Fe is for fake

[mu4]

Largely why I can't be Fe ego. Cause I can't pretend to be anything I'm not. I can't pretend to be happy if I'm not, at least longterm. I can't pretend my feelings. Well, I can, but with limited endurance. It wears me out and I lose myself and I get nothing back in these situations typically. I do it for the sake of others, which is fine...but sometimes it gets to the point where it's not even appreciated, what I do, and I end up bending over backwards for people who wouldn't do the same for me. If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

How do you want to be appreciated, that probably matters more than anything.

I would say all sincere types don't like to pretend. IXFX types.

I would also say it doesn't matter if ones pretends or don't pretends, emotions are deceiving and often stupid. A lot of life is sucking it up and getting things done, even in paralyzing pain. As a whole everyone is masking something, some vulnerability or weakness, some hidden secret or desire, something they don't want others to know about. And what people show of themselves happens to be their strong side. I had a ethical coworker who had all sort of bugs and mistakes in her work, because she was able to ensure happy customers thru her social skills, yet after she left the job due to the stress of doing something she was unsuited for, it ended up being other individuals to pick up the pieces. She was fake too, just in a different way, but ultimately she brought something of value to the problems she dealt with, although it did not make her satisfied.

[Gilly]

hkkmr you might want to clarify your use of the word "sincere."

[Park]

If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

If you really care about a person you will pretend and fake your feelings to no end? :\

Please tell me this is wrong, or I'll go shoot myself.

[Park]

Right on. You decided your type!

It's already been decided, thank you very much.

[Gilly]

To those who see Fe as fake, i think it's because Fe will smile and be cordial to you. Regardless if they like you or not.

"She smiles in your face, but behind your back she talks shit about you all the time."

And Fi equivalent would just talk shit all the time, but wouldnt appear to be on good terms with you. Thus, Fe = Fake. Whereas Fi can come across as bitchy for the inverse reason.

I know plenty of Fi valuers who will act differently than they feel in front of others. My SEE best friend is one of them. What a ridiculous proposition.

[Red Villain]

If you really care about a person you will pretend and fake your feelings to no end? :\

Please tell me this is wrong, or I'll go shoot myself.

You're trying too hard, bro.

[Park]

Does Gilly seem like the type of person who will smile in your face and talk shit behind your back? Certainly not. Fe valuers have ethical principles, too, and not all of them are hypocrite assholes. Trying to make this kind of black and white behavioral associations with IEs is propably not a good idea, even though I agree with the general sentiment pookie was trying to convey here.

[edit:] Actually, I think autocratic types are less prone to (situational) fakery than democratic types, in general. Betas can be image oriented and manipulative, but much less prone to faking their short-term emotions, which is where SFs (and their NT duals) come in.

[somavision]

I know plenty of Fi valuers who will act differently than they feel in front of others. My SEE best friend is one of them. What a ridiculous proposition.

I too spend a great deal of time acting diplomatically with people or friendly even. before blowing off steam about them when they're not there. And there are many reasons, I might like someone but find that they have an annoying characteristic, I could tell it to their faces or I could just leave it, chances are if it's someone I'm friends with I'll tell tham what I'm really thinking, but if it's some casual aquentence or a friend of a friend, why cause a potential drama or do anything to insult them. Or the same thing but I might think the persons a dick, but they're either important now by being connected to me in some way or may become important to me later, there's no point for me just acting like a cunt. However I do tend to be straightforward with friends as diplomatically as possible and won't be dishonest with someone when asked.

Basically the idea of any IM being fake is ridiculous, peoplehave multifaceted relationships with others, which a not rigidly fixed but contextual. As long as the individual feels that they are acting authentically and true to themselves at that time I don't think it really matters.

[Gilly]

When I think of Fe as fake, I don't mean the kinda smile at you and talk shit behind your back fake – nope, when a Fe ego is upset, you will very likely notice it. I'm talking of a deeper fake... How Fe egos approach emotions through the way they express them outside, instead of brewing them within. In theater, I think there's a special technique based on that, it had a name and all but I can't remember it. But idk, some Fe egos might disagree if I say I rarely have emotions within unless I create them. And even if I do, they're very simple, somewhat physical and I'm still in a strong control of how I express them outward.

This is true of me as well, but only to a certain extent...I kind of think of myself as a kayaker in the stormy sea of my own emotions. I can maneuver very deftly where I want to be, choose which waves I ride and which I fight, etc, but ultimately I am a kind of helpless victim to my own inner states. Another metaphor would be like I am a race car driver who is really skilled at making sharp turns and fast maneuvers, but I can't take my foot off the throttle.

