I think I could be LSE...

[Joy]

I had myself convinced that types don't exist for a while there, but somehow here I am asking this question now, even though I feel that who I am these days is FAR different from who I was back when I was very active in this community. Perhaps only those who have me on Facebook or know me irl would actually have some of idea of what I'm like now that I'm happily settled down. In any case, there was a thread on the topic a while back if you're interested, but I'd rather have your impressions than your analysis.

[Scapegrace]

Jesus gives everyone a type.

[Capitalist Pig]

Depends. How good are you at working with your hands?

[Kim]

I don't know, but I have a hard time seeing an LSE flitting around in their type search so much (or even being that interested in the whole process).

I have no great argument to back this up at this point, but since you asked about impressions, I am actually thinking ILE is much more likely than LSE. But then I have changed my mind about your type quite a bit in the past. ExTx seems very likely, at least.

[Narc]

ENTp

[blackburry]

I voted no.. I've always kind of thought ESE..


so...maybe LSE..

I've barely interacted with you though, so grain of salt.

[ashlesha]

i'm more comfortable seeing you as lse than others like absurd. i'm crap at trying to piece together coherent logical arguments about peoples types but intuitively it fits perfectly into place for me. to be fair we haven't really talked so i can't say i really know you but my impression of you is somebody who is direct and no-bullshit, wysiwyg, kind of socially clumsy but wanting to put your best foot forward not really to look cool but for utilitarian purposes, concerned with problem solving and getting at the truth in a hands-on, empirical kind of way. i wasn't here when you posted more often so i can't really speak about the dynamics b/w you and others here except to say ive been kind of confused about some of the hostility towards you and i get the impression we would get along fine.

[Joy]

joy i think you master binary logic seeing the way you have arranged the options. it's marvelous but at this point i cannot attribute it to a function.

I definitely structure information. I used to think this was a Ti thing, but I've been told it's a xTxj thing.

Depends. How good are you at working with your hands?

Are you only sort of kidding? I'll answer regardless.

I'm better with my hands than most people, but I'm not especially good. I'd say maybe in the 60th or 70th percentile. I have no talent for art or music at all, though I'm not sure if that counts as "working with your hands".

I don't know, but I have a hard time seeing an LSE flitting around in their type search so much (or even being that interested in the whole process).

I have no great argument to back this up at this point, but since you asked about impressions, I am actually thinking ILE is much more likely than LSE. But then I have changed my mind about your type quite a bit in the past. ExTx seems very likely, at least.

It's possible. Sometimes I think it makes sense, but other times I think an ILE wouldn't take everything so literally like I do and would be more adept at this kind of theoretical stuff. I also have a streak of perfectionism that I'm not sure makes sense for ILE's.

1. Typically they can be so engaged in process, they can develop a poor understanding of their personal emotions & themselves.

That's me.

2. For something they don't take very seriously (as Joy has shown not to take this *that* seriously), they like to debate it in an Ne-seeking way, their hidden agenda, seeking other possibilities for something that isn't concrete.

Makes sense.

3. Many people in my first 2 years said that Joy and I seem similar - and I've changed multiple times / considered different possibilities as well. Attack that credibility however you'd like, but it's a possibility. Whether you believe I'm ESE or LSE, constantly mentioning something unimportant over time may be attributed to Si-creative & Ni POLR.

Wouldn't know.

4. I believe Joy is 3w2 as well, which only further compounds the problem - a tendency to view one's self for your achievements, a fear of being average like everyone else (and wanting to settle into a single type), a lack of personal awareness of your own feelings and identity, etc.

That I'm not so sure about. First of all, I'm not really even sure I like Enneagram all that much. It's like you have to pick your neuroses. In any case, I briefly considered 3, but overall don't like it. And I always hated the descriptions of 2 (though I always hated the idea of being LSE as well so who knows). Lately I feel like 9w1 or 1w9 makes sense for me, but this certainly hasn't always been the case. I feel like I've been a bit of 1, 3, 7, 8, and 9 to varying degrees over time. Oh, and I no longer care about being average.

