Which type has it best in terms of ITR?

[Kindness]

IEE has it pretty good in my opinion! Curious what it's like for others.

- I'm happy to have the generally considered "difficult" types ILE and SEE as my Comparative and Business bros, i have a soft, soft spot for ones i see out in the wild and as for the ones I've personally met, we tend to get along instantly. (Of course there are a few who don't like me, or there are some bumps in the beginning, but it's livable.) I know a very close IEE-ILE duo who get along great, they're always shooting the shit, although they sometimes talk over each other. I think they may also be DCNH matched.

- I don't particularly like having LSE as Activity and I feel slightly robbed of a nice Activity partner. From afar, I can't stand LSEs' fragile moralizing, their status-consciousness, and their unwillingness to pick apart their own difficult emotions... meanwhile i've seen EII-SLI and ESE-ILE Activity pairs get along aggressively well, past an initial adjustment period. Maybe things would be different if I actually lived with one, it seems difficult for Si-DS to "reap the benefits" of Si ego over long distance. I've heard IEI-LSI Activity is largely talking past each other with a lot of mutual "???????" but that it's good for companionship.

- LII as Supervisor is one of the gentlest Supervisors you could ask for. True any level of disagreement is incredibly frustrating and if you catch feelings it's death by a thousand cuts, but ... what can you do. Catching feelings for Supervisor is never a good idea I feel bad for EII with SEE as their Supervisor. They seem to get very stressed out by the lead Se and EII themself not knowing how to draw boundaries is just a sitting duck while SEE comes barreling towards them.
On the other hand I would predict that ILE is not particularly bothered by Supervisor EII. I mean it's EII, you can safely ignore them LOL. SLI>LIE Supervision seems to go well when there are shared crafts, interests, and emotional intensity. But they have a problem of not listening to each other otherwise, with SLI just kind of ignoring when they don't know how to respond.

- ESI as Supervisee is ok. Not the worst. just learn to think like an S-type a little and you'll be fine, don't take things personal. i've learned to bother them only when something is ACTUALLY important. and don't push them on differences of opinion or viewpoint, which thankfully they aren't aggressive about either.

- Having LIE as Beneficiary is great, being able to "see into" the head of such a productive, high-achieving type is a huge ego boost for me who's constantly insecure about my own impracticality. It's like I have a leg up, yknow?
(Read: I respect LIEs immensely so being in an advantageous role is very nice.)

- ESE as Benefactor is ok. It's fine. Whatever. My mom is ESE. Growing up the Demo Se was horrible and squashed most of the benefits of Si-creative. Unhealthy ESE is a mess to deal with but healthy ones are probably still uncomfortable for IEE. I get the sense that they won't really listen to me. I still feel worse for EII though... Can you imagine having ILI as your Benefactor? It's like impossible to challenge them on anything and you probably just feel intellectually inferior all the time.

- Conflictor LSI... eurgh. Mixed bag. I think it's easy for me to make them suffer without meaning to, meanwhile no other type can make me look and feel like such an idiot. That's just how it is with Conflictors, isn't it? That being said they are not that difficult to "deal with" out of all the 16 types and are generally reasonable, not super volatile or aggressive, etc. And while they may be unpleasant and condescending if they've decided they don't like me, they are not meaningfully threatening or dangerous so I feel like I lucked out. And if they do like me, they're really nice and supportive! I cannot imagine falling in love with and dating one though.

- No opinion on Superego SLE, I hardly know any SLEs or interact with them and as a type I imagine we regard each other with wariness; the one SLE I mentioned has called me "so hard to understand" and "chaotic," which, alright, fine, I get where he's coming from. I am not keen to get much closer to SLE on a personal level anyway. Meanwhile SEE-ILE seem to greatly enjoy each other's company, with a lot of banter and lighthearted joking around.

- No opinion on SEI Semiduality, I don't know other Semidual pairs enough and SEI is a mystery to me overall despite being best friends with one.

- IEI as Contrary isn't terrible. It can be turbulent, I imagine most Contrary relationships are very confusing for both parties and it's just a matter of how often and thoroughly that confusion is discussed. Since we are both NF we pick at it often enough to maintain a close friendship.

- I don't think I get along well with EIE Quasi, lead Fe exhausts me, and I feel pretty envious of EII-IEI Quasi, who are comfortable and talkative in each other's presence, and rarely have problems. Then again they don't understand each other at all when it comes to deep topics. ILE-LIE Quasi also seem to be good support for each other and unaffected by the accidental condescension that E-Quasis bring to the dynamic.

