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Thread: Reinin dichotomies: Positivism and Negativism

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    Default Reinin dichotomies: Positivism and Negativism

    Do you think it's accurate to say that they're optimists and pessimists?

    Anyways,

    Negativists: Alpha and Gamma introverts and Beta and Delta extroverts
    Positivists: Alpha and Gamma extroverts and Beta and Delta introverts

    Added from:
    - Positivist & Negativist Types - Wikisocion
    - Positivists and Negativists by Victor Gulenko


    POSITIVISM - NEGATIVISM

    Positivists (ILE, ESE, LSI, IEI, LIE, SEE, EII, SLI):

    • Positivists initially pay attention to what is present in a situation (what exists, what is there) what can realistically occur, what can be interpreted as an affirmative manifestation of surrounding world, situations, possibilities, prospects.
    • Positivists are oriented at what any situation or contact with people can potentially bring to them rather than what they could potentially lose (for example, moving is viewed as an opportunity to gain new acquaintances, friends, rather than primarily from point of view of losing existing friends). For them an orientation to success is more characteristic rather than avoidance of failure.
    • Positives are better at assimilating affirmative experiences. They are inclined to "convert" negative experiences into positive ones (they try to find the "silver lining").
    • They speak more of the positive and try to present negative moments on a positive background ("Yes, this is a problem, but..."—then continue to paint a positive picture). Conversations about the negative (when the other person accentuates deficiencies, absence, impossibility) may be irritating to Positivists.
    • In speech of Positivists, one can detect mostly affirmative constructions and intonations. If they are giving instructions to someone else, they present them in positive manner: they talk about what can be done or what should be done in different situations (for example, "You can call him only at this-and-this time") rather than what cannot or should not be done.

    Negativists (SEI, LII, SLE, EIE, ILI, ESI, IEE, LSE):

    • Negativists pay attention to aspects of the situation that are insufficient or lacking, which can be interpreted as seeing the negative prospects of various situations and events.
    • Negativists orient at what they could potentially lose as a result of a certain situation or contact with other people, rather than what this situation or contact can bring to them (for example, moving for negativists primarily means losing friends). Negativists focus on avoiding failures (the "positive" development of a situation is the fact that nothing negative has happened so far).
    • Negativists are better at assimilating negating, negative experiences. They are inclined to outline negative sides of affairs.
    • Negativists are more inclined to speak about negative moments. Positive aspects are presented on a negative background ("Well, this is good, but..."—then mentions what is lacking, what is not right). Negativists are irritated by "excessively positive" attitudes (when another person "forgets" to bring up or haven't even considered the negative aspects of something).
    • In speech of negativists there is frequent use of negating expressions (negative pronouns, adverbs, "not" "cannot" "nobody" "never"). For example: "Negative experiences are not always necessary, I don't need them" "There won't be an occasion to do anything" "I cannot say that this is not true" etc. If giving instructions they first of all talk about the things to avoid, what should not be done (For example "If you call them at such a time it will be pointless").

    Notes:
    Previous research on this dichotomy was reduced to measuring positive/negative in the "everyday" sense of the word. In our opinion, these attitudes are a consequence of a deeper mechanism: one group perceives and describes something by denoting associated properties (Positivists) while the other group denotes properties that are not associated with it. Positivists describe a subject, individual, phenomenon, attempting to describe it through characteristics inherent in the object, while Negativists focus on properties that do not pertain to the object. The cursory impression of optimism/pessimism being the distinguishing feature of this dichotomy occurs because of this. In reality, both Positivists and Negativists possess these two attitudes and talk equally of "good" and "bad" things. The difference is in the form of presentation—for example, on the same topic of shortcomings: "I cannot say that you have no shortcomings" (negativism) and "You have several shortcomings" (positivism).

    Hypotheses:
    The difference in assimilating experiences between Positivists and Negativists arises because Positivists better remember events when they did transpire, rather than events that did not occur, while Negativists are better at remembering events that did not occur, that were absent or lacking (for the Negativist, this absence constitutes an event in itself, they remember this better and draw conclusions).