5. She's posted over 23,000 posts on this forum and 'is still unsure' of her type. Are you sure she can't figure it out, or could you consider part of her doesn't want it to be figured out & settled?

It's not that. It's that I've changed so much so many times over the years that I don't know what to consider in determining my type. I also feel that I could change dramatically again with little to no warning. Right now I'm actually pretty relaxed and inactive most of the time. I just enjoy hanging out with my baby most of the day. I may get super entrepreneurial in the near future though as I'm starting a business. Right now the only reason I'm doing it is so I can do what I want to do on my own terms and can set my own schedule. I want to spend most of my time with my baby.

Notice the abundance of ESTjs on the forum, right?

I always assumed that most of them would rather spend their time on things that are more concrete and productive. There's little to nothing productive about Socionics.

This is pure Se-Demonstrative. Your 8th function. You find it humorous, your own bias for your intentions - even using that to joke about the credibility of your statements, found facts, and conclusions, relating back to Te & Si. I've done this before as well. This is just further evidence of ESXj, Alpha or Delta.

I figure the ease with which I accept that I've been wrong or could be wrong about something is more about being yielding > obstinate.

She says she wants objective, physical proof. This is strongly Te & Si valuing. Most ILEs would be happy to go along with pure theory. And they would be much more adept at applying a theory and picking / determining a type.

Maybe, but then I think it wouldn't be such a challenge for an LSE to keep her house clean though, and then I feel like I just suck all around.

I want to address this part separately, because it seems Ne-valuing. In this thread, Joy, why do you post links to your previous thought patterns / previous threads? It seems Ne-valuing in that you want to document (Si-valuing) the changes over time, and hoping someone else will piece together the puzzle as to how your thought process has changed, and tell you who you really are. (shows Ne-valuing, but weak Ne yourself) I believe all of this further points to LSE.

I wanted to make the information easily available without having to repeat myself or cluttering my initial post. Perhaps there was some hope that someone would glean an insight.

I support your type consideration of LSE. Whether you have enough strength yet in your self-understanding to actually settle on that is up to you.

The issue is that I historically haven't been able to predict medium or long range changes to my desires, feelings, and behaviors. Is that weak Ni and Fi?

[Joy]

i'm more comfortable seeing you as lse than others like absurd. i'm crap at trying to piece together coherent logical arguments about peoples types but intuitively it fits perfectly into place for me. to be fair we haven't really talked so i can't say i really know you but my impression of you is somebody who is direct and no-bullshit, wysiwyg, kind of socially clumsy but wanting to put your best foot forward not really to look cool but for utilitarian purposes, concerned with problem solving and getting at the truth in a hands-on, empirical kind of way. i wasn't here when you posted more often so i can't really speak about the dynamics b/w you and others here except to say ive been kind of confused about some of the hostility towards you and i get the impression we would get along fine.

(:

I think you read me well. I'm very sincere and try to put my best foot forward because kindness and integrity are important to me... and I'm most definitely not cool, lol.

[Joy]

Oh yes, and I'm a poor judge of how long something is taking or will take me. I have a problem with chronic tardiness which I can only resolve by attempting to be 15 to 30 minutes early where ever I go. And I feel like I value all of the information elements except Ni (because I don't really know what it even is as everything that I used to think was Ni has turned out to be other things).

[consentingadult]

You're not LSE, but based on some videos you posted long, long ago, I would say you are getting close ;-)

Oh yes, and I'm a poor judge of how long something is taking or will take me. I have a problem with chronic tardiness which I can only resolve by attempting to be 15 to 30 minutes early where ever I go. And I feel like I value all of the information elements except Ni (because I don't really know what it even is as everything that I used to think was Ni has turned out to be other things).

