Originally Posted by Pa3s
Well then, no more socionics. I can't say how saddened I am. As for Smilingsomething, I can read his precious abstract stuff to a few lines and I think I read way too much to actually agree with anything he states.
That's exactly what Smilingsomething wrote.
- RockyI guess what I'm trying to say, is that if I can change, and you can change, everybody can change!
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Win. All of this.
❤ Probably ILI, or IE I/EIE/EII. PM me if you have ideas about my type! Ennagram 2w3 7w8 1w9. ❤
Sure! Everything changes and screw this "inherent" crap. What's inside of me is vessels constantly moving blood, intestines moving food, comprised of components that move with their own moving parts, and so on, etc. I got Dave Grohl as having changed from Ne-IEE to Fi-IEE over the course of a decade, and people here reported subtype changes of their own. I've seen instances in which two non-Identical types are closer to each other in functional strength than two Identical types. All a matter of where that invisible boundary happens to be drawn.
For me to be wrong, gotta nail it down for 7+ billion. For me to be right, gotta nail it down for one.
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
Sociotype does not change. Theoretically, Enneatype can.
I should also mention: it is possible to mold a sociotype by being dualized and become more well-rounded.
I've always believed that type couldn't change, but I'm starting to see how it could.
I've wondered about trauma causing "shadow functions" to surface (mbti), and realizing that may be why I seem to have developed Fi (socionics) in certain circumstances, and in mbti testing, I score higher in Fi sometimes than I do Fe.
If you have trouble typing yourself, ie, you seem to have features of 3 different types, who's to say you can't cross over to another type completely, with development and/or trauma?
I think to place people into 16 types, is obviously not going to produce accurate or perfectly categorical results. Some people are too random and messy to fit any one type perfectly. (Jung never did this).
It just depends on the way the individual chooses and/or is forced to grow.
Some people on the border of two types with traits of both, yea, I think they can possibly swing either way with growth and/or trauma.
For example, say you are ISTj and say you are 50/50 Ne/Ni and 50/50 Se/Si in testing, who's to say you can't develop Ne and Si to the point where you would virtually swing over to being an INTj type (and of course, you would have to flip the order of functions, but in some cases, I think some people have developed their 3rd functions, especially later in life)? (Of course, enneagram makes a difference though). I'm saying, is it possible that you could become a neighboring type? And for all due purposes, it seems like Jung may've even thought so.
I suppose I'm starting to understand that in certain circumstances, yes, I think it's possible to become another type, although I think it's a rarity. In "normal", common development, probably not. I also think that as people grow older, some of them have developed in such ways that they are more difficult to type at all. Abberations.
(Yes, I'm still working on making conversions to socionics, and I'm kinda mixing mbti theory and socionics theory together lol, but it's kinda interesting at the same time.....).
Yea, I believe this. But I take it one step further and believe that I can mold myself simply by forming a relationship with anyone who has different function usage. Seems to induce development in that direction.
Last edited by jet city woman; 06-20-2012 at 05:56 AM.
...she was later driven mad after spending 50 years amongst conflictors in hopes of achieving enlightenment.
P.S. Stay away from MBTI; it's evil.
somebody explain this to me (actually don't, this is a rhetorical request):
the type change of which people generally have the least trouble accepting it could happen is the one where the base function stays the same, but the creative function switches from the current one to it's opposite.
observation: this makes a person's PoLR function go from PoLR to one of the strongest functions in the psyche. likewise, the creative function goes from being one of the strongest functions to being PoLR.
WHAT IS THIS FUNCTION DOING DURING THE TRANSITION BETWEEN THE TWO STATES.
your theory claims that the function is in some kind of suspended state between extreme weakness and considerable strength.
sorry, but this just makes your model fall apart completely.
Well, i see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily subscribe to socionics completely, either. I think development and/or trauma can cause a function to become stronger. Black/white = yes, there is a developmental stage. The function is developing during the transition period. It's in a state of grey. Functions are switching on/being used at different points in time and in different situations (such as, fear-based reactions can trigger usage of Fi which is not natural but developed in order to protect oneself in learned-trauma situations). (Could be...... although I think functions could develop quite forcefully when the need arises.) I'm truly not sure if the "shadow function" usage is anything but a shadow of what a real personality is..... I'm not really sure what it means to me at this time (mbti). But I definitely can imagine one function overriding another in trauma situations, and these can be learned behaviors which are never reversed.
