Hell discussion (split from Delta Lounge)

[Absurd]

She just called you Ne polr, crazie rat. And you go talking about some silly Beta math.

[SyrupDeGem]

Yeah, I know what you mean. At least I can check everything, cause I have multiple versions of study Bibles in my house. The German translation I'm using for my personal Bible reading is the Elberfelder translation, quite close to the original Hebrew and Greek texts. But I'm planning to buy myself a Greek critical version of the New Testament.

Sure, I appreciate that and I have very little personal study to speak of. Infact I do not know a great deal of biblical text at all. What I have garnered has been mostly from a Sunday school I attended independantly of my parents as a child because I really wanted to understand where these children were going every Sunday that I would see walking past my house. I was fascinated by the idea of religion as it was largely unavailable to me during my primary education... though oddly I went to a Church of England school. We had prayers and hymns but little study at that age concerning religion.

[Absurd]

They didn't want you to study so you couldn't make up your mind, Gem.

[kadda1212]

Sure, I appreciate that and I have very little personal study to speak of. Infact I do not know a great deal of biblical text at all. What I have garnered has been mostly from a Sunday school I attended independantly of my parents as a child because I really wanted to understand where these children were going every Sunday that I would see walking past my house. I was fascinated by the idea of religion as it was largely unavailable to me during my primary education... though oddly I went to a Church of England school. We had prayers and hymns but little study at that age concerning religion.

I suppose they don't really study the Bible at Sunday schools. You learn the basics there. Studying you have to do for yourself or you meet up with some people from church and read and discuss a chapter in the Bible and so on. If you want to know some interesting facts about each book in the Bible, check out Bibledex.com.

[kadda1212]

If you're open-mindedly wrong then you need to be corrected. If you're teaching a child math and he thinks 2+2=5, you need to correct him.
Nothing I've said to you thus far, in my opinion, should have offended you. You are choosing to be offended.
; )

Then let me teach you a lesson: If you take shrooms you'll damage your brain cells.
And you can't compare maths to history. Maths is pure logic, something is either false or true. But historic truth cannot be proven this easily.
But, do what you want, get high on shrooms, read tea leaves and horoscopes and humble thyself before the omniscient Godess of trivial knowledge Wikipedia - I don't care. If you think you find more truth in there, you're free to think that way.

[kadda1212]

By the way, I think it was @Aylen a few pages earlier, that tried to show by using the method of comparative mythology that the wonder of Cana, the turning of water into, is modeled after a Dionysian miracle.



After I watched this video and thought about it for a while, it came to me that John doesn't emphasize so much on the miracle itself, but an important fact that is sometimes not really read is the important aspect of the story. He takes the jars that are filled with water for Jewish ritual washing and turns this kind of water into wine. It's the first miracle Jesus did, the first sign. This has to be compared to one of his final acts on the last supper, where the wine is symbolically transformed into blood. Then you have: water to wash away your sins => wine => blood that washes away your sins.

[Aylen]

@kadda1212

That video was interesting. Thanks for posting. I like comparing different perspectives.

Over the years I have imagined that I have past lives in biblical timeframes. I decided these two women would have the type of lifetimes, that I, as an essence, would choose to experience.

 

 

Love Turns into Hate: The Rape of Tamar (2 Sam 13:1–22) in Baroque Art Sara Kipfer
While seventeenth-century artists often chose topics like Bathseba or Susanna at the Bath, the story of Amnon and Tamar was depicted only rarely.[1] However, the rape of Tamar is listed in the lexicon of Christian iconography as one of the favored themes of sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Italian and Dutch painters. It is depicted in no fewer than twenty paintings and probably also in as many copper engravings and woodcuts, among them a whole series of illustrations, such as the ones by Philips Galle, as well as an ink drawing by Rembrandt Harmensz van Rijn. The range of variation regarding the motif of Tamar’s rape and the various biblical passages that were chosen is striking but not extraordinary: while one piece of art depicts the hesitant approach of Amnon, another represents the repudiation of Tamar, and so on.

Here I will discuss some specifically selected pictures; the main aim is to show that paintings should not be seen as mere illustrations. To put it differently, paintings should be understood and analyzed as historical documents that serve as a medium of interpretation for biblical narratives. Therefore, consideration will be given to the embodiment of passion and violence or love and hate in text and painting. Furthermore, I will analyze how 2 Sam 13:1-22 is interpreted in baroque works of art.
“Come, lie with me, my sister.” (2 Sam 13:11)

Amnon’s love for Tamar begins with seeing. Tamar’s beauty (yafeh and in LXX kalē tō eidei sphodra in 2 Sam 13:1) is not by coincidence mentioned at the beginning of the story: as Amnon sees his half-sister, he is, like his father David in 2 Sam 11:2, lost. In the biblical text, various words for the visual aspect are used to express seeing (r’h 13:5-6 [but here, seeing means, among other things, to visit someone who is sick] and ’ayn 13:2, 5-6, 8).[2] It is only when Amnon sees Tamar that he is led to a violent taking (hzq 13:11, 14), and it is this circumstance, I would argue, that becomes the main theme of Antonio Bellucci’s painting because he changes both Amnon’s and the viewer’s perspective only slightly.

