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Thread: Vortical Synergetic Cognition

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    Default Vortical Synergetic Cognition

    Whats the deal. What are some current fields of study or occupations where vortex cognition is useful?

    http://pages.citebite.com/m5p8c6g7mtwx

    Creating a vortex?

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    they're best at acting on opportunities; making use of anything that happens to cross their path.

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    Compare it to dialectical-algorithmic, which operates as if all things are evenly counterbalanced against eachother. In this way the system is closed, & completed. Navigating the system is a matter of pairing opposites, all defined by their positions within the algorithm. This gives it the deductive & negative quality. Vortex thinking believes the system is not perfectly counter balanced, and the connections of all the data imply the value of an unknown variable (all the information points toward its value). The value of the variable is what brings the system back into balance. That's why vortex thinking is positive and inductive. That's also why it's opportunistic.
    Vortex thinking is searching for something.
    If you want a good example of these two processes clashing look at the debate on the existence of UFOs. Vortex thinking is the hallmark of conspiracy theorists. Dialectical-algorithmic thinkers (mainly ILIs in the thread) will insist it's weather balloons or whatever, alien enthusiasts (mostly IEIs) will say there's something missing, and aliens are the best explanation.
    I wouldn't mind if we renamed it positive inductive thinking. That would be alot simpler.
    Last edited by rat1; 04-30-2011 at 08:50 AM.

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    I'm a bit bad at the theoretical words at times, but if I'm getting this correct, would that type of reasoning consist of building a big mountain of , and going with whatever goes along with a large majority of it?

    If so, then I do this from time to time, though I wouldn't call it my main go-to

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Compare it to dialectical-algorithmic, which operates as if all things are evenly counterbalanced against eachother. In this way the system is closed, & completed. Navigating the system is a matter of pairing opposites, all defined by their positions within the algorithm. This gives it the deductive & negative quality. Vortex thinking believes the system is not perfectly counter balanced, and the connections of all the data imply the value of an unknown variable (all the information points toward its value). The value of the variable is what brings the system back into balance. That's why vortex thinking is positive and inductive. That's also why it's opportunistic.
    Vortex thinking is searching for something.
    If you want a good example of these two processes clashing look at the debate on the existence of UFOs. Vortex thinking is the hallmark of conspiracy theorists. Dialectical-algorithmic thinkers (mainly ILIs in the thread) will insist it's weather balloons or whatever, alien enthusiasts (mostly IEIs) will say there's something missing, and aliens are the best explanation.
    I wouldn't mind if we renamed it positive inductive thinking. That would be alot simpler.
    I definitely don't think your example makes any sense, tbh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Not necessarily. 'Opportunistic' is probably a good keyword—it has a knack for rapidly acting upon and exploiting breaches in dynamical conditions. Here's a good example of vortical cognition in action ŕ la ENTj:

    U.S. Army General George S. Patton, Jr. referred to the "rock soup method" of acquiring resources for attacks in the face of official disapproval by his superiors for offensive operations. In the military context, he sent units forward ostensibly on reconnaissance missions, to later reinforce them when resistance was met and eventually turned small scale probes into all out attacks; he notably did this during the Battle of Sicily in the advance on Palermo and again in the campaign in northwest Europe, notably near Metz when his 3rd US Army was officially halted during Operation Market Garden.[2]


    SEEs fall under Causal-Determinist style.
    Thanks would/could the LIE and SLI being Carefree types make them even more potent in that style of doing things? Just the thought of being on the business end of that type of all-going-on-at-once offensive, I don't think I could make sense of it all fast enough (I wonder how many of my many Starcraft defeats were at the hands of an LIE)

    Also, would/could Causal-Determinists be prone to placing a higher value on mathematics than the other types? I find myself crunching the numbers a bit more than I would expect an irrational ethical type to, and that would explain lots of that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow View Post
    Yeah well I know I'm right, so whatever. Say something substantial or fuck off.
    Sorry lol I was going to bed, didn't feel like adding something substantial. Anyway, I believe vortex cognition is well-suited for intellectual matters such as:

    - meteorology / climatology
    - macroeconomics
    - computational complexity
    - learning languages
    - statistical physics

    many of whom do fit the first part of your reasoning, namely the presence of hidden variables which need to be discovered by a process of synergy, yet are slightly more testable / "scientific" (pardon me the buzzword) than UFOs. So any debate between algorithmers and synergists can in principle be settled definitively, thus it can be said that vortex cognition is good at that style of thinking.

