Do they?
What titles do you like, LIEs?
What computer games do LIEs/ENTjs play
Do they?
What titles do you like, LIEs?
I don't.
None. It seems to be an unproductive "guilty pleasure". I would rather use free time in other ways. At least if I'm on the Forum, I might learn something...& I would much rather read. During University I would feel guilt when reading a cereal box or a newspaper while eating, as opposed to my course textbooks (unless I was caught up--which was never). Therefore I now derive a guilty satisfaction & feeling of self indulgence out of reading for pleasure--especially if it's fiction (big fan of Margaret Atwood).Gaming would be an entirely bigger level...I would be ashamed haha.
**Edit--Perhaps "guilt" is the wrong word choice--maybe a more fitting way to explain it would be "anxiety invoking". If I took a half hour out of the day to peruse a newspaper, when I had 6 chapters yet to read, then I would equate reading the newspaper with a half-hour of lost sleep, thereby causing it to lose its seductiveness. I used to enjoy solving Sudoku..that is very similar to "Gaming" imo. It's a self stimulating behaviour which basically only eats up time. But everyone needs down-time...it's a matter of what produces the most relaxation & benefit according to the individual.
Last edited by ENJoymENT; 04-20-2015 at 02:26 AM.
Yeah. I guess I'd like to play games like Patrician or The Guild but the problem is they eat so much time. First, you'd have to invest some time in learning how the environment works there. So it'd be something for moments when you really can waste some.Originally Posted by ENJoymENT
None. It seems to be an unproductive "guilty pleasure". I would rather use free time in other ways. At least if I'm on the Forum, I might learn something...& I would much rather read. During University I would feel guilt when reading a cereal box or a newspaper while eating, as opposed to my course textbooks (unless I was caught up--which was never). Therefore I now derive a guilty satisfaction & feeling of self indulgence out of reading for pleasure--especially if it's fiction (big fan of Margaret Atwood).
**Edit--Perhaps "guilt" is the wrong word choice--maybe a more fitting way to explain it would be "anxiety invoking". If I took a half hour out of the day to peruse a newspaper, when I had 6 chapters yet to read, then I would equate reading the newspaper with a half-hour of lost sleep, thereby causing it to lose its seductiveness. I used to enjoy solving Sudoku..that is very similar to "Gaming" imo. It's a self stimulating behaviour which basically only eats up time. But everyone needs down-time...it's a matter of what produces the most relaxation & benefit according to the individual.
I don't feel so anxious or guilty when reading books for pleasure. Mainly because I believe it's a better form of leisure activity than to end up in front of your computer just staring at facebook e.g. If you have little time and you need to relax I guess it would be better to launch a fast game but even better would be doing something for yourself.
My question came up from a discussion with ILI. He loves tabletop games and we played some together but for me personally it's just waste of time and money. If we talk about self-development maybe it's fine (more or less) but still, I guess it's more sensible to use a computer game with strong AI, where economics is used rather than just military aggression which is useless in everyday life. And tabletop cost more than computer. I don't see any sense in interaction in tabletops as it's better to interact doing active stuff like cycling together. Or work on some nice project. Also, aliances are quite shallow and schematic. It's better to get some ESI to learn that
I believe LIEs have the POTENTIAL to become Gamers--the challenge, the competition. Sometimes when we do indulge in things we can be pretty unhealthy. Partying too hard, not sleeping etc...I think it's a way of indulging our Se HA. I think the thing that does stop us though is our PolR Si. We want to go hard as hell to prove that we can..yet be able to walk away too, so it doesn't become a weakness....but the problem is they eat so much time. First, you'd have to invest some time in learning how the environment works there. So it'd be something for moments when you really can waste some.
We can adopt a pretty negative attitude to what we perceive as gluttonous or overly self indulgent..."weakness". Indeed that aversion drives the formation of many of my personal stances on things. I loved Facebook at first..then I started to hate the idlers--those who were always online ready to respond with a "Thank you" for any "Like" within a second...24/7. Always inviting people to join FarmVille or whatever. Someone would post "Spending some quality time with my kiddoes!<3" And I'd think "No you're not--you're sitting typing at your computer." Haha Finally I left Facebook..& am appalled at how much time I actually spent doing that Sh__.
