Oh yeah you're right about that... he's made a very successful career.Originally Posted by consentingadult
I still think his way is overkill, though. No wonder he's such a slavedriver...
Oh yeah you're right about that... he's made a very successful career.
I still think his way is overkill, though. No wonder he's such a slavedriver...
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
You should.
/thread
That's because what i envisioned at the time was not Ti-dom, even though i thought it was. Some of my old posts here were literally 4 months into socionic study at the time.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
I think your Ti-PoLR shows up in how inconsistent you are about typing yourself, and how malleable you are when people suggest typings for you that don't make sense - at one point you typed as ILE, while making value judgments about Fi-PoLR behavior that you disapprove of.
Last edited by suedehead; 02-16-2015 at 09:30 PM.
excuse me?
I typed IEE for 5 years... switched to ILE on someone's suggestion, With the exception of the Fi-POLR bit, ILE did fit better than IEE did (i'd felt increasing doubt about IEE for some time -- more than 2 years probably before the suggestion was made). About 1 month of "tentativelY" typing ILE, I realized SEI is actually where it's at, but didn't make the official switch for several months until i had enough confirmation for myself that its the one. Dont think that i changed my typing at the drop of a hat because i'm sooo malleable. People had been ranting about me being ESE for years now. Maybe i should have been more open to the idea. The source of the typing matters a lot to me, and that particular source was more reliable to me at that point in time with the justification that was given. The justification did make sense to me, more sense than remaining IEE. and it was given by someone of the same type, which meant the suggestion was not given in a derogatory way, but a neutral to complimentary one.
I really truly honestly dont care if people see me or accept me as SEI here... i resonate with it the most, and so that's what I'm going to identify as. Whether it's IEE or SEI, either way weak Ti is there, strong Fi is there, Ne/ SI valuing there. SEI is Fe-valuing, which i noticed over the past 2 years i was, has Te-POLR which i am getting more confirmation that I am, and seeks Ti which I believe now with a better understanding of it, that i do (as opposed to Te). If your'e truly analytical enough, you'll realize also that Ti-seeking has been evident in all my behavior too, regardless of the opinions i had regarding nebulously defined terms. As far as Si-dom, that's difficult for me to pinpoint simply because it concerns my normal state of being, and i dont know how it compares to others, but so far information from Ne-doms here seems to suggest my strength with Si processes. Also, irrational, yielding, and process is what i am. Not obstinate and result. So, IEE is out of the question at this point. ILE of course always remains a (more distant) possibility. SEI does make my intertypes work better than either IEE or ILE, incidentally.
I'm not fickle with my typings. BUT if something is not resonating well, i'm not gonna keep forcing it. I am very slow and cautious on such changes however. This was by far not an impulsive decision, but based on a multitude of information, not all of which i can really express in this post (and really dont care to).
any contradictory statements I've made over time were simply because my understanding was erroneous. And my comments on Fi-POLR behavior was simply me expressing lack of resonance with it.
Last edited by Suz; 02-16-2015 at 10:25 PM.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Ti polrs will take what somebody says too literally in a way, forget the natural tempo they had in the relationship. If you look closely you can see this happening with all the SEEs and IEEs on the forum. The inability to structuralize means that you will inevitably fall through the steps in a comical way. I think why ILI works as SEE duals is they are already are so used to seeing this sort of stuff in other people that they are numb to it. They were already laughing at you anyway, so it's no big deal.
yeah. my ILI friend (girl friend) who is happily married to her long time SEE husband have these long winded and amazing conversation and all of it seems to be on Se mostly. She can relax and forget about all the people at the office who bother her and who she's so critical about because their behavior (being a Te type she watches so well) don't match her ideal. Her husband explains the "power" dynamic and the interaction from the point of competition for recognition and she listens. He too takes her quite literally and seriously compartmentalizing and explaining things according to certain literature and things they have read that they can draw on. A very lovely relationship to observe. Very nice.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I suspect EII.
Warm Regards,
Clowns & Entropy
Why does source matter to you?
Why? because if the source is a reliable one, i can actually trust the information. If not, the information is basically as good as no information (sometimes worse, because it misleads). That's why i'm cautious about who i ask which questions (because i've been burned before). If i won't trust the source, i dont even bother asking them usually.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Woe talk about Te polr
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
How do you determine that the source is reliable?