    I like Ashton's quote on Patton's style. I recognize my own way of executing a "strategy" in that description (ofc not on the battlefield but for example when I'm partecipating in a cycling race).
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    Your listing the more obvious NT ones that have very particular T classifications. SF and NF would be sales, argumentation, image control, art/music/writing, swaying the crowd. The particular names or genres for esfjs and infps I don't know. PR person, radio host seem good for esfj. For SLI perhaps musician, athlete, synergistic tuners and tweakers of all kinds. (race cars, instruments, anything mechanical.) SLIs would seem to me to make good body/kinesthetic doctors/trainers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jughead View Post
    Your listing the more obvious NT ones that have very particular T classifications. SF and NF would be sales, argumentation, image control, art/music/writing, swaying the crowd. The particular names or genres for esfjs and infps I don't know. PR person, radio host seem good for esfj. For SLI perhaps musician, athlete, synergistic tuners and tweakers of all kinds. (race cars, instruments, anything mechanical.) SLIs would seem to me to make good body/kinesthetic doctors/trainers.
    Sure, I agree.
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    This makes a lot of sense. Dialectical fits my natural approach to the T, and I have the easiest time apprehending things expressed in the Causal-Determinist/formal logic styles.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I really relate to the holographic-panoramic style. I think early on in my socionics hobby I mistook it for Ni. The description is very apt when it speaks of the rotation of structures in the imagination. If I change my perspective, references, and assumptions then the whole image changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I really relate to the holographic-panoramic style. I think early on in my socionics hobby I mistook it for Ni. The description is very apt when it speaks of the rotation of structures in the imagination. If I change my perspective, references, and assumptions then the whole image changes.

    What if the perspective rotates you?


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    haha, yeah i considered that for vortical styles. For the holographic style, the object is static and the observer's perspective of it is dynamic.
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    When I read the Holographical-Panoramic style I always think of slot machines and how you can get different versions of one product by alternating the variables around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
    When I read the Holographical-Panoramic style I always think of slot machines and how you can get different versions of one product by alternating the variables around.
    Thats not a bad example but you should probably try and use your words first next time. Perhaps a link if you can't describe it, being that you are a DA. This is sorta the relation I have with DA, it goes nowhere.
    So on second thought you won't actually change anything due to the HP/VS nature of the interaction with a DA.

    Another thing though is the strangeness that a DA (ILI Charles Darwin) would come up with the theory of natural selection. Did he sorta steal and recombine it?
    Have you guys seen the evolution computer program that trys to navigate a obstacle course? I'll try and find a link.

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    Yeah, he is one of the reasons why I referred to meteorology as a potential field of application for VS thinking style.
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    Twister, that is all.
    I would also like to say that DA thinking styles have an uncanny knack for starting disasterous vortexs even when I might try and quickly influence them away. CD's to a lesser extent. They will act as if nothing could possibly go wrong, or of course for LSE you can't possibly forsee bad shit and thus all my efforts are not even real. Except that I'm not trying to predict the weather a week from now, but if its looks like its going to storm and we are about to go for a long walk, anyone should catch synergistic shit like this. Usually in reality the synergy will have a few more variables, which they can't handle, than my simplistic example.
    Last edited by jughead; 05-05-2011 at 04:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    You can also restate the cognitive styles like:

    CD: Static Reductionist
    DA: Dynamic Reductionist
    HP: Static Holist
    VS: Dynamic Holist
    I am tempted to wonder if my "reductionist" style of speech was something you confused for Ne in your initial typing of me. DA fits me to the letter.
    Last edited by Gilly; 05-07-2011 at 08:28 PM.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Would a pond of EJ ( or ) data, where if a new drop comes in, the pool of EJ is displaced in ripples in such a manner that can be tracked by IP ( or , aarrgg unintentional pun ) be a good graphical representation of Vortigal Cognition?


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    Nice! especially starting at 1:45 and on out... I assume the "static" orange train-track type vortex would be the IP / elements, and it's the "dynamic" / EJ elements that are sparks of light, always following a sort of path determined by the IP elements?