In my early 20s a bunch of my crowd started doing coke. At first I thought that was fun & adventurous..until I saw 3 of my friends seriously arguing about whose hit was up next. My SEE ex came in & said "look at you guys, wtf's the matter with you!!" Haha. After that I saw coke differently..as a sign of "weakness", & therefore stopped. Our image consciousness can at times be our liberator, and at other times our prison (perhaps that's also because I'm E3 though).
I don't think the ILI has the same aversion towards self indulgence. Role's a lot more laid back than PolR. My ILI GF once slept at my place after a party. The next day she was completely jonesing for her Tablet that she left at my place because she couldn't play her Candy Crush. I laughed and got it to her quickly, because she was so up front and unashamed about her sense of entitlement towards her self indulgence/addiction. I kind of admired that. She's really good at her games too!
I've definitely become more ILI-like the older I get. In my teens/20s I was like a SEE--very social, partying hard, living to excess. Ironically now I'm more introverted sometimes than my ILI GF who wants to hang out, socialize & party more. I think the introverted version of LIE is healthier--less consumed by image or outer judgement. If we can Si in private, then sometimes we can cut ourself some slack! The danger of "introverting" is the same as with ILE--we can become too stuck & hermit-like. We need socializing to take the edge off & make us human. Cheers
**Edit: I just remembered my ILI GF is always pushing the games too! She bought me a set of darts, she always wants to play euchre, poker, Big2...we've even all played Clue. I see it all as a night to get drunk--which we do, & it's a good time. The funniest thing is I have this annual Bender in August, & she makes everyone play Charades. It's actually quite entertaining seeing everyone making drunk and uninhibited fools of themselves. My brother's GF didn't want to play but was forced, and then the card she drew to act out was: Beaver. Haha
Maybe for the ILI, games create a fabricated but safe intimacy. Where there is no pressure to be impressively socially entertaining because everyone's stuck there & occupied for the game's entirety. It becomes relaxation, combined with some social...but the main goal is to demonstrate strategic and intellectual superiority. It's perfect for the ILI!
Last edited by ENJoymENT; 04-20-2015 at 07:42 PM.
Everything @ENJoymENT just said I agree with, having seen this myself irl.
I agree with ENjoymENT also. Games just don't feel ok most of the time. Most leisure activities don't feel ok (i shame myself just for being on an online forum). It's not necessary that I'm hard at work all of the time. It's only necessary that there is some sort of progress-- physical, mental, or whatever-- as a product (or byproduct) of what I'm doing. Part of this has to do with the fact that I can get way too wrapped up with entertainment, e.g. I just got a free trial of HBOnow and the effect has been horrifying. I used to never watch TV.
I think a distinction needs to be made here: LIE like to have fun, they are imo, fun loving or better yet, stimulation seeking (mental, relational, physical, ect). I think doing such an introverted act like watching tons of TV would be boring for them. Unless there is a series then like anyone else they might shotgun all 8 seasons or something - then all their enthusiasm for life drains away. You know how you are!
I'm not sure I agree with this idea of all work, no play though. :S
This is what I'm talking about, and it was more like one season. Burning up 4 hours in one Saturday is painful for me.
eh I don't really like it either. I'm just in college and trying to keep my grades up. I don't have much else going on otherwise it wouldn't be just pure work, but thats due more to other circumstances.I'm not sure I agree with this idea of all work, no play though. :S
There is always SOMETHING that just needs to be done.
i mean... yes.
Huh? Haha, I was agreeing with you!
Hey man, I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm or not. I was just saying yes because I agree too.
heh
so...does this mean LIEs don't know how to relax?
Hah, sorry, you are right, I wasn't very clear. I meant like...yeah there is always something that needs, or could be, or should be, or desired to be done. I have a question though. I've noticed LIE kind of "cash", then they just want to lie on the couch for like four hours as you were saying.
About the video games, I don't think its about needing to do something useful instead..just that playing computer games has no use. The funny thing for me is that its not like any other activity choosen to do is really any better. From what I've seen LIE get kind of bored, especially by themselves.
Was there supposed to be a question at the end of this?