- ILI as Mirage sucks. I don't know how to deal with Fe polr and their low, unvalued Si means they're not helping me monitor the comfort of a conversational situation, unlike SLI. They're intelligent and charming and I'm often fond of them holding them at arms length, any closer and it's unbearable. Why I say it sucks is because they keeeeeeep tempting me to get closer Dx

- There's enough discussion about the different flavors of Duality already. All I have to say in particular is, people feel bad for IEE because we can't immediately see SLI's potential, but I'd argue that happens with all Dual pairs.

- EII as Mirror is extremely funny because (american) (online) society has so many EIIs in it. I feel lucky, because on one hand Mirrors understand and recognize me well enough to be tolerant, but I'm different enough from them to be special and noteworthy. I don't have much opinion other than it makes a good chunk of the population easier to understand.

- Finally, Identical IEE is ... I ran out of steam at the end of this post. They're okay, a little bit annoying and it's easy for us to butt heads because role Se. I don't really understand people who want to date or even be all that close to their Identical and I'm curious which type would even have a situation where they conclude that.



IN SUMMARY: For IEE the ITRs especially the asymmetrical and unpleasant ones seem to be configured for minimal pressure on us, which I appreciate. What about your type? Is there all that much variance between each type's experience of the socion?

[Kindness]

holy d**k that's a long post

Also I haven't taken into account DCNH subtypes (not confident at ID'ing those yet) or inert-contact subtypes... would be really funny if all my examples were actually contaminated by that.

[Toro]

Identical = Fine
Dual = Good
Activator = Good
Mirror = Good for the most part

Kindred = Mixed
Semi-Dual = Good for the most part
Benefactor = OK
Supervisor = Fine I guess

Super-Ego = a bit annoying
Extinguishment = Good (one of my favorite types)
Quasi-Identical = OK but less 'OK' than EIE
Conflictor = Straight up annoying.

Business = Fine but I have had some serious issues with them in the past
Mirage = Good
Beneficiary = Good
Supervisee = I have a soft spot for this type.

[Kindness]

Benefactor = OK
...
Quasi-Identical = OK but less 'OK' than EIE

If I'm readin' this right, your type is SEE?

[Bethanyclaire]

@Kindness coool post. I’m curious what gender you are to add even more context but also happy for that to remain a mystery. I think IEEs have it ok too..my SEE sister is good friends with an IEE and I’m amazed by how much fun they have together, being around them is a lot of fun ha. I’m also super jel of IEE/SEI lol. SEI/IEE semi-duality seems like the ultimate passionate romance to me. I guess IEEs have it good but they are one of the most passionate types so they’re always striving for more in their relationships, so maybe it isn’t always as great for them as it looks. As IEI I think I get on well with IEEs. I value their friendship the most out of all. Sometimes I worry that we stress each other out but they also make life feel romantic and meaningful. (Maybe IEI have it good in this way, we get to have the support and loyalty of one of the most passionate types!). I have two close IEE friends now. (One of each subtype I think). In the past I had two more who I actually had a better natural click with but the friendships ended up dying out. My dad is SLI so I wonder if I inherited some of his SLI-ness which makes me like IEEs lol.

Edit..just for fun. Issues I have with my IEE pals: with my female IEE friend, well I guess I can’t give her too many compliments..or I feel like she wants to get too close and begins to take advantage of me, misbehave or expect too much, it’s a minor issue though for me. The rest is very good. Also sometimes compliments and displays of affection are absolutely essential to a contrary ITR, it’s what makes the friendship so valuable. With my male IEE pal- if I’m feeling tired when we hang out I have to be very careful how I explain my discomfort and worries that I’m going to ruin the evening. It seems I can avoid that prophecy by exaggerating my frustration instead of quietly stating it. It brings out his protector side, rather than him thinking I’m exaggerating, ironically. Also, I give him random hugs which I think mean a lot.

[Toro]

If I'm readin' this right, your type is SEE?

