Ni-creative: Manipulative by nature? (ENTj & ENFj)

[Gilly]

+1

[redbaron]

yup.

[ladyinred]

Another way of looking at is from the perspective of the HA. Ni-creatives would theoretically be unconsciously guided by the exertion of their will. Likely, in their attempts to reach their expected outcomes they tend to impose and force others to do as they wish subtly and unconsciously.

With ESj, they can seem pushy/bossy more as byproduct of their focus on getting things done right away. (Se-demonstrative)

Well, let's break it down: EJs are the most "controlling" of all types, generally speaking, because they tend to take an active dynamic approach: every piece of information that is taken in is weighed out with everything else; everything is relevant, or can be. EJ functions essentially engage in a kind of constant weighing, gauging, and readjusting of tactics based on perceived changes in need or emphasis. So EJs are the most likely to want to "see everything" when it comes to another person or situation; they need the most information to make a decision.

When you couple that with Ni, you get not only an impressionistic long-term orientation as their general mindset, but also the tendency to make assumptions based off of their mindset and treat people in their sphere and their environment as though they are in accord with their mindset or goald, or should be subordinated to them. Sometimes EJs can seem so driven and involved that other people sort of get "swept along" into action with them, while others are either subdued or ignored - this happens on a shorter term, more immediate level with Si-EJs (ie the foreman of a construction site, a person holding the tempo of a party, a platoon commander directing his troops); Ni-EJs, on the other hand, may not always appear to be in immediate control of whatever they are doing, but they tend to put the most emphasis on either overtly gaining a seat of power, or developing some other long-term rapport or influence (ie ******) in order to affect the outcome of whatever they choose to engage in.

I agree that Ni creatives can come across as manipulative and controlling.

IME, Fe/Ni sees people as processes. Unlike FiNe, which cuts to the unchanging essence of who people are, FeNi implies an awareness of where people are coming from and where they're going (emotionally/psychologically). I'm guessing TeNi is similar, but deals with (and "manipulates") more external elements of processes (not emotions) -- this could be why EIEs are more likely to be called manipulative and LIEs are more likely to be called controlling, although of course EIEs can be called controlling and LIEs can be called manipulative.

This differs from Ni leading in that EIEs and LIEs, with Je as the leading function are primarily focused on the "object" (or, in this case, people), even if they perceive that object as existing in a state of permanent transience (related to Ni). So Ni creatives are more likely to act on their their awareness of people as processes, leading to the alleged manipulation.

Ni creative "manipulation" would also be very different from Se ego "manipulation." Se + Fi/Ti is static and will tend towards a more discrete outlook, so their "manipulation" would be directed towards a very specific, even mechanical outcome, like in a game of chess. By contrast, EIE (or, presumably, LIE) manipulation would be a little vaguer, like pushing people in the desired direction without necessarily having a specific idea of what they want and how they're going to get it.

PS. I didn't mean to make Ni/Se types sound evil.

Well in my experience with Ni creatives, they are manipulative.

The way I see it as a Se creative....(please excuse the Ne polr)....
I will do something and the EIE/LIE will go "if you do that Se thing, I will do this"...which makes the Se read the consequence of their actions. For example, I invited an EIE out to a party, the next thing I know, he puts his status on facebook to single and creates an album of family/couple-orientated photos. Another time I gave him the silent treatment (if you want to really worry an EIE do this lol) for months and then all of a sudden his facebook evolves to him commenting on people's party photos with them living it up etc etc.
You can see how Se/Ni influence one another but Se is more direct and less hidden. What makes Ni "manipulative" is that it can draw a person into a "plan" without the individual knowing that they are contributing to something bigger than the immediate reality. I have seen EIEs draw people into conversations/situations/environments just for the sake of some bigger goal they have in mind (eg. they might be seen chatting to a girl....with the girl thinking they are romantically interested in them....when in actual fact they are trying to evoke an emotional response from someone else that they are actually interested in.....THAT ANGERS ME WHEN I SEE IT HAPPEN!!!)..

this is all deadon in my experience

[CILi]

bump

[ladyinred]

bump

thank goodness you bumped this thread!!

[CILi]

Just tryin' to help...

[ladyinred]

thank goodness you bumped this thread!!

Just tryin' to help...

wow, i can be a bitch sometimes. (((hugs)))

[Park]

I definitely can "guide" people in directions, both concretely and emotionally, to serve my purposes. Sometimes I set traps/choices for people without even knowing it. But then I'm something of a pathological liar.

I'm discovering things about you, Gilligan.

[Gilly]

I'm discovering things about you, Gilligan.

I'm destroying your life from the inside out

[Gilly]

There is some really good stuff in this thread for people who might be confused about Ni.

[Park]

WTF are you doing here, Gilly. You ain't no Ni creative.

[Gilly]

WTF are you doing here, Gilly. You ain't no Ni creative.

o.o what am I?

[Slacker]

My parents are Ni creative and they are both on the controlling side. And I'm not just saying that because they're my parents.

[Park]

o.o what am I?

A tall Bostonian.

[Gilly]

Oh. Ok.