    Examples:
    Positivists: "At first I trust people, distrust needs to be substantiated" "I always believe in a positive outcome. I will most likely talk about positives. I don't issue warnings of possible failures—why bring people down, may be everything will be ok" "It irritates me when people talk only of character flaws and inadequacies in others" "I try not to give instructions on avoidance or failure" "When giving instructions I avoid giving orders like "Don't do it! Don't go!" "Even negative experience can be positive" "I start off by trusting people and then work from there."
    Negativists: "My first reaction to everything is "no!" whatever it might be" "I don't speak of the positives" "One must take into account all the negative aspects. It goes without saying that people are capable of anything" "If the mood is too good - something is not right" "In my instructions I always give people "negative" orientation points. I foresee all the negative moments and try to make provisions for them" "People in general are good, but it's better to keep your distance from them" "When I was authoring a textbook, I constructed my proofs "by method of contradiction"" "Most often I bring bad news" "When asked "How's it going?" I answer "Not well." "How am I going to entertain myself? Certainly I wouldn't go to a restaurant, neither a casino ... but somewhere out to nature..." "There will be a building there, but that's not what you're looking for. After that you will see a street, but don't take it, continue on your path. Go around the building and don't use the first two entrances."

    Additional Commentary and Notes

    Positivism-Negativism is often mistaken for optimism-pessimism, where Positivism has become synonymous with optimism, and Negativism - with pessimism. By extension, those who fall into Eneagram's positive outlook triad (these are types 2,7,9) are sometimes mistaken for Positivist types due to these triad's innate preference for dealing with problems by adopting a "positive attitude", for as much as possible, and reframing disappointments in some more uplifting way; while the often mistrustful attitude and propensity to mentally dwell on problems and threats of enneagram type 6 can be mistaken for Negativism. It is important to note that there is no direct relation between Positivist-Negativist Reinin dichotomy and optimism-pessimism. The name of this dichotomy should not be interpreted literally. Positivists do not have an inherently positive outlook on life, and Negativists - a negative one. The Positivist-Negativist dichotomy describes certain kinds aspects of cognitive perception and mental operations rather than person's outlook, attitudes, and prevalent emotional state. Optimism-pessimism is a quality that arises from personal experiences; socionics factors do not influence and condition this phenomenon in itself.

    A distinguishing trait of Positivist and Negativist types is the preference for comparison (Positivists) or contrast (Negativists). Positivist types are more inclined to spot similarities and draw analogies ("they are so alike", "y is just like x" etc.), while Negativist are inclined to instead look at contrasts or alternatives ("they are nothing alike!"). Figuratively speaking, if Positivists are shown the front side then they will be looking at the front side, while Negativists will try to look at its inverse. If this inverse is not readily apparent, they will start searching for it. Thus Negativists do not seek to present a "negative" or "pessimistic" view of things, but simply the inverse or the alternative one.

    Victor Gulenko: How can you determine if someone is a Positivist or a Negativist? (video lecture)