Yeah

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Deltas have it the best and Betas have it the worst probably. It doesn't surprise me that you're so optimistic about this... it's classic IEE. My IEE cousin is happily married to a SLI guy... I make fun of them a lot on here, but I'm probably just jealous of them. My LSE/EII neighbor also had a very good relationship. Most of the Betas I know are single and not even with anybody really... but if they are with somebody it's usually a EIE/LSI couple I've noticed. LoL I want a SLE so badly sometimes but I'm forever alone. It's my own fault, I wish I crushed on better SLEs or something but whatever. I love who I love and I don't want to make any excuses or apologizes. I'm a weird person and I need a tough supernatural vampire monster to handle me- Normies aren't for me okay? I am a male Buffy looking for my Spike or Angel. ;D

It's hard for me to be Wayne Dyer fake in my relationships with others- but I guess if you're Delta, that thing isn't 'fake' to you at all - just spiritually evolved or something. But I just view it fake and stupid.

[DEAD]

What's the point in ITR when you don't get along with anyone? lol.

[Bethanyclaire]

Dual, SLE: guys are hot and fun, have one female SLE friend but we had a lot of issues at first. It's hard to maintain the friendship, however she is abroad so this could be a factor. I think I find it hard to trust SLEs as friends. I've noticed the following dual friendships: LSI/EIE and ILE/SEI.

Super-ego partner, SLI: Have had some good female SLI friends- fun, kind and caring. Have also known some interesting SLI males. The best one felt more like an acitivity partner than an SLI. I've noticed an ESE/LIE friendship at work.

Semi-dual, SEE: Brother and sister are SEE, very fun people. My sister and I have a really good relationship. I did have an SEE friend but the vibe is a bit weird recently. She also lives abroad, I feel a bit used by her at times. Kind person though. I wouldn't mind dating a cute SEE.

LSI/ESE seem to get on well.

Illusionary partner, ILE: Have a young male ILE friend who is fun, kind and supportive. I think we have to take breaks from each other every now and again. I admire ILEs at work but I think we end up feeling uncomfortbale around each other. I've noticed an LSI/LIE friendship at work.

Kindred partner: Can be good friends but only if there is a high level of trust. ILI males are really fun to party with. I've noticed an SEE/SLE friendship at work. I've noticed ILE/IEE friend pairings. Also helps if you have mutual friends/hang out in a group..I don’t know I think maybe ILI/IEI can be a bit co-dependent.

ESE/EIE seem like good friends.

Look-a-like partner: I like SEIs a lot, I'd like to have a close SEI friend. I like talking to SEIs who are friends of friends in group settings. I once had a few dates with an SEI; we went to a Tudor castle which was really fun and we had some quite rich conversations. It's hard to find one like that though. They can be annoying though, (when they go silent). I also don't get how they can be self-pitying one minute and then absolutely fine the next. Their life seems like an easier version of mine lol, but they also don't seem as happy as me in some ways. Most intriguing type to me Think I get on slightly better with SEI males. One I knew, felt like my soul-mate.

IEEs and SEEs get on well..I’ve noticed ESI/LSI besties.

Contrary: I already wrote about them. They're usually my closest friends. We talk about life, support each other and sometimes have fun!

Identical: I've only had one good IEI friend, other than that I don't come across many. If she moves back to the area, then I think we'd be really good friends. Like a cross between SEI/IEE. It's nice having convos with someone who talks like you and who has a nice vibe about them.

Activity: They just seem too clever for me, although I did have a good date with an LSI before where the conversation was quite pleasant. They are responsible people but can out of nowhere do something unfair. Good as work friends.

Conflictor: Good to party with if you end up being brought together somehow. Once I get to know them I usually like them, but I think we tire each other out. Oh, I don't think I get on as well with female LSEs.

Supervision: they keep life interesting lol. ESE are lovely to chat with at work. I also like talking to my sister's ESE friends. I've had issues with a couple in the past. They can be brutally harsh on people, and do/say unforgivable things..and not apologise. Maybe that's only the bad ones, not sure. LIE are also a mixed bag. They can be great to talk to, sometimes at work, sometimes in a social setting. I admire a lot about them but it's annoying when they think their morality is better than mine lol. Some are just really nice and some seem determined to drain the life out of me.

I’ve seen a couple SLI/ESE couples.

Benefit: Don't know many LIIs but I like them. There was one annoying one at work once but we both had secret mental health issues, it's sad we weren't able to open up to each other. ESI- had one good ESI friend in the past. Generally they are nice to talk to at work but they are a little aloof and sometimes they seem too selfish. They usually have something quite interesting to say.

Quasi-identical: If you find a good one, they can be nice friends in a work/education setting. My SEE sis is best friends with an ESE, but I think they feel more like sisters.