That's probably a better way of putting it, but I think it also relates to the amount of time spent in any activity. The internet is great for multitasking. I can't multitask if I'm playing video games or watching TV really. It's also easy to quit. I need to feel like I can stop at any given moment and switch to something else so that it doesn't pull me away from my higher priority activities or keep me from paying attention to Si type things (such as getting to bed at the right time). Higher priority activities are just activities that relate to my goals. So in a sense i see it as opportunity cost. It's not that any other activity is inherently better, but some are better for me.About the video games, I don't think its about needing to do something useful instead..just that playing computer games has no use. The funny thing for me is that its not like any other activity chosen to do is really any better.
Yeah this is definitely true. Unfortunately I'm perpetually bored. I think it relates to needing change or future opportunity. Right now I don't have that and so I'm spiraling.From what I've seen LIE get kind of bored, especially by themselves.
Lol @Contra, you're clearly not ILI from these revelations.
Yeah I'm pretty comfortable with my typing. It's made a lot of sense of my intertype relations and cleared up a bit of the theory for me. I don't think I come off like an LIE, but maybe I just need to be around more Ni subs.
The question was...I'm not sure.
On another note, what does spiralling look like to you?
My interpretation of spiralling: it's a sign that one is not doing what they'd really like to be doing. Perhaps they are mired down in a necessary yet detested portion of goal achievement i.e. some course requirements not in the area of one's strength but necessary to getting the degree that will finally...someday...allow one to do and live in a way that will bring happiness, fulfillment and contentment. It results in feelings of discontent, apathy, entrapment, resentment and powerlessness since there is no practical way around the process. Giving up is not an option, since that would only result in a bigger spiral, because the resentment in that case would be directed inward as opposed to at the outward situation..and that would be unbearable (and an indication of weakness).
The typical remedy involves a little bit of self sabotage...as a token show of rebellion. Perhaps some procrastination--putting off an assignment, reading cereal boxes
Ironically, it's all a bit of self-love..a way of cutting oneself some slack--accepting that the Si faux pas was necessary to recharge & refuel. After all, it was the only way to submit..yet rebel, still accomplish what was necessary, and stay true to the fact that they just didn't want to f___in do it!
I like how Enjoyment describes it all. For me personally is not that I don't play games at all or I don't like games. It's just they're nonsense. And even when feel like playing I often don't do it. And I fell prone to competition so it's relatively easy to talk me into playing if only I feel like I have to be better. But this is more complicated. Some things or people just won't force me to competition and in other cases it's very easy. E.g. I worked on my martial arts 9h a week when regular trainings went only 3 hours in the club. I just wanted to be the best but when I saw I won't get anything more and it isn't really rewarding, I stopped doing that. I stopped doing that at all.
It's pretty easy to get me into a habit of doing something but then when I realise it's getting destructive, I stop it. Just like that. That's why I've never really became addicted to cigarettes or alcohol. One day I just say "enough" and it's enough. I can waste hours in the computer but when it's enough, it's enough and I start working like an idiot. I'm not sure if I can't relax. For me probably realxing are the things that for others would be associated with work. Like learning something or drawing a project in order to try to sell it later.
Many things changed with age I guess. I could sleep wherever and I could pack up just in a little rucksack and spend a whole week like that. Now I prefer hotels than gyms to sleep in. But if I'd have to, still no problem. I can see similarity with ESI here. ESI understands I want a hotel. ILI would probably treat it as a waste of money. Maybe this is 1d Se in ILI that is not so flexible and sees only one side of things?
I just want to pop in and say this thread is really interesting to look at. I've often been on the fence about Ne vs Te lead. After reading all your posts about anxiety and guilt or whatever with minor time wasters I can invariably see that all Te is for me is a demonstrative. I thought you guys would be a little more than just "It's an inefficient waste of time"; and dwell into the market or leadership simulation side of things. Oh well. It's funny because it pops up in a totally different way for me, It manifests as a minimizing work done, viciously taking out the dull work so I can laze around doing the exact things you feel negative doing. Ironically I don't really play games (unless I hear some really good things about the story or art) because I don't ever find the time to finish them, so it's a waste, or usually I'm too bored of them in general.
This game was afaik incepted by an LIE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo. It's reflective of the random style of V-S cognition, with key themes being unpredictability, risk-taking, strategy and self-directed experience. At least 3 of the guys in the player group that I played with were LIE, two of them put quite a bit of time into playing this. There are games that appeal to the V-S cog but not too many of them out there.