[Pookie]

The exception does not disprove the rule.

[Gilly]

The exception does not disprove the rule.

Who made the rule?

[Pookie]

Who made the rule?

It's a metaphor.

Just because you have personal experience where an Fi fit into the "fake" arch-type better than the "bitchy" arch-type it doesnt mean the original point isn't valid. Shit, Fe is still a function that E*FPs use and show to other people. Just like Fi would be for I*FPs. Maybe it would be more accurate to say I*FJs come across as bitchy and E*FJs as fake, since the Fe and Fi respectively in both types is in the ignoring function and that energy gets transmuted into the base.

But yeah, sure. I've known E*FPs that were very "fake" and I*FPs that were very bitchy, But the original question was why Fe itself can get labeled as Fake. And it does often, for those reasons listed.

[silke]

If Fi/Te wasn't capable of devising emotions, playing "roles", or creating personas, there would never be any famous actors, authors, movie directors, script writers, or political figures for that matter, from Gamma and Delta quadra. Clearly that is not the case

Was the you directed at me? Just for the record, I list myself af Fe-creative, so don't worry. I'm just very, very interested in viewpoints on the subject. And I WILL CONTRIBUTE LATER... Ti egos ahoyy, I need your logic to build understandable maps.

Labster had a good Ti description of IEs here - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post808925 It's condensed but at least it's a step forward from describing IEs as "bitchy" and "fake", although the later descriptions have more of a ring to them Fe may appear to be fake and shallow because Fe is tracking epistemics external to oneself since it is a Je function. Te is also a Je function, so if Fe is labeled as "fake" to be fair you'll need to dub Te as "fake, shallow thinking" because in its essence it does something not much different from Fe.

the whole "Fe = fake" stigma is the result of Fi types trying to find a Fi sentiment behind words and actions where there simply isn't one in Ti/Fe types. so when a Fe type communicates something resembling sentiment A, but it's not consistent enough to be real, a Fi type will infer the person really "felt" sentiment opposite-of-A instead, when in reality they just felt nothing. a Fe type communicates emotive content without the need for such a core sentiment. the "emotion" is driven by a pragmatic motive only.

It's not that they felt nothing. They did feel, but it's feeling that developed in response to people or some circumstances external to oneself, rather than being intrinsically derived by the individual solely on his or her own basis, while Fi will attempt to attribute that sentiment to its origin point.

Fe is a dynamic element after all - it exists in the making. That's why Fe valuers sometimes speak of something like "Fe atmosphere" because it's almost like an ambient medium that envelops you, and this medium can be created or extinguished by words or action.

Largely why I can't be Fe ego. Cause I can't pretend to be anything I'm not. I can't pretend to be happy if I'm not, at least longterm. I can't pretend my feelings. Well, I can, but with limited endurance. It wears me out and I lose myself and I get nothing back in these situations typically. I do it for the sake of others, which is fine...but sometimes it gets to the point where it's not even appreciated, what I do, and I end up bending over backwards for people who wouldn't do the same for me. If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

I took an acting class once and didn't like it for this very same reason - it was too draining to pretend to be someone else. Acting ability doesn't seem to be related to which elements one values.

[redbaron]

When I think of Fe as fake, I don't mean the kinda smile at you and talk shit behind your back fake – nope, when a Fe ego is upset, you will very likely notice it. I'm talking of a deeper fake... How Fe egos approach emotions through the way they express them outside, instead of brewing them within. In theater, I think there's a special technique based on that, it had a name and all but I can't remember it. But idk, some Fe egos might disagree if I say I rarely have emotions within unless I create them. And even if I do, they're very simple, somewhat physical and I'm still in a strong control of how I express them outward.

I don't know. I feel like my emotions are pretty complex. I mean, I can feel LOTS of things at once. Happiness, frustration, sadness and wistfulness, joy... all at once. So... I'm not really sure what I'm looking like on the outside when I'm feeling these sorts of things. Probably just contemplative or something. But then if I suddenly see a friend of mine, I can put that stuff aside and be happy to see my friend. It's still genuine happiness to see them, yet that's not ALL I'm feeling. But for their sake, and for the sake of the friendship at that moment, I'm not going to dump all my other stuff on them. Even if they're my BEST friend, there's a time and place for dumping one's moods all over the place. So yes I agree with the part about having control of how you express them. I do too.