Mirror: If you find a good one, can be a good friend to hang out with, perhaps as part of a group or 1:1..outside of work/maybe in work with some. I still think mirrors are in the top 4 romantic pairings based on passion alone; for me the top 4 are dual, look-a-like, mirror, semi-dual, in no particular order.

SEI/ESE couples seem common.

[Kindness]

]
Business = Fine but I have had some serious issues with them in the past

It's funny that you mention this, the one SEE in my life i do sometimes have conflict with likely because the ways we are 'considerate' for other people and expect sensitivity back is at odds. Ti polr clash also isn't fun. If you wish to elaborate, i am curious to hear more about this...

[Lord Pixel]

Identical = Great
Dual = Good
Activator = Great
Mirror = Great

Kindred = Amazing my favorite type
Semi-Dual = Fine
Benefactor = Good
Supervisor = Fine

Super-Ego = Good
Extinguishment = Real Good and Real Bad
Quasi-Identical = Ok
Conflictor = Fine

Business = Ok
Mirage = Good
Beneficiary = Good
Supervisee = Worst

[roger557]

The luckiest is probably LIE, having SEI as conflictor type(a type which often is conflict avoidant) and SLE, the most aggressive type, as beneficiary, which means they will not likely attack you and try their best to please you.

[Armitage]

ESI, dual: Inspiring! I love both going out, as well as chilling with my ESI friends! Most of them are very structured, but unhealthy ones are terribly absent-minded.

SEE, activity partner: Fun, but unreliable. We enjoy our time together, the SEE proposes to meet up soon again, and then rarely does, unless I initiate again. I really like them and they me, I just don't like the fact that they treat me as one of many. One of my SEE friends actually videocalled me last evening. He had said that he would do so, but I hadn't expected that he would actually follow through, also because he said it two weeks ago. Still, the fact that he eventually remembered doing so means that he cares, because most people SEEs would not remember to call back, because they have so many "friends".

ILI, mirror: Some of my best friends are ILIs. We mesh very naturally.

LIE, identical: With healthy LIEs contact is fine. We have similar hobbies and interests. When one is more experienced in or knowledgeable of a topic than the other a mentor-mentee relationship unfolds. With unhealthy identicals a struggle for power occurs, which is definitely no fun.



SLE, beneficiary: The healthy ones are fun to be with! They're more bold and risk taking than I am, so I sometimes have difficulty going along with their ideas, but I love their adventurism and can-do attitude! The unhealthy ones try to steamroll me through intimidation.

LSI, mirrage: Interaction with them is so relaxed, so smooth. Chilling with my LSI friends is really relaxing. They're one of the very few people with which I enjoy just sitting back and doing nothing with. Their one down side is that unhealthy ones prioritize popularity over loyalty.

IEI, supervisee: They're sweet, but ditzy. I generally help them with computer problems.

EIE, look-a-like: Healthy ones are intelligent networkers who can bring groups together to succeed at a task or to have fun together. Unhealthy ones are moody, passive-aggressive drama queens, who believe truth to be subjective instead of objective.



EII, semi-dual: Sweet and dreamy, but fragile. I experience their lack of Se as them being brittle.

IEE, benefactor: Empathic class clowns. I feel how they love the world and everyone in it. Oftentimes they're so busy with trying to get along with everyone and goofing around that their performance is lacking.

LSE, kindred: Reliable, but plain. They love tradition, they love church, they love annual celebrations, but they lack imagination. "Act normally, then you already act weird enough." is a saying in Dutch that I expect to have been coined by a LSE. Whenever I try discussing ideas with them the conversation runs rather short. They express their fondness of someone by resolving practical problems for them. They are handy, competent gardeners, and also surprisingly good cooks!

SLI, supervisor: Formal, but kind-hearted. The SLI friends I have tend to be pessimistic. They have a dry-wit that I can appreciate. When they try to help me they sometimes enforce their overly structured method, and when I try to follow this, it just doesn't work to both our disappointment. Misunderstandings then tend to arise, because the SLI expects this to be "easy", but it's not for me.



LII, extinguishment: Intellectually stimulating in small doses. I always enjoy my discussions with LIIs, but need a recharging period afterwards. Their highly hypothetical thinking I can easily engage in, but afterwards I need to engage in some concrete, physical tasks, in order to regain some energy. Beware of overly polite LIIs who do not express their needs properly, but then double down on you for not taking their needs into account!