^ this is not Ni-PoLR. Ni-PoLR is a blind spot for the dynamics of events, for how things change over time, not so much a lack of sense of time or timing. This blind spot manifests itself most clearly in how ESEs and LSEs use Mobilizing Ne: they try to come to an understanding of the essences of phenomena (which is static in nature), while disregarding how these phenomena might have been affected by change:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-and-polr.html

[Joy]

You're not LSE, but based on some videos you posted long, long ago, I would say you are getting close ;-)

I don't know which videos you're referring to, whether I was sober in them, or what type you think I am. If you've told me before, I'm sorry. I don't remember.

^ this is not Ni-PoLR.

I wasn't suggesting that it was. I was just adding more information. I probably should have separated the thing about timing from the rest of it better. I was in a hurry to finish posting and leave.

I used to think it was an EP temperament thing. Now I don't know what it is.

Ni-PoLR is a blind spot for the dynamics of events, for how things change over time, not so much a lack of sense of time or timing.

I've heard this stated both ways. Expat, who is mentioned in that blog you posted a link to, said that he felt that there is something about having a good sense of time to Ni. I've seen it in descriptions, too. Whether it's correct or not I don't know.

This blind spot manifests itself most clearly in how ESEs and LSEs use Mobilizing Ne: they try to come to an understanding of the essences of phenomena (which is static in nature), while disregarding how these phenomena might have been affected by change:

That seems a pretty basic thing to understand... Even the example in the blog seems like it should be simple to understand. Obviously things change over time. Maybe I'm missing the point.

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-and-polr.html

I disagree that the 6th function is processed consciously while the 4th function is not.

[Satan]

Oh yes, and I'm a poor judge of how long something is taking or will take me. I have a problem with chronic tardiness which I can only resolve by attempting to be 15 to 30 minutes early where ever I go. And I feel like I value all of the information elements except Ni (because I don't really know what it even is as everything that I used to think was Ni has turned out to be other things).

you could be entp. you're annoying like vero.

[Satan]

joy i think you master binary logic seeing the way you have arranged the options. it's marvelous but at this point i cannot attribute it to a function. my head is so cloudy these days ;< i'm sure it's bcuz of the food.even the mad cow disease started here god save our souls

check for food allergies.

[consentingadult]

I don't know which videos you're referring to, whether I was sober in them, or what type you think I am. If you've told me before, I'm sorry. I don't remember.



I wasn't suggesting that it was. I was just adding more information. I probably should have separated the thing about timing from the rest of it better. I was in a hurry to finish posting and leave.

I used to think it was an EP temperament thing. Now I don't know what it is.



I've heard this stated both ways. Expat, who is mentioned in that blog you posted a link to, said that he felt that there is something about having a good sense of time to Ni. I've seen it in descriptions, too. Whether it's correct or not I don't know.



That seems a pretty basic thing to understand... Even the example in the blog seems like it should be simple to understand. Obviously things change over time. Maybe I'm missing the point.



I disagree that the 6th function is processed consciously while the 4th function is not.

Good to see you have figured out all the answers. It should be no problem for you to figure out your own type as well.

[Joy]

I definitely don't have all of the answers! And I apologize if I was being rude.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

More than likely, yes.

I don't like to dwell on natural conflicts I have with people [and the following criticisms aren't coming from a place of ill-intent] but let's just be honest. Our internal worlds don't really mesh well at all, you take me hyperliterally in an annoying way that I don't like, and there are times I wanted to push you down a flight of stairs. I have lightened up about you recently but over-all I think we had conflicting relations on the forum, and it would explain the tension Gilly had with you as well.

I never thought you were that rude, turning the conflict into rude vs. nice is superficial I think. Just your communication style seems a lot different than Beta.

But in a non socionics sense you don't bother me so much anymore and I feel like I'm better able to empathisize... but socionically speaking, I do feel like we're conflictors. =)

[Joy]

you take me hyperliterally

Yes, sometimes I get this complaint from people who know me in person, too. I don't think I'm nearly as bad in person as I am online, too.

turning the conflict into rude vs. nice is superficial I think.

I definitely agree, but in this case I fear I was rude to consentingadult.

