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Thread: ENTjs-LIEs messing up relationships by being rude and/or domineering

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    Default ENTjs-LIEs messing up relationships by being rude and/or domineering

    I know two LIE women who do this. The one I'm closest to knows of this tendency in herself, but does it time and again almost as if she can't help herself (to some extent I think don't think she can, mostly bc of the way she was raised + in her career she's top dog) and often has no idea unless someone tells her or explains. What is your experience or observation of this?
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    As a LIE ive always been told this... thats my experience. One of the reason why im reluctant to peruse serious relationships. I wouldnt say i mess anything up, but i do always want to be in control. I blame that on my anxiety but *shrug*

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    I know two LIE women who do this. The one I'm closest to knows of this tendency in herself, but does it time and again almost as if she can't help herself (to some extent I think don't think she can, mostly bc of the way she was raised + in her career she's top dog) and often has no idea unless someone tells her or explains. What is your experience or observation of this?
    Just read any type description of LIE's. They all describe LIE's as seeming to be oblivious to social norms.

    A benefactor in a long relationship with a beneficiary would be expected to see the beneficiary as someone who needs their advice but is unable to implement it. A screw-up, in other words.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...efit-relations

    My SLI supervisor son has told me that I screw up most of my decisions. And yet, somehow, I survive. I might even say I prosper. It must be by pure accident.

    You say the woman in question is at the top of her field. Must be another accident.

    Just let it go. You can't help her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Just read any type description of LIE's. They all describe LIE's as seeming to be oblivious to social norms.

    A benefactor in a long relationship with a beneficiary would be expected to see the beneficiary as someone who needs their advice but is unable to implement it. A screw-up, in other words.
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...efit-relations

    My SLI supervisor son has told me that I screw up most of my decisions. And yet, somehow, I survive. I might even say I prosper. It must be by pure accident.

    You say the woman in question is at the top of her field. Must be another accident.

    Just let it go. You can't help her.
    Thank you for reminding me of that component of intertype relations (not sarcasm ). It has been a while since I looked at those descriptions, and that helps me maintain my temper + humility bc I do feel the second LIE I mentioned is a "screw-up" in this area, and I take offense at times...I will try to do better about that, but the person is just so overbearing and I have felt forced to go along due to LIE's role in my life...I'm just about finished bowing to that kind of pressure, though...

    (She's top dog bc she is very intelligent and very no-nonsense, which is important in her career. She's also an extremely hard worker...you LIEs really can be remarkable w that work ethic and energy. I don't intend to flatter you; it's just true ime.)


    @tryingtodobetter @Adam Strange @other LIEs -- What is the best way to deal w LIEs in such cases -- when they/you seem overbearing, is it best to just maintain firm boundaries and be polite but firm? I have been failing at this bc of feeling a need to please this person, who has only become more and more demanding and entitled. I almost never have problems w this kind of thing, but bc of the LIE's role in my life (which I have no real choice about), I feel trapped...and pissed off
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by tryingtodobetter View Post
    As a LIE ive always been told this... thats my experience. One of the reason why im reluctant to peruse serious relationships. I wouldnt say i mess anything up, but i do always want to be in control. I blame that on my anxiety but *shrug*
    Fwiw, the second LIE is married to an ESI, and while the LIE does run the show (at least publicly), they both seem to be very happily married.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    Thank you for reminding me of that component of intertype relations (not sarcasm ). It has been a while since I looked at those descriptions, and that helps me maintain my temper + humility bc I do feel the second LIE I mentioned is a "screw-up" in this area, and I take offense at times...I will try to do better about that, but the person is just so overbearing and I have felt forced to go along due to LIE's role in my life...I'm just about finished bowing to that kind of pressure, though...

    (She's top dog bc she is very intelligent and very no-nonsense, which is important in her career. She's also an extremely hard worker...you LIEs really can be remarkable w that work ethic and energy. I don't intend to flatter you; it's just true ime.)


