How is Ti PoLR manifested in ENFps and ESFps?

[silke]

When I ask my IEE roomate "why" sort of questions it seems to stall her and throw her into confusion. I like to understand how things work and she apparently doesn't think much of this. I've noticed that asking IEEs to provide their reasoning has a similar effect.

That's essentially how it works for me to be Ti PoLR: rejection of "the rules," whatever they may be. That's not to say rejection of law in general, but rejection of the existence of externally static laws under which the world is subjugated.

Fi has it's own set of "rules" or "values" which it subjugates the world to. This is not just a Ti conception.

[Galen]

That's essentially how it works for me to be Ti PoLR: rejection of "the rules," whatever they may be. That's not to say rejection of law in general, but rejection of the existence of externally static laws under which the world is subjugated.

Fi has it's own set of "rules" or "values" which it subjugates the world to. This is not just a Ti conception.

Well of course, but the nature of the rules in question are very different. The "rules" that I find myself creating/noticing about the world are much more based intrinsically, having a more implicit and less tangible staticness and order rather than the order being, uhm, I guess more tangible. The difference here would be perceived externality vs perceived internality, if that makes any sense. Like, the kind of consistency I associate with Fi can't be measured in any real tangible way. It can only be felt, or something.

[Beautiful sky]

They are both subjective and they both try to fill in holes where information is incomplete. I remember my sister asking my LSI brother-in-law who was the president of the US at a certain time, which is a fact, but since he didn't really know, he didn't say "I don't know" instead he assumed, and was wrong.

[Suz]

They are both subjective and they both try to fill in holes where information is incomplete. I remember my sister asking my LSI brother-in-law who was the president of the US at a certain time, which is a fact, but since he didn't really know, he didn't say "I don't know" instead he assumed, and was wrong.

I HATE this sort of thing...misinformation... I've found that Ti-HAs are the WORST about doing this. I'm like hey if you dont know, just say you dont know and i'll go look it up or ask someone else, why give me bad info??

Then, when I am asked something and i dont know the answer, such people look down upon me for saying "i dont know", but how else will i find out, i mean i wont learn if i keep going around pretending like i know everything...

[Ozz]

I HATE this sort of thing...misinformation... I've found that Ti-HAs are the WORST about doing this. I'm like hey if you dont know, just say you dont know and i'll go look it up or ask someone else, why give me bad info??

Then, when I am asked something and i dont know the answer, such people look down upon me for saying "i dont know", but how else will i find out, i mean i wont learn if i keep going around pretending like i know everything...

In my experience, if you challenge some obviously wrong Ti belief in a Ti-HI person, they feel really hurt or they start grasping at straws trying to explain why they are right, then the explanation doesn't make sense and we start going around in circle.

[Suz]

In my experience, if you challenge some obviously wrong Ti belief in a Ti-HI person, they feel really hurt or they start grasping at straws trying to explain why they are right, then the explanation doesn't make sense and we start going around in circle.

yeah i get that, but it makes me so mad when i find out it was bad info. I feel betrayed because i was counting on the info being true, since they say that they are so sure about it. I feel lied to and i dont see their self-pride as a good excuse for spreading misinformation as if it were true.

[Crink]

the typical written material about this is basically spot on for me.

I think every polr is a preference for the mobilizing. They misunderstand the polr as the creative or the mobilizing.

I don't acknowledge "authority" on information. The correct authority to me is whoever can give the best explanation for how to do something properly. I completely reject the notion that any logical structure can be proven or taken as true. If I like you, I care about your values. If I don't know you or care about you, I do not care about your values. I'll listen to them but I won't treat it seriously. I'll validate it as correct for you but don't expect me to take that on myself unless it effects you personally, and effects our relationship.

I do build models of thought and compare models but I forget which connections I made and cannot explain them in a sane way. I would never look at a chart that I didn't need for drawing conclusions. I like it if I need it but it saps my energy so I need to find the most important information and leave the rest.

[Distance]

the typical written material about this is basically spot on for me.

I think every polr is a preference for the mobilizing. They misunderstand the polr as the creative or the mobilizing.

I don't acknowledge "authority" on information. The correct authority to me is whoever can give the best explanation for how to do something properly. I completely reject the notion that any logical structure can be proven or taken as true. If I like you, I care about your values. If I don't know you or care about you, I do not care about your values. I'll listen to them but I won't treat it seriously. I'll validate it as correct for you but don't expect me to take that on myself unless it effects you personally, and effects our relationship.