[Park]

And an intuitive logical extratim.

[Gilly]

Yeah? Fi PoLR abound?

[Park]

Yeah? Fi PoLR abound?

Yeah, that wouldn't work. Let's stick to ENFj.

And let me reassure you, as long as you give me compliments and feed me Fi, you're in complete control.

[Gilly]

Yeah, that wouldn't work. Let's stick to ENFj.

And let me reassure you, as long as you give me compliments and feed me Fi, you're in complete control.

Lmao.

Don't worry, my dad is a priest and I have a huge Jesus complex; having people ask for my help is, well, just part of the equation.

[Park]

Lmao.

Don't worry, my dad is a priest and I have a huge Jesus complex; having people ask for my help is, well, just part of the equation.

Sweet. [Socionics Trivia:] Did you know that Jesus was an ENFj?

[Gilly]

Nah probably ESI or perhaps EII from what I've read in the Bible.

The Miltonian Satan is Beta extrovert as fuck.

[Slacker]

Jesus is Abbie's dual.

[Park]

You guys screw up my jokes.

[Gilly]

:/

[Fake Intellectual]

I suppose I'm somewhat manipulative in my use of Ni, but I'm still honest in my manipulation. For example, my Ni will time lapse the events of a particular action I could make to get the desired result. For example, in order to get someone to notice something, I will make a gesture in order to communicate to another's subconscious to get what I want. I don't use this for evil though, I still have principles.

[PussyInASarcophagus]

Based invisible hand LIE

[Clarke]

I was thinking about this, and I don't mean in purposefully harmful or sinister way. It just seems that Ni-creatives usually act with a particular result in mind and so naturally act in a way to get people to do what they want or to get a certain response. It's similar to the way an Se-ego might act, but in a lot more subtle and round-a-bout way. I think this also ties in with Se-HA.

The difference with Ni-base is that they would likely focus on the way things are playing out and act only to alter the direction. Ni-creative focuses on the results of their actions instead of seeing how chains of events flow independent of particular actions. Ni-base may be manipulative as well; however, they are more likely to be apathetic because they perceive things to be working out fine the way they are going.

It has been said before that EIE has purposeful emotions, and I think this in itself implies a degree of manipulative tendencies. LIE, by contrast, would be more explicit in their actions, but their motives may be just as hidden.

There have been descriptions that call LIE's "Jack the Exploiter". Whoever gave them that title seemed to perceive LIE's as being manipulative for some reason.

I think that with Ni base, you might have a situation where the person thinks of a certain outcome, and then thinks "how can I alter this outcome"? The flow of information is going from Ni to a judgement function, such as Te. With Ni creative, on the other hand, you would probably have a situation where the person thinks of a certain problem and then thinks "how can I fix this problem?" with Ni. In that case, Ni would be the vision that allows them to fix the problem related to the leading function. The flow of information would be going from something like Te to Ni.

I don't think this would make xIE's seem manipulative by itself. I think that the manipulative part of xIE's might actually be related to their strategic dichotomy. IxI's don't make determined goals, therefore they don't have a major reason to steer resources (such as people) towards those goals. xIE's make goals, therefore for the goals to be effective, they need to steer resources (people) towards them.

They might resemble Se base because Se base types (SxE's) are also strategic.

I guess it's also possible that the flow of information causes the types to be manipulative. I would guess that maybe it's because the base functions are extroverted by nature, and therefore seek to alter the external world.

[Pendulum]

I suppose I'm somewhat manipulative in my use of Ni, but I'm still honest in my manipulation. For example, my Ni will time lapse the events of a particular action I could make to get the desired result. For example, in order to get someone to notice something, I will make a gesture in order to communicate to another's subconscious to get what I want. I don't use this for evil though, I still have principles.

Bro can do Inception in real time completely awake. What a legend.

[Clarke]

Bro can do Inception in real time completely awake. What a legend.

From my experience, it seems like Ni doms just space out and think about possible futures, then go "oh no" to one of them and think of how to prevent it from happening. So we also kind of do inception in real life, but kind of more in an unpurposed way, usually when life is just not that interesting. Also, from my personal experience, it seems like we also space out during conversations and then when we come back to reality, we kind of extrapolate or figure out what the other person could have said through logic and memory. It's a little bit of a risky way to live.

[Pendulum]

From my experience, it seems like Ni doms just space out and think about possible futures, then go "oh no" to one of them and think of how to prevent it from happening. So we also kind of do inception in real life, but kind of more in an unpurposed way, usually when life is just not that interesting. Also, from my personal experience, it seems like we also space out during conversations and then when we come back to reality, we kind of extrapolate or figure out what the other person could have said through logic and memory. It's a little bit of a risky way to live.

I'm being sarcastic because I think it's funny how people mistify Ni and turn it into some kind of superpower or think what they can do is more special than it actually is. Like, what you said can just be boiled down to daydreaming, almost excessively so, it's a good sign of Ni, alright, and I'm guilty of it too although mine are usually fantastical in nature, but the point is that it's not some mastermind ability regular humans don't have access to but just being in your own head a lot. Picking up on topics due to context cues also comes with whole human package.