    @tryingtodobetter @Adam Strange @other LIEs -- What is the best way to deal w LIEs in such cases -- when they/you seem overbearing, is it best to just maintain firm boundaries and be polite but firm? I have been failing at this bc of feeling a need to please this person, who has only become more and more demanding and entitled. I almost never have problems w this kind of thing, but bc of the LIE's role in my life (which I have no real choice about), I feel trapped...and pissed off
    I'm really surprised you are having a problem with this. It kind of confirms my belief that IEE's are really nice people who try to get along but who also have hard internal boundaries.

    First, you don't need to try to please LIE's. If you want to solidify your relationship with them, just show them that you are a loyal friend but you are not going to do whatever they want.
    That will effectively achieve a lock.

    The best thing to do when a LIE challenges you is to realize that to the LIE, they are (probably) not trying to dominate you. (If they want to dominate you, they will try to crush you completely and forever. This almost never happens, as long as the LIE thinks the other person is even slightly a good person, and even then, the LIE will doubt the truth of their assessment.) We LIE's have very weak Fi, and we have a very hard time understanding how much people value things. Any things. People, beliefs, their dogs, etc. And so what we do is we question hard. It can seem like confrontation, but it is not intended to be confrontational, it is intended to be clarifying. Like, "Do you really believe this, and why do you think it is important?"
    If you tell a LIE that they are full of BS, and this is why, they will respect you, because you are now a source of reliable information, not BS. Ignore them, blow them off, and they will think you are worthless.
    If a LIE gets mad at you (which is a rare thing but it happens, just as your dog might bite you sometimes - dog laws and people laws do not correspond one-to-one), just politely disengage, walk away and give them some time to think about it. Odds are good that if you don't get an apology, you will get their respect, they will change their behavior (this might take several iterations) and they will actually forget there was ever a problem in an hour or two. We LIE's are forgetful positivists and are the opposite of ESI's, who are negativists and never forget.

    To summarize, you should not bow to pressure in order to please an LIE. They won't respect you or like you more for it. We like people who tell the truth, and who don't do stupid things. If you don't make your feelings clear, the LIE will assume that either you don't care or aren't qualified to run your life, and will try to run it for you. I suggest you tell the LIE that you are happy with your decisions which are right for you, and you don't need input in that area. Now, if the LIE is telling you how to do a job, you might listen to them and try their methods, but if they don't work out for you, tell the LIE that you are having a hard time implementing their decisions. The LIE will look at you as a reasonable person and will see the failure of method as an inefficient mismatch between the LIE's suggested method and its real implementation, and will (most probably) try to work with you so you can do your job any way you like, as long as it works better.

    LIE's try to maximize efficiency in processes. We are not there to win popularity contests or put people down. LIE's simply don't see interpersonal values very well at all, so we just go for what works best with the people we have, and usually, experienced LIEs know that people work best if they are genuinely happy, doing their own thing.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-28-2016 at 11:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    Fwiw, the second LIE is married to an ESI, and while the LIE does run the show (at least publicly), they both seem to be very happily married.
    Thank you very much for that. It is nice to hear.

    I know it is predicted, but I haven't experienced it yet.

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    I generally like LIEs except when they have zero self awareness and go overboard with their Se HA; but I find that having creative Ni can make them more introspective . Also word to Adam Strange; I do see points where LIEs screw up and unless I really dislike them or if they've done anything really dumb (I once scolded an Ni-LIE friend, like, are you 12? at the age of 12?), I don't look down on them; but hey, the next time an LIE irritates me, I'll remember how some ESFjs have been incredibly rude, bossy and condescending with me (that Fi ignoring, argh).

    And generally the nice thing about being polite and concise when telling an LIE what they could do a little better regarding human relationships is that, I find that they are willing to take it if it will make real improvements. I like the positivists of the gamma quadra; very dedicated to constantly improving when healthy .

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    I mess up regularly in the way you explained it, but there is a reason behind this rudeness and domination. In a nutshell, it's fear. Te is practical and wants to control this process of practicality, which subdues focus on human relationships. I'm not used to engage in them since I am busy doing all sorts of things that help me achieve my goals. So I'm terribly insecure in the relationship realm due to lack of practise (= focus on it). When this weakness is threatened, of course I want to show I'm in charge out of incertitude.