I suppose by socionics terms, the model would become a different model, but can we truly say that one model can fit all human beings? I don't think that's possible. (I'm also not sure if the creative function would go to POLR, or where it would go....irl.) I'll have to think about it....
I do think it's interesting that I've been attracted to Ne-leading types, regardless of relations. I think it may simply be because I want to develop Ne........ tbh.
Last edited by jet city woman; 06-20-2012 at 06:18 PM.
Perhaps the changes we experience are really changes in our own acceptance of ourselves.
The DCHN subtype system - socionics most advanced but apparently not ready for release subtyping system -- is fundementally about how a person alters their energy level in accordance to their degree of acceptance of their core sociotype. The harmonizing and normative subtypes reduce and redirect their energies away from their fundemental ego block competencies. The harmonizing type enters into an escapist, yet meditative flowstate - they are withdrawn and dreamy. The normative subtype protects themselves my lowering their ambitions - typically away from their ego block competencies. They set up social and psychological barriers that keep them withdrawn - and tend to be highly territorial. Many things can trigger the normative subtype to act in a highly guarded manner. They are the most subdued form of the sociotype. Furthermore, H and N types do not always behave like memebers of their actual quarta.
I can easily see H and N types changing. This would look like a whole shift in sociotype.
Last edited by Saberstorm; 06-20-2012 at 07:30 AM.
Socionics -
the16types.info
yes, this is exactly what I was thinking!
I know a girl, used to be pretty clear cut Te-LIE. Now I gotta set her at Te-LSE. She developed this tendency to plan things in an overly strict manner, and said plans repeatedly fell through. The crystalline prison always managed to shatter and rain its jagged shards on the both of us, worse and worse each time. We never used to have this problem. Also, the way she went about things changed; she used to seem as if the glue she used to meld together her vast array of mental info was in the nontangible, now it's... different somehow.
And yes, Si PolR and Ni Polr both make sense in this case; we're really fucking loud and anyone looking at us funny makes me want to get even louder so they feel overwhelmed, and she seems cool with this; already mentioned the overplanning.
I've been thinking about that one a lot really, and hell, Se, Te, and Fe are biggies. My workplace has another peak Se-ESxp, same deal there completely. Loads of energy, looks like he's gonna jump right out of his skin at times! If anything, it's the Ne stuff that kicks us in the balls...
"PolR" has a shit ton of connotations to it. It's a Creative function that does less "creating" than its valued counterpart. Oftentimes, it sucks. If we're doing the zero-sum game thing, then an increase in one function's strength will bring about a decrease in the sum of all other seven functions' strengths. Anything past that, I leave up to the individual. I see the socion as a physical landscape moreso than an arrangement of specifically positioned on/off switches...
p . . . a . . . n . . . d . . . o . . . r . . . a
trad metalz | (more coming)
The notion of change implies change, that is, complete transformation where you're no longer are what you have been before. One can say you're not going to be human anymore for these parts you speak have been replaced by different parts. Anyhow, evolution of man is already over, we do not evolve as a species known as homo sapiens sapiens. For that kind of change to take place you're not longer talking about humans, you do not know what you're talking about after such changes take place, no one knows, it didn't happen yet.
So dragging this even further your heart is going to have to pump gasoline and your intestines, providing they're still intestines, move scrap metal. The constitution of man is so composed that the individual cannot function efficiently without the alignment of each and every part and organ of his anatomy. The revolt of some part of the anatomy against the remaining whole, results in an internal revolution that brings death to man in consequence.
Unless you meant something entirely else.
Yes, this is good. I think if one wants to discuss change it's better to discuss subtype change, because that's where it can happen. DCNH subtype change would be percieved as a very big change in personality. Sociotype change is not even worth discussing in my opinion.
yeah.
and if you think there's such thing as subtype in the first place then presumably you see the functions as on a scale different than 0%/100% anyways so type change within temperament would just be a matter of that scale sliding around. (this is mostly directed at @labster)
not that i have any particular qualifications for how type should change personally since my view is better reflected by my first post in this thread. just saying.
How type changes over the time?