ILE, quasi-identical: Their hyperactivity tires me and their ideas are often harebrained. They believe that the presentation of ideas is more important, than their substance. Frequently they befaffle their listeners into going along with their crazy plans, but not me. Oftentimes they try to talk their way out of problems and use loopholes, instead of taking responsibility and doing the hard work. They have a knack for finding discounts, which is good, as it saves money.

ESE, super-ego: They are social butterflies intend on helping others in exchange for attention. They are really charitable and helpful. Sometimes their need of validation gets the better of them. They are some of the best cooks who I ever met! Like EIEs, unhealthy ones can be overemotional and can be as dramatic and passive-aggressive as an EIE who feels wronged.

SEI, conflictor: Peacemakers, I actually cannot recall ever having any conflict with the SEI high school friend I have. By now he has learned that my way of asserting myself does not mean that I'm angry, but just confident of what I say. It took a while for him to feel this, and I learned to phrase myself kinder to him. He can take things personally that are merely factual.

[Toro]

It's funny that you mention this, the one SEE in my life i do sometimes have conflict with likely because the ways we are 'considerate' for other people and expect sensitivity back is at odds. Ti polr clash also isn't fun. If you wish to elaborate, i am curious to hear more about this...

There was an IEE I knew that wasn't very healthy, we really didn't like each other. A lot of clashes at the workplace. That's who I had in mind when I wrote that.

[Kindness]

Identical = Great
Dual = Good
Activator = Great
Mirror = Great

Kindred = Amazing my favorite type
Semi-Dual = Fine
Benefactor = Good
Supervisor = Fine

Super-Ego = Good
Extinguishment = Real Good and Real Bad
Quasi-Identical = Ok
Conflictor = Fine

Business = Ok
Mirage = Good
Beneficiary = Good
Supervisee = Worst

You're EII, right? i think i saw you mention that in another thread but just checking
LMAO at Supervisee if so -- friggin' hate those chaos bastards huh xD

[Lord Pixel]

You're EII, right? i think i saw you mention that in another thread but just checking
LMAO at Supervisee if so -- friggin' hate those chaos bastards huh xD

Yea I'm EII.
Well I don't wanna keep digging at the type, cuz I've done enough of that on here, but I just realize I keep trying to get them to take things serious and of course they are the type that takes life the least serious, which is great, just not around me, cuz you'll say something fucked up and I'll snap lol.

[Kindness]

@Bethany
IRT gender i've "batted for both teams" so to speak It's interesting to hear another IEI's opinion. my IEI friend does really like me now that i think about it. I sometimes have issues communicating with her and actually feel kind of wary around her when we disagree about something intellectually, even though we've both mellowed out a lot (when we lived together, we had a couple serious, screaming fights over differing interpretations of this or that song or societal trend, which is really funny now that i think about it). Our overall priorities and ways of expressing politeness are very different and i've had to learn to respect that. I'll admit it still doesn't come naturally and i continuously need to catch myself.

"Also sometimes compliments and displays of affection are absolutely essential to a contrary ITR, it’s what makes the friendship so valuable." i'll keep this in mind... I think i undervalue how easy it is for me to talk to my IEI friend about emotions and romance. (it's likely subsequent to me undervaluing the importance of those two things in my life in general.) Her genuine interest and curiosity in my romantic exploits and feelings baffles me, so i repeatedly forget to and avoid telling her.

Your commentary about SEIs has really made me think. It's invaluable for me to get information about how other people intake other types, compared to someone of a type reporting their own experience to you which is just laden with their personal biases and blindspots. SEI with deliberate ones, too...
"I also don't get how they can be self-pitying one minute and then absolutely fine the next." From what I understand, SEI's emotional life is both deeply unintrospective and heavily exteriorized. they deal with problems as they come up and this always entails blurting them out to someone or somewhere-- seeking counsel or a shoulder to cry on. then they get back to chipping away patiently at the situation, until it frustrates them unbearably, and they have to vent, then they get back to their practical life, until they get frustrated, ETC. Their lives are easier in that they don't have constant access to a greater depth of neurosis, but they also aren't as happy because they are averse to even wanting to reach that larger emotional & spiritual space... it's my suspicion that they feel anxiety much more painfully.