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    All Te base do this; repressed Fi

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    I know two LIE women who do this. The one I'm closest to knows of this tendency in herself, but does it time and again almost as if she can't help herself (to some extent I think don't think she can, mostly bc of the way she was raised + in her career she's top dog) and often has no idea unless someone tells her or explains. What is your experience or observation of this?
    Yes.

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    Go find ESIs who will like you for who you are... The world needs more domineered ESIs IMO. (OK, I just know a handful of irritating ESIs, not ESIs in general.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    Go find ESIs who will like you for who you are... The world needs more domineered ESIs IMO. (OK, I just know a handful of irritating ESIs, not ESIs in general.)
    lol...when an ESI gets involved the LIE is not really in charge

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    Who's the dominant one in duality is an individual process, what we want to talk about is LIE behaviour that is dominant in a negative way: disrespectful, hurtful, inconsiderate, unethical, egocentric. Aka a lot of things I do.

    Example time! My SEI brother could probably write a ballad on my rude instructions. Advising him as he does his homework (he still can't get it done by himself) I tell him how to act, what to do next, what standards to fulfil, how to execute this and that all the time. I mean, I have to, since he can't get started and wants me to help him. Then I expect that he understood the principle and repeats my instruction. But no, he doesn't understand. Then I end up doing all the exercises because the task has to be done properly and he will get into trouble when nothing is finished, which is worse than depending on me. The other approach, letting him figure it out and THEN help - doesn't work either. He's smart but too lazy to make use of it and wants work to be playful and all. That takes too long for me, I can't afford the physical energy either. The last time I tried to be less egocentric it was fun but my entire afternoon was ruined.

    He never accepts my efforts but I always do it again since this is the only way I feel that I can help him so I am persistently impatient with him. Having a conflictor sister-brother relationship sucks, especially as I know that I do wrong things, I try to improve it but it constantly goes back to "complete opposites". My brother is an enneagram 7 and I'm a 3, our motivations are oppositional as well (power/pleasure-seeking VS success/love-seeking). He doesn't like cuddles or texting, his love language is quality time and time is something I don't want to/can provide. Sometimes I feel guilty and irresponsible.

    Of course, he does just fine when his ESE tutor visits us. I want to copy his methods but I'm not patient and charismatic like him.

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    Rude and domineering are learned characteristics; they are not type specific. I have met people who were like that but when one cares enough to dig deeply into why, one usually discovers that it's because these people have been treated like that. LIEs need to be able to control the agenda because of their own information processing style/structure but how they do that varies greatly from charming to debasing. Other types are certainly not above using negative tactics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange
    To summarize, you should not bow to pressure in order to please an LIE. They won't respect you or like you more for it. We like people who tell the truth, and who don't do stupid things. If you don't make your feelings clear, the LIE will assume that either you don't care or aren't qualified to run your life, and will try to run it for you.
    Ah I don´t know if this applies to everyone of a given type.

    I certainly know many LIEs who do not try to run anyone´s life (but definitely do not let everyone run theirs).
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Ah I don´t know if this applies to everyone of a given type.

    I certainly know many LIEs who do not try to run anyone´s life (but definitely do not let everyone run theirs).
    Darn it! I knew when I said this that my statement was not completely accurate. FDG is correct. LIE's won't try to run your life. We actually hope that you can run your own life just fine and don't need any help.

    The only time we get involved with other people's lives is when their actions or interests intersect ours. I think this takes three forms:

    Friendship or Romance: We like and admire the other person, so messing with their lives or trying to change them in any way is like pouring sand in the machinery. It is not likely to make that person better, so we don't do it.

    Work: If someone is doing a great job, we observe them and learn what we can. If someone is struggling, we try to help. Not exactly out of the goodness of our hearts, but rather because people who aren't happy and aren't working to their full potential are inefficient and are wasted resources. If someone is unhappy or is doing a terrible job and can't or won't change, then we might encourage them to move to a job that fits them better. This makes everyone happier. (<This is actually what I should have said, instead of saying that we try to run peoples lives.)