[Gilly]

It's a metaphor.

Just because you have personal experience where an Fi fit into the "fake" arch-type better than the "bitchy" arch-type it doesnt mean the original point isn't valid. Shit, Fe is still a function that E*FPs use and show to other people. Just like Fi would be for I*FPs. Maybe it would be more accurate to say I*FJs come across as bitchy and E*FJs as fake, since the Fe and Fi respectively in both types is in the ignoring function and that energy gets transmuted into the base.

But yeah, sure. I've known E*FPs that were very "fake" and I*FPs that were very bitchy, But the original question was why Fe itself can get labeled as Fake. And it does often, for those reasons listed.

I really don't see how Fe is more intrinsically "fake" than any other function, and personally I often see Fi creatives and Te dominants as "fake" when I deal with them in real life, certainly moreso than Fe egos.

[Radio]

I know plenty of Fi valuers who will act differently than they feel in front of others. My SEE best friend is one of them. What a ridiculous proposition.

my impression is that Fi valuers tend to be more openly partial towards people they like, for instance, if they like someone they are likely mostly going to be nice to them even when they're not in the mood (being pushed over the edge notwithstanding). that can be seen as "fake". or easily very cold to people they don't like, or are indifferent towards. or otherwise try to lay groundwork by being really nice and courteous, so it's obvious that they are trying to create a "bond". that can be seen as "fake". a lot of the times i've lied about liking something when in reality i hated it, because i thought the other person wouldn't receive it well - that can be seen as "fake". i know an ENFp who does this, as well as an ESTj.

otoh my impression is that Fe valuers tend towards maintaining balance in conversation, sort of bridging the gaps and building something on top of it. the only time it seems "fake" to me is when it almost feels like they're afraid to break out of character as keeping in character is mutually beneficial. if someone gave me the opportunity to be personable i would see that as more beneficial and take that, instead it seems like Fe valuers seek specific contexts where they can allow themselves to be personable and if lying or acting in the spirit of the moment (i.e. in a party or somethnng) is beneficial for the occasion, they'd prefer that over bringing the mood of the room down.

anyway, yeah.

[Gilly]

my impression is that Fi valuers tend to be more openly partial towards people they like, for instance, if they like someone they are likely mostly going to be nice to them even when they're not in the mood (being pushed over the edge notwithstanding). that can be seen as "fake".

Ok I agree with the general sentiment here but I think Fe valuers are just as likely to show "favoritism," which I think your initial statement could easily be mistaken for.

or easily very cold to people they don't like, or are indifferent towards.

Ehhh...this can be true of Fe valuers as well, Betas especially can be brutal about this.

or otherwise try to lay groundwork by being really nice and courteous, so it's obvious that they are trying to create a "bond". that can be seen as "fake".

I think there is a certain manner of doing this that is characteristic of Fi/Te types, but the phenomenon itself is not exclusive to any function.

a lot of the times i've lied about liking something when in reality i hated it, because i thought the other person wouldn't receive it well - that can be seen as "fake". i know an ENFp who does this, as well as an ESTj.

Umm, I think most people will do this.

otoh my impression is that Fe valuers tend towards maintaining balance in conversation, sort of bridging the gaps and building something on top of it.

Yes, this is good IMO

the only time it seems "fake" to me is when it almost feels like they're afraid to break out of character as keeping in character is mutually beneficial.

Yeah that's understandable.

if someone gave me the opportunity to be personable i would see that as more beneficial and take that, instead it seems like Fe valuers seek specific contexts where they can allow themselves to be personable

Mmmm...not sure this is as much related to Fe/Fi, but I'm also not sure that I'm totally clear on what you're getting at with it.

and if lying or acting in the spirit of the moment (i.e. in a party or somethnng) is beneficial for the occasion, they'd prefer that over bringing the mood of the room down.

Whoa, definitely not true of me. I'd rather bring the whole room down with me than put on a mask if I am in a shitty mood.

My moods are like currents, they ebb and flow into each other, and very noticeably to me and the people I am around, even if I am not expressing them openly or extravagantly. This leads into my favorite differentiation technique between Fe and Fi: dynamic vs. static. I think Fe people's moods and inner states tend to be very open and much more malleable, more reactive and adjusting, not just to other people specifically, but to energies between people and in settings. Now this isn't really so much just adjusting to the mood of the party, so to speak, as it is the actual interaction between energy received from outside and the dynamics of what is happening internally. And reactions are totally situational; sometimes if I'm in a shitty mood, I just need to get in a party or be around people, and it all turns to vapor. But sometimes it's the opposite; if I'm experiencing something really deep or personal, encountering an alternate mood is repulsive, because I am trying to stick with or work through that state.