I can't really answer that question. It depends. I guess if they've proven themselves in some way, is the best general way i can put it.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
ok got nothing against Te PoLR for you
What was it you thought was a Ti-dom thing when you responded negatively to ArchonAlarion's Ti description? When you were a newbie I mean
i dont even remember, it was soo long ago...ok got nothing against Te PoLR for you
What was it you thought was a Ti-dom thing when you responded negatively to ArchonAlarion's Ti description? When you were a newbie I mean
I was just confused... about everything. But it's so easy to be confused yet think you got it perfectly in this arena.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
Heh oki dont even remember, it was soo long ago...
I was just confused... about everything. But it's so easy to be confused yet think you got it perfectly in this arena.
I am resurrecting this thread bc I found a post on another forum that I think is a great example of Ti PoLR.
This is from a discussion on how different people price their art:
I'm not a mathematician, I'm an artist. Therefore I price my works according to what I FEEL that I choose charge.
It's all about a mix of common sense (I know that good sense is not that common) and flip of the coin.
Besides, it's all relative. What one thinks about charging now, can be something totally different tomorow.
Edit: Now I'm second-guessing myself. Maybe this is Te PoLR :blush: Any thoughts?
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra
Even though it is money related which may make you think Te, I do think it is Ti polr and not Te polr. Te polr hits are more about being criticized for lacking existing knowledge. For example, if a customer started giving crap to Te polr employee for not knowing certain details about a product on the spot, that would be a Te polr hit.
What we have here however is a failure to adequately analyze something internally. Since this art was handmade and therefore unique, this person couldn't use Te to copy the price of an identical product and was forced to use internal logic to determine a suitable price. This person was clearly not able to do that very well and reacted negatively to being criticized on it, therefore it does indeed sound like Ti polr.
Ti-PoLR: lack of logic, consistency and clarity; inability to organize one's mind around a certain topic/train of thought - not related to physical organization. Also, a strong emphasis on personal information over impersonal info. Because of both of these issues, might really struggle with something like computer programming...
When I talk to people who are Fi-PoLR, I almost 'feel' their lack of mental organization. It usually presents itself as a lack of structure, coupled with really warm, sympathetic ('sappy') vibes. I almost 'feel' this. It's a really strange experience for me, and very frustrating for them....
I repeat again: this has nothing to do with physical organization.... (which I consider Te)
EDIT: I also assume Ti has nothing to do with following rules and regulations, which seems similar to physical organization and therefore Te again...
Last edited by jason_m; 01-07-2016 at 06:05 AM.
I think it's weak/devalued Te but it's way too late for me to explain myself so just take it with a grain of salt.
Well just as an abstract look at how I think HA vs POLR (both T in this case -- the 2 sides of T) works: I think the gist is the HA+creative are supposed to be a compensatory pair, whereas the polr is that aspect of T which does not compensate. Being in the same principle (static) as the ego runs on, it could threaten the ego, in part because it can modify the base validly itself, and the significance of this is that this places stress on what constitutes valid application of the creative -- after all, the ego is more relatively identified with the creative and more absolutely with base, so as long as the modification of the base produces a valid application of the base's principle, which contradicts the given application of the creative, the creative must comply.
This seems to me very relevant in understanding how the polr constitutes a place of misestimation/painfulness.
Ti PoLR sounds like they can't and don't care to have logic flow that makes sense to anyone else but them. When pressured to restructure it into something that does meet norms for logic flow and coherency, they are stressed. If you keep at it, they eventually go into a mania from not being able to process the logic. The same can be said for trying to make them abide by logical systems.
Friend at work is IEE, and when he tries to logically order instructions for people to follow, he makes basically no sense to anyone. I just translate it for him to everyone else.
Ex's IEE daughter would get confused and depressed and abused looking if she was repeatedly told Ti-related things or rounded back into rule structures repeatedly.
Oh, I should also add that their PoLR to HA shift (preferred nature) is "F logically making sense. Lets just do it." Usually couples with, "who cares what others think about how we appear to them, the sensations are good" Se->Si.
This assumption is wrong: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1075367
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
I supervise IEEs - not because they don't follow rules, but because their logic for not following the rules is weak. Someone who just follows rules for the sake of following rules does not sound Ti at all to me! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament: "They (SJs) follow the rules and conventions of their cohort or group and expect others to as well." Read that article and tell me that they sound Ti...
Last edited by jason_m; 01-07-2016 at 11:23 PM.
SJ isn't TIM. People may act through any of their elements. Someone behaving as an SJ could be in any combination of the Ego.