    General population: We try to be polite and move on. You never know when you are going to meet that random person again, and the next time you meet, your roles may be reversed. Today, you may be on your way up and they are on their way down, but tomorrow, you could each be in the others shoes, and that person will remember how you treated them.

    Also, as FDG very aptly pointed out, we strongly resist allowing anyone to control us or restrict our freedom in any way. (Strat's Quadra of the Tied Hands ) We don't always succeed at this (no one does), but the freer we are to make our own choices, the happier and more satisfied we will be. If you see an LIE behaving badly, you can be pretty sure it is because we are (temporarily) not free to take the actions that we want.

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    ^ I rarely read your entire post, but I just did...I do not see Ni at all. Si/Te......

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    ^ I rarely read your entire post, but I just did...I do not see Ni at all. Si/Te......
    You are right. The last sentence should have read, "If you see an LIE who is not able to take the actions that they want, you can be pretty sure they will act badly."

    (Frustrated LIE's will get into all sorts of trouble, which can include drinking, fighting, smashing cars, destroying property, or even placing a company in danger (so they can save it), but they will do their very best to make sure that no sentient being is physically harmed in the process.)

    Back on topic, LIE's can sometimes mess up relationships by being rude and domineering, but I think this applies mostly to LIE's who are in a hurry to get their plans underway. As I said, LIE's are rude to people more through neglect than through intention, because rudeness usually causes a break in relations, and LIE's are always thinking of the future potential of the people they meet.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 10-25-2016 at 07:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Also, as FDG very aptly pointed out, we strongly resist allowing anyone to control us or restrict our freedom in any way. (Strat's Quadra of the Tied Hands ) We don't always succeed at this (no one does), but the freer we are to make our own choices, the happier and more satisfied we will be. If you see an LIE behaving badly, you can be pretty sure it is because we are (temporarily) not free to take the actions that we want.
    I´d add something else to your post, I don´t know if it applies to every LIE or it´s just me, but anyhow, if someone starts a confrontation with me (I very very rarely start any form of confrontation irl) it´s basically impossible for me to let it go, even when/if there´s a large power differential. I would rather lose everything in the process than leave the confrontation without winning. I think here ESIs can be helpful in terms of teaching you how and when to pick your battles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    ^ I rarely read your entire post, but I just did...I do not see Ni at all. Si/Te......
    Not really Si, I've yet to see any Si from @Adam Strange. You'd see Ni more easily in LIE-Ni.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chae View Post
    Who's the dominant one in duality is an individual process, what we want to talk about is LIE behaviour that is dominant in a negative way: disrespectful, hurtful, inconsiderate, unethical, egocentric. Aka a lot of things I do.

    Example time! My SEI brother could probably write a ballad on my rude instructions. Advising him as he does his homework (he still can't get it done by himself) I tell him how to act, what to do next, what standards to fulfil, how to execute this and that all the time. I mean, I have to, since he can't get started and wants me to help him. Then I expect that he understood the principle and repeats my instruction. But no, he doesn't understand. Then I end up doing all the exercises because the task has to be done properly and he will get into trouble when nothing is finished, which is worse than depending on me. The other approach, letting him figure it out and THEN help - doesn't work either. He's smart but too lazy to make use of it and wants work to be playful and all. That takes too long for me, I can't afford the physical energy either. The last time I tried to be less egocentric it was fun but my entire afternoon was ruined.

    He never accepts my efforts but I always do it again since this is the only way I feel that I can help him so I am persistently impatient with him. Having a conflictor sister-brother relationship sucks, especially as I know that I do wrong things, I try to improve it but it constantly goes back to "complete opposites". My brother is an enneagram 7 and I'm a 3, our motivations are oppositional as well (power/pleasure-seeking VS success/love-seeking). He doesn't like cuddles or texting, his love language is quality time and time is something I don't want to/can provide. Sometimes I feel guilty and irresponsible.

    Of course, he does just fine when his ESE tutor visits us. I want to copy his methods but I'm not patient and charismatic like him.
    Oh god. Methods and stuff. You are supposed to figure it out and not be a static computer program.