[Clarke]

I'm being sarcastic because I think it's funny how people mistify Ni and turn it into some kind of superpower or think what they can do is more special than it actually is. Like, what you said can just be boiled down to daydreaming, almost excessively so, it's a good sign of Ni, alright, and I'm guilty of it too although mine are usually fantastical in nature, but the point is that it's not some mastermind ability regular humans don't have access to but just being in your own head a lot. Picking up on topics due to context cues also comes with whole human package.

It seems like some people don't have the ability to imagine stuff very well. I've seen apparent ISTJ's on other forums say that they have to lie down in order to get ideas or imagine things. I know a likely LSI who says that he can't imagine faces very well, and I know of a likely SEI who doesn't seem to even understand why people daydream. So to some people, it seems to be somehow a kind of superpower, or some ability or tendency that they don't have.

Mine are also fantastical in nature about 80% of the time. Most of the 20% left is imagining futures that don't even happen in reality. I can kind of extrapolate a future, but it's not dependable. It's actually more of a form of entertainment most of the time.

I've questioned that maybe I'm a SLI or an EII, but then my relationships with other people wouldn't make any sense. I'm also incredibly lazy, and I don't think I like Si-related topics.

[Fake Intellectual]

I'm being sarcastic because I think it's funny how people mistify Ni and turn it into some kind of superpower or think what they can do is more special than it actually is. Like, what you said can just be boiled down to daydreaming, almost excessively so, it's a good sign of Ni, alright, and I'm guilty of it too although mine are usually fantastical in nature, but the point is that it's not some mastermind ability regular humans don't have access to but just being in your own head a lot. Picking up on topics due to context cues also comes with whole human package.

Ni isn't that special, I can just use it to predict outcomes (and I'm not even always right). It's not mystical at all.

[Metamorph]

Is Si-creative violent by nature?

[Metamorph]

I'm being sarcastic because I think it's funny how people mistify Ni and turn it into some kind of superpower or think what they can do is more special than it actually is. Like, what you said can just be boiled down to daydreaming, almost excessively so, it's a good sign of Ni, alright, and I'm guilty of it too although mine are usually fantastical in nature, but the point is that it's not some mastermind ability regular humans don't have access to but just being in your own head a lot. Picking up on topics due to context cues also comes with whole human package.

Ni in Jung's Psychological Types was literally ESP.

[godslave]

Ni in Jung's Psychological Types was literally ESP.

There are some implications from that statement which go beyond the realm of socionics. For one it implies that there is a world beyond our material world and that alone belongs to the domain of faith. The perception of ghosts and paranormal stuff implies that the person who is experiencing that perception is either a superhuman (if we believe it to be true), a prophet /messenger/chosen one, and/or a schizophrenic person (ESP and schizophrenia not necessarily being mutually exclusive if ESP actually exist ). We can choose to believe for whatever reasons that there is a world beyond this world and if we do so, then we are also willing to believe that there are some superhumans who are able to perceive it while most people don't. In the scriptures of some religions namely the Abrahamic ones Angels and Demons do exist, to deny their existence is to deny the existence of God and thus deny faith itself. However, ghosts are excluded from the realm of ESP in Abrahamic religions (some creatures like golems and such exist nonetheless in the esoteric teaching of the kabbalah). One can also argue that the ESP phenomena mostly comes from paganism and the archaic cult of the ancestors (the dead).

A thought , our mind is a gap filler. It's true for our perception of reality, we kinda reconstruct with imagination most of our peripheral environment when we focus on our central vision (weird but true !). It's also true for our memories, the more we remember events and images the more they are alternated or modified. It's kinda scary to think that the events we remember can be so modified by our own perception that they don't really align with the reality of those events anymore (false memories), our brain unconsciously fills the memory gaps with its own imagination, any good investigator knows that, hence the importance of the time factor in witness testimony management. Those replacement are like our dreams, out of our conscious control. So I ask myself : isn't that unconscious process an IE in itself ? There must be a reason why the expression "daydreaming" is associated with Ni, a disconnection from reality of the senses, an immersion in the realm of imagination out of real time perception (opposite to Se which is awake while Ni is at sleep so to speak), a trance. Filling in gaps, why ? Some say it's because our brain is rational and wants things to make sense. Ahahah, isn't that a biased statement at least in the light of socionics ?! Anyways, I want to believe !

[The Reality Denialist]

AFAIK, it is good at pointing out likely vagueness in the horizon. You either pick the good parts or not.

[Clarke]

Is Si-creative violent by nature?

That sounds like it would be something related to Se. If anything, Si seems like it would want peace.

Maybe having Si creative makes you show Se in an odd way. Maybe they're being violent as a demonstration. Or because of some kind of insecurity.

[Metamorph]

That sounds like it would be something related to Se. If anything, Si seems like it would want peace.

Maybe having Si creative makes you show Se in an odd way. Maybe they're being violent as a demonstration. Or because of some kind of insecurity.

Si-creative has Se-demo, which I assume would be the violent part like the Ne-demo of Ni-creatives would be the manipulative part.