it too!

http://gallery.socionix.com/

[Olduvai]

I suspect that, ever since you learned about socionics, you latched on to this (fallacious) concept of IEEs not being able to think logically, and perhaps used it to explain away your mental laziness, your academic weakness, and as an excuse for not exerting your brain throughout your life. "Hah, i'm IEE, that's why I'm stupid! Don't expect much from me!"

1. this post is incredibly ironic
2. for someone who is supposed to be strong in Fi, you sure are mean
3. though I'd wager you don't think I'm deserving of pity,

From the point of view of the Supervisor, Supervisee seems to be endowed with great abilities, even talented, but also somehow deficient, "pathetic", and deserving of pity.

also,

These relations are characterized by the fact that the auditor, as a rule, is always dissatisfied with the actions of audited person. As soon as supervisee shows some initiative or expresses a thought, he may feel bombarded with corrections and criticisms by the supervisor or have them simply dismissed. At the same time, supervisee cannot counter these charges - supervisor suppresses him.

This is sadly not type related, my friend.

indeed, as you've proven that even LII can be stupid

[Suz]

Ti =





Te =





again, not true, but you can think that if it'll make you feel better

Well there, you are just cutting and pasting a whole lot of word associations. But do you know how those things actually manifest? Much less in each different Model A position? You can read those lists day in and day out, and come up with some image in your mind, but the whole challenge of socionics, as i've realized over the years, is to translate those word associations into a practically useful application. The image you come up with just from studying that kind of theory can be very very off.

[Suz]

indeed, as you've proven that even LII can be stupid

Weren't you impressed with my logics earlier?

I take it you are starting to realize you are not winning this debate. Sore loser huh...

[Olduvai]

You don't know the meaning of the word "possibilities"? I thought you call yourself an Ne-dom...

but if you're IEE then Ti-demonstrative isn't a possibility

Oooh, look! I can do it too!

http://gallery.socionix.com/

that gallery is a cesspool of misinformation

[Suz]

1. this post is incredibly ironic
2. for someone who is supposed to be strong in Fi, you sure are mean
3. though I'd wager you don't think I'm deserving of pity,

Being strong in Fi does not mean always being nice. It means I know exactly where to hit because I've successfully assessed your character.

[Olduvai]

Weren't you impressed with my logics earlier?

logic =/= intelligence

I take it you are starting to realize you are not winning this debate.

I've known since we started that I couldn't win, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong

also,

Supervisor can monitor every step the Supervisee takes, while Supervisee is powerless to resist this influence: all of his strong features "drown" in the appropriate function of the Supervisor.

[Olduvai]

Being strong in Fi does not mean always being nice. It means I know exactly where to hit because I've successfully assessed your character.

lol, you haven't assessed my character, you're just being a vindictive bitch

[Suz]

but if you're IEE then Ti-demonstrative isn't a possibility

Yep, i guess not

that gallery is a cesspool of misinformation

Uh-huh, because only your (mis) typings are correct.

my point being that just posting a slew of your own celebrity typings isn't a way to convince people that you know what you're doing.

[Suz]

lol, you haven't assessed my character, you're just being a vindictive bitch

oh yeah that's why it hurts so much... i believe you.

[Suz]

Supervisor can monitor every step the Supervisee takes, while Supervisee is powerless to resist this influence: all of his strong features "drown" in the appropriate function of the Supervisor.

You know this is really funny, because Maritsa used the SAME exact excuse to type me SEE (her supervisor).

lol

I guess i'm just EVERYONE's supervisor, aren't i... maybe i'm typeless... above all types... like God.

[Olduvai]

oh yeah that's why it hurts so much... i believe you.

lol, you're such a bitch

[Olduvai]

You know this is really funny, because Maritsa used the SAME exact excuse to type me SEE (her supervisor).

lol

another Maritsa comparison! keep em coming, I know they make it easier for you to write me off

[Enters Laughing]

you've proven that even LII can be stupid

lol, you haven't assessed my character, you're just being a vindictive bitch

lol, you're such a bitch

for someone who is supposed to be strong in Fi, you sure are mean

.

[Olduvai]

.

I know, I know... all I can say is "eye for an eye"

[Enters Laughing]

you're an IEI now?

[Olduvai]

you're an IEI now?

wut