It is important to note that Rules and such imply the Force necessary to enact the rules. For IEE, Ti blocked with Se does imply rules.
Whereas the EII will adhere to the logic of rules and disregard much of the force behind them, the IEE will adhere to the force behind the rules and disregard much of the logic.
For the IEE, the logic to create systems, rules, ordering of objects (including thoughts) will not be present. As such, any attempts to have them follow the rules will require Force, Se, as the primary means for compliance. Due to Ti being PoLR and having the inability to adapt to the rules being the norm, the adherence will usually entail using Force under the pretense of creating better Relationships; I.e., they don't follow any rules of society because they "make sense," but rather because they want society to be happy. Which, in turn, leads to them being able to open up the Possibilities present in the world.
It can manifest as stubborn resistance to (or conversely, insistence upon) rules and traditional hierarchical structures eg. family structure, where someone is definitively "the parent" and another "the child", and behavior follows only along those lines. ExFPs may alternate between being "the parent" and "the child" depending on their mood, or curiosity (more an ENFP thing) or monetary sway (more ESFps).
Also, a weak ability to track others' train of thought, perceive its weak points. This is usually compensated for by significant emotional pressure (4D Fe). They can even lose track of their own train of thought, not realizing they've contradicted themselves or changed their argument halfway through, due to constant bombardment of new information through Se + Ne
Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 01-09-2016 at 10:16 AM.
Holographic to a CD is very obvious. In IEE this manifests as "I know turning the tables now wasn't going to help me win. I just felt like doing it."
Excuse me, are you quoting Kersey here as argument? Let me tell you about Kersey: in 2005 I lent "Please Understand Me II" to a friend. I never bothered to ask it back. Greater Forer effect bullshit has hardly been written.I supervise IEEs - not because they don't follow rules, but because their logic for not following the rules is weak. Someone who just follows rules for the sake of following rules does not sound Ti at all to me! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_temperament: "They (SJs) follow the rules and conventions of their cohort or group and expect others to as well." Read that article and tell me that they sound Ti...
Anyway, you seem to have completely missed the point of my post. Your loss, not mine...
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Thank you! You've been a big help...
Rules= A product made by Se creative to serve the leading Ti/Fi.
I think we realize, but we consider new information (even if introduced through thought processes) to be reason enough to change track. It's fine to contradict and change based on changes of context/information/priorities. I know when I contradict myself, but in the moment I think it's worth it because it's not a priority and Ne prevails. This is not an issue for me until you point it out to me. Then I get defensive because Ti is just so tedious and lame and because you are hitting my PoLR, obviously.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Another words insightful
I think Ti has to do with shuffling information to make a system of thought I think IEE and SEE just guzzle up information and have a vast knowledge as is related to extrovert however they don't want to put too much emphasis on the logic of it
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
I realize that the types in the video are not right, but this is almost what Ti-PoLR is like (and why I supervise it):
Last edited by jason_m; 02-12-2016 at 07:33 AM.
IEE: Meditation will do x, y, z.
SEI: Why?
IEE: It just will, okay
IEE: When you kill an animal and eat it the negative experience of the animal getting murdered is transferred to you
LII: How?
IEE: Because the animals are scared when they die and when you eat them you absorb their energy
LII: Okay....
IEE: There is an exception to every rule
Me (ILE): Then there must be an exception to that rule which would mean there has to be a least one rule there is no exception to
IEE: *Annoyed* Well I'm going to keep believing that anyways
LII: *Subtly smirks, laughing internally*
IEE: I hate teenagers
Me (ILE): That means you hate yourself, because you're only 19
IEE: I'm not a teenager
Me: Well, I mean, technically you are
IEE: No I'm not
Me: ...but you are
IEE: I'm mature for my age and the majority of my friends are 20+ and everyone tells me they think I'm 25 when they meet me
Me: Okay, but all of that doesn't change the fact that you're nineteen and being nineteen makes you still a teenager
IEE: *gets genuinely mad and goes home*
SEE: I chugged a shit ton of beer last night
Me (ILE): Define "shit ton"
SEE: *blank stare*
Me: *cricket*
SEE: like, a lot
Me: Okay then
IEE: You can't just start talking about something and expect people to listen, you have to prove you're an expert first
LII: Who decides when you're an expert? Who decides when the person who decides you're an expert decides they're an expert in deciding who is an expert
IEE: *annoyed*
SEE: When are we ever going to have to use this sort of math in real life. (This was back in HS. It was those things where you had to balance each side of the equation and there were tonnes of variables)
SEI Teacher: Well, you won't actually have to do these sorts of equations, but these sorts of equations help you with thinking logically.
