Do you believe your type changes during your life?
Do you believe your type changes during your life?
I mostly do not believe that type changes. At the very least, I don't believe that quadra values change.
I haven't experienced it in myself nor others I've know for several years.
So IME, no.
I don't know why you say believe - it's simply true that it does, we aren't speaking about god or religion.
fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza
I say believe, because it's an opinion that I ask.
I hope it's not a confusing word choice...
I also believe in God, The Easter-bunny, and The Tooth Fairy, Fea.
well it is a hypothesis, so "believe" is the right word after all, I would say.
But if your type changes, does your VI change too?
so you change face?
No the hypothesis that I've read is that your type can change without that brain damage.Originally Posted by hkkmr
Sorry for replying serious to this joke. :wink:
Of course it is also possible that certain types seemingly undergo change throughout their lives while still retaining the same type, but that they just exhibit the characteristics of other types. An INxj in childhood may seem to be an ENxp, but as they age, they are provided tools by which they are able to strengthen their primary Ji functions. This would also explain why younger boarders of a rational type are generally found to have a perceiving-subtype.
Well since type behavior is a descriptive theory based upon the behaviors of individuals, which are a a resultant physiological product, it probably could theoretically change if the physiological product changes. But the question then becomes does this mean that type does not change assuming that a person physicality does not change or is affected upon by another physical agent (surgery, cancer, injury etc.). And if such a personality change does occur, should a person's type be described prior to this shift during the assumed period of normalcy or afterwards in their current or final state of being?Originally Posted by hkkmr
Maybe your life changes over your type, so then it appears that your type changes over your life.
Yes, I believe in change too.
When I was a Child and saw my parent split, I used to be more extroverted. I dunno about my change of school (almost every year I changed my school and city).
In fact, I listened Beta music (Jrock, Radiohead, Smashing Pumpkins, Nu metal and A LOT of Hardcore/punk and post-hardcore music) more than now (everday seems to me more soft and light now). Maybe I was an unhealthy SEI, But I believe that I was IEI or EIE.
I was starting to like my changed life, but one day it is seems that I don't like it anymore, and started to seek my own identity... and
Here I'm. Trying to understand How I'm and Why.
I believe your type changes, but I believe changes are very rare and don't deviate much.
Personality != Type
You can become more "extroverted" or "introverted," but that doesn't mean you change from an Ixxx to an Exxx (or vice-versa). Your type has to do with more than how you act on the surface.
On the other hand, assuming that socionics type is "real" and that it's grounded in physiological characteristics -- which is no small assumption -- there's no reason to believe that one's type couldn't theoretically change. At least, none that I can see, but I don't exactly have a degree in neuroscience.
Does anyone have any reason to believe that someone's type couldn't naturally change (other than "I've never seen it happen!")?
delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)
As I said before, type does not seem to change - like, I do not honestly see myself as "an INTj who morphed into ESTj" - that seems rather absurd. I think Rick's Awakening the Ego article on his site is great. Not everyone meets their dual or a situation where they are needed to be "themselves", and I believe people can compensate for this by developing pseudo personality sets and so on. But I have never seen anyone's type change. I have seen major life changes that bring someones type awareness more fully into their consciousness, but honestly
I think a lot of this type changing stuff just stems from people's lack of understanding about socionics types itself, and the limitations of the theory. I thought I had it down -- and I did understand a great deal of it. But in terms of myself, I just based my observations on what I had done in the past, and never understood that I had not been in other situations that needed me to be "who I am". One personal example is being surrounded by caregivers in my upbringing - so until recently I was never needed to be one even though I am one.
SO part of it is that you need to have real experience in multiple areas, quadras, and life settings to really know your own type, and part of it is lack of understanding. The trouble is, you can only really understand the theory after you back it up with real life experience, consistently. IT is like getting a map and studying it, but never walking the land. Until you walk the land, and compare it to the map, can you tell how accurate the map was, and so on and so fourth. Even more so, the map may be accurate, but you may simply just not know what everything means in relation to yourself.
...and so on...
Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.