I do build models of thought and compare models but I forget which connections I made and cannot explain them in a sane way. I would never look at a chart that I didn't need for drawing conclusions. I like it if I need it but it saps my energy so I need to find the most important information and leave the rest.

People who are Fe Ti, support the integrity of the structure, Ti, or put another way, you emote in the great crowd with the Fe, and hold that tack in value direction. It is never taken as an absolute truth, rules, it is to support harmony with the rainbows for the in the moment structure. Fe in people is changeability in the self, ala group consensus value, to hold an integrity wherever that might lie, in the given sail in the ship. The rule is in the crosshair of the Fe.

[Northstar]

I don't acknowledge "authority" on information. The correct authority to me is whoever can give the best explanation for how to do something properly. I completely reject the notion that any logical structure can be proven or taken as true. If I like you, I care about your values. If I don't know you or care about you, I do not care about your values. I'll listen to them but I won't treat it seriously. I'll validate it as correct for you but don't expect me to take that on myself unless it effects you personally, and effects our relationship.

I do build models of thought and compare models but I forget which connections I made and cannot explain them in a sane way. I would never look at a chart that I didn't need for drawing conclusions. I like it if I need it but it saps my energy so I need to find the most important information and leave the rest.

Yes, this is a common source of disconnect with IEE I have. They seem to be always looking for someone that quietly solves the problem of analyzing information and then patiently teaches them step by step how to perform tasks, and unfortunately I just don't find that interesting. Instead I prefer to explain principles of operation, how something works on the inside, like which physical principles guide a machine's operation down to the finest details, how I make clear distinctions between things. Classification and categorization.
If there's a task that needs to be performed, I prefer just to do it myself instead of teaching myself an "apprentice" to help me perform that task. If I need assistance with something (I rarely do or ask for it), then I just tell them what to do in that moment and let them go as soon as I don't need the help anymore.

The "apprentice" thing is more for analyzing things, I like to point people to sources of information and then let them analyze it themselves and later discuss with me if there are things they need clarified. I do like clarifying things and reducing them to the most atomic components so that there are no ambiguities and the distinctions are crystal clear. It's done in the moment though, more like an instinct and I don't attach importance to being absolutely right about these, they are more malleable and open for discussion. I enjoy hearing the insights they may have to the material.

When it comes to methods and ways of doing things, I'm less interested in discussions and pointers. Typically I shut down suggestions from others on how to do something differently (the Te mobilizing seems to be very eager to give these suggestions) unless I know the one making the suggestion is an expert on the task at hand. The problem usually is that these suggestions from a Te mobilizing person contain some flaws that would need to be discussed and refined and I just find it uninteresting and a waste of time to do.

I do think to myself quite a bit about the most efficient way of doing things but often end up just doing it the simplest "brute force" way as there's a great impatience of just getting things done instead of doing "work preparations" that I don't derive any joy from. This translates into a lack of interest in discussing these job preparations either. It's much more rewarding to discuss observations and analyze the inner workings of things.

You could summarize this as preferring to just solve Te problems instead of discussing them and preferring to discuss Ti problems instead of just solving them.
Phrased as a request from Ti polr / Te mob it would be "analyze this information for me and discuss with me on how to perform this task"
Conversely for Te polr / Ti mob it would be "analyze this information with me and perform this task for me"

So yes, I kind of see the creative -> mobilizing relationship as "teacher and apprentice" type of relationship.
For Fe HA, I seem to find many of the memes and things IEIs say as hilarious and often recycle their jokes and appropriate funny phrases and sayings. IEI have a very irreverent sense of humor which I find funny to "take public" as they usually keep it to private trusted conversations, being wary of being judged for it in public.
Another thing is how I like to troll for reactions from people and Fe creatives often have the most amusing of reactions of being horrified and bemused but not actually offended.