So, I can see how SEI (psychoanalyst hater) and IEE (psychoanalyst) relationship can sound very romantic LOL. Especially from an outside Victim pov. In my experience this particular facet of the dynamic has been... tiring, for both of us. I have a lot of guilt for pushing my best friend to explore certain topics, often to the point of tears, despite her objections. At the same time I have let her be painfully judgemental and insensitive to me perhaps out of my guilt, when it turns out i could just ask her to not say certain things to me, and she complies kindly. The cyclical, helpless nature of SEI's venting gets under my skin and grates on my ears especially when my natural response -- to interrogate the emotions further for insight -- gets rejected. I don't like providing reassurance over and over, nicely and sweetly too, it makes me feel like my words and sentiments aren't being heard and aren't influential. In the end as we've both matured i've learned to patiently bear out her episodes, say something useful once or twice without having to worry about being gentle, and then leave it alone.
SEI does introspect but you need to give them the space to and they do listen to your commentary, but they very much walk their own path. In a way that's a blessing because it deflects my energy back at myself. I've had issues with getting sucked into the lives of anyone who vocally appreciates my influence and getting giddily addicted to the impact of my advice (SLI and LII come to mind).

That being said we actually explored this topic a week before your reply, after I blurted out that i've had feelings for her for years and just wanted her to reciprocate, even if us getting together in a traditional way was long established as infeasible. In the end she rejected me, but she said some incredibly romantic things in the process. We're back to normal now and i'm just glad i got to discuss it, so some weird stuff like both of us being jealous of each other's exes is no longer in the air.

Anyway, I had always ruled out SEI romantically, but now you've got me thinking her and me may just be not well matched for NTR reasons. I'll keep my eye out for cute and DTF SEI boys...

[Kindness]

IEE, benefactor: ... Oftentimes they're so busy with trying to get along with everyone and goofing around that their performance is lacking.

OUCH...

Armitage, I have to give it to you. You sound so happy, I think LIE wins LOL

[Toro]

Somethings that I find a little unique about my ITR spread is that SEI is too good to be considered "extinguishing".

LSE is too helpful to me in my life and I learn from them more than they do from me in my experience, so "beneficiary" is weird.

[Armitage]

Armitage, I have to give it to you. You sound so happy, I think LIE wins LOL

Hahaha, well, we LIEs do have one big difficulty that compensates for all the advantages in Intertype Relations, though. It is namely extremely hard to be accepted by our dual. ESIs tend to live life with their set circle of friends and if you don't belong yet to this group it's very challenging to get accepted into it by them. My ESI bicycle friend mentioned the other day how he didn't even pay attention to the friends of his friends when they on occassions that they were hanging out as a group. To him they were just acquintances that might as well not exist. The only reason why he and I have been able to become friends is because he moved from Germany to the Netherlands for his psychology study and was therefore actively looking for a new friend circle. Then I offered to help him repair his bike at just the right moment.

In contrast, another ESI I knew never fully accepted me as a friend, despite being at scouting for more than half a decade together, frequently meeting up, and even being invited to his birthday party, all because he had a different primary friend circle, which meant I that in his eyes I was some second-rate friend, even though I always showed up and supported him when his primary friend group left him hanging. In a way ESIs are like ducklings, they imprint on someone, so whoever they first befriend will be their friend forever to the exclusion of anyone else who might actually treat the ESI much better.

[Adam Strange]

Hahaha, well, we LIEs do have one big difficulty that compensates for all the advantages in Intertype Relations, though. It is namely extremely hard to be accepted by our dual. ESIs tend to live life with their set circle of friends and if you don't belong yet to this group it's very challenging to get accepted into it by them. My ESI bicycle friend mentioned the other day how he didn't even pay attention to the friends of his friends when they on occassions that they were hanging out as a group. To him they were just acquintances that might as well not exist. The only reason why he and I have been able to become friends is because he moved from Germany to the Netherlands for his psychology study and was therefore actively looking for a new friend circle. Then I offered to help him repair his bike at just the right moment.

In contrast, another ESI I knew never fully accepted me as a friend, despite being at scouting for more than half a decade together, frequently meeting up, and even being invited to his birthday party, all because he had a different primary friend circle, which meant I that in his eyes I was some second-rate friend, even though I always showed up and supported him when his primary friend group left him hanging. In a way ESIs are like ducklings, they imprint on someone, so whoever they first befriend will be their friend forever to the exclusion of anyone else who might actually treat the ESI much better.

Armitage, this sounds like it could be due to Ne-PoLR. It is hard to get into their circle, but equally hard to get left out.

