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Thread: Is this Website an example of 'fake Ni'?

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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Default Is this Website an example of 'fake Ni'?

    http://www.near-death.com/

    Why do I ask? I am a philosophy major, so I have immersed myself in (I guess) Ni, as philosophy probes our deepest, most profound questions, insights - and even fears: e.g., (most relevant to this post) 'Is there an aferlife?' That exact question is what lead me to find that website. However, the more I studied the site, the more confused I became. For instance, according to those who have had an NDE, the highest good is 'love', but we know from socionics that there are different kinds of functions and therefore different kinds of 'good.' In other words, is love any better than 'peace' (Si) or 'happiness' (Fe) or 'ethics' (Fi)? Also, the site is replete with contradiction. For instance, we are apparently suffering in this life for our 'sins' in our past lives, but, at the same time, 'there is no evil.' I mean, is there evil or not? If there are sins, then there is evil. If there is no evil, then there are no sinners and therefore no sins... You can't have it both ways! I dug further. Here is a quote (from the website creator) about Adolf ******:

    "Evil and the devil do not exist. What people consider 'evil' is really ignorance and stupidity. ****** was not an evil man per se. He was just so incredibly ignorant he was practically retarded at a spiritual level. Such people are to be pitied.and prevented from acting out their ignorance. This is the greagt lesson from World War II. Unconditional love should be extended even to people such as Adolf ******. It is difficult to hate a person who is retarded." (Kevin Williams)

    That leads to the final question: in socionics terms, does the website not make sense because it is a form of 'fake Ni?' But how could that be? A lot of NDEs repeat what is posted on that site - almost word-for-word! What is going on?

    (I.e., is there simply no afterlife and it's all just a big sham or is it just misinformation?... I mean, this is a constant theme to Near Death Experiences, and so I cannot come up with an explanation...)

    Jason
    Last edited by jason_m; 12-11-2015 at 12:02 PM.
    LII

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    The way I see it is cognitive functions are tools that we use to shape our perceptions of the world. Our beliefs play a big part as well and just because someone doesn't consciously think they believe something doesn't mean that the belief isn't strong in their subconscious. That is why I make a regular practice of looking at what underlying beliefs may be influencing a situation since they can lead to a lot of miscommunication and conflict in myself and with others.

    Once you're truly dead you don't need or use them anymore. When someone is resuscitated, and there is no brain damage, their cognitive functions kick back in and they described their experience in a way that is familiar to them and usually based on underlying beliefs. That is why some atheists describe a more Christian-like experience. Their subconscious has taken in all that info over the years and even though they consciously rejected religion it was still buried deep inside their psyche. I doubt if it is fake Ni in action. It is about people trying to make sense of something that most human brains can't comprehend so their stories all sound familiar. It might be even harder for someone who does not have Ni as a base function since those who use it are already aware of the limitations of expressing their experiences to others in words and have found ways to express themselves in a way that allows them to interact with the world and not come off as completely looney.

    I save my looney for people of like mind or for situations where I don't care if I come off a bit crazy. Like on here. I pass for perfectly "normal" in my day to day interactions in the real world 'cause I learned to keep my mouth shut around most people and talk about the weather and other mundane things. Thankfully I have people who are Ni friendly around me so not much of a problem for me. Anyway I am willing to bet that the feeling of "love" is the closest word they can find to describe their experience.

    What happens when you die is probably based on your strongest underlying beliefs. I had a NDE and it was pretty sad and full of darkness which is exactly what my life was full of when I died. I was surrounded in complete darkness but felt and heard others all around me that were sad and regretful. I am willing to bet that if I died now my experience would be very different but that was the only way I could describe it to others when I was revived. If I had stayed "dead" I believe that darkness would have turned to something else eventually, once I shed the last of my human perception. What would happen next I have contemplated for years since but have not come to any solid conclusion. The only thing I know with complete confidence is that this is my last life in human form. I rarely tell anyone of my NDE because I don't think most people can comprehend what happened to me and it leads to a debate. I have no desire to debate or convince someone of something I already know. At least about this sort of thing.

    Edit: Just want to add that I feel people who meet angels or demons (various other religious symbols) are actually confronting their own light and darkness/beliefs of good and evil. It is no wonder they come out of it changed. My own experience had a profound effect on me that I did not truly notice until years later. I did not come back from it believing in either heaven or hell. I came back believing that we are each responsible for our choices and any perceived punishment is self inflicted and will end when we choose to stop punishing ourselves. I found out that is easier said than done. Of course these are only my beliefs so I cannot vouch for the ultimate truth in any of it.
    Last edited by Aylen; 12-11-2015 at 01:45 PM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellyan View Post
    Edit: Just want to add that I feel people who meet angels or demons (various other religious symbols) are actually confronting their own light and darkness/beliefs of good and evil. It is no wonder they come out of it changed. My own experience had a profound effect on me that I did not truly notice until years later. I did not come back from it believing in either heaven or hell. I came back believing that we are each responsible for our choices and any perceived punishment is self inflicted and will end when we choose to stop punishing ourselves. I found out that is easier said than done. Of course these are only my beliefs so I cannot vouch for the ultimate truth in any of it.
    How does that apply to someone who has seriously hurt others? Are you implying that they are their harshest critic in the end? (That's the part of the whole notion that's stumped me...)
    LII

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    "better than 'peace' (Si) or 'happiness' (Fe) or 'ethics' (Fi)?" ------> that's quite an assumption.