I think the emotions of Fi/Te types tend to be much more discrete than this. In a sense they are more bouyant, less volatile, and not as prone to but I think they are also more prone to having emotional "triggers" and being very much victims to them. For example an Fi valuer who has been raped is, IMO, much more likely to react negatively when they are in a crowd and somebody makes a rape joke, which is a negative emotional anchor, whereas Fe valuers are more apt to take it in stride or just tell themselves "it's not about me/I don't have to take this personally" etc.

The way the emotions change is a big thing. I think an Fe person's emotions change much more rapidly when they meld with the energy of another person or a situation, and there is a conflict between those two energies, like they have a kind of bubble of resonant emotional-state static around them, and the momentary frequency of that energy either compliments or meshes with another energy, or is simply repulsed by it. Fe-ego people are adept, IME, at sensing the kinds of potential emotional energies that people are capable of, easily discerning frequencies that another's energy might encompass in a different situation or in response to another kind of energy.

Whereas Fi valuers are a bit more like walking puzzle pieces with individually unique shapes and edges, and sometimes you can be around them and be totally abrasive and it's really not a big deal unless you bump into one of their personal edges. And it's really cool and awesome for them when you have an emotional piece that fits with one of their emotional pieces. You can hit an Fe/Ti person's triggers, and they might spike at you or react or get pissed, but you don't get written off, whereas with an Fi/Te type, they might not actually say or do anything about it, but it's a tally on the board.

Fe/Ti people have a similar thing as these edges and shapes, but I think it's of a much more functional nature, and related to Ti. Fe/Ti people who have focused interests often attract each other because they have this same "puzzle piece shape" phenomenon, but it is much more related to the things they do or are capable of. People see each other as functional puzzles pieces: what can we accomplish together? Would we work well together? Can we be a part of the same puzzle? Etc. Jack Nicholson had a great quote from The Departed:

"The point with John Lennon is a man can look at anything and make something out of it. For instance, I look at you and I think what can I use you for?"

This is a mob boss meeting someone, and having his interest piqued, and thinking, "How could this guy, who seems competent, fit into my puzzle?" I think the interplay in the beginning part of the movie between Nicholson and DiCaprio is a great example of Fe/Ti "scouting" of people: Nicholson sees DiCaprio, feels him out in the scene where DiCaprio smashes the bottle over the guys head etc, seeing what he is "capable of," how he acts in crucial circumstances (of course this is a ploy by DiCaprio but the principle applies, DiCaprio's character is just coaxing the arms of a machine that does its job naturally), and approaches him: "What can I use you for?"

I think Te/Fi people do this too; obviously everybody networks, but sensing it in that specific subjective manner is more exclusive to Ti/Fe types IMO. I think Te/Fi people base their decisions about people less on resonance and more on comfort; in the same way Ti people think "What can I use you for/how would you work in my work puzzle," Fi people think, rather than "How are you in x situation/what kind of energy do you have;" instead, "How do you compliment me/how would you fit into my personal puzzle?" I'm not as clear on the Te part, but I think it's a lot to do with seeing how people work and how it helps them fit into a more idyllic scenario of sorts.

Running out of steam here, but I think the ideas are solid...would love to see someone pick this up and refine it.

[Park]

Whoa, definitely not true of me. I'd rather bring the whole room down with me than put on a mask if I am in a shitty mood.

My moods are like currents, they ebb and flow into each other, and very noticeably to me and the people I am around, even if I am not expressing them openly or extravagantly.

Runs away from Gilly...

[Radio]

i cant quote your post on my phone @Gilly but i was building on your previous post i.e. being contrarian to the idea that Fe = fake. i didnt mean to imply any of those behaviors were exclusive to certain functions or type*, just that their existence disproves that Fi can't be just as fake + the probable motives behind what is commonly being seen as fake from Fe types ITT.

edit: *though i can see how my post could be understood that way. awkward phrasing on my part. sorry about that.

brilliant post otherwise, i agree with most of it.

[Gilly]

Ah gotcha. Well to be honest I thought there were still a few discrepancies, but I am glad to know you are interested in pursuing discussion without bias

[Leader]

Can we please stop calling each other "fake"?

No one is fake, no type is fake. "our side" is familiar and comfortable, and their side is strange, but not fake, not any more fake than our own.