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    ^ I'm a clear MBTI P type, could never be J in that system... so maybe I should translate to TiNe, as I initially tried, who knows. Otherwise, typical P characterstics from MBTI translate to Socionics irrationality, at least in IP/Ip case, and correlation fails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I've noticed this in my ISFp mom, where she'll have these little talks with me about how there is no such thing as a 'right way' or dependable course of action to take in any given situation. I more understood this as her catching on to my E6 ticks though.
    I think DA thinking kind of necessitates this approach, because the overriding concern is to maintain a form of balance inherent in dynamic-negativist thinking, of keeping certain factors under control for the purpose of preventing negative outcomes. Interestingly enough DA thinkers are all at the beginning of their quadras in terms of quadra progression, likely serving as a necessary harness of sorts for their overly ambitious quadrant mates: static Positivists seek to create some form of extant priority, while dynamic negativists head off detrimental consequences or impinging factors. The other pair, holographic and vortex, are focused on producing a specificsingle effect rather than something intended to be (semi) permanent. Vortex thinking looks for the opportune moment to strike, while holographic shifts perspective in order to take advantage of the situation.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    I'll try to come up with other examples. Ask questions.
    From what I understand of it, VS is basically just looking at complex, fundamentally irreducible systems and generating a holistic vision of how that system works? Or is that how VS views all systems and not just the complex ones?

    Like, a VS could look at economics, a fundamentally organic system where some kind of stability manifests out of continuous, chaotic changes brought both by the actions of people within the system and by global events out of control of anyone (earthquakes, for instance). From this observation of this system, what kind of conclusions would a VS type draw from it?

    Also, what are the hallmarks of VS thought? From what I understand of it, it just seems to be all about a completely unstructured projectile vomiting of stream of consciousness thought, constantly skipping back to previously made points to mention things that might be relevant but could have been forgotten when one was first making that point and constantly going on tangents that are only tenuously related to the main point. Is that about right?

    Also, would happen to know of any videos featuring a VS type just thinking out loud? That might be more elucidating than anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Another video example, this one from Milton Friedman (Te-ISTp)
    I love that video. ISTp, huh? I thought he'd been pegged as Gamma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashton View Post
    Each of the cognitive syles engenders a tendency to conceptualize reality colored from a certain sort of orientation (further modulated by a type's IEs). So with VS comes the tendency, as you put it, to apprehend phenomena holistically in fundamental irreducible complexity. I should probably point out that no type is bound to any prescribed limitations (IMO) by their cognitve style—all we're talking about is a characteristic orientation that can often be observed thematically underpinning a person's worldview(s).
    Just to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you here, this would mean that a VS type isn't necessarily locked and bound into seeing the world and the phenomena that make it up as irreducibly complex, but they prefer to see and interact with them that way?

    Also, would this produce a natural skepticism of overly-simplistic explanations?

    Of the most pivotally frustrating aspects of VS cognition, is that it frequently culminates in very generalized inferences of an incredibly non-demonstrable kind
    Sort of like, "I know how this works. I have no idea how to articulate it to you in a way you'll understand implicitly, but... you know, I mean, I understand it. I know it works." This I can see would contribute to Ni-VS type's feeling of being the "voice in the wilderness" with their insight.

    plagued by appeals to chronic indeterminism
    Not sure I understand this bit, but to have a go at it, it would mean that VS types think that systems work essentially because people will them to?

    The article also mentioned the use of substantive reasoning. Would that essentially look like, "It's there. If it didn't work, it wouldn't be there, so obviously it works" ?


    I'd say that description applies pretty well to any Involutory (Result) type—that is, both HP and VS cognition. The main difference being that HP construals will be more geared towards prescribing some structural representation, whereas VS construals will be more about describing some functional operation.
    So that's how VS' dynamism fills in for HP's staticness and vice-versa. VS describes how a system works and HP describes why. But how do their respective positivity and negativity fill in for one another?
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    Thanks Ashton (especially for the videos, they make us SEEs really happy)!

    I'm in the Wentworth Miller (Prison Break actor) interview now, and it's very revealing - I see Positivist definitely, and I'm seeing, more or less, a loose but high-quality arrangement of logic from him, for lack of a better wording, one that's much less fragile and rigid than the sequential chain type thing formed by Causal-Determinist cognition (and at the very least, I can recognize it as the Positivist one that's not CD)...

    I'll next check out Milton Friedman, then Alton Brown (who I recall as being typed ESE), and I feel a chart coming on soon...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashton
    I like it a lot too. He typically gets pegged as INTp AFAIK, but I vehemently disagree with this. The usual reasoning goes, "oh, economist… money, must be Gamma! talks about theroetical shit… must be NT!" Stupid.
    at least those arguments are unambiguous and coherent, unlike much of the tripe being spouted about cognitive styles that any point can be used to rationalize one typing as easily as another.

    you could, for example, just as easily have pointed at Friedman's painstaking empiricism as an indication of his being a Negative/Process (DA) type.

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