The viewer, particularly the male viewer, sees a beautiful, defenseless woman who draws back frightened. She looks far away into the distance and reaches out her arm, but she does not really defend herself. While this male viewer may condemn Amnon for acting selfishly and impulsively,[3] as well as for being incapable of making a commitment, this scene inevitably reminds him of his own longing. He sees how Amnon, by force, takes what he has seen before and therefore desires. Hence, the viewer not only is an observer and voyeur of this act of violence, but also becomes involved as co-rapist. Antonio Bellucci thus not only deals with a moralizing dimension of art, but encourages the viewer to a deeper reflection about painting and about how reality is depicted in art.

However, the picture is quite ambivalent because Antonio Bellucci illustrates Tamar as an idealized, resigned victim on the one hand, but lets her play with her female eroticism (her bare knee, for instance) on the other hand. This leads the viewer to suppose that Tamar seduced and tempted Amnon with her beauty. The narrow boundary between an act of love and act of violence is underlined by the artist through Amnon’s twofold gesticulation. At first sight, Amnon seems to jump at his half-sister like a wild animal, full of lust and longing, but, on closer examination, one gets the impression that he tenderly puts his arm around her and turns his face towards her in a considerate and caressing way. Amnon loves Tamar and wants to see her, but then he seizes and hates her. One wonders whether he still loves or already hates her in this painting.

The impression that location and time become blurred in this piece of art is strengthened by the fact that both the sickroom and the bed, the actual place of action, are hardly visible (mishkav 2 Sam 13:5).[4] It could be argued that the woman as an object of lust and a subject of seducement, rather than the actual rape of Tamar, becomes the main theme of Bellucci’s painting. It is very unfortunate, especially in this respect, that there are no pictures by female artists referring to 2 Sam 13:1-22. Artemisia Gentileschi (1593-1654)—according to documents relating to the trial, she had been raped by Agostino Tasse, a painter colleague of her father—dealt with her experiences by painting many biblical tableaus. She did not, however, illustrate the story of Tamar. Is it possible that she was not familiar with the story?



The first part of the story (1 Sam 13:1-10), like Bellucci’s painting, definitely has erotic components. The verb “prepare” (lvv), for instance, also means “to enchant through love” (2 Sam 13:6.8; Cant 4:9),[5] and the aphrodisiacal implication of the two heart-shaped cakes has often been pointed out. The narrator thereby makes sexual associations and creates an atmosphere in which the danger for Tamar is initiated. This danger becomes real with Amnon’s verbal assaults and his strength (verse 11, and the rape in verse 14).[6]

This male physical force reaches its climax in Eustache Le Sueur’s painting. In the past, it was incorrectly believed that Le Sueur’s painting represented Tarquinius und Lucretia(cf. the painting by Tizian, for example, completed between 1569 and 1571, Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge). But such pictures, in accordance with the story (see Ovidus, Fasti II.721–852), most often show the naked Lucretia lying in bed with Tarquinius standing dressed before her—which is not the case in Le Sueur’s work.




The knife in Amnon’s hand, an overthrown vessel, as well as the numerous folds of the cloth, increase the dramatic art. Tamar retreats, but at the same time defends herself with her arm and looks anxiously at the weapon in Amnon’s hand. The fleeing boy in the background symbolizes the impotence against this crime, but he is also its witness. To put it differently, there is someone who, against the biblical text (2 Sam 13:9), does not follow Amnon’s order and thus does not leave the room. Therefore, one could argue that the boy does not totally abandon Tamar. He, like the viewer of the painting, witnesses Amnon’s violent behavior, but does not intervene. Like the narrator of the biblical text, the boy is an observer who sympathizes with Tamar’s fate.[7]

“No, my brother, do not force me” (2 Sam 13:12)
Even though Tamar speaks in a direct and detailed way twice (2 Sam 13:12-13, 16), her feelings, except for her sorrow, remain vague. First, she willingly does what her father assigned to her (2 Sam 13:7-8) and then she resists her half-brother with clever words, finally leaving the scene in tears. Twice Amnon does not listen to her (2 Sam 13:14, 16); on the narrative level, this illustrates quite clearly who has both power and the right to make a decision and who dominates the story line. Guercino, but also Francesco Trevisani (1656-1746), foregrounds the topic of sexual seduction, or more precisely the conquest of women through men, by juxtaposing the painting of Amnon and Tamarwith that of Joseph and Potiphar’s wife.[8] Sexual desires and tactical reservation, as well as the fight of will and emotions, are displayed differently: Potiphar’s wife stretches out one hand towards Joseph and holds on to his cloak with the other hand. Joseph’s hand is raised in a gesture of rejection and reminds of Tamar’s gesture in the first picture. There, the image quite clearly loses its dramatic art and even seems to be glorified because Amnon and Tamar, both almost naked, are standing side by side in front of the bed. Instead of assaulting Tamar and touching her body directly, Amnon apparently tries to seduce her with words and softness.








