How to systemically V.I. Deltas

[Sandoval]

From my experience with Delta types, I often find that their appearance is composed of two elements: curious/silly eyes and a pinched mouth. I'll get more into this in a bit.

The specific images above are of TeSi and SiTe types, which are the more grounded half of this quadrant. I've heard people describe high-Si/Te Deltas as very 'adult-like' and bureaucratic, and this precisely fits my observation too.

If we actually look at politics, news anchors, trivia games, etc -- we find this same appearance continually:



For the Delta types, like the Alpha types, the eyes are not "intense" or "hypnotic" like those of the Betas. Instead, their eyes look more silly, naive and a little dazed. It's hard to describe it in words, but here is an example of the Ne/Si eye appearance:



They look a bit alert, wide, yet somewhat scattered/unfocused. The area around the eye is not pulled sharply like the eyes of Ni/Se. For the Ni/Se types, the eyes themselves look more focused, and the area around the eyes is not at all relaxed, but instead very stretched and sharp. I believe this is due to the two having different perceptive focus. The more casual disposition of Ne toward details in the environment gives it a more free-reigning quality. They are also more prone to toggle about and glance at different areas. The more sensational and direct disposition of Se toward the environment gives it a more intense and well connected and locked-on to specific qualities.

~~~

Now, the mouth of the Delta types is like the mouth of the Gamma types: Te/Fi. It has that pinched quality near the nose, and is prone to make a lot of asymmetrical facial expressions when talking.

Have any of you seen a similar trend with Deltas?

[Suz]

@Sandoval, by "pinched" nose, do u mean it seems like they are scrunching up their nose a little?

[Sandoval]

@Sandoval, by "pinched" nose, do u mean it seems like they are scrunching up their nose a little?

Yeah, it's like the muscles which go vertically up past the nose are in a constant state of micro-contraction. These:



I looked into it and found that those muscles are associated with strong emotions, usually grief or used when deeply weeping. To use a metaphor, it's the ones you contract when you're on the edge of tears and holding back. It was odd to me that I found some people constantly contract these unconsciously.

It's well know that smirks/grimmaces that raise up the side of one nostril are associated with 'contempt', smugness or moral superiority. I wondered if Fi could cause signals of contempt and (due to how it's a very private ethical process) whether it could cause a lot of these signals. Sure enough, nearly all the Fi users I've known (who have very private beliefs, opinions and stand by them) do this sort of "micro-snarling" ...or that's how I call it. It looks something like this (each of these frames can be just a few miliseconds apart):

Their upper lip is prone to rise up toward their nose at unexpected times. There's far less coordination of the mouth than with Fe. It seems like all the muscles around the nose, which go vertically, are continually contracting.

Here's a real-life example of it with Canada's young and successful TeSi prime minister:







Asymmetrical snarling + pinched nose area

(wow this post turned out long, sorry. i hope this helps answer the question!)

[darya]

Holy heebie - jeebies.

[Sandoval]

@Person - I've no idea. lol. I can't do it.

But as promised, I'd like to show you the other half of this. The above images are of TeSi and SiTe, but these are the others:

So to give a contrasted example, we have here an NeFi with heavy reliance on Ne:



Another NeFi with heavy Ne can be seen in:



We can see his asymmetrical smiles in timestamps like:



We also see those distinct eyes, which are a bit unfocused/blank while also curious and animated. Less so in Phil's video, because he's staging the vid, but in Kristen's video we see her eyes toggle about (up, down, left, right) continually. This is the scattered quality of Ne's eyes -- compared to the more linear quality of Ni/Se eyes.

[wacey]

You may not he aware but Justin's Father, former prime minister Pierre Trudeau spoke out of the side of his mouth as well.

[Suz]

Yeah, it's like the muscles which go vertically up past the nose are in a constant state of micro-contraction. These:



I looked into it and found that those muscles are associated with strong emotions, usually grief or used when deeply weeping. To use a metaphor, it's the ones you contract when you're on the edge of tears and holding back. It was odd to me that I found some people constantly contract these unconsciously.

It's well know that smirks/grimmaces that raise up the side of one nostril are associated with 'contempt', smugness or moral superiority. I wondered if Fi could cause signals of contempt and (due to how it's a very private ethical process) whether it could cause a lot of these signals. Sure enough, nearly all the Fi users I've known (who have very private beliefs, opinions and stand by them) do this sort of "micro-snarling" ...or that's how I call it. It looks something like this (each of these frames can be just a few miliseconds apart):