I’ve known some ESIs, both male and female, for many years and I’m allowed in just so far and no further.

Contrast that with ILEs.

[Armitage]

Yup @Adam Strange, he has quite obvious Ne-POLR, as he also has trouble picking hobbies for himself to do. He has quite some free time as a bachelor student, but doesn't know what to do. I asked him what his goals are, to which he replied that he wants to learn a new skill and meet people. I recommended him to do the Dutch language course that our university offers, so he can socialize better with the people here. He thought it a good idea, but still procrastinates on it, because he isn't sure if it is the best idea. I found that an odd way of thinking, because he doesn't have any alternatives in mind and now just wastes his time. He admitted, though, that he frequently suffers from choice paralysis and that this is something that he wants to work on the coming years. He also struggled with picking a dish at the restaurant that we ate at.

He listens to my advice, but then still desires to infinitely mull over it himself, because he holds some sort of belief that he has to do everything himself in the end. If only he would let me help him, he would progress much faster, especially since I already experienced all the ups and downs of the bachelor and can thus easily advise him on what mistakes not to make. I, on the other hand, do take his recommendations to heart. For instance, I'm exercising more and going outdoors more frequently (studying programming is such a sedentary lifestyle). He also convinced me to trim down some of the social contacts that I have been maintaining for the past half a decade without much selection.

Many people, including my LIE professor and SLI study coach, had implored me to do so throughout the years, but I always tried to eat my cake and have it too by going the clever way. I organize about two group activities every month, so I keep in touch with all my old high school friends at once and my political friends, and I make several appointments on a single day, because then the other days I can fully focus on studying.
But the ESI bicycle friend was the first one who made a good argument on reducing the frequency of some social contacts I have, not the number. Everyone else always told me to reduce the number of my social contacts, so I would have more time for studying, yet I have always gotten where I needed to be regarding my study in the end. I thus saw no urgency to make any sacrifices for it, if I knew that I would make it regardless. He, on the other hand, plainly told me that if I'm friends with everyone, I'm friends with none. And that hit home. If I want deep connections with my friends, I have to invest a lot of time in a few of them, instead a little time into many.

I would say that I have good and loyal friends, and contact with most of them I have been able to maintain relatively well, because instead of watching Netflix or gaming like other people do, I spend my time maintaining my large social network. But he does have a point, some of the people I feel closest to, I have seen as little or even less often than people who I deem merely mates or just pals even. And especially with the COVID lockdown plus my master's study it happened that some of my friends I hadn't seen in months, but some pals every month or even twice a month. That's not how things should be. So by just telling me that the number of friends I'm trying to maintain comes at the cost of the depth of my friendships, he was able to convince me where none other could.

[Adam Strange]

Yup @Adam Strange, he has quite obvious Ne-POLR, as he also has trouble picking hobbies for himself to do. He has quite some free time as a bachelor student, but doesn't know what to do. I asked him what his goals are, to which he replied that he wants to learn a new skill and meet people. I recommended him to do the Dutch language course that our university offers, so he can socialize better with the people here. He thought it a good idea, but still procrastinates on it, because he isn't sure if it is the best idea. I found that an odd way of thinking, because he doesn't have any alternatives in mind and now just wastes his time. He admitted, though, that he frequently suffers from choice paralysis and that this is something that he wants to work on the coming years. He also struggled with picking a dish at the restaurant that we ate at.

He listens to my advice, but then still desires to infinitely mull over it himself, because he holds some sort of belief that he has to do everything himself in the end. If only he would let me help him, he would progress much faster, especially since I already experienced all the ups and downs of the bachelor and can thus easily advise him on what mistakes not to make. I, on the other hand, do take his recommendations to heart. For instance, I'm exercising more and going outdoors more frequently (studying programming is such a sedentary lifestyle). He also convinced me to trim down some of the social contacts that I have been maintaining for the past half a decade without much selection.

Many people, including my LIE professor and SLI study coach, had implored me to do so throughout the years, but I always tried to eat my cake and have it too by going the clever way. I organize about two group activities every month, so I keep in touch with all my old high school friends at once and my political friends, and I make several appointments on a single day, because then the other days I can fully focus on studying.
But the ESI bicycle friend was the first one who made a good argument on reducing the frequency of some social contacts I have, not the number. Everyone else always told me to reduce the number of my social contacts, so I would have more time for studying, yet I have always gotten where I needed to be regarding my study in the end. I thus saw no urgency to make any sacrifices for it, if I knew that I would make it regardless. He, on the other hand, plainly told me that if I'm friends with everyone, I'm friends with none. And that hit home. If I want deep connections with my friends, I have to invest a lot of time in a few of them, instead a little time into many.