Most of the users here are at certain age. And descriptions are good to read, but don't match up with reality. All people are different. With nothing in common with portraits. And they are at some phase of their life. At young, we like to use intuition and creative function a lot. At older age, feelings are important to have normal relationship. When we learn, university usually needs thinking. When we face with existential situation of our life, intuition for answers is important. My topic is to ask how useful it could be, to gather materials on how types change over the time, how to strength your functions in several life periods, how to revelope our weak functions, how to discover your creative function and be at times creative subtype, how sensing types can make their intuition stronger and keep it oldening with their own? There's nothing related to this on the internet. But this is what socionics is useful for. Typing others and building models is interesting. It's the fist level. Typicating is fun. I like to gather personalities. But in real life, socionics could be very useful when some professional can solve your socionics problems. If people are interested,then why not start building up self-helping materials in this site.
Use the Time dependent schrödinger equation to get a time dependence. Good luck! PM me if you get stuck.
I think you can assume all users are at a certain age and that we all experience time speed as one second per second. Basically it's an N-body system.
is like a wet kiss on the cheek and a warm hug by a cute smiling girl.
is the confetti shots on your birthday party with all your friends.
is a way to completely rip apart the face of god and stare directly at the naked universe.
is like over here and then over there and they are all connected and I am on amphetamine.
You wont get an answer. MBTI states that type can change or mature, whereas Socionics implies that type is constant, with type just being a singular, internal force.
That means you're all 16 types and your "I like to gather personalities" makes a lot of sense. But seriously, even when you divide your life that didn't end the cycle yet in childhood, adolescence and adulthood and come to the conclusion you had yourself pegged down as some other completely different type in each one of them, and taking into account one phase didn't end yet, you've got something to look forward to...
Last edited by Absurd; 10-21-2012 at 06:41 PM.
You won't change your type. You can either become a nicer person, meaner, more sullen, variety of things depends on your environment and mental condition or factors outside of type.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ur-type-change
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...nd-Type-Change
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ut-Subtype-can
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...8-Type-Changes
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...es-or-subtypes
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Changing-Type
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ring-your-life
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...es-dont-change
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...logical-Health
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...an-type-change
ONE MORE
Nonsense. People change their types all the time. Joy used to do it weekly.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
Brought to you by socionix.com
I can change type in your dreams.
You probably have.
Quite intentionally too. Now let's go pet some rabbits.
I honestly think I used to be an IEI...
Or maybe I was just a 4.
And I would hide my face in you and you would hide your face in me, and nobody would ever see us any more.
IEI and 4 are the same thing, so might as well.
Etype and Sociotype are not identical, and you can be whatever in each system. You sociotype does not change but your contact functions improve. Check out wikisocion and look for function dichotomies.
Socionics -
the16types.info
Can you change mine?
I dreamed about three houses, each one looked differently from the other and they all were mine. Middle one was the present, left one the past and the one on right the future. I've been in all three of them, and in the left one I've been really young, the present one was me as I have been in couple of days ago, and in the future one, I've been really old.
I could go in from one house to another - pretty neat. I'm still waiting for a dream where I click 'like' and 'constructive' when it comes to my own posts, though.
You know, as if the past me saw what the "present" and future me posted and decided to mark it well, mark it constructive.
Last edited by Absurd; 10-22-2012 at 10:37 AM.
Socionics often says that strong functions can be used in the world to help other people or for creative work. Weak functions are best used in private, if we try to use them in the world it can lead to problems, prolems with identity and painful experiences. It's often good to plan in advance to avoid painful use of weak functions.
Here is an article in English on Socionics and development of functions: http://en.socionics.ru/index.php?opt...248&Itemid=187
If you use machine translation there are more articles on that topic here: http://socionics.ru/ (use the menu on the left)
Duality is often said to be the best way to develope yourself and find yourself. Also to find activities where you can use ego functions. It's usually better to develop ones strong functions because we feel better then, and we can find our area of success.
Have you developed yourself through duality, nowisthetime?
Not in the sense of developing weak functions, but in the sense of feeling balanced, accepted and in tune with myself, yes. It just happens.
I think type can't change. I somehow think other way is illogical. I have no idea why, i just think it has to be so. Those materials were interesting and i had my answer. I think subtype can't change. But how to discover my secondary function? I don't know my type. And don't want to upload a picture. I hope in nearer future, i'll do a topic for that. Also. How to help someone to do the same? I know SEI girl, who is artist. She is introverted and has asperger. I whish to give her Fe-Ni side. She feels herself worthless for some periods,but this could give her some uniqueness and self value.