[qaz00]

Yes, this is a common source of disconnect with IEE I have. They seem to be always looking for someone that quietly solves the problem of analyzing information and then patiently teaches them step by step how to perform tasks, and unfortunately I just don't find that interesting. Instead I prefer to explain principles of operation, how something works on the inside, like which physical principles guide a machine's operation down to the finest details, how I make clear distinctions between things. Classification and categorization.
If there's a task that needs to be performed, I prefer just to do it myself instead of teaching myself an "apprentice" to help me perform that task. If I need assistance with something (I rarely do or ask for it), then I just tell them what to do in that moment and let them go as soon as I don't need the help anymore.

The "apprentice" thing is more for analyzing things, I like to point people to sources of information and then let them analyze it themselves and later discuss with me if there are things they need clarified. I do like clarifying things and reducing them to the most atomic components so that there are no ambiguities and the distinctions are crystal clear. It's done in the moment though, more like an instinct and I don't attach importance to being absolutely right about these, they are more malleable and open for discussion. I enjoy hearing the insights they may have to the material.

When it comes to methods and ways of doing things, I'm less interested in discussions and pointers. Typically I shut down suggestions from others on how to do something differently (the Te mobilizing seems to be very eager to give these suggestions) unless I know the one making the suggestion is an expert on the task at hand. The problem usually is that these suggestions from a Te mobilizing person contain some flaws that would need to be discussed and refined and I just find it uninteresting and a waste of time to do.

I do think to myself quite a bit about the most efficient way of doing things but often end up just doing it the simplest "brute force" way as there's a great impatience of just getting things done instead of doing "work preparations" that I don't derive any joy from. This translates into a lack of interest in discussing these job preparations either. It's much more rewarding to discuss observations and analyze the inner workings of things.

You could summarize this as preferring to just solve Te problems instead of discussing them and preferring to discuss Ti problems instead of just solving them.
Phrased as a request from Ti polr / Te mob it would be "analyze this information for me and discuss with me on how to perform this task"
Conversely for Te polr / Ti mob it would be "analyze this information with me and perform this task for me"

So yes, I kind of see the creative -> mobilizing relationship as "teacher and apprentice" type of relationship.
For Fe HA, I seem to find many of the memes and things IEIs say as hilarious and often recycle their jokes and appropriate funny phrases and sayings. IEI have a very irreverent sense of humor which I find funny to "take public" as they usually keep it to private trusted conversations, being wary of being judged for it in public.
Another thing is how I like to troll for reactions from people and Fe creatives often have the most amusing of reactions of being horrified and bemused but not actually offended.

I very much agree with your observations. Excerpt from SEE: https://imgur.com/a/tpvjS04 I like solving that kind of issues, but I can imagine someone like you going crazy having to deal with it on daily basis

[Northstar]

I very much agree with your observations. Excerpt from SEE: https://imgur.com/a/tpvjS04 I like solving that kind of issues, but I can imagine someone like you going crazy having to deal with it on daily basis

Yeah this kind of intellectual laziness combined with a pushy attitude is deeply annoying.

An IEI might make a spreadsheet to compare options if you just help them along a bit. They might instead just never get around to fixing things in utter disrepair in their home but I would just gladly fix it for them immediately.

[Crink]

Yes, this is a common source of disconnect with IEE I have. They seem to be always looking for someone that quietly solves the problem of analyzing information and then patiently teaches them step by step how to perform tasks, and unfortunately I just don't find that interesting. Instead I prefer to explain principles of operation, how something works on the inside, like which physical principles guide a machine's operation down to the finest details, how I make clear distinctions between things. Classification and categorization.
If there's a task that needs to be performed, I prefer just to do it myself instead of teaching myself an "apprentice" to help me perform that task. If I need assistance with something (I rarely do or ask for it), then I just tell them what to do in that moment and let them go as soon as I don't need the help anymore.

The "apprentice" thing is more for analyzing things, I like to point people to sources of information and then let them analyze it themselves and later discuss with me if there are things they need clarified. I do like clarifying things and reducing them to the most atomic components so that there are no ambiguities and the distinctions are crystal clear. It's done in the moment though, more like an instinct and I don't attach importance to being absolutely right about these, they are more malleable and open for discussion. I enjoy hearing the insights they may have to the material.

When it comes to methods and ways of doing things, I'm less interested in discussions and pointers. Typically I shut down suggestions from others on how to do something differently (the Te mobilizing seems to be very eager to give these suggestions) unless I know the one making the suggestion is an expert on the task at hand. The problem usually is that these suggestions from a Te mobilizing person contain some flaws that would need to be discussed and refined and I just find it uninteresting and a waste of time to do.