    I think Ni sees through the intellectualizing.

    NDE is probably a biological phenomenon of the subjective mind's experiencing of the shutting down of neural waves in the brain's prefrontal cortex. It has been described as a tunnel of white light which is explained in neuroscience. I can't be bothered to look it up. That it is augmented by a person's visions, memories, thoughts and feelings, is a consequence of the physical process itself. To return from such a lived moment to tell the tale is a blessing, yet also a burden for the mind, because it searches for meaning to understand what occurred. In doing so, is at risk of projecting a story, in this instance a Christian framework, upon the event itself, when perhaps there can be no otherworldly account.

    (I think the original mistake of a afterlife philosophy is that there is a solid, individualized soul within each person to begin with. Several major religions refute a soul, including Buddhism. Its my own belief that Christian faiths also discuss the absence of a soul with sermons such as the *holy trinity*. It is not difficult to imagine Jesus whitnessed "the empitness" personally, perhaps when he walked out in to the desert for 40 days while being cared for by John the Baptist?)

    Be that as it may, the psuedo-Ni in the website is probably as you describe it. To be honest I never even looked it up. If it shows like it is being described as, then I don't need to see it myself to know what sorts of philosophies it professes. I have heard it all before.

    Real Ni is a perceptual cognition of many simultaneously occurring circumstances, both internal and external, as they play out in cause-effect relationships. I would say that with Ni people this study is most likely remarkably accurate - they have been doing it their whole lives as default. It is not a narrated, overly reworked, culturally accepted, carbon copied, archetypical fairytale that espouses neat explanations to immensely complex and mysteriously inexplicable and mystical experiences. Anything that removes the subject from reality moves away from true Ni. Ni is grounded together with extroverted sensing and thus always tinged with the tangible world.

    Over-conceptualizing is a sublime thought ritual at best, and mental masturbation at its worst. Of course, everything I say is just an opinion.
    Last edited by wacey; 12-11-2015 at 02:19 PM.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    How does that apply to someone who has seriously hurt others? Are you implying that they are their harshest critic in the end? (That's the part of the whole notion that's stumped me...)
    I can only tell you what I experienced and the beliefs formed because of it. I don't think anyone knows the ultimate truth of what you are asking and I gave up on guru, and spiritual leader, types a long time ago. Their answers just didn't completely sit right with me. It is like asking someone what is the meaning of life. I believe that is how it should be so that we can have this human experience in a pure form but there are people who do see through the veils, sts, and have an ability to share some knowledge that is still heavily influenced by their beliefs but also the inability to interpret the symbolism of what they "see". It all depends on the culture they were born into to and how influenced they are by it and all those underlying beliefs people think they don't have.

    I also think that weak, or ignored, intuition is also responsible for misinformation and even Ni and Ne base will misinterpret symbolism which is often very personal and not as universal as people may believe. That is why they will apply their own insights to everyone. No offense to my Ne friends but they will offer up so many alternate interpretations of the symbolism of my dreams that I have to stop them and tell them that I already know what it means for me personally. Sometimes though someone else will nail it and offer up something I just could not see for myself. It helps me feel connected when they do. It is when it comes to interpreting other people's symbolism that I get a bit disoriented and often resort to Ne to try and help them understand. It is a real annoyance to me to have to use Ne and I do not prefer it but have used it when I felt forced to. It is very unsatisfying. I don't always trust my own Ni or even when I do I feel like it might be rejected so I keep alot of stuff to myself.

    I do believe that in the end we judge ourselves. Even psychopaths will start to lose cognitive functions (I think of them as filters) when dying and something else starts to take over. It is probably why so many have a "life review". I did not have one for the record. I felt the sensation of speeding through a dark tunnel and it was so cold. Then I felt the most alone I had ever felt in my life, even though I could sense and hear others around me, I was actually lonely. Loneliness is not a feeling I experience often so it was even more disconcerting. It was a feeling of complete separation from anything but my own sadness. I think one of my greatest fears up until then was that I was all alone in this world no matter how many people were around me. I did not trust people, for many good reasons, but at the same time I wanted to trust so I put myself in situations where my belief that people were untrustworthy would just be proven over and over again. It is complicated.

    I have done some things that some people might consider evil but not with malicious intent. More because of selfishness and cutting off my empathy so I could get things done and literally survive some situations. All this seemed to come back on me when I "died". The disconnect I forced on myself, in life, was what I felt when I died. It was really horrible to be honest. I came back never wanting to feel that separate from humanity ever again but old habits die hard and it took several major fuck ups to really get it. I am not sure if I even get it completely now but I know I do not want to feel the magnitude of that sense of separation ever again so I do not cut myself off from my empathy. I learned to channel it instead. Empathic connections to everything (not just people) around me had been a burden to me most of my life because I seemed to feel things more deeply than other people around me. I thought I was controlled by forces that were outside of me. I did not know what to do with that so drugs and alcohol were my way of shutting it down.