Due to the fact that Tamar resists Amnon, Guercino sets her, together with Joseph, Susanna, and the Holy Cäcilia, in a long line of virtuous women and men who have resisted sexual attraction. Tamar’s refusing hand and her raised forefinger underline the prohibition that is connected to this scene. In the painting, as well as in the Bible, Tamar is a self-confident representative of her own interests. Even though she is defenseless and vulnerable because of her semi-nakedness, Tamar seems to debate quite wisely and shows Amnon with cunning words the possibility of loving each other legally. She does so without shame and fear and asks Amnon to act respectfully towards her, himself, and Israel’s traditions (2 Sam 13:12-13). However, it remains unclear which text passage is illustrated, since Tamar’s protest before or after the rape can be illustrated in one and the same painting.
“Get out!“ (2 Sam 13:15)

After the act of violence, Amnon’s longing turns into hate. He dismisses Tamar in a hard and brutal way and therefore drives her into social, emotional, and moral isolation. For her, this repudiation is even worse than the preceding rape (2 Sam 13:16). According to Exod 22:16 and Deut 22:28-29, a man who rapes a virgin is obliged to marry her after the violence. However, what Amnon does to Tamar cannot be explained simply by sexual desires that are out of control, which is why the narrator explicitly adds that Amnon’s love turned into hate (2 Sam 13:15). One could argue that Amnon’s self-disrespect finds expression in his behavior against Tamar because he treats her as if she was the one who disgraced him. Psychologically speaking, one could say that Amnon’s feelings of guilt manifest themselves involuntarily in disgust and renewed aggression.


While the Tamar in the painting of Jan Steen (Amnon and Tamar, Oil on panel, 1668-1670, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Köln) protests against Amnon’s rude dismissal and denial of love after satisfaction and is led out of the room by a servant who is gloatingly smiling (2 Sam 12:17), nothing of this is found in the illustration of Niccolò Renieri because he places special emphasis on Tamar’s quiet sorrow and despair. Renieri uses the motif of the crying woman in an almost identical way as in the painting of the dying Sophonisbe and the atoning Madeleine.[9] Therefore, the artist does not illustrate the mourning rituals that were common at the time of the kings and with the help of which Tamar, by putting ashes on her head, tearing her clothes, putting her hand on her head, and screaming while running away (2 Sam 13:19), makes the suffering that she sustained public. The painter, however, depicts Tamar’s crying as being almost motionless, resigned, and quiet.

Conclusion
It is striking that Amnon’s love for his half-sister (2 Sam 13:4) is described in a very bald way by the biblical narrator, who writes, for instance, “Amnon fell in love with her“ (2 Sam 13:1). Yes, Amnon loves his half-sister so much that he even becomes lovesick (hlh 2 Sam 13:2, 5-6; Cant 5:8). But what kind of love can turn as quickly into hate? The term’hv (2 Sam 13:1, 4, 15) means a strong feeling and a sensuous longing, and I would argue that it is too simple to reduce its meaning to erotic obsession. In fact, both feelings and their respective actions have to be taken seriously. Love is a condition and a possibility of hate,[10] which is why the plot is interrupted in verse 15 by the narrator, who adds an explanation that points out the change of Amnon’s love into strong hate (sin’ah 5x). It is exactly this aspect that the baroque paintings focus on: almost nothing of Amnon’s love for Tamar is depicted, and importance is given to the act of violence. This does not mean, however, that all paintings take umbrage at Amnon’s longing and simply condemn him. On the contrary, the paintings, as well as the text, abstain from making a moralizing comment and acknowledge the fact that the beauty of a woman sometimes evokes a passionate longing. Both the paintings and the biblical text deal with love’s destructive powers and mention the failure of Old Testament characters who enforced love or who—from Tamar’s perspective—could not resist violence. Unlike the figure of Susanna in baroque illustrations, for example, the figure of Tamar does not face the dilemma of giving in to her sexual instincts or not. The exercise of power and the behavior of the victim are mercilessly and openly depicted, which underlines determined patterns and roles on the one hand, but critically questions them on the other.
Sara Kipfer, University of Berne

The authors conclusion is very interesting to me. There are many ways to perceive a story. It's not just a story of half siblings it is a metaphor for something I cannot put into words. On my old website I had posted my love for the story of "Amnon and Tamar" and some people got offended. I ended up in a debate on good and evil which was not what I wanted to start. I just saw the beauty of the love story, and it is a love story, at the heart of it. Oh well, it is obvious that people cannot see eye to eye on some things. I appreciate it when people do see what my intentions really are and not their filtered perception.

Edit: I am puppy sitting again today and it is so awesome. Who knew a dog could make me so happy...

[rat1]

Then let me teach you a lesson: If you take shrooms you'll damage your brain cells.
And you can't compare maths to history. Maths is pure logic, something is either false or true. But historic truth cannot be proven this easily.
But, do what you want, get high on shrooms, read tea leaves and horoscopes and humble thyself before the omniscient Godess of trivial knowledge Wikipedia - I don't care. If you think you find more truth in there, you're free to think that way.