Hmm, alright then. You developed balance and you accepted yourself - that's enough for me.
Yes, I agree, duality is the best way to find yourself. How does an EII find themselves? Well, a typical undualized EII might be someone who is too removed from external happenings, she/he may be too sunk into their feeling about the slightest unreasonable actions/problems in the world, may, like van Gogh cast strong reactions on what people say or do. But then any type can do this, however, in the EII's case, they don't know and can hardly begin to understand their strengths. What is an EII good for in the real world. She/he may want to have close relationships, but is looking for others to have her in that bond. She wants to exercise her strength with being good with family relations and she certainly wants to be a pillar of ideals, of strength, love, and courage. An EII is not socially expansive, making friends, acquaintances, socializing with people or observing and analyzing them; they are people in their own minds about sense of justice in things, about the care people put into things. An LSE helps EII realize that they are appreciated for thinking, doing small tasks, like cleaning, and not overextending energy on things (my dual cousin says she hates scrubbing the bath shower and I like it -small detail, but worth a lot when you think about it and the other things involved), we are appreciated for giving moral support, for being someone who keeps things to our selves, for having a sense of humor, for being willing participants, for planning events - even though we don't do much work in them for very obvious reasons. An LSE discovers that being someone who is authoritarian and controlling isn't something they need to change about themselves, that yes, some of these things are useful tools that they don't have to subject to the overall social standard, one which is created by other types that are the majority of human societies. That they are accepted, even if others see a flaw. That they are led by love of and our love for a world of better relations, peacefulness and love makes and defines this dual pair; they realize themselves in this union.
An EII calms down, isn't scattered any more, can direct or follow good directions from their dual, an LSE can find themselves in comfort around someone who will listen to them chat away and not get bored. The EII is like a sponge. In the expression of facts, the LSE opens up their feelings to people, if not to the EII directly, if it's a romantic consideration, but to friends, asking if certain things, actions, feelings, make sense, seeking out advice.
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-23-2012 at 05:03 AM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Type never changes. Specific behaviours are not neccesarily type-related.
[| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
Have you read a lot of MBTI? It seems like that. About developing weak functions. I wouldn't worry about that. It's not a technical thing, even though model A is. People develope their weak functions automatically when they have a job. Because at work you have to deal with many different situations, regardless of what is most comfortable for you. That's a part of becoming a socialized person, that most people go through. Also normal social life developes your weaker sides too.
I don't know my strong and weak sides. The problem is that I'm alone and haven't got people to talk with. My job is also private. I have no idea, who I might be? I know that I have to be among people, but not all the time. I need internet to have enough social interaction. Loneliness comes, when I don't have somebody to talk with. I can't be alone for longer than some hours. I can't stand angry and commanding people. ESTp is very hard for me. ISTj also. I can't stand their need to put everyone work or how they need people to always hurry at their work place. I also can't deal with their harsh criticism and use of angry words. I can become angry, but not like they are. I can't push others and control how others should act. I can't stand when people demand me to notice everything around me. I can become up with ideas. But not with something unique. My solutions are always from my experience. I can't tell am I ethical or logical. I take care of others. But I might have logic, which is undeveloped, due to my tragic past. What do others think about my type? At least, because writing is Ti and Te, how many dimensional functions do I use?
Do types change?
I know the general consensus back in the day was always no. Is that still were the "professionals" stand on the matter? How about the Socionics hobbyist community?
Back when I really breathing the fumes here way too much I would have said that people can look like different types when they're focusing on blocks other than they're ego, but idk anymore. These days I'm taking a less black and white approach to most things, and I'm not even sure that everyone even has a Socionics type. It's an interesting concept, and sure, there are a lot of people who seem to fit into various types (hence the formulation of the hypothesis). However, having taken some time off from Socionics, it now seems to me that it may not apply across the board to every single person. It's not an absolute truth.
I guess both things (whether types change and whether every fits perfectly into one type) are really a question of whether Socionics concepts are integral to the very structure of our psyche. What do you think?
Sociotype is nature, not nurture.
Brain chemistry? If so, does that change?
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