I know EIE who plays Eve and loves it. So, yep. Confirmed. Se6 for Se6
Well I think ENJoymENT hit the nail on the head. What she said is actually extremely applicable to my situation. Except for the fact that my situation is a little worse in that I'm not even sure I'm in the right major (or career path for that matter) but I'm kind of stuck and I feel like I have to continue going. I feel like I have more important things to be doing but am unable to do them because the classes I'm taking are so boring that they take up all of my time.
This is pretty much how it is for me. I wasn't exactly born with a talent for sports so, growing up, it was easy for me to quit because I was so terrible. It wasn't until about the age of 14 that my coordination got decent enough that I was competitive in sports, but I'm still definitely not the best so they're not a huge point of interest for me.
Yeah, I think it goes beyond just Te leading. My LSE roommate is just constantly "wasting time", whether it's video games, TV, or making/eating food. He is always doing something, but he doesn't have many goals for his future so he reverts to relaxation.
Lol, ILI's just told me how the last game looked like and that he hated the other guy from our town (LIE) so much because he'd made a wrong move and then he kept talking how the game sucked. Because you need to manipulate people there in order to betray them later. Nice Fi-5 I guess and similar reason for me. Or one among others.
I've seen this as well.
I've lived out of a bag for large portions of my life as well. But I've never slept in a gym. Your story reminded me of an LIE I know. He would often sleep on the couch of his house because it was close to the fire place. He had a heater but he didn't want to set it up because he didn't want to be comfortable in his bedroom in case the fire went out and the house froze. He had been doing this for years and could never understand why he wasn't getting enough sleep. Also, in the summer he did not have air conditioning when clearly his place needed it because of direct sun exposure. He didn't believe that a portable unit that could be rolled around and attached through a window, but is not permanent, would do anything. He had just been living this way forever, sweating like a whore in church every summer..... got him hooked up from one at a department store and set it up and he loves it.
I came to this thread late because I don't play video games, never have, and thought I couldn't contribute. But then I saw that it is not entirely about video games.
I could never see the point of them. I have smart friends who do, but I don't understand the appeal. I don't have a television either, though. When my roommates drop-kicked it down the basement stairs during a party I thought, Why replace it? They'll just do it again. Then, I discovered that I had a bunch of time to do other stuff, and actually started getting productive with my life. I got a better job, earned more money, and got rid of those roommates.
My wife thought it was great that I didn't have a television. My explanation to her for not having a TV was that it impaired a person's active social development and made them passive, because the TV just did stuff to you while you just sat there and accepted it. I think she liked it because it meant more of my attention was directed at her, but my reasoning kind of proved to be correct. My son grew up not missing it, and found other stuff to do. One day, he came home from a friend's house and said Elliot has a television, and is he allowed to watch it? I told him, Sure, watch all you want, we just don't want to do that at home. He said he did think it was kind of strange, that Elliot invited him over to play, but then just turned on the TV and sat there watching it.
I totally realize that the advanced social perceptions that people have today are due to having seen thousands of hours of sophisticated social interactions by the time a person is ten years old, and that is great. What is not so great for them is if they substitute TV for real life, in my opinion. My opinion of video games is that they are trainers for the military (and if they want me trained, they should pay for it, not me). I've designed systems for military trainers that, in some ways, mimic the best video games, because that is the targeting and weapons interface that guys coming into the military are good at using. But if you're not planning to join the military, I can't see the point.
Wow. OK, I admit, I did look at EVE and was fascinated. Didn't play it, but it has a lot of appeal to me, especially the way it pulls you in with the ethical rescue at the beginning. I've not heard of V-S cognition before, but from what little I've been able to track down in the last few minutes, it sounds exactly like the way I picture the world. That is, as an infinitely complex set of interactions between players of different strengths with variable coupling constants (motives and power) and both open and hidden variables (desires and resources). The trick is to assess the strengths of the players and of their interactions, make educated guesses as to what the hidden variables are, and to make rational bets on where the whole thing is going in order to personally take action to affect the outcome and to make a profit. Steady, inexorable wins, one after another. Bam! I love this.
This is what I do in real life.
Where can I find out more about V-S cognition?
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ical-Cognition
Hi, wacey.
Many thanks!
You're welcome
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