The history we've discussed is pretty straightforward in most areas. But it looks like you're done talking about it.

Shrooms do not damage brain cells. Infact they can induce the growth of new brain cells:
http://www.endalldisease.com/do-magi...e-brain-cells/
http://www.drugs.com/forum/drug-info...ain-44631.html
There are different types of brain cells. Some brain cells are constantly dying and being replenished. Overusage of shrooms (tripping multiple times a week) can deplete these cells, but they replenish themselves and no permanent damage is done.
Others cells are more permanent and less easily replaced. Shrooms don't damage those, and they promote growth in the hippocampus.

[Absurd]

I have found out your names in numerotrolology, crazie rat.

3, 4 and 0.

Three means you're going to get a divorce with your gay partner in March.

Four is the number of death, but fear not, you're going to get resurrected, but your gay partner won't, so in a way you're going to suffer loss and lots of cry cry.

Zero is found in the cosmos and the fridge, the great unknown the Gypsies call it...

[kadda1212]

@kadda1212

That video was interesting. Thanks for posting. I like comparing different perspectives.

Over the year I have imagined that I have past lives in biblical timeframes. I decided these two women would have the type of lifetimes, that I, as an essence, would choose to experience.

 

 

Love Turns into Hate: The Rape of Tamar (2 Sam 13:1–22) in Baroque Art Sara Kipfer
While seventeenth-century artists often chose topics like Bathseba or Susanna at the Bath, the story of Amnon and Tamar was depicted only rarely.[1] However, the rape of Tamar is listed in the lexicon of Christian iconography as one of the favored themes of sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Italian and Dutch painters. It is depicted in no fewer than twenty paintings and probably also in as many copper engravings and woodcuts, among them a whole series of illustrations, such as the ones by Philips Galle, as well as an ink drawing by Rembrandt Harmensz van Rijn. The range of variation regarding the motif of Tamar’s rape and the various biblical passages that were chosen is striking but not extraordinary: while one piece of art depicts the hesitant approach of Amnon, another represents the repudiation of Tamar, and so on.

Here I will discuss some specifically selected pictures; the main aim is to show that paintings should not be seen as mere illustrations. To put it differently, paintings should be understood and analyzed as historical documents that serve as a medium of interpretation for biblical narratives. Therefore, consideration will be given to the embodiment of passion and violence or love and hate in text and painting. Furthermore, I will analyze how 2 Sam 13:1-22 is interpreted in baroque works of art.
“Come, lie with me, my sister.” (2 Sam 13:11)

Amnon’s love for Tamar begins with seeing. Tamar’s beauty (yafeh and in LXX kalē tō eidei sphodra in 2 Sam 13:1) is not by coincidence mentioned at the beginning of the story: as Amnon sees his half-sister, he is, like his father David in 2 Sam 11:2, lost. In the biblical text, various words for the visual aspect are used to express seeing (r’h 13:5-6 [but here, seeing means, among other things, to visit someone who is sick] and ’ayn 13:2, 5-6, 8).[2] It is only when Amnon sees Tamar that he is led to a violent taking (hzq 13:11, 14), and it is this circumstance, I would argue, that becomes the main theme of Antonio Bellucci’s painting because he changes both Amnon’s and the viewer’s perspective only slightly.

The viewer, particularly the male viewer, sees a beautiful, defenseless woman who draws back frightened. She looks far away into the distance and reaches out her arm, but she does not really defend herself. While this male viewer may condemn Amnon for acting selfishly and impulsively,[3] as well as for being incapable of making a commitment, this scene inevitably reminds him of his own longing. He sees how Amnon, by force, takes what he has seen before and therefore desires. Hence, the viewer not only is an observer and voyeur of this act of violence, but also becomes involved as co-rapist. Antonio Bellucci thus not only deals with a moralizing dimension of art, but encourages the viewer to a deeper reflection about painting and about how reality is depicted in art.

However, the picture is quite ambivalent because Antonio Bellucci illustrates Tamar as an idealized, resigned victim on the one hand, but lets her play with her female eroticism (her bare knee, for instance) on the other hand. This leads the viewer to suppose that Tamar seduced and tempted Amnon with her beauty. The narrow boundary between an act of love and act of violence is underlined by the artist through Amnon’s twofold gesticulation. At first sight, Amnon seems to jump at his half-sister like a wild animal, full of lust and longing, but, on closer examination, one gets the impression that he tenderly puts his arm around her and turns his face towards her in a considerate and caressing way. Amnon loves Tamar and wants to see her, but then he seizes and hates her. One wonders whether he still loves or already hates her in this painting.