This....

To a certain extent.

[Gilly]

Runs away from Gilly...

lol yeah dude, I get the feeling our early interactions would be consistent with a now-impossible blind real-life interaction. But I mean hey, we know each other through this medium, and we actually seem to communicate pretty well when we are both being fair-minded and open, so...

FUCK IT

park will you marry me?

[Leader]

Largely why I can't be Fe ego. Cause I can't pretend to be anything I'm not. I can't pretend to be happy if I'm not, at least longterm. I can't pretend my feelings. Well, I can, but with limited endurance. It wears me out and I lose myself and I get nothing back in these situations typically. I do it for the sake of others, which is fine...but sometimes it gets to the point where it's not even appreciated, what I do, and I end up bending over backwards for people who wouldn't do the same for me. If I really care about a person, I will do this...almost to no end, but...it really isn't constructive for me to do so longterm.

Rubbish.

[fen]

Rubbish.

If you have any useful information to offer on the subject, very well.
Otherwise, what you say means litte. It's hard to care about your opinion when you don't even back it up.

[Leader]

If you have any useful information to offer on the subject, very well.
Otherwise, what you say means litte. It's hard to care about your opinion when you don't even back it up.

Litte? Don't know what the fuck that is. But my comment about your post is very useful.

What you're implicating has nothing to do with what Fe egos are like. Stop making assumptions. Everyone is like that, we all pretend to be something were not to a degree, whether we want to admit it or not...which means....guess what....you're fake just like the rest of us. Might not be Fe ego, but you're still fake.

[Radio]

Okay, now I can quote.

my impression is that Fi valuers tend to be more openly partial towards people they like, for instance, if they like someone they are likely mostly going to be nice to them even when they're not in the mood (being pushed over the edge notwithstanding). that can be seen as "fake".

Ok I agree with the general sentiment here but I think Fe valuers are just as likely to show "favoritism," which I think your initial statement could easily be mistaken for.

Yeah, favoritism is fairly universal I think, but I dunno, it's different in how it manifests in Fi/Te and in Fe/Ti types, like the perspectives are out of sync and there are different standards for what's okay and what's not okay. And sometimes it might appear like bias to Fe/Ti types, although I know that bias exists in Fe/Ti types as well. I'm not sure how exactly but your puzzle piece analogy makes sense in this case, like there are separate divisions for how different the attitude and favourism will be towards groups of people but they're categorized in distinctly different ways. For Fe/Ti types the categorization is more functional, i.e. the similar/same behavior towards everyone in the same circle, but if someone grows outside of that circle or has been outside to begin with, the behavior might be different. The "nature" of the relationship is different and so is the accompanying "bias".

I don't know if I'd say for Fe/Ti types the relationship is more based on resonance because I understood that of Fi/Te from my perspective so maybe it's not specific enough word to describe either. But I get from Fi/Te types that it's much more of a personal conquest, whether someone clicks or not is very much based on each of their personal vibes and the walking puzzle piece makes perfect sense. There's also another thing that sticks out to me, that is, that there is a much more distinctive scale for every person for Fi/Te valuers, like every person is placed somewhere along a line (if that's too 1D, imagine a 3D scale but I'm not sure what I'd put on the axes) and the behavior towards those people is biased as such. It's not necessarily explicit or conscious, but it feels like it's there. Even with two people with the same "function" within the same circle, if there's one person they feel complementary towards, they're going to behave differently towards them. I'm not sure if I'm communicating this right, so let me give an example. My INFp friend gets easily flustered when the ENTj in his "circle" is partial towards certain people more than others, like he's more enthusiastic when meeting me or an ENTp or more likely to confide secrets to an ISFj friend (a fact he doesn't hide at all), and he's more likely going to listen to everyone than the INFp friend (although he probably doesn't realize this himself). This seems to annoy said INFp friend incredibly. That's the kind of bias I was referring to initially.

or otherwise try to lay groundwork by being really nice and courteous, so it's obvious that they are trying to create a "bond". that can be seen as "fake".

I think there is a certain manner of doing this that is characteristic of Fi/Te types, but the phenomenon itself is not exclusive to any function.

Mmm yes. Let me elaborate.