I do think to myself quite a bit about the most efficient way of doing things but often end up just doing it the simplest "brute force" way as there's a great impatience of just getting things done instead of doing "work preparations" that I don't derive any joy from. This translates into a lack of interest in discussing these job preparations either. It's much more rewarding to discuss observations and analyze the inner workings of things.

You could summarize this as preferring to just solve Te problems instead of discussing them and preferring to discuss Ti problems instead of just solving them.
Phrased as a request from Ti polr / Te mob it would be "analyze this information for me and discuss with me on how to perform this task"
Conversely for Te polr / Ti mob it would be "analyze this information with me and perform this task for me"

So yes, I kind of see the creative -> mobilizing relationship as "teacher and apprentice" type of relationship.
For Fe HA, I seem to find many of the memes and things IEIs say as hilarious and often recycle their jokes and appropriate funny phrases and sayings. IEI have a very irreverent sense of humor which I find funny to "take public" as they usually keep it to private trusted conversations, being wary of being judged for it in public.
Another thing is how I like to troll for reactions from people and Fe creatives often have the most amusing of reactions of being horrified and bemused but not actually offended.

I also find my mobilizing to be hilarious. Fe polrs humor hits the spot for me

[Northstar]

I also find my mobilizing to be hilarious. Fe polrs humor hits the spot for me

How would you describe it? In my experience it looks like IEE/SLI humor may include self-depreciating humor, people and animals failing things in funny ways, stories of other people's incompetence but also of their own failures.

[Crink]

How would you describe it? In my experience it looks like IEE/SLI humor may include self-depreciating humor, people and animals failing things in funny ways, stories of other people's incompetence but also of their own failures.

Yeah all this is true. I find it funny when they make fun of ti stuff, including making fun of me and other people for drawing hasty conclusions and just being illogical in general. It's like of my fing gawd that's so true and I didn't notice till they said that. An example would be pointing out contradictions in an ideology, but at the perfect moment, which is usually bordering on inappropriate timing ie when someone might get annoyed at them. Maximum disrespect to dumb assumptions but reeled in just enough not to cause problems.

It's definitely a mixture of strong logic, geared toward what's useful and what's not, and low ethics. I find that other logical types also have this kind of humor (LIE, LSE, SLE etc) but the fe polr types deliver it in such a nonchalant 'idgaf' manner that you kinda have to laugh to avoid being so uncomfortable. Why I enjoy that, I do not know.

[Northstar]

Yeah all this is true. I find it funny when they make fun of ti stuff, including making fun of me and other people for drawing hasty conclusions and just being illogical in general. It's like of my fing gawd that's so true and I didn't notice till they said that. An example would be pointing out contradictions in an ideology, but at the perfect moment, which is usually bordering on inappropriate timing ie when someone might get annoyed at them. Maximum disrespect to dumb assumptions but reeled in just enough not to cause problems.

It's definitely a mixture of strong logic, geared toward what's useful and what's not, and low ethics. I find that other logical types also have this kind of humor (LIE, LSE, SLE etc) but the fe polr types deliver it in such a nonchalant 'idgaf' manner that you kinda have to laugh to avoid being so uncomfortable. Why I enjoy that, I do not know.

I see, it's a bit of an abstract example but I could see that. My SLI friend usually liked to make fun of people spelling things wrong so that the sentence had a double meaning so it's kind of a pointing out mistakes thing. I found that pretty funny too, though I would make those jokes only rarely myself. I think my form of humor is more in the moment commenting on something or someone brutally or otherwise breaking social etiquette with the comment which seems to be funny to Fe egos especially. Maybe it's something they secretly agree with but wouldn't say out loud themselves.

An example that comes to mind is IEE telling about working extra at sorting fish with a bunch of other people from the village, and there was one couple where the husband hates pike (the fish) but the wife liked to make meals out of it which then her husband would have to eat. IEE thought it was super funny that when a pike turned up the husband would be all "quick, don't show it to my wife" and the others would call the wife's name that "here's yet another pike for you"

I'm not sure what's supposed to be funny about that, it kind of sounds even less funny now that I wrote it out. Maybe it's about poking fun at the husband's "suffering" of having to eat something he doesn't like.