SEE: So, never
SEI: Well not directly, but they help teach [mental structure]
SEE: So, never
IEE: My BF and I think having a child will make us happier
ESE: Actually, I believe that most studies have found that couples are less happy after they have childre
IEE: Do you think I don't know that? I'm not stupid. I know that having children usually makes couples less happy but I think we're in a different situation than most couples right now.
ESE: ...okay then
These are some IRL examples I have experienced of Ti POLR. I know more IEEs than SEEs, so there are more of them. In my experience some of the more common manifestations of Te-Ha/Ti-POLR are:
-Want to look like, or self proclaim yourself as an authority of topics
-Ad Hominem attacks in an attempt to lower the credibility of the person making an argument
-Not liking people who question statements made
e.g., IEE: X is true
Someone: What's you're argument? You're source?
IEE: I'm not here to mindlessly argue, I'm just stating facts
-Somewhat more prone to hypocrisy than other types
-Having difficulty with understand what people mean when they say things a certain way:
in SEEs this usually manifests in the sense that they see words as having one exact meaning and don't understand how the meaning of words can be influenced by context
IEEs seem to have the opposite problem, which is that they extract what "they would have meant" if they said X.
e.g., Ti Ego: "Maybe you should get an STD test"
IEE Internally: If I told someone to get an STD test it would be because I assumed they were too stupid to realize that themselves and don't take care of their health
IEE externally: Are you saying I don't take care of my health?
Ti Ego: What? No? How did you even get that?
As a Ti ego this is the most common source of "conflict" I see in regards to Delta NFs, particularly IEEs. They have the tendency to accuse you of saying X because that's what they would have meant if they used the words you used. In contrast, Alpha NTs listen to the entire context of the sentence and fit the best potential meaning of each word to every other word to try and "map" the speakers cognitive state to better understand what the speaker "really meant." The whole "principle of charity" was probably made up by an Alpha NT getting pissed off at Delta NFs
This is also why you can get a lot of Delta NFs flying accusations of people being these terrible monsters only to go and listen to the original source (Usually Beta ST) and be like "meh, they seemed decently reasonable" Granted, this is from a Ti ego perspective
That type of 'philosophy' is what essentially inspired this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ple-of-fake-NiIEE: When you kill an animal and eat it the negative experience of the animal getting murdered is transferred to you
LII: How?
IEE: Because the animals are scared when they die and when you eat them you absorb their energy
LII: Okay...
I'm a bit new to socionics, but I am definitely ESFP. An older one (38). I have had the problem of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, my entire life. Is that Ti polr?
So, a good example would be, let's say I believe in someone's teachings. I put a lot of stock in this person, I believe in this person. At some point down the line...lets say I find one thing I do not like about them..,lets say they believe in something I certainly don't believe in. Well, I throw out everything about this person - the good and the bad, because, well, if they could think THAT weird thing is true, it makes me question everything about them and their entire thought process.
I'm just an effin ray of sunshine
I am laughing because I've had these conversations, almost verbatim, with people.
I'm just an effin ray of sunshine
Holy shit, this is so real. One time an IEE from a different forum misinterpreted a post of mine directed towards them and thought that I was trying to tell them to go kill themselves (they did not end up trying to go kill themselves). I could vaguely see how what I said could have been misconstrued in that way, but the only other person who agreed with how she saw it was an ESI who was biased against me in the first place. Nobody else formed such false conclusions. In particular, other Ti ego types were supportive of where I was coming from and how it was ridiculous for my words to have been misconstrued in the way the Fi ego types did.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I use to walk on egg shells around what I now realize were mostly Fi egos. After learning socionics I have realized there really isn't any hope, especially with the Delta ones. Despite being Ne EGO I actually find Gamma SFs to be more tolerable/easy to navigate because you just have to be very blunt and even if their use of language is lacking in nuance you can usually assume how they will interpret something: just assume how the majority of the public would take it. Plus, as a general rule they have thicken skins and have a better sense of humor. Or at least the ESFps do. With Delta NFs you really don't know how the fuck they're going to interpret what you say and they won't make effort to try and see it from your side even if you do try and explain what you actually meant (despite their claims of being the most competent in this area). Now I just say whatever I think around them and if they get pissed off I just shrug.
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