There was this person on the Indian version of Big Brother (called Big Boss) who I thought at that time was an Fi-ENFp (although any Fi ego could work). Throughout the season a lot of people in the house despised her and thought she was a snake etc, even though she appeared to be really pleasant and nice most of the time. I couldn't understand where this was coming from and even now I can only guess what they felt, but for instance, whenever she had a disagreement with someone, she would scrunch her eyebrows and use the "concerned" tone of voice to indicate that she's really trying to understand where the other person was coming from, except maybe it appeared to them like she was trying too hard to make it happen. That she didn't really feel anything and was trying to get along with people so she would win the competition.

Her biggest adversary in the house was an unproblematic Fe-ENFj who tried her best to rip this woman apart and let her know how much she hated her, but despite these attempts, she would come back and apologize and try to make amends, etc. It's really difficult to articulate what exactly I'm referring to, but it's like the niceness isn't spontaneous and doesn't really emerge within the moment, but is predetermined for a purpose, if that makes sense. And that might come off as disingenuous to some people, Fe/Ti types in this case, as it has happened with me several times.

Like my efforts at building rapport with this ISTj fell completely flat the first few times, and even though I tried to understand why, I couldn't. Everything I did seemed to get on his nerves, the fact that I would remember things about him or that I tried to be visibly "nice" or that I added a friend of his on facebook (because we spoke and I thought he was fun), etc. I still don't entirely understand what I was doing wrong, because this strategy had worked for me thus far. Earlier in this thread (or was it another thread?) lemontrees mentioned something about feeling coerced into a relationship with Fi-creatives and that sounds like it might be it, the way Fi-egos build rapport is maybe too discrete and traceable for Fe/Ti types at times.

Another time, this guy (Ni-INFp) very nicely told me he wasn't interested in a relationship, and I responded with "thank you for the answer anyway" and he said, "oh you don't like honesty? okay I'll play". I didn't understand what I said that would appear dishonest, because in my mind I was merely being nice about it. [I swear this isn't a random diversion and it ties into a cohesive point at the end, lol.]

I see Fe-base types doing something similar but it's a lot more subtle and there aren't any visible anchors, so to say, that indicate where a transition occurs or if it occurs at all. It's, like you said, a lot more malleable and dynamic. With Fi types, I get the sense that they're constantly going, "Is this nice enough? Are we okay now? Have I finally made amends? Am I giving the right cues?" but there weren't necessarily any amends to be made in the first place and it's very likely that the Fe/Ti person just doesn't think you're any use to him/her.

I'm not exactly sure I'm describing it right, not sure if I'm choosing the right words, so if you disagree with something, let me know. But it's obvious when it plays out in front of you. I'm fairly certain this woman is another Fi-ENFp and she does the exact same thing I'm referring to:



The way she talks, the kind of expressions she makes, has the same deliberate "CONNECT WITH MEEEE" quality. It's even more obvious when she's doing interviews. That's what I meant could come off as "fake" but maybe it falls under "trying too hard".

if someone gave me the opportunity to be personable i would see that as more beneficial and take that, instead it seems like Fe valuers seek specific contexts where they can allow themselves to be personable

Mmmm...not sure this is as much related to Fe/Fi, but I'm also not sure that I'm totally clear on what you're getting at with it.

This is... much more subjective, more of a vibe really. Like if I'm in the shoutbox and in the middle of a chat, I suddenly ask someone in particular, "hey, what do YOU think?" (example shamelessly stolen from labocat), that kind of putting people in the spotlight is more Fi/Te than Fe/Ti, I think. It's what I mentioned in @Galen's thread as well, like his posts have an ironic distance but it very quickly dissipates if/when I or anyone else directs a question at him. It kind of surprised me this once when Aleksei called him "Gaylen" and he responded very earnestly with "I've asked you not to call me that." i.e. very easily broke out of character.

That kind of thing.
(Apologies for talking about people in third-person, just what's most convenient to me atm.)

Whoa, definitely not true of me. I'd rather bring the whole room down with me than put on a mask if I am in a shitty mood.

Ah, then maybe it's more true of introverted merry types (IXFps > IXTjs), since I know a lot more IXFps and IXTjs closely, than I do EXFjs or EXTps. Although:

My moods are like currents, they ebb and flow into each other, and very noticeably to me and the people I am around, even if I am not expressing them openly or extravagantly. This leads into my favorite differentiation technique between Fe and Fi: dynamic vs. static. I think Fe people's moods and inner states tend to be very open and much more malleable, more reactive and adjusting, not just to other people specifically, but to energies between people and in settings. Now this isn't really so much just adjusting to the mood of the party, so to speak, as it is the actual interaction between energy received from outside and the dynamics of what is happening internally. And reactions are totally situational; sometimes if I'm in a shitty mood, I just need to get in a party or be around people, and it all turns to vapor. But sometimes it's the opposite; if I'm experiencing something really deep or personal, encountering an alternate mood is repulsive, because I am trying to stick with or work through that state.