People don't have to change radically. I mean, for example I'm (or was) a lazy person. But now everything I do in life I've taking it more serious than before. I'm more worried about grade, responsability and even, future and work (who isn't anyway? Truth, too lazy and stupid i was). But I believe that people would 'grow up' and change, little by little a bit of their personality. I don't know if this little change would affect in their type, but I trust in someguy pychologist (I read it long time ago -forgot the name anyway) who says that people define their personality around the 24-25 years old.
Maybe we change by circunstances, but I don't think that everyone born with one personality. Anyway, this last sentences wasn't in discussion.
If I'm feeling motivated and geared toward some sort of goal, I tend to believe type changes. If I feel ineffective in attaining things I value and unable to incur any sort of change, it often follows(unconsciously), that I believe type doesn't change. It's something that I've been debating within my head, and I suppose I will until I'm able to change something SIGNIFICANT about myself. It seems unlikely that type is able to change, as I've noticed very few people whom have had such a change, a change I cannot even come close to verifying.
But I know for certain that there is something whole, something almost undefinable, and incredibly abstract, that lays inside myself and is the center for all of my actions and desires. This self, this essence, is what I think is unchangeable. The closer something is related to one's essence, the harder it will be to change that facet of one's self. Type appears to be one of those things, and, if common Socionic theory and self-held intuitions holds true, is directly related and caused by one's essence, which would in turn, at least imply, that type is unchangeable. But, who knows?
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Oh wait true, Jarno has forgotten to specify something
type changes only into IP IJ EJ EP temperament.
Nobody can really become more extraverted - but you can become costruct-creating and negativist from emotion-creating positivist. And that would probably make you score 50 points less in the E factor of an MBTI test (but wouldn't change your being an IJ or EJ).
I still don't understand what's the problem in accepting this fact. It doesn't change the validity of socionics - in fact, gives the possibility of explaining a whole new set of phenomena that cannot easily be accounted for if we consider type to be fixed.
You mean you become an empowered accepting-ti? :wink:If I'm feeling motivated and geared toward some sort of goal, I tend to believe type changes.
I've been through different stages of my life being a different person. As a kid, I was more of a positivst than now, but i also was tactics over strategy. maybe I was an ESFj? I remember getting along greatly with this ISFp guy. Now we get along decently but there isn't that sinchronicity. The during adolescence I isolated myself for 2 years, except for going to school I did nothing except exercising and studying. I didn't feel bad at all. I was always extremely calm, but there wasn't really many thoughts in my head. I also became very close friends with an ENFp-Fi girl. Or maybe ENFj-Ni.
I came out of it as a very Te, or very Ti, depending on whether you see me as EP or EJ. I also would rarely give compliments, but I gave away money freely. Now I have gone back to being more talkative and bothersom. Those changes are very obvious to me and the change during adolescence was striking for most people that knew me. I can't believe I've remained the same all the way though.
What about it being backwards? That is, changes in type determine the quadras, life settings, and experiences you tend to partake in. The direction of causality is not so obvious.SO part of it is that you need to have real experience in multiple areas, quadras, and life settings to really know your own type, and part of it is lack of understanding.
fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza
Yeah, I tend to agree. Because every time people present evidence that "type changes", the evidence is always "I used to act differently than I do now". This evidence is weak. Oh, it's strong in that person's life. But in the grand scheme of things, it is weak. And it changes the meaning of type. I guess if type changes, then the 16 types are just types that anyone can assume. So today I'm an INFj, tomorrow I'm an ESTp. To me, that completely dilutes the whole thing. Then there is no constant, except maybe "there are 16 different personalities people can choose from" or something like that. And if that's the case, who cares? What is the point of Socionics?I think a lot of this type changing stuff just stems from people's lack of understanding about socionics types itself, and the limitations of the theory.
Intertype relations are then no good, because one day your dual might really be your dual, and tomorrow, she's your conflict and that's that. Next year, she's your supervisor. Intertype relations aren't really explaining anything anymore. Could just as easily be a bad mood than intertype relations. No more Quadras either, not if today I'm Gamma and tomorrow I'm Alpha. This week I'm comfortable around my little group of friends, next month I'm jumping out of my skin and completely ill at ease. Today, you and I mirror one another. In six months, we've become duals. Wait, that sounds nice actually. And it also sounds a bit like a psychotic break. How could anyone tell the difference? Maybe there are no types. Maybe it's all just mood.