[Joy]

Whoa, I just had this random memory from a long time ago. There used to be this member here that said she was IEI, and she was on a mission to prove that I was LSE because I reminded her so much of her best friend. I called her the crazy corn lady. I don't remember her actual username other than that it made some reference to maize.

[ashlesha]

i was thinking how many people here type you ese and why that could be cuz i don't see fe. but maybe all this searching could be a manifestation of ti suggestive?

[consentingadult]

I didn't think you were rude to @consentingadult. It seems you just gave answers to consentingadult, and they were offended that they were in an Si-way. The reference to your type 'getting closer' by picking LSE actually seemed somewhat Ni-valuing for consentingadult. I don't have much interaction experience with them to say what type they are. But I also don't know what type they think you are, and I wish they'd just say it.

Consentingadult, what type do you think Joy is?

SLI, but that's only based on videos I saw of her long long time ago. BTW, I was not offended by her reply, neither did I consider it rude. I considered it narrow-minded.

[Joy]

i was thinking how many people here type you ese and why that could be cuz i don't see fe.

That's what I keep thinking as well. "Where's the Fe?"

but maybe all this searching could be a manifestation of ti suggestive?

It's certainly not the Ti of Socionics that I'm lacking an understanding of though. Understanding how it looks irl and (much more so) understanding myself are the issues.

SLI, but that's only based on videos I saw of her long long time ago. BTW, I was not offended by her reply, neither did I consider it rude. I considered it narrow-minded.

I've been wondering if SLI makes sense, actually. In some ways it really would, but whenever I consider it I end up thinking that SLI's probably keep to themselves much more than I do.

One thing I'm not sure about with LSE is hostile confrontation. I have this mental imagine of LSE's being one of the more aggressively confrontational types, though that could be in large part because I typed my son's father as LSE for so long.

I'm certainly not afraid of confrontation, but I much prefer to communicate calmly than to get in someone's face, so to speak. When someone gets confrontational with me, I usually remain calm and listen to see if a solution can be found. I try to be empathetic and to appeal to their sense of reason and fairplay. If that doesn't work, I calmly remove myself from the situation or tell them what I'm going to do if they don't knock it off.

When I do lose my temper, it's usually a very short outburst that I apologize for almost immediately. And on those rare occasions when I do yell at someone as a form of communication, it's because that person won't stop unless I do.

As for the 4th function vs. the 6th...

The way I understand it, the 4th function is an area we're painfully aware that we suck at. Usually we just ignore it, but when we make an effort we go way overboard with it and don't do it properly. Criticism in this area stings more than any other.

The 6th function is unconscious, but we wish we were good at it. We like compliments in it and are confused by criticisms of it. I think we're more likely to make an ass out of ourselves with our 4th function than 6th.

At least this is what I remember of model A after not looking at it for years.

[consentingadult]

That's what I keep thinking as well. "Where's the Fe?"



It's certainly not the Ti of Socionics that I'm lacking an understanding of though. Understanding how it looks irl and (much more so) understanding myself are the issues.



I've been wondering if SLI makes sense, actually. In some ways it really would, but whenever I consider it I end up thinking that SLI's probably keep to themselves much more than I do.

One thing I'm not sure about with LSE is hostile confrontation. I have this mental imagine of LSE's being one of the more aggressively confrontational types, though that could be in large part because I typed my son's father as LSE for so long.

I'm certainly not afraid of confrontation, but I much prefer to communicate calmly than to get in someone's face, so to speak. When someone gets confrontational with me, I usually remain calm and listen to see if a solution can be found. I try to be empathetic and to appeal to their sense of reason and fairplay. If that doesn't work, I calmly remove myself from the situation or tell them what I'm going to do if they don't knock it off.

When I do lose my temper, it's usually a very short outburst that I apologize for almost immediately. And on those rare occasions when I do yell at someone as a form of communication, it's because that person won't stop unless I do.

As for the 4th function vs. the 6th...

The way I understand it, the 4th function is an area we're painfully aware that we suck at. Usually we just ignore it, but when we make an effort we go way overboard with it and don't do it properly. Criticism in this area stings more than any other.