I think the emotions of Fi/Te types tend to be much more discrete than this. In a sense they are more bouyant, less volatile, and not as prone to but I think they are also more prone to having emotional "triggers" and being very much victims to them. For example an Fi valuer who has been raped is, IMO, much more likely to react negatively when they are in a crowd and somebody makes a rape joke, which is a negative emotional anchor, whereas Fe valuers are more apt to take it in stride or just tell themselves "it's not about me/I don't have to take this personally" etc.

The way the emotions change is a big thing. I think an Fe person's emotions change much more rapidly when they meld with the energy of another person or a situation, and there is a conflict between those two energies, like they have a kind of bubble of resonant emotional-state static around them, and the momentary frequency of that energy either compliments or meshes with another energy, or is simply repulsed by it. Fe-ego people are adept, IME, at sensing the kinds of potential emotional energies that people are capable of, easily discerning frequencies that another's energy might encompass in a different situation or in response to another kind of energy.

...this is a much better description of Fe than mine was.

Whereas Fi valuers are a bit more like walking puzzle pieces with individually unique shapes and edges, and sometimes you can be around them and be totally abrasive and it's really not a big deal unless you bump into one of their personal edges. And it's really cool and awesome for them when you have an emotional piece that fits with one of their emotional pieces. You can hit an Fe/Ti person's triggers, and they might spike at you or react or get pissed, but you don't get written off, whereas with an Fi/Te type, they might not actually say or do anything about it, but it's a tally on the board.

Fe/Ti people have a similar thing as these edges and shapes, but I think it's of a much more functional nature, and related to Ti. Fe/Ti people who have focused interests often attract each other because they have this same "puzzle piece shape" phenomenon, but it is much more related to the things they do or are capable of. People see each other as functional puzzles pieces: what can we accomplish together? Would we work well together? Can we be a part of the same puzzle? Etc. Jack Nicholson had a great quote from The Departed:

"The point with John Lennon is a man can look at anything and make something out of it. For instance, I look at you and I think what can I use you for?"

This is a mob boss meeting someone, and having his interest piqued, and thinking, "How could this guy, who seems competent, fit into my puzzle?" I think the interplay in the beginning part of the movie between Nicholson and DiCaprio is a great example of Fe/Ti "scouting" of people: Nicholson sees DiCaprio, feels him out in the scene where DiCaprio smashes the bottle over the guys head etc, seeing what he is "capable of," how he acts in crucial circumstances (of course this is a ploy by DiCaprio but the principle applies, DiCaprio's character is just coaxing the arms of a machine that does its job naturally), and approaches him: "What can I use you for?"

I think Te/Fi people do this too; obviously everybody networks, but sensing it in that specific subjective manner is more exclusive to Ti/Fe types IMO. I think Te/Fi people base their decisions about people less on resonance and more on comfort; in the same way Ti people think "What can I use you for/how would you work in my work puzzle," Fi people think, rather than "How are you in x situation/what kind of energy do you have;" instead, "How do you compliment me/how would you fit into my personal puzzle?" I'm not as clear on the Te part, but I think it's a lot to do with seeing how people work and how it helps them fit into a more idyllic scenario of sorts.

[Galen]

I don't know if I'd say for Fe/Ti types the relationship is more based on resonance because I understood that of Fi/Te from my perspective so maybe it's not specific enough word to describe either. But I get from Fi/Te types that it's much more of a personal conquest, whether someone clicks or not is very much based on each of their personal vibes and the walking puzzle piece makes perfect sense. There's also another thing that sticks out to me, that is, that there is a much more distinctive scale for every person for Fi/Te valuers, like every person is placed somewhere along a line (if that's too 1D, imagine a 3D scale but I'm not sure what I'd put on the axes) and the behavior towards those people is biased as such. It's not necessarily explicit or conscious, but it feels like it's there. Even with two people with the same "function" within the same circle, if there's one person they feel complementary towards, they're going to behave differently towards them. I'm not sure if I'm communicating this right, so let me give an example. My INFp friend gets easily flustered when the ENTj in his "circle" is partial towards certain people more than others, like he's more enthusiastic when meeting me or an ENTp or more likely to confide secrets to an ISFj friend (a fact he doesn't hide at all), and he's more likely going to listen to everyone than the INFp friend (although he probably doesn't realize this himself). This seems to annoy said INFp friend incredibly. That's the kind of bias I was referring to initially.