Their upper lip is prone to rise up toward their nose at unexpected times. There's far less coordination of the mouth than with Fe. It seems like all the muscles around the nose, which go vertically, are continually contracting.

Here's a real-life example of it with Canada's young and successful TeSi prime minister:







Asymmetrical snarling + pinched nose area

(wow this post turned out long, sorry. i hope this helps answer the question!)

dont be sorry, this was great! and i was curious about the anatomy as well, so thanks for the diagram!

I have indeed noticed that a subset of people have that scrunchy nose look at all times. I sometimes scrunch up my nose, like if i want to make that kind of laugh, or to show disgust on occasion but my default is not that.

[Suz]

I also want to make the comment that, if i'm perceiving the same thing you are referring to @Sandoval, it's a subtle finding. Like often it's just a general "scrunchy-nose" gestalt, and sometimes it takes comparison to someone who doesn't have that effect going on to really see it.

Incidentally, I find the scrunchy-nose thing cute, usually.

[Resonare]

@Sandoval Kristen Schaal sounds exactly like Jennifer Tilly. I'm sure they're both IEE-Ne...



But VI wise I find it difficult to see a similarity between the two.

[Aylen]

I also want to make the comment that, if i'm perceiving the same thing you are referring to @Sandoval, it's a subtle finding. Like often it's just a general "scrunchy-nose" gestalt, and sometimes it takes comparison to someone who doesn't have that effect going on to really see it.

Incidentally, I find the scrunchy-nose thing cute, usually.

My EII sister does the scrunchy nose thing all the time and it doesn't even look like she is smelling something horrible. It is mostly after she says something a bit playful. She looks cute doing it. When we were kids I tried to imitate it but it just doesn't suit me. I have my own trademark expressions.

[Sandoval]

@Sandoval Kristen Schaal sounds exactly like Jennifer Tilly. I'm sure they're both IEE-Ne...

But VI wise I find it difficult to see a similarity between the two.

Indeed, they do share a lot of aspects. Visually, for example:

Pe Energy:
- Momentum of Body (they both have an energetic undercurrent that makes it so when they move from their sedentary posture, it's with abrupt excitation)
- Alert Eyes (their Pe eyes are wide, observant, engaged)
- Eyes Tracking (their eyes move about, up down left right, freely)
- Energetic body-swaying

Fi Accidental Expressions:
- Uncoordinated mouth
- Snarling Smiles
- Asymmetrical lip raises
- Sassy body swaying and head rattling



Above we see some asymmetrical expressions + the upward/downward tension around the mouth

But the quality of their eyes are what is different. Through this system she would be considered SeFi with heavy Se.

Psychologically:

But not just because of the signals. We can see some psychic parallels to Se in the real-time attention of her thoughts, how she responds to the environment, and where she takes topics. She is a little flirtatious in the tactile way and her style of playfulness centers around common situational or sensational dilemmas.

The Ne-type has ideas that center more on tangential proxies. So for example, when real-time surfing in this very Pe way, an Ne-type will parallel the present situation to some meme or idea which they then use to create a little mini-skit. (Phil's: "Go team Kettle!", "Hello Sonny Jim", etc). This is because Ne gets excitement through abstract correlation-forming. The real-time association (N) and frankensteining of ideas is what results. =P

Inversely, when Se is strong, the details of the present scenario itself are what are amplified, both conversationally or literally. So a joke may be taken to the next level, to the next 'intense', or audacious conclusion. Or something said may trigger a previous scenario to come into mind that has similar sensory qualities.

Here is an example of what strong Ne-type play looks like:



Examples of mini-skits and idea-conglomerating:

0:33 - "I had postindianonvideomakingsys--syndrome"
1:13 - "in the york that is new"
1:35 - "cray"
1:48 - "meeka (...) don't you slam that door!"

[Resonare]

@Sandoval You'd type Jennifer Tilly as a positivist?

[Sandoval]

Err, I don't know what a positivist is.
(maybe you could link me to it?)

I have trouble verifying many of Socionic's more theoretical addendums, and I use a different model too...

[Beautiful sky]

Indeed, they do share a lot of aspects. Visually, for example:

Pe Energy:
- Momentum of Body (they both have an energetic undercurrent that makes it so when they move from their sedentary posture, it's with abrupt excitation)
- Alert Eyes (their Pe eyes are wide, observant, engaged)