I fully agree with you.Originally Posted by Danielle
However, for the record, what FDG and others mean with "type change" is not about shifting from INFj to ESTp overnight.
But I personally don't believe type changes. Your personality may change, yes, in the sense of a very quiet person becoming more talkative and the like. But that's not type change.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I don't have an opinion one way or another about whether type changes or not.
I do believe, however, that outside perceptions of a person's type can change. A person's behavior/focus can change. And that a person can develop awareness and/or skills involving different functions in order to compensate or enhance one's natural tendencies.
As a young girl, I had to develop a hyper-awareness of Fe from my SeFi father. I also had to do a lot of anticipation of when his moods would suddenly switch, and which behaviors might be the consequence. Whether I was successful or not doesn't matter. It was unnatural for me, and was a very stressful time in my life. It also left me with an unnatural and painful awareness of Fe. Yet, even then I preferred Fi/Te over Ti/Fe.
I've always preferred Ne over Se, but I've learned that there are times when my best chances of survival is a focus on Se. But even then, it's NeFi primary, with Se (or whatever function I'm focusing on) being a tertiary type thing.
Many people have accused me of being NeTi…despite my attempts to tell them that no, any Ti you see is an illusion done by attempting to Te my NeFi for the purpose at hand.
I agree, it's not normal for an NeFi to develop self awareness of their thinking processes. But considering the actions I had to take to overcome certain emotional/mood disorders, it makes sense to those who know me. And those who know me are also aware of the negative consequences to my natural self from those actions I had to take.
So, while outside perceptions of my type may change depending on the "perceiver", my external behavior, and the situation…..Through them all underlies my NeFi approach.
Can that natural approach change into developing a different natural approach?
I have no idea. But I think it would be harder to develop a different natural approach than it would be to alter lifelong habits.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
You can't think of any reasons why an NeFi might find it offensive to be called an NeTi?Originally Posted by Thunder
or why an NeFi might find it offensive to be told that surely they have an Fi polr??
or why an NeFi might find it offensive to be told that their polr should, in fact, be their creative??
And as a reminder:
How would a musician who started out with classes and practices a lot feel if someone dismissed their efforts and years of work with the comment "oh, you're so good at music just because you were born with the talent"?
How do you think an NeFi would feel if s/he studies, puts a lot of work into something, often has people check over hir work to see if it makes any sense, has a history of being put down and laughed at due to hir poor logic abilities...and then being told that all this should be more natural to hir....that it should be an inborn trait. ?
Yes, I consider it an accusation. It accuses me of being flat out stupid and quite possibly retarded. It accuses me of being a "Phaedrus" that writes so much misleading information into this forum. It accuses me of having wasted not only my time and efforts, but the time of anyone on this forum who has ever read anything I've written. It accuses me of not having a single clue about socionics. It diminishes my efforts, it diminishes my thoughts, it diminishes my experiences, it diminishes my self-expressions...in essence, it diminishes ME. It accuses me of not being ME.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
For starters, it has to do with how an NFp would process this theory known as socionics. NiFe does it a little differently than NeFi, but both of them look to see how it applies to their own lives, their own observations, their own experiences, etc. You know...abstract base personalized creative, implicit all around?? NiFe seem to focus more on the intertype relations how that fits in on a personal note. (abstract connections personalizing the concepts). NeFi focuses more on either the "types" or the "functions" and personalizes the connections...you know...Fi.Originally Posted by Thunder
So no, it's not just having a type wrong. It includes all of my understandings of socionics, and thus includes everything I've ever written about socionics.
You're focusing only on what other people think of me...and ignoring the personalized connections....taking the person out of personality so to say. You're ignoring the issues I run into, the things I have to work around, the efforts I make, etc.
I may not lose credibility in YOUR eyes....but not only do I lose credibility in MY eyes...but it means that I really am stupid or retarded because I just can't seem to NeTi stuff.
As for other people, them changing their own types could be due to any number of factors, the vast majority of which I'll never be aware of. Who am I to judge them?