This makes sense for Fi/Te to me.

I see Fi/Te valuers as understanding people as static amalgamations of all their perceived characteristics. It's as if each person has a qualitative framework built up about them, and the more points of data that are put into it, the more intricate and nuanced this web becomes. Some points are seen as much more influential than others, and these perceived important points color the Fi/Te valuer's perspective of the person as a whole. What's interesting about this process, in my view, is that when some new point of data is introduced even long after the Fi person has gotten to know somebody better, if it's seen as important or influential enough it can completely and unexpectedly change his perspective on the person. I've seen this happen a lot in myself, specifically with a Ti-ILE friend I had in Japan. He initially struck me as an impersonal, invasive accounting nerd and nothing else, so my perspective on his character was colored with him as such. One day, though, I discovered that he was a good cook, and for whatever reason my whole outlook on him took an immediate turn for the positive. I barely even realized that the change with in me when it happened, but I became much more personable and open with him after having figured out that one little detail. This sort of allows me to do what @Radio described, place people on an internal continuum of trust/connection/likeability/whatever other dimensions there are.

I imagine for Fe/Ti valuers this works somewhat in reverse, where each discrete personality trait is viewed as its own entity and each individual person is viewed as much more of a container for these intangible properties. This extends far beyond the scope of human interaction, and gets applied to pretty much everything the Fe valuers sees. It's as if they define the things they observe in the world by what specific properties within those things they react to. For example, I went on a camping trip with three ESFjs in the mix, and they explained their reactions to their environment as if they were objectively measurable entities that all people can observe and react to. One of them took a hike by herself one day on a trail I had taken the day before, and upon asking how it was she replied "it was gorgeous, but you already know that." I was a bit flummoxed by this perspective, and internally I reacted with "who are you to tell me how I'm supposed to feel?" I wouldn't say so much that Fe/Ti valuers view the emotions they experience in and of themselves as the objective things that anybody can experience; all people will invariably have different emotional reactions to the same stimulus. Rather, their focus to begin with is on that intangible property, with the personal reactions to those things as secondary, albeit important and influential, aspects to the thing that's ultimately "out there."

(Apologies for talking about people in third-person, just what's most convenient to me atm.)

No worries, any excuse to have my mention count go up is okay by me

[Radio]

my last post is a huge verbal blarghghghgh. ):

[pluie]

IEEs and SEEs especially can be very expressive outwardly and emotionally, but its not the same. To Fe types, there is an underlying current that the Fi-creative/Fe-demonstrative form of outward expression misses. I'm not saying they are (necessarily) being fake, but the internal origin of their expression is noticeably different from what Fe considers "genuine" expression)

And NO, it is not always so simple as Mr. Ssmall makes it out to be. Yes that is a common theme between Fe and Fi valuers but its not really relevant to what I'm talking about.

i think i know what you mean. it's very interesting. when it occurred to me that Fe is very good at being "fake," it also occurred to me that i feel sort of like i have no choice but to express what i am feeling, and a certain amount of sincerity is necessary in order to express an emotion in all its richness... and letting it out the moment the feeling occurs is in my opinion, quite genuine. Fe-expression seems much more momentary, and sensitive to the variability of the emotional atmosphere and the endless motivations sort of rolling around together. i see Fi expressed more like a promise - like the feeling has been sort of decided. it isn't ingenuine so much as purposeful in its choice. i would be more incllined to express my momentary emotions and rely on those than the try to stick to one decided desire or viewpoint on something. i don't feel like i'm explaining what i am thinking very well. [EDIT: by the way, i'm not opposed to saying that the experience i'm thinking of pertains especially to IEIs if not to beta nf's or perhaps to Fe creatives.]

and of course i am right now inevitably defensive, though not very much on purpose, in saying all this. don't want to be considered "fake". (as jung says, the alterior motives of Fe... *sigh*)

EDIT 2: P.S. what's even more fun to think about is how this desire to be "genuine" is from an Fe-point of view because the majority of people value the trait. for example, i want to try to reject my Fe-motives to experience my 'truer' i-don't-give-a-fuck-what-others-want desire.

[Gilly]

I think you've got it dead on :-)

[HERO]

So are these lyrics Fe-creative or Fi-dominant:

" . . . And I'm pretending to care/When I'm not even there/Gone, but I don't know where . . ."