The earth is round

[Enters Laughing]

..The undefended life...

What the Bible says about Abortion

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life.

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life." -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

"And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver." -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

"Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD." -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him." -- Numbers 31:15-17 (Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

"Give them, O LORD: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts." -- Hosea 9:14

"Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb." -- Hosea 9:16

"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." -- Hosea 13:16

God sometimes kills newborn babies to punish their parents.

"Because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die." -- 2 Samuel 12:14

God sometimes causes abortions by cursing unfaithful wives.

"The priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell. And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen. ...
And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people. And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed." -- Numbers 5:21-21, 27-28

God's law sometimes requires the execution (by burning to death) of pregnant women.

"Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt." -- Genesis 38:24

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co.../abortion.html

[Eliza Thomason]

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co.../abortion.html

LOL, How come I am not surprised you are quoting a website that has "skeptics" in it?

[Are you a Snopes fan??].

I can't really delve into the Old testament right now with you. Partly because its Jan.30 and there is one day left to the month and I see I am nowhere near what I wanted to accomplish in January and now I need to get busy working hard on things. And to discuss Old Testament would be especially time consuming for me. In part because you are either ILI Dialectical-Algorithmic, or EII Causal-Determinist (I think its the former for many reasons but including because you tend to be multi-course rather than single course in thinking, as in D-A's "precise style of thinking that branches out and runs along multiple parallel courses" seems like you in your posts) - and either way you are a Process person (and I think you take an ILI Aggressive approach to the Process vs. EII's retiring meek approach to Process - where you are clear that this is the right Process to think a thing through and we should follow this thinking path that you are leading us on) and I am Result. I can follow your method, of course, as we all have to follow different peoples methods especially in higher education, and I have gone along for the ride on your method, as you know, but since its not my preferred, comfortable mosaic approach, and it tires me, a lot. And I have protests about the process while I am in it, so its very hard. So that's one reason why I am tabling Old Testament debate. The other reason is I really live in the New Testament. The Old Testament points to the new and for that it is interesting. Also Old Testament interests me for the question of how did God prepare a through whom He would come to earth? Its interesting. And as I told Jackal, I consult trusted scholarly theologians when I am stuck. Wm Carroll., Father Most, are easy to find, or just Catholic Encyclopedia online will give the opinion of various theologians on a subject. Also I love Psalms and Proverbs of Old Testament. @TheJackal quoted Psalm 1 here, and that's one of the ones I love and have committed to memory. Also he mentioned Proverbs and that is a wonderful place to pick up and read, and yes, I have read them through more than once.

I just have to step back a bit and get things in order and on the right path here at home. Lent is here already before two weeks is up. And so much to do, starting now. I need to get ahead on things before I spend more time reading and thinking and typing.

So I am just saying I am going to take some time before i get back to this, at least I won't be answering back as quick as I have been. When I do type again I will start with your responses to what I said your INTp type. But i just want to address this now:

I feel it is a little unfair to put me on the spot in this way, and induce me to divulge my private life when I have typically been reticent in giving out details and very much a slow-burner in that regard over a decade on this forum.

In no way! I just have to correct this. I deeply respect people's privacy. If anyone so much as gives a hint they want to keep this or that part of their life private, I will take a wide berth around it. I am very interested in personal details people want to share about their lives, but the key part of this is "want to share". If someone doesn't' want to share something with the general public or with me, I don't want to know. If someone tells me something private and personal about another person and I suspect that the person did not want me or people in general knowing that, then I immediately feel a huge burden of guilt. I certainly would not seek to know something someone did not want me to know. I don't want to know anything about a person that that person does not feel inclined to divulge, for any reason. I am really strong on that.

It seems like you are asking me to do what someone like Maritsa does, and made a parade of being a Humanitarian.

No, I am just noticing how completely different you are, and how jarring it woudl be to see Maritsa to debate issues like you do, or for you to make a report of the types of things she woudl report. It woudl just seem so out of character, for both of you.


You evidently do not know enough about me to get a sense of my history, my life situation, and my experiences and thoughts on various matters. I do not tend to make a public record of such things, [/QUOTE] you don't type a lot of that here and I woudl never ask it. There are things I don't type aobut here (in spite of being someone who likes sharing personal stories) and just as I expect people to respect that, I respect their choice of realm of what to share. So, there is a part of you that you want to share here. (And as to fodder for choosing a Socionics type, it should be plenty, what's here. Occasionally, I can type on a first meeting and first conversation with someone IRL).. I do not seek anything beyond that, you can be sure. Its just that what you share is more NT things, and what Martisa shares is more NF things....

But the contrast between you and Maritsa is big at times, like those things we both mentioned, and the points you brought up I do want to discuss. So I will get back to this soon, and will start with your responses on ILI/EII here.

[Enters Laughing]

LOL, How come I am not surprised you are quoting a website that has "skeptics" in it?

[Are you a Snopes fan??].

Most of the source material was from the bible and should speak for itself. It is naturally unlikely that you will find a pro-Christianity website easily compiling such a collection of awful verses on the subject\s we are discussing, and it did not make sense for me to cover the issue in my own terms when it has been comprehensively and succinctly compiled and commented on.

(I do think it is somewhat important when quoting such resources to do so as concisely as seems reasonable without losing clarity, as otherwise those reading (especially those in extreme opposition to the position being represented) are highly liable to gloss over it and\or not take it seriously, for various reasons.)

In regards Snopes, although I value its research, I find it too dry in style, and inclined to negation rather than putting forward "new" perspectives or research that utilises many conclusions and observations in various fields.

you don't type a lot of that here and I woudl never ask it. There are things I don't type aobut here (in spite of being someone who likes sharing personal stories) and just as I expect people to respect that, I respect their choice of realm of what to share. So, there is a part of you that you want to share here. (And as to fodder for choosing a Socionics type, it should be plenty, what's here. Occasionally, I can type on a first meeting and first conversation with someone IRL).. I do not seek anything beyond that, you can be sure. Its just that what you share is more NT things, and what Martisa shares is more NF things....

But the contrast between you and Maritsa is big at times, like those things we both mentioned, and the points you brought up I do want to discuss. So I will get back to this soon, and will start with your responses on ILI/EII here.

I find that I have a widespread in all the various humanities in comparison to most people, including Maritsa, and that subjects that have no "human" element or humanitarian utility bore me fairly quickly: I think this is true to the extent that even in Psychology, if it is too detached from personality traits, I just have no interest in it. I'm not sure what interests Maritsa can have that are "more NF things", other than her interest in proselyting Socionics and to a lesser extent involvement in psychology, and being actively involved in social projects and socialising (which I have always been far less inclined to do, other than amongst a small circle of people I know: I do not count online social projects oddly enough, but perhaps this is a representation of the scale of my introversion in comparison to Maritsa's).