    Do you think this guy was LIE?
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    IME LIEs are usually quite popular, even when they're being little shits. They can be charismatic and funny, but their social paranoia and defensiveness get exhausting after a while. Not to say there aren't classy LIEs out there, but many of them require friends, family, and partners to continually prove their loyalty and good intentions. Calling them out for being manipulative isn't something they take very well, either, though others are expected to weather criticism on a regular basis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    IME LIEs are usually quite popular, even when they're being little shits. They can be charismatic and funny, but their social paranoia and defensiveness get exhausting after a while. Not to say there aren't classy ILEs out there, but many of them require friends, family, and partners to continually prove their loyalty and good intentions. Calling them out for being manipulative isn't something they take very well, either, though others are expected to weather criticism on a regular basis.
    (I guess you mean LIE instead of ILE here) This does not sound like LIEs at all IMO. Needing people to "continually prove" their intentions sounds a lot more like Fe valuing, maybe SLE. Nor do I find LIEs to be socially paranoid, quite the opposite, they don't care much at all about social effects which leads to other problems.

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    Oh people are again arguing narrow stereotypes I see.

    I've seen popular LIEs.

    My ex for one had Fe role going on decently well in public.

    Fe HA would be different with that, not just in public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    (I guess you mean LIE instead of ILE here) This does not sound like LIEs at all IMO. Needing people to "continually prove" their intentions sounds a lot more like Fe valuing, maybe SLE. Nor do I find LIEs to be socially paranoid, quite the opposite, they don't care much at all about social effects which leads to other problems.
    Nope, I meant LIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    Nope, I meant LIE.
    You said LIE, then ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    You said LIE, then ILE.
    Sorry, that was a typo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Oh people are again arguing narrow stereotypes I see.

    I've seen popular LIEs.

    My ex for one had Fe role going on decently well in public.

    Fe HA would be different with that, not just in public.
    It wasn't just that one thing but all of them put together...I do think LIEs can be rather charismatic and funny at times though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    It wasn't just that one thing but all of them put together...I do think LIEs can be rather charismatic and funny at times though.
    I still don't see it as specific to only one type, that list @Emmym put there.

    This is a big problem with Socionics practice, trying to relate everything on the surface to one type or one IE or whatever. That is so surface level that explains about zero things anyway and these kinds of connections do not hold up well at all in reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    I still don't see it as specific to only one type, that list @Emmym put there.

    This is a big problem with Socionics practice, trying to relate everything on the surface to one type or one IE or whatever. That is so surface level that explains about zero things anyway and these kinds of connections do not hold up well at all in reality.
    A bigger problem in my view is people dismissing others' points with meaningless words like "stereotypes" and "surface level."

    -social paranoia and defensiveness
    -require friends, family, and partners to continually prove their loyalty and good intentions
    -being manipulative

    In what sense are the above traits surface level? I would say on the contrary, they are very deep traits that speak volumes about a person's motivations, and they aren't obvious at first glance. If you want you can say they aren't related to type, but there's not really any way to prove that one way or another -- it's just down to what people have personally experienced and validated for themselves. So, there's not much more to say about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    A bigger problem in my view is people dismissing others' points with meaningless words like "stereotypes" and "surface level."
    An even bigger problem is you not fully reading my lines.


    -social paranoia and defensiveness
    -require friends, family, and partners to continually prove their loyalty and good intentions
    -being manipulative

    In what sense are the above traits surface level? I would say on the contrary, they are very deep traits that speak volumes about a person's motivations, and they aren't obvious at first glance. If you want you can say they aren't related to type, but there's not really any way to prove that one way or another -- it's just down to what people have personally experienced and validated for themselves. So, there's not much more to say about that.
    It's not the traits that I called surface level... I said, relating these traits to IEs is what's done on a surface level - superficial connections.

    ...And the biggest problem is not checking out how much these connections hold up in reality.

    There is a way to check, you operationalize the concepts and observe properly.

    P.S: pls don't take the criticism of the theory / its practices personally. I was not attacking you personally in that post.

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