The impression that location and time become blurred in this piece of art is strengthened by the fact that both the sickroom and the bed, the actual place of action, are hardly visible (mishkav 2 Sam 13:5).[4] It could be argued that the woman as an object of lust and a subject of seducement, rather than the actual rape of Tamar, becomes the main theme of Bellucci’s painting. It is very unfortunate, especially in this respect, that there are no pictures by female artists referring to 2 Sam 13:1-22. Artemisia Gentileschi (1593-1654)—according to documents relating to the trial, she had been raped by Agostino Tasse, a painter colleague of her father—dealt with her experiences by painting many biblical tableaus. She did not, however, illustrate the story of Tamar. Is it possible that she was not familiar with the story?



The first part of the story (1 Sam 13:1-10), like Bellucci’s painting, definitely has erotic components. The verb “prepare” (lvv), for instance, also means “to enchant through love” (2 Sam 13:6.8; Cant 4:9),[5] and the aphrodisiacal implication of the two heart-shaped cakes has often been pointed out. The narrator thereby makes sexual associations and creates an atmosphere in which the danger for Tamar is initiated. This danger becomes real with Amnon’s verbal assaults and his strength (verse 11, and the rape in verse 14).[6]

This male physical force reaches its climax in Eustache Le Sueur’s painting. In the past, it was incorrectly believed that Le Sueur’s painting represented Tarquinius und Lucretia(cf. the painting by Tizian, for example, completed between 1569 and 1571, Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge). But such pictures, in accordance with the story (see Ovidus, Fasti II.721–852), most often show the naked Lucretia lying in bed with Tarquinius standing dressed before her—which is not the case in Le Sueur’s work.




The knife in Amnon’s hand, an overthrown vessel, as well as the numerous folds of the cloth, increase the dramatic art. Tamar retreats, but at the same time defends herself with her arm and looks anxiously at the weapon in Amnon’s hand. The fleeing boy in the background symbolizes the impotence against this crime, but he is also its witness. To put it differently, there is someone who, against the biblical text (2 Sam 13:9), does not follow Amnon’s order and thus does not leave the room. Therefore, one could argue that the boy does not totally abandon Tamar. He, like the viewer of the painting, witnesses Amnon’s violent behavior, but does not intervene. Like the narrator of the biblical text, the boy is an observer who sympathizes with Tamar’s fate.[7]

“No, my brother, do not force me” (2 Sam 13:12)
Even though Tamar speaks in a direct and detailed way twice (2 Sam 13:12-13, 16), her feelings, except for her sorrow, remain vague. First, she willingly does what her father assigned to her (2 Sam 13:7-8) and then she resists her half-brother with clever words, finally leaving the scene in tears. Twice Amnon does not listen to her (2 Sam 13:14, 16); on the narrative level, this illustrates quite clearly who has both power and the right to make a decision and who dominates the story line. Guercino, but also Francesco Trevisani (1656-1746), foregrounds the topic of sexual seduction, or more precisely the conquest of women through men, by juxtaposing the painting of Amnon and Tamarwith that of Joseph and Potiphar’s wife.[8] Sexual desires and tactical reservation, as well as the fight of will and emotions, are displayed differently: Potiphar’s wife stretches out one hand towards Joseph and holds on to his cloak with the other hand. Joseph’s hand is raised in a gesture of rejection and reminds of Tamar’s gesture in the first picture. There, the image quite clearly loses its dramatic art and even seems to be glorified because Amnon and Tamar, both almost naked, are standing side by side in front of the bed. Instead of assaulting Tamar and touching her body directly, Amnon apparently tries to seduce her with words and softness.








Due to the fact that Tamar resists Amnon, Guercino sets her, together with Joseph, Susanna, and the Holy Cäcilia, in a long line of virtuous women and men who have resisted sexual attraction. Tamar’s refusing hand and her raised forefinger underline the prohibition that is connected to this scene. In the painting, as well as in the Bible, Tamar is a self-confident representative of her own interests. Even though she is defenseless and vulnerable because of her semi-nakedness, Tamar seems to debate quite wisely and shows Amnon with cunning words the possibility of loving each other legally. She does so without shame and fear and asks Amnon to act respectfully towards her, himself, and Israel’s traditions (2 Sam 13:12-13). However, it remains unclear which text passage is illustrated, since Tamar’s protest before or after the rape can be illustrated in one and the same painting.
“Get out!“ (2 Sam 13:15)

After the act of violence, Amnon’s longing turns into hate. He dismisses Tamar in a hard and brutal way and therefore drives her into social, emotional, and moral isolation. For her, this repudiation is even worse than the preceding rape (2 Sam 13:16). According to Exod 22:16 and Deut 22:28-29, a man who rapes a virgin is obliged to marry her after the violence. However, what Amnon does to Tamar cannot be explained simply by sexual desires that are out of control, which is why the narrator explicitly adds that Amnon’s love turned into hate (2 Sam 13:15). One could argue that Amnon’s self-disrespect finds expression in his behavior against Tamar because he treats her as if she was the one who disgraced him. Psychologically speaking, one could say that Amnon’s feelings of guilt manifest themselves involuntarily in disgust and renewed aggression.