The 6th function is unconscious, but we wish we were good at it. We like compliments in it and are confused by criticisms of it. I think we're more likely to make an ass out of ourselves with our 4th function than 6th.

At least this is what I remember of model A after not looking at it for years.

My understanding is quite the reverse: we are not aware we suck at the fourth function, which is why we get pissed off when other people point it out to us. And the mobile function, we suck at it, but still we're inclined to use it a lot, even though its use is unconscious.

Anyway, it's not all that important; you and I should get together and make wild, passionate love to each other! ;-)

[Joy]

O.o

[consentingadult]

O.o

No really, I'm dead serious!

[Joy]

Aside from the fact that I don't know you at all, the only people I'm allowed sex with besides my boyfriend are females.

[consentingadult]

Aside from the fact that I don't know you at all, the only people I'm allowed sex with besides my boyfriend are females.

That's too bad for the both of us. It was going to prove beyond any doubt that you are SLI! I wasn't talking about sex by the way, but about making love. That's a BIG difference!

[Joy]

This actually brings up a subject that I definitely feel is in large part type related (it's partially experience related too, of course). I know I've written about this before, but now I feel I can do it without the anger or angst that used to accompany the subject. Consentingadult, this isn't about you in particular, just this subject in general. You just reminded me of something that I think could help with determining my type.

I generally feel extremely uncomfortable and put on the spot when guys hit on me (or whatever you want to call it). Even overt flirting (or chronic subtle flirting) would make me feel that way because I would feel compelled to respond in such a way that they have some idea if I'm interested in them.

Sometimes I'd feel resentful that I'd been put in such an uncomfortable position (and sometimes that I might be losing a friend or straining a work relationship) and just ignore them or pretend that I don't understand what they're trying to say/ask. Sometimes I'd act like I thought they were just joking around with me. A couple times I actually told guys that I didn't believe them, lol. Even when I did that though I'd still feel that I "should" give them an answer of some sort; I just didn't want to. If I feel I've already given a clear answer, I'm much less likely to respond, of course.

I'm trying not to make this post too long, so I'll just try to sum it up by saying that when someone expresses interest and I'm not interested (which is 99% of the time), I generally feel that I must let them know that I'm not interested in a way that is impossible to misinterpret yet doesn't hurt their feelings AND allows us both to feel at ease, not awkward or embarrassed. This is not easy!!!

This is why I've generally preferred to be the initiator and pursuer. The whole thing was still awkward and somewhat difficult (I'd usually get drunk to make it easier), but it least it was happening on my terms. I could prepare what I wanted to say and do in advance instead of being put on the spot. I've also had time to consider IF I'm even interested. It's not something I just automatically know (unless the answer is definitely no). The fact that I'm usually in a relationship makes that part easier.

There have been times where I'd be stressed out about how to handle a situation like this without even being sure that I wasn't just reading too much into things. Usually it would turn out that I should have taken my uneasiness as a sign that I'd eventually be in this position.

I've found occasionally though that some people have a knack for communicating their interest to me without making me feel put on the spot. They'd be open, but not aggressive, persistent, or pushy. They weren't asking me for a response, just putting their position out there for me to know. And they'd do it in a somewhat light or joking manner which put me more at ease. I'd still feel a bit stressed about how to respond, but it'd be in a way that wouldn't make me as anxious/frustrated.

Also noteworthy are the people I've known who are fun flirts, people who do it so naturally that I automatically feel at ease and can even flirt back. I do not take their flirting seriously though, and the ease with which they flirt makes me think they flirt often and with most people, and therefore I'm not sure if they're trustworthy. Even if they didn't cheat in a relationship, I'd still be somewhat jealous with them flirting with others.

[Slacker]

LOL you're thinking of Maisy or something. I remember that.

I think you're more likely to be LSE than SLE anyway.

[Joy]

Oh yeah! @crazymaisy right?

[Lotus]

Aren't most people uncomfortable with people hitting on them?

[Joy]

Aren't most people uncomfortable with people hitting on them?