- Eyes Tracking (their eyes move about, up down left right, freely)
- Energetic body-swaying

Fi Accidental Expressions:
- Uncoordinated mouth
- Snarling Smiles
- Asymmetrical lip raises
- Sassy body swaying and head rattling



Above we see some asymmetrical expressions + the upward/downward tension around the mouth

But the quality of their eyes are what is different. Through this system she would be considered SeFi with heavy Se.

Psychologically:

But not just because of the signals. We can see some psychic parallels to Se in the real-time attention of her thoughts, how she responds to the environment, and where she takes topics. She is a little flirtatious in the tactile way and her style of playfulness centers around common situational or sensational dilemmas.

The Ne-type has ideas that center more on tangential proxies. So for example, when real-time surfing in this very Pe way, an Ne-type will parallel the present situation to some meme or idea which they then use to create a little mini-skit. (Phil's: "Go team Kettle!", "Hello Sonny Jim", etc). This is because Ne gets excitement through abstract correlation-forming. The real-time association (N) and frankensteining of ideas is what results. =P

Inversely, when Se is strong, the details of the present scenario itself are what are amplified, both conversationally or literally. So a joke may be taken to the next level, to the next 'intense', or audacious conclusion. Or something said may trigger a previous scenario to come into mind that has similar sensory qualities.

Here is an example of what strong Ne-type play looks like:



Examples of mini-skits and idea-conglomerating:

0:33 - "I had postindianonvideomakingsys--syndrome"
1:13 - "in the york that is new"
1:35 - "cray"
1:48 - "meeka (...) don't you slam that door!"

you have meeka's type right lol she's ILE

[Resonare]

Err, I don't know what a positivist is.
(maybe you could link me to it?)

I have trouble verifying many of Socionic's more theoretical addendums, and I use a different model too...

No prob.

On topic - I don't know many Deltas irl but your VI does seem fairly accurate based on the ones I know.

[maniac]

Why did you only include ugly people for delta?

[Sandoval]

Why did you only include ugly people for delta?

I don't find them ugly... but...
Here ya go:

[Sol]

Palin - may to have delta type
Jennifer Tilly - S type
Kristen Schaal - ISFP
Sandoval - needs more practice to type a little better

[maniac]

Palin - may to have delta type
Jennifer Tilly - S type
Kristen Schaal - ISFP
Sandoval - needs more practice to type a little better

Why do you think youre so good at typing? You never bring up an argument to prove your points lol

[Reficulris]

My argument against this would be that it's highly susceptable to theory ladeness of the observation (as all VI techniques). That is, you will see and acknowledge many examples of your theory fitting while ignoring and not acknowledging exceptions.

I have to give an A for effort though and by no means want to dissuade you from going into this further, just my sceptism about VI talking here.

[Sol]

Why do you think youre so good at typing?

When you say other types versions this only means that you trust to your opinion significantly more. There is nothing meaningful to trust opinion of Sandoval, for example.
Also when you are using typology for years and see that behavior of people near you fits to Socionics theory good, you have basis to trust your typing skills. Even if they are not perfect as sometimes I change my opinion.

You never bring up an argument to prove your points lol

Arguments are for objective knowledge. As there is no normal objective proof that some method is highly correct and those people type good with it, there is much of ambiguity in interpretations, - all arguments in Socionics are just speculations. To put significant efforts on argumentation by very subjective thoughts is senseless, especially when you are using like me rather intuitive method and hence there is no much to express by words.
Also to give thorough explanations, even if that was technically possible, to incompetent in typology people what follows from their low match with me and with anyone else, - is not really interesting. That's why I only say my versions of types and don't play in senseless speculative argumentations which you may find on forums. The ones who'd want to understand why I identify people in this way may to use my types examples and intuitive-nonverbal method - it's enough.

[youfloweryourfeast]

"eyes is not at all relaxed, but instead very stretched and sharp."yes,
the eyes are round and soft looking and and our cheeks are te square more like but at same times a more rounded face at chin but unlike beta the lips are never pierced or the eyes they seem unfocused because we also looking around. also might have lips piercing into soft smile more in ne ego
this lse and he get wrinkles around eyes and forehead when he older
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