    Audience: Can you say that someone is a positivist or negativist in life?
    V. Gulenko: In life, well, you probably think that this is like a pessimist and an optimist. Not necessarily. It turns out to be more complicated than that. It would be easiest to explain on the example of Critic (ILI). ILI is usually described as a skeptic and a pessimist. But if you come to ILI with your own pessimism and tell him "everything is bad, very bad, and there is no way out", he will act conversely and try to show you the opposite side. On your pessimism and minus he will apply his own minus, and the end result will be a plus. He will say "yes things are bad, but here's something good". That is a negativist type always looks from a different side, conversely, looking at alternatives.
    A positivist can be saying "every thing is good, it's good, it's good" but then suddenly something doesn't work, he feels locked and falls into a negative state, because he can't see alternatives. The main distinguishing feature here is not pessimism-optimism, but the ability to look at a situation from the other side.
    ESE, for example, is not always happy. He can fall into a negative state and remain there for a long time if he's not provided with an alternative. In this case the LII gives it to him - the LII analyzes the situation and shows that yes, this is not correct, this is not right, but over here it's so and so, and it leads to this and this, and he redirects his dual.
    Audience: And pessimism-optimism is related to the sign of Fe function?
    V. Gulenko: Conditionally I agree with you, but linking emotions should not be done to the sign. In everyday communication, there are social expectations - all people know, irrespective of their type, that they needs to show the good and hide the bad. Everyone knows about this. If we consider Fe, it will be associated with happiness or cheerfulness, although Fe is both joy and despair. The ESE will show joy and hide despair, but so will the EIE show joy and hide despair. However, the closer you become with a person, the more difficult it becomes to hide the sign. The minus starts to show more clearly. In society, everyone wishes to show plus signs and hide minus ones. We need to consider such nuances. It's essential to take a look at this from inside a person, while from outside, a ethical type with Fe will demonstrate happiness, joy, despite the functional sign. But they might demonstrate this differently. For some, the negative emotions will shine through this happiness. Or there will be a mixture of positive and negative emotions, such as tragicomedy. For example Charlie Chaplin - his movies seem funny at first, but there is human suffering and tragedy hidden in them, so the result is a mixed emotion. The talent of dramatic genre belongs to type EIE, Mentor.
    While melancholy and unhappiness is not minus-Fe. This is most likely Ni - that is, every function has its emotional equivalent - and if you are in the state of Ni, seeing how everything is developing over time, you come to realize, despite your type, that it all will eventually end - could this create happiness, the realization that we will all die?
    Audience: But the Lyricist (IEI) is considered to be a positivist type ...
    V. Gulenko: The IEI can extinguish his negativism with positivism, he knows how to leave and move away from the negative and focus on the positive. Lyricist in the state of -Ni feels melancholic, and if it is not supplemented by any positive emotions he can fall into a depression. Depression, sadness, despair - this is all Ni, and this is irrespective of the sign.
    Last edited by silke; 08-26-2016 at 09:45 PM. Reason: updated text
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    I'm a positivist.
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    I'm a negativist who grew up and got tired of being depressed about things. I still look at places of insufficiency, but I wonder about how to make them better. I always notice how things could be improved. But if you ask me how things are going, I am not going to say "it's all bad', not anymore. I n highschool, when I was a whiney puss, maybe. Not anymore, though.


    But for general stuff, yeah, I'm a negativist
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    Almost a Negativist, but these are also usual me.
    They are inclined to converts negative experiences into positive ones (Find the silver lining).
    They speak of the positive more, negative moments they present in a positive background ("Yes, they are grave problems, but..." – and then continues to paint a positive picture).
    Or maybe I'm just perverse speaker.
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    I am also a negativist; however, I am currently contemplating methods to alter this aspect of my character, as it makes college life particularly stressful. My major drawback occurs, because I view my “negative” perspective as a powerful mechanism for avoiding future turmoil—therefore, it seems illogical to alter it (AKA, adopting “positivism” seems risky in that I could be potentially unprepared for an unexpected negative situation).

    I spoke with a psychologist who claims to have changed from negativism to positivism through the therapy she was required to take in training. However, she also claimed to have changed from a faux j type (she said that it was a learned behaviour from her childhood) to her genuine p type.

    Is shifting from negativism to positivism somehow correlated to a shift in socionics type?
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    Being too positive can be as detrimental as being negative... I think you're describing a shift more towards a healthy balance.
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    Positivist.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Negativist.

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    Umm...I can't decide. I feel I'm a negativist but then again how it is described here I might as well be positivist. Or negativist. Or...I guess I can't decide with this dichotomy

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    Well ... as described here I am clearly a negativist, that's for sure.

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    I think I'm basically pretty optimistic, but I am supposedly a "negativist". I will have to watch myself and think about it a bit.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    .

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    ok well I asked my husband if he would use the word "negativist" to describe me and he said, "yes yes yes. You never seem to think things are going to work out ok."

    So I guess I'll have to accept it.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I'm definitely a negativist though probably I show to the word a more positive facade.
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    Negativist, as anyone I know in real life could tell you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    Almost a Negativist, but these are also usual me.
    They are inclined to converts negative experiences into positive ones (Find the silver lining).
    They speak of the positive more, negative moments they present in a positive background ("Yes, they are grave problems, but..." – and then continues to paint a positive picture).
    Or maybe I'm just perverse speaker.

    this sounds like me.

    generally negativist, but i do the same things you do.
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    Definately positive.