The only people I had major issues with their self-typings have been Phaedrus, Joy (particularly due to her constant changing and flexibility in fitting herself into the type of the moment), Kristiina at one point (but no longer...and I'm disappointed in myself regarding my attitude towards her at that time). I may internally question someone's typing of themselves..I may see them as some other type than they see themselves...but I still look to see how the type they claim could do the things they do, or have the motivations they have, or the perceptions they have, or what are they moving towards or away from by doing whatever, etc etc. I admit to not being able to do that with Phaedrus. And I've given up trying to understand Joy. She's just Joy to me.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
And that's exactly the point. If you "aren't your type", you don't have confidence in yourself. You could theoretically act as a different type, but why would you? Certainly those inward decisions to act your type can be correlated with chemical reactions in the brain, even if we do not yet have the means to affirm this.Originally Posted by Kioshi
I can't help but think that you would be a completely different person if you *geniuinely* changed type. At the very least, nothing you previously believed would make sense.
I have felt pressure to change type on more than one occasion in life. It's not a positive or enjoyable feeling. It's like being forced to admit you had been wrong your entire life and only just began to 'get it'... It seems to me that if it is possible to actually make the shift it would strictly happen under pressure and not at the volition of the person in question, nor would the person initially feel good about the change occuring. Hence, it would not happen unless such a change was really necessary to preserve the health of the individual.
Mostly I 'feel like' changing type when I am in environments where the 'positivism' element dominates, eg. people doing their own, arbitrarily chosen things, having personal hobbies and interests, revelling in being unique and 'special'. Negativism, from what I can tell, is about forgoing such qualities in favor of more elementary pursuits that are of a more lasting value.
Good point. The need for a consistently structured memory could well be the reason why we have types. I'm making notes.I can't help but think that you would be a completely different person if you *geniuinely* changed type. At the very least, nothing you previously believed would make sense.
what about when you ask a room of people who in the room are non-conformists...and one guy raises his hand..then another guy, then a couple of girls, then a handful of other people until all but one person has their hand raised.?Originally Posted by hkkmr
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
I think its easy for some thinkers to think its possible for them to be feelers. They perhaps think that if they can socialise, smile more, feel peoples emotions more then they can get more Fe/Fi.
Its starkly obvious to me as a feeler that i cant really obtain better thinking functions. Sure i can hone my brain to be a little better at logic, mathematics etc but im really just working within the boundaries of what my functions will allow.
So at the moment im a little quiet and i dont go out much. That doesn't make me an Introvert. That makes me an Extravert who has travelled off the garden path.
I think Lokis quote is perfect, its your life and mood changes that make it appear like you can change.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
Nope.Originally Posted by Jarno
Well I am back. How s everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.
If type couldn't change then there would be no such thing as Dissociative identity disorder. Same brain, different types.
Personality type and psychological type are not the same thing.
Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.
I don't think there is any example (correct me if I'm wrong) of a person that was born with DID. And why can't we explain the other personalities by saying that they are "deviations", "roles" played by the person's inborn type? Or do you really think that the person's whole brain structure changes every time there is a shift of personality?Originally Posted by snegledmaca
I see this as evidence of a complete change of IM.
Yes, and how many people who think their types have changed do you think actually have DID?
So basically you say the cohesive forces that hold up the type within our brain have failed in this cases but they normally don't?Originally Posted by Carla
And what a splendid counter argument it is. Can you explain how it is possible to generate two diametrically opposite personalities with the same IM? I think it's quite necessary that there be at least two separate IM-s for those types of personalities.Originally Posted by Jarno
Uhm... none unless they have DID?Originally Posted by Ezra
Doesn't mean an overtaking of type, just a momentary possession by the shadow or the anima. Of course, one would have little ability to understand one's previous reasoning under a type change, therefore a change in type would entail a total change in personality. Your type would not be changing; rather, YOU would be changing in response to the change of your type.
The question to ask is not whether type changes as a function of the brain (it obviously can if the brain's structure allows for it), but under what conditions it does given the innate potential thereto.
I should say that the prevalence numbers mentioned in this article are very suspect.
What does it have to do with the point?Originally Posted by Ezra
the title of this topic suggests that types can change. that's why i have a problem with it.
a type won't change unless some severe mental illness or accident. did is a severe mental illness.
I agree that type change is hard and unlikely (I don't think type changes during a person's lifetime) but I just wanted to show that it's not impossible.Originally Posted by Jarno