    Good and evil are subjective ideas/beliefs but I believe we each do have a moral compass of sorts. I don't believe the moral compass is in tune with any religious or man made belief systems. It is something that comes from someplace else. I think once we are in this world it is up to us to either listen to it or not since it is a choice. I have a feeling that when we are dying the filters start to crumble and we see things quite differently without those filters.

    All this to say, I can't tell you what is good and what is evil and how that plays out when we are dead. I have my own ideas but I feel some people have to experience things for themselves and reach their own conclusions and accept their own limitations in this area. That's what I have done.
    Last edited by Aylen; 12-11-2015 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellyan View Post
    I can only tell you what I experienced and the beliefs formed because of it. I don't think anyone knows the ultimate truth of what you are asking and I gave up on guru, and spiritual leader, types a long time ago. Their answers just didn't completely sit right with me. It is like asking someone what is the meaning of life. I believe that is how it should be so that we can have this human experience in a pure form but there are people who do see through the veils, sts, and have an ability to share some knowledge that is still heavily influenced by their beliefs but also the inability to interpret the symbolism of what they "see". It all depends on the culture they were born into to and how influenced they are by it and all those underlying beliefs people think they don't have.

    I also think that weak, or ignored, intuition is also responsible for misinformation and even Ni and Ne base will misinterpret symbolism which is often very personal and not as universal as people may believe. That is why they will apply their own insights to everyone. No offense to my Ne friends but they will offer up so many alternate interpretations of the symbolism of my dreams that I have to stop them and tell them that I already know what it means for me personally. Sometimes though someone else will nail it and offer up something I just could not see for myself. It helps me feel connected when they do. It is when it comes to interpreting other people's symbolism that I get a bit disoriented and often resort to Ne to try and help them understand. It is a real annoyance to me to have to use Ne and I do not prefer it but have used it when I felt forced to. It is very unsatisfying. I don't always trust my own Ni or even when I do I feel like it might be rejected so I keep alot of stuff to myself.

    I do believe that in the end we judge ourselves. Even psychopaths will start to lose cognitive functions (I think of them as filters) when dying and something else starts to take over. It is probably why so many have a "life review". I did not have one for the record. I felt the sensation of speeding through a dark tunnel and it was so cold. Then I felt the most alone I had ever felt in my life, even though I could sense and hear others around me, I was actually lonely. Loneliness is not a feeling I experience often so it was even more disconcerting. It was a feeling of complete separation from anything but my own sadness. I think one of my greatest fears up until then was that I was all alone in this world no matter how many people were around me. I did not trust people, for many good reasons, but at the same time I wanted to trust so I put myself in situations where my belief that people were untrustworthy would just be proven over and over again. It is complicated.

    I have done some things that some people might consider evil but not with malicious intent. More because of selfishness and cutting off my empathy so I could get things done and literally survive some situations. All this seemed to come back on me when I "died". The disconnect I forced on myself, in life, was what I felt when I died. It was really horrible to be honest. I came back never wanting to feel that separate from humanity ever again but old habits die hard and it took several major fuck ups to really get it. I am not sure if I even get it completely now but I know I do not want to feel the magnitude of that sense of separation even again so I do not cut myself off from my empathy. I learned to channel it instead. Empathic connections to everything (not just people) around me had been a burden to me most of my life because I seemed to feel things more deeply than other people around me. I thought I was controlled by forces that were outside of me. I did not know what to do with that so drugs and alcohol was my way of shutting it down.

    Good and evil are subjective ideas/beliefs but I believe we each do have a moral compass of sorts. I don't believe the moral compass is in tune with any religious or man made belief systems. It is something that comes from someplace else. I think once we are in this world it is up to us to either listen to it or not since it is a choice. I have a feeling that when we are dying the filters start to crumble and we see things quite differently without those filters.

    All this to say, I can't tell you what is good and what is evil and how that plays out when we are dead. I have my own ideas but I feel some people have to experience things for themselves and reach their own conclusions and accept their own limitations in this area. That's what I have done.
    Neitzsche said that each different philosophy was actually just a personal confession of the man, or women, who came up with it. So...

    you have to be a light unto yourself...said some guru.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    ****** was not an evil man per se.
    Sure, like Bokassa wich ate people just because was hungry.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    For me Ni seems bit like trajectory. Path emerges and it is like a tunnel, a very dark tunnel and you have lots of dynamite. The stuff you load with that perception is quite irrelevant.

    Had an interaction with an ILI today. We have a common smallish project. The other one is anal trajectorially retentive and the other one is speculative. This is not going to end well.
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    Love is Fi+.

    All people have it, but simply express it in different ways.

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