While the Tamar in the painting of Jan Steen (Amnon and Tamar, Oil on panel, 1668-1670, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Köln) protests against Amnon’s rude dismissal and denial of love after satisfaction and is led out of the room by a servant who is gloatingly smiling (2 Sam 12:17), nothing of this is found in the illustration of Niccolò Renieri because he places special emphasis on Tamar’s quiet sorrow and despair. Renieri uses the motif of the crying woman in an almost identical way as in the painting of the dying Sophonisbe and the atoning Madeleine.[9] Therefore, the artist does not illustrate the mourning rituals that were common at the time of the kings and with the help of which Tamar, by putting ashes on her head, tearing her clothes, putting her hand on her head, and screaming while running away (2 Sam 13:19), makes the suffering that she sustained public. The painter, however, depicts Tamar’s crying as being almost motionless, resigned, and quiet.

Conclusion
It is striking that Amnon’s love for his half-sister (2 Sam 13:4) is described in a very bald way by the biblical narrator, who writes, for instance, “Amnon fell in love with her“ (2 Sam 13:1). Yes, Amnon loves his half-sister so much that he even becomes lovesick (hlh 2 Sam 13:2, 5-6; Cant 5:8). But what kind of love can turn as quickly into hate? The term’hv (2 Sam 13:1, 4, 15) means a strong feeling and a sensuous longing, and I would argue that it is too simple to reduce its meaning to erotic obsession. In fact, both feelings and their respective actions have to be taken seriously. Love is a condition and a possibility of hate,[10] which is why the plot is interrupted in verse 15 by the narrator, who adds an explanation that points out the change of Amnon’s love into strong hate (sin’ah 5x). It is exactly this aspect that the baroque paintings focus on: almost nothing of Amnon’s love for Tamar is depicted, and importance is given to the act of violence. This does not mean, however, that all paintings take umbrage at Amnon’s longing and simply condemn him. On the contrary, the paintings, as well as the text, abstain from making a moralizing comment and acknowledge the fact that the beauty of a woman sometimes evokes a passionate longing. Both the paintings and the biblical text deal with love’s destructive powers and mention the failure of Old Testament characters who enforced love or who—from Tamar’s perspective—could not resist violence. Unlike the figure of Susanna in baroque illustrations, for example, the figure of Tamar does not face the dilemma of giving in to her sexual instincts or not. The exercise of power and the behavior of the victim are mercilessly and openly depicted, which underlines determined patterns and roles on the one hand, but critically questions them on the other.
Sara Kipfer, University of Berne

The authors conclusion is very interesting to me. There are many ways to perceive a story. It's not just a story of half siblings it is a metaphor for something I cannot put into words. On my old website I had posted my love for the story of "Amnon and Tamar" and some people got offended. I ended up in a debate on good and evil which was not what I wanted to start. I just saw the beauty of the love story, and it is a love story, at the heart of it. Oh well, it is obvious that people cannot see eye to eye on some things. I appreciate it when people do see what my intentions really are and not their filtered perception.

Edit: I am puppy sitting again today and it is so awesome. Who knew a dog could make me so happy...

Not so many women in the Bible to choose from. Every girl loves Esther, apparently. If you ask girls for their favorite bible character it's always her. I guess I like Judith from the apocryphes. But Mary is of course one of my favorites, because she followed God's will instead of the law and risked getting killed when she got pregnant.

[Aylen]

I have found out your names in numerotrolology, crazie rat.

3, 4 and 0.

Three means you're going to get a divorce with your gay partner in March.

Four is the number of death, but fear not, you're going to get resurrected, but your gay partner won't, so in a way you're going to suffer loss and lots of cry cry.

Zero is found in the cosmos and the fridge, the great unknown the Gypsies call it...

Nope not even close. I know his number in numerology.

[Aylen]

Not so many women in the Bible to choose from. Every girl loves Esther, apparently. If you ask girls for their favorite bible character it's always her. I guess I like Judith from the apocryphes. But Mary is of course one of my favorites, because she followed God's will instead of the law and risked getting killed when she got pregnant.

I kinda vibe with Magdalene. Most girls, I knew from my church days, said Mary (virgin) was their favorite. A lot of people I have met don't know about Esther (or what she did) or Tamar. There is another Tamar in the bible too.

[kadda1212]

I kinda vibe with Magdalene. Most girls, I knew from my church days, said Mary (virgin) was their favorite. A lot of people I have met don't know about Esther (or what she did) or Tamar. There is another Tamar in the bible too.

In my church every girl knows the story of Esther.
Mary Magdalene is also cool, compared to guys like Peter she stayed until the end, just like John. I don't really like the gnostic version of her though that inspired authors like Dan Brown. It's too sexualized and I guess only because she used to be a prostitute. The gnostics totally mixed her up with Helena and that original woman created by God, mother of the demiurgs. I read about that when I wrote about Simon Magus (interesting figure that one, archetype for every evil wizard character).
I guess I like the idea that Mary Magdalene finally found someone who didn't treat her like a piece of flesh.
Thinking about Tamar, it's kind of a sad story isn't it? Desire turning into hate...
And one of the most cruel stories is that of Jephta and his daughter (Judges is full of cruel stories where men are acting like idiots).