Huh... It always looked to me like most other people had an easier time dealing with it, and that many actually liked it. I should make a poll.

[Lotus]

Eh I guess it depends on how often and who by. I'm just being cynical cause I'm all hurt and shit

[Joy]

Yeah, how often and by who is probably significant.

[consentingadult]

This actually brings up a subject that I definitely feel is in large part type related (it's partially experience related too, of course). I know I've written about this before, but now I feel I can do it without the anger or angst that used to accompany the subject. Consentingadult, this isn't about you in particular, just this subject in general. You just reminded me of something that I think could help with determining my type.

I generally feel extremely uncomfortable and put on the spot when guys hit on me (or whatever you want to call it). Even overt flirting (or chronic subtle flirting) would make me feel that way because I would feel compelled to respond in such a way that they have some idea if I'm interested in them.

Sometimes I'd feel resentful that I'd been put in such an uncomfortable position (and sometimes that I might be losing a friend or straining a work relationship) and just ignore them or pretend that I don't understand what they're trying to say/ask. Sometimes I'd act like I thought they were just joking around with me. A couple times I actually told guys that I didn't believe them, lol. Even when I did that though I'd still feel that I "should" give them an answer of some sort; I just didn't want to. If I feel I've already given a clear answer, I'm much less likely to respond, of course.

I'm trying not to make this post too long, so I'll just try to sum it up by saying that when someone expresses interest and I'm not interested (which is 99% of the time), I generally feel that I must let them know that I'm not interested in a way that is impossible to misinterpret yet doesn't hurt their feelings AND allows us both to feel at ease, not awkward or embarrassed. This is not easy!!!

This is why I've generally preferred to be the initiator and pursuer. The whole thing was still awkward and somewhat difficult (I'd usually get drunk to make it easier), but it least it was happening on my terms. I could prepare what I wanted to say and do in advance instead of being put on the spot. I've also had time to consider IF I'm even interested. It's not something I just automatically know (unless the answer is definitely no). The fact that I'm usually in a relationship makes that part easier.

There have been times where I'd be stressed out about how to handle a situation like this without even being sure that I wasn't just reading too much into things. Usually it would turn out that I should have taken my uneasiness as a sign that I'd eventually be in this position.

I've found occasionally though that some people have a knack for communicating their interest to me without making me feel put on the spot. They'd be open, but not aggressive, persistent, or pushy. They weren't asking me for a response, just putting their position out there for me to know. And they'd do it in a somewhat light or joking manner which put me more at ease. I'd still feel a bit stressed about how to respond, but it'd be in a way that wouldn't make me as anxious/frustrated.

Also noteworthy are the people I've known who are fun flirts, people who do it so naturally that I automatically feel at ease and can even flirt back. I do not take their flirting seriously though, and the ease with which they flirt makes me think they flirt often and with most people, and therefore I'm not sure if they're trustworthy. Even if they didn't cheat in a relationship, I'd still be somewhat jealous with them flirting with others.

You see, you're already opening up to me! ;-)

[Joy]

[Joy]

Another thing that I think is probably type related is that I'm unable to be random. Most of the people I know can pull all sorts of random humorous things out of their ass like nothing, but if I try to think of something so I can play along I just draw a blank. I also have a hard time naming things... My screen name here is a prime example of my lack of creativity in naming.

[consentingadult]

How many more examples of your own writings do you need to recognize the typical SLI down-to-earthness?

Anyway, I just saw the photo on your profile page, it instantly reminded of the young woman I described in this blog post:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-creative.html

[Joy]

"Enjoy it nicely!" LOL

Do Fe PoLR types recognize each other's Fe follies and find them amusing yet completely non-offensive?

I do think SLI is a possibility, though clearly I'd be an unusual specimen of an SLI (I feel I'd be an unusual specimen of any type though). It's a HELL of a lot more likely than I'm SLI than ESE though. Seriously, what the heck people. I'm genuinely confused about where people are seeing all of this Fe.

[Joy]

Is this the video you're talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycd0vM_jzgQ