    This dichotomy seems to correlate very very well to real people.
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    I'm a Positivist generally, but I often go into Negativist mode.
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    What happens to Positivist's when they are suffering from depression?
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    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy
    What happens to Positivist's when they are suffering from depression?
    The opposite of what happens to Negativists when they are suffering from mania.

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    I'm mostly a negativist, smashing the dreams of optimists with scrutinized analysis.

    But I wonder if there is a correlation between positivists/negativists and whinners (whom I loathe). Because it seems to me that I've known a great deal of positivists who were still whinners. It may just be type related in another fashion though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I'm mostly a negativist, smashing the dreams of optimists with scrutinized analysis.

    But I wonder if there is a correlation between positivists/negativists and whinners (whom I loathe). Because it seems to me that I've known a great deal of positivists who were still whinners. It may just be type related in another fashion though.
    My ISTj mother whines a lot. I can't really see ISTjs as positivists (am I missing something?), although the distinction does hold up in general IME. I try to think positive, but it's difficult. Maybe I shouldn't try so hard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I'm mostly a negativist, smashing the dreams of optimists with scrutinized analysis.

    But I wonder if there is a correlation between positivists/negativists and whinners (whom I loathe). Because it seems to me that I've known a great deal of positivists who were still whinners. It may just be type related in another fashion though.
    My ISTj mother whines a lot. I can't really see ISTjs as positivists (am I missing something?), although the distinction does hold up in general IME. I try to think positive, but it's difficult. Maybe I shouldn't try so hard.
    Yeah I've seen such a variation in ISTjs! My father is such a positivist that sometimes it's not even funny, but there's the father of a friend of mine that is very much a negativist :s
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    My ISTj mother whines a lot. I can't really see ISTjs as positivists (am I missing something?), although the distinction does hold up in general IME. I try to think positive, but it's difficult. Maybe I shouldn't try so hard.
    Yeah I've seen such a variation in ISTjs! My father is such a positivist that sometimes it's not even funny, but there's the father of a friend of mine that is very much a negativist :s
    Curious, I've had a hard time seeing ESTps as negativists.
    I wonder if ISTj and ESTp break the positivist/negativist rules.....
    and if they do....do they do it on purpose??? :wink:
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    ESTp might be negativist indeed; but he/she has the will to overcome all obstacles. in this view, they will do anything to make their world a positive place. personally for me, i might see a myriad of obstacles, have other people fretting about our impending failure. but because i can see all the negative probabilities, i see how i can troubleshoot my way out. success lies in evaluating your environment judiciously and taking advantage of opportunities at hand. people tend to see me as an optimistic person btw. i have a friend who's ISTj and is clearly a pessimist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustachio
    ESTp might be negativist indeed; but he/she has the will to overcome all obstacles. in this view, they will do anything to make their world a positive place. personally for me, i might see a myriad of obstacles, have other people fretting about our impending failure. but because i can see all the negative probabilities, i see how i can troubleshoot my way out. success lies in evaluating your environment judiciously and taking advantage of opportunities at hand. people tend to see me as an optimistic person btw. i have a friend who's ISTj and is clearly a pessimist.
    that makes a lot of sense
    I'm a negativist too, and about half of the time I attempt to overcome that by deliberately looking for the positive aspects, or moving through despite the negativism.
    and yes, i understand using the ability of seeing the negative possibilities as a way of troubleshooting or at least maneuvering one's self in a way to reduce those negative possibilities