[Absurd]

Nope not even close. I know his number in numerology.

Don't just tell me that when you combine the magikal numbers three letters form the word g a y. Anyhow, I read that one has to count the Bible and not read it...

[kadda1212]

Nope not even close. I know his number in numerology.

Mine is 593 in Greek. I guess, a nice number.

[Aylen]

Don't just tell me that when you combine the magikal numbers three letters form the word g a y. Anyhow, I read that one has to count the Bible and not read it...

I read EVERYTHING...

[Absurd]

Herein lies the problem.

[rat1]

I love this video

Herein lies the problem.

The point isn't to strip the Bible of its spiritual meaning. It's the dogmatic interpretations which cause problems. And which are most prevalent amongst believers today, it seems.

[Absurd]

The point isn't to strip the Bible of its spiritual meaning. It's the dogmatic interpretations which cause problems. And which are most prevalent amongst believers today, it seems.

That's the 'same' thing Marx wrote. I'm going to let kadda deal with that monster...

I think I get your meaning but I have different reasons for seeing the "problem". I am focused in two worlds simultaneously. I am sure this may be viewed as "delusional" by some but fuck it.

Butt fuck it. Yes.

Anyhow, I am only in this thread for the free entertainment. Stripping Bibles, stripping belief and devotion require lots and lots of devotion I would rather put into something else. Later.

[Aylen]

Wait,.. before you go (party just started). I suppose you wouldn't want to get...

 

Nah, I suppose not..Ciao!

[Absurd]

Need sleep. Tomorrow or after tomorrow.

(Don't do drugs - find the control they have over me intolerable)

[kadda1212]

That's the 'same' thing Marx wrote. I'm going to let kadda deal with that monster...

Not sure if I want to deal with that monster. I find the idea of stripping the bible of its content extremely diabolic though.
I guess, rat just likes to create some conflict. Let him do that, I don't care.
See, I went to this lecture about the Wiccan religion and there it was said that people who lean towards special religions like old pagan religions or eastern religions are craving for individualism and something that defines who they are, because the suffer from not really knowing who they are. They want to be special and not really take part in an organized religion. Sounded like an Fi thing, somehow.

[Aylen]

Why they down on individualism? How can you truly know yourself if you do not experience yourself as an individual, with unique aspects, yet connected to all that is?

I don't want to be:

Edit: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm

Edit 2: I do not practice any religion so I am not advocating one over another. I choose what makes sense from any of the religions and discard what doesn't.

[Absurd]

Not sure if I want to deal with that monster. I find the idea of stripping the bible of its content extremely diabolic though.

That's the spirit. Get those Alpha/Beta commies.

See, I went to this lecture about the Wiccan religion and there it was said that people who lean towards special religions like old pagan religions or eastern religions are craving for individualism

Well, crazie rat and Aylen are the 'modern' Varg Vikerness.

Sounded like an Fi thing, somehow.

I'm sure it did.

[kadda1212]

Why they down on individualism? How can you truly know yourself if you do not experience yourself as an individual, with unique aspects, yet connected to all that is?

I don't want to be:

Edit: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm

Edit 2: I do not practice any religion so I am not advocating one over another. I choose what makes sense from any of the religions and discard what doesn't.

Individualism, nothing wrong with that. The idea was more about searching for something that makes you special. Not wanting to be mainstream. The need for something that defines who you are sends you then on a journey of trying things. Doesn't need to be religion, it could be a subculture, too. Something like that. The question in that lecture was mainly, why there seems to be a trend of people nowadays to start worshiping Celtic or Greek gods again (I'm talking about European people now), but many people wouldn't start worshiping Aztec gods. Because they are searching for something different and special that is not a major trend, but it mustn't be too strange from what they are used, too.

[Aylen]

Well, crazie rat and Aylen are the 'modern' Varg Vikerness.

Whaaat? you got me fucked up.

[Absurd]

No, I didn't. Thing is I wanted to do it and knew some readers won't take any measures to straighten it out. Such is life...

[Aylen]

No, I didn't. Thing is I wanted to do it and knew some readers won't take any measures to straighten it out. Such is life...

"We are all shades of gray. Its been said again and again; Lifes a process we are fleeting moments that come and go, and i'm grateful for my time, my aspirations, my mistakes, my flaws and my abilities, think of me what you will but before you do, don't"

[Absurd]

"We are all shades of gray. Its been said again and again; Lifes a process we are fleeting moments that come and go, and i'm grateful for my time, my aspirations, my mistakes, my flaws and my abilities, think of me what you will but before you do, don't"

Well, I am in the process of staying a bit longer than I anticipated. Have to take enormous pleasure in AshSun. Call me cruel, but hey...

[Aylen]

 

La, la, la la (Yeah)
Wait 'til I get my money right

[Verse 1]

I had a dream I could buy my way to heaven
When I woke, I spent that on a necklace
I told God I'd be back in a second
Man it's so hard not to act reckless
To whom much is given, much is tested
Get arrested guess until he get the message
I feel the pressure, under more scrutiny
And what I do, act more stupidly
Bought more jewelry, more Louis V
My Momma couldn't get through to me
The drama, people suing me

I'm on TV talking like it's just you and me
I'm just saying how I feel man
I ain't one of the Cosby's, I ain't go to Hillman
I guess the money should've changed him
I guess I should've forgot where I came from

[Hook: Kanye (w/ Young Jeezy)]

La, la, la la
Wait 'til I get my money right
La, la, la la
Then you can't tell me nothing, right?
Excuse me, was you saying something?
Uh uh, you can't tell me nothing
You can't tell me nothing
Uh uh, you can't tell me nothing

[Verse 2]

Let up the suicide doors
This is my life homie, you decide yours
I know that Jesus died for us
But I couldn't tell ya who decide wars
So I parallel double parked that motherfucker sideways
Old folks talking bout back in my day
But homie this is my day, class started 2 hours ago
Oh am I late? No, I already graduated
And you can live through anything if Magic made it

They say I talk with so much emphasis
Ooh they so sensitive
Don't ever fix your lips like collagen
And say something when you gon' end up apologizin'
Let me know if it's a problem then, aight man, holla then
[Hook]

[Verse 3]

Let the champagne splash
Let that man get cash
Let that man get past
He don't even stop to get gas
If he can move through the rumors
He can drive off of fumes cause
How he move in a room full of no's?
How he stay faithful in a room full of hoes?
Must be the pharaohs, he in tune with his soul
So when he buried in a tomb full of gold
Treasure, what's your pleasure?

Life is a, UH, depending how you dress her
So if the devil wear Prada, Adam Eve wear nada
I'm in between but way more fresher
With way less effort, cause when you try hard
That's when you die hard
Your homies looking like why God
When they reminisce over you, my God

[rat1]

Why they down on individualism? How can you truly know yourself if you do not experience yourself as an individual, with unique aspects, yet connected to all that is?

I don't want to be:

Edit: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_rel.htm

Edit 2: I do not practice any religion so I am not advocating one over another. I choose what makes sense from any of the religions and discard what doesn't.

At this point Kadda isn't discussing the actual issues, and shifts to personal attacks on my character and underlying motives... all irrelevant. Responding to her at all seems to legitimize this. But Kadda is a passive aggressive manipulator; she doesn't seem interested in examining evidence or being rational. You're free to keep struggling with her.. I'm out

[Absurd]

[Eliza Thomason]

... I was a Christian, Greek Orthodox and "Born Again". I had people along the way, my step dad, teach me to investigate and think for myself. He taught me that blind faith is not the wisest thing for me. I was a member of cult like groups, when I was younger, and his guidance helped me to question the distortions I saw, instead of just believing someone else's view. I am questioning by nature but not all people are...

Your step-Dad sounds very wise, and blessed you. I see truth-seeking in you. That is something I value. (I also see it in @kadda1212 here. Nice job explaining your views, Kadda.) Truth seeking is something I value. My experience with investigating Christian teachings and various Christian groups is pretty extensive. The last and the fullest investigation has been Catholic, though I considered Orthodox briefly just before that. What is your personal life experience with Christian, Born-Again, and Orthodox? Could you tell us a little of it? Also which Christian cults?? I have learned much on several of those, too.

(I did skim some of the new stuff you are into, but its these that I am so curious to hear more of, as to what your experiences are, if you would be willing to share it.)

[Absurd]

Kadda says you're going to fry in hell, @rat1

[Aylen]

Kadda says you're going to fry in hell, @rat1

Then he will be in good company...I am having a E4 day.

[Absurd]

No, No. Not Metallica, Aylen. I am melting!

[Aylen]

No, No. Not Metallica, Aylen. I am melting!

Melting? Me too! I'm going to shower...water energizes me even though I have a bit of an allergy to it...not the bad kind, thank god/dess

[Aylen]

Your step-Dad sounds very wise, and blessed you. I see truth-seeking in you. That is something I value. (I also see it in @kadda1212 here. Nice job explaining your views, Kadda.) Truth seeking is something I value. My experience with investigating Christian teachings and various Christian groups is pretty extensive. The last and the fullest investigation has been Catholic, though I considered Orthodox briefly just before that. What is your personal life experience with Christian, Born-Again, and Orthodox? Could you tell us a little of it? Also which Christian cults?? I have learned much on several of those, too.

(I did skim some of the new stuff you are into, but its these that I am so curious to hear more of, as to what your experiences are, if you would be willing to share it.)

I have been planning to respond to this but it has to be in the right time...see my newest blog post for an explanation of how I came to form some of my beliefs.

[kadda1212]

Kadda says you're going to fry in hell, @rat1

DON'T PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH, ABSURD OR I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU HELL!!!!

[kadda1212]

0:30 - 1:30 That's what I imagine hell to look like. Plus fire.
But, I love that video so much, and the song by Gungor is amazing...blows my mind away.