    can you think of any possible reasons why an istj would be positivist, and yet pessimistic?
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    My ISTj mother whines a lot. I can't really see ISTjs as positivists (am I missing something?), although the distinction does hold up in general IME. I try to think positive, but it's difficult. Maybe I shouldn't try so hard.
    Yeah I've seen such a variation in ISTjs! My father is such a positivist that sometimes it's not even funny, but there's the father of a friend of mine that is very much a negativist :s
    Curious, I've had a hard time seeing ESTps as negativists.
    I wonder if ISTj and ESTp break the positivist/negativist rules.....
    and if they do....do they do it on purpose??? :wink:
    I think ESTps just overcome it with willlpower, I don't know. Say I have to approach a girl, I do think about all the possible bad outcomes. But a second after, I'm like "screw that" and I do it.
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    it might be the other way around. ISTj thinks the way it lives is positive. since that person sees their world as a positive place, any thing or person who threatens that view makes them cringe. they might thrive in a highly competitve environment because of their positive disposition. but surrounded by things or people whom they view as negative, they quickly become pessimistic not of themselves but of others, of situations. they thus become suspicious of certain things which do not fit into their positive views. they positively overcome obstacles by cleaning out all aspects which bring these pessimistic sentiments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mustachio
    it might be the other way around. ISTj thinks the way it lives is positive. since that person sees their world as a positive place, any thing or person who threatens that view makes them cringe. they might thrive in a highly competitve environment because of their positive disposition. but surrounded by things or people whom they view as negative, they quickly become pessimistic not of themselves but of others, of situations. they thus become suspicious of certain things which do not fit into their positive views. they positively overcome obstacles by cleaning out all aspects which bring these pessimistic sentiments.
    makes sense,
    thank you
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    Positivist to the infinity
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    My first impression of myself is negativist but the ESTp/ISTj explanations might mean that I'm positivist. Difficult question. True essence of dichotomies is hard to grasp and their names may be misleading.

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    OK so as an example as how this dichotomies could be misused, I know someone whose type would have her be a "positivist" but who was the victim of a violent crime, and now definitely comes across as a "negativist". If anyone were to try to type her based on dichotomies, I'm sure they would type her as a "negativist" or whatever and she'd be mistyped. Unless I've mistyped her, but I don't think I have. And even if I did mistype her, it's still a very possible scenario.

    Too many things can alter how we interpret people in these ways, and also I think people interpret the actual dichotomies differently. And as my example shows, life circumstances play a huge role in some of the areas supposedly delineated by the dichotomies. Plus, I don't think people can fairly judge themselves in these. I would swear up and down that I'm positive. I continue to question their value. Which is negative, isn't it? Oh well.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Negativist == Introverted Democrat or Extroverted Aristocrat
    Positivist == Introverted Aristocrat or Extroverted Democrat

    Maybe that sheds some light on the distinction: Aristocrats are inclined to see social divisions, which causes stress for extroverts, but not introverts.

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    negativist fits me better.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    I consider myself a negativist, but I can't be sure . My view on things is how can people not be negativist, considering that we all die, and the universe is going to fizzle away to nothing in billions of years? So, ultimately, I'm a negativist - but in everday things I'm a positivist - if the worse hasn't happened yet, then everything is fine. Which one should apply to me the most, how I think or how I act?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I consider myself a negativist, but I can't be sure . My view on things is how can people not be negativist, considering that we all die, and the universe is going to fizzle away to nothing in billions of years?
    That's actually a good reason to be a positivist: if we are all going to die then why not doing everything without really thinking about the consequences?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean
    I consider myself a negativist, but I can't be sure . My view on things is how can people not be negativist, considering that we all die, and the universe is going to fizzle away to nothing in billions of years?
    That's actually a good reason to be a positivist: if we are all going to die then why not doing everything without really thinking about the consequences?
    I have considered this - but if I know that anything I do is futile, there's no point in doing it. Plus, from my experience, people + society as well as concerns for my short term health limit me from doing what I want - they do this through social obligation + the own desire to fulfill their wants - if we only have a limited time, I don't want to treat people this way, which leads me to inaction = negativist. Even doing acts of goodwill could be interpreted as bad, because people don't see things the way I do, so ultimately it's better to let people have their own way .
    EII-Ne
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    Positivist here!

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy
    What happens to Positivist's when they are suffering from depression?
    Good question. Perhaps Positivists are more likely to blame themselves for their depression than Negativists.

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    Default Positivist/Negativist

    Positivist: motivated by successes to work harder and produce even better results. However, when they meet failure, they get very upset over it and tend to magnify it.

    Negativist: motivated by failures to work harder and produce better results. However, when they have better results, they lost the motivation and willpower to maintain it.

    These are the insights I got from my ENFp and INFj friends. Thought it might got to do with been a positivist or negativist.

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    no.

    somebody else will be able explain it more eloquently than i can.

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