I would say that I have good and loyal friends, and contact with most of them I have been able to maintain relatively well, because instead of watching Netflix or gaming like other people do, I spend my time maintaining my large social network. But he does have a point, some of the people I feel closest to, I have seen as little or even less often than people who I deem merely mates or just pals even. And especially with the COVID lockdown plus my master's study it happened that some of my friends I hadn't seen in months, but some pals every month or even twice a month. That's not how things should be. So by just telling me that the number of friends I'm trying to maintain comes at the cost of the depth of my friendships, he was able to convince me where none other could.

@Armitage, none of the ESIs whom I know have hobbies.

I like what you said about ignoring the advice you get from random people but immediately following through on the advice you got from Duals. I experience that, too.

I’m an e8 and no one tells me what to do. Except an ESI. To her, I listen and -usually- obey. Which, truthfully, amazes me. It’s like she has a direct line to my insides which bypasses all my defenses.

I find this to be scary as hell, but she doesn’t abuse her power. She is sensitive enough to know when she’s asking me to do something that I’m not comfortable with. Thank god for Duality and shared values.

I don’t know how she feels about being able to completely affect me. I’ve never asked her. But perhaps because she’s an Fi-dom, she’s careful to not misuse her considerable power.

If she wants something and I don’t, then we negotiate and compromise and it has always resulted in a win-win.

[Armitage]

It eludes me, there are so many interesting things to do in life, how can one possibly end up without hobbies?

To me my experiences with the bicycle ESI and your experiences with ESIs, @Adam Strange, are in stark contrast with the guy I dated last summer. I think it really confirms that he wasn't an ESI-Se, but a SLE. Also because he didn't accept any of the Te-compromises I proposed, but wanted things to go his way completely. Last week I saw a guy in the tram who dressed in a similar fashion as him. He clearly showed himself and was playing a small prank on one of his friends. He had a vibe to him that you just couldn't walk around and ignore, he was very present there also in the way he physically took space on the seats. Whereas the ESIs I know tend to fall more back into the shadows, as it were.

In contrast, when I saw the week before that a group of three kids the ESI of them stood out. Despite dressing in similar sportswear as his two friends, the guy was taller than the others and generally walking behind them, not really with them. He had this quiet kid vibe around him and big eyes, whereas the SLE leader was far more talkative when he expressed himself in street slang. The third kid didn't have this living in the here and now Se-vibe about him, as he seemed more aware of the bigger picture based on the snippets of conversation that I picked up. Whenever he did speak it was something that showed a logical awareness, like the precise route they had to follow, in order to get to their destination. He too wore sportswear, but somehow it felt like a dress shirt and jeans would suit him better, than the sweater and sweatpants that he was wearing. I thought that he was an introvert, but it may just be that the SLE leader simply spoke much more than the others.

[Lord Pixel]

Yup @Adam Strange, he has quite obvious Ne-POLR, as he also has trouble picking hobbies for himself to do. He has quite some free time as a bachelor student, but doesn't know what to do. I asked him what his goals are, to which he replied that he wants to learn a new skill and meet people. I recommended him to do the Dutch language course that our university offers, so he can socialize better with the people here. He thought it a good idea, but still procrastinates on it, because he isn't sure if it is the best idea. I found that an odd way of thinking, because he doesn't have any alternatives in mind and now just wastes his time. He admitted, though, that he frequently suffers from choice paralysis and that this is something that he wants to work on the coming years. He also struggled with picking a dish at the restaurant that we ate at.

He listens to my advice, but then still desires to infinitely mull over it himself, because he holds some sort of belief that he has to do everything himself in the end. If only he would let me help him, he would progress much faster, especially since I already experienced all the ups and downs of the bachelor and can thus easily advise him on what mistakes not to make. I, on the other hand, do take his recommendations to heart. For instance, I'm exercising more and going outdoors more frequently (studying programming is such a sedentary lifestyle). He also convinced me to trim down some of the social contacts that I have been maintaining for the past half a decade without much selection.

Many people, including my LIE professor and SLI study coach, had implored me to do so throughout the years, but I always tried to eat my cake and have it too by going the clever way. I organize about two group activities every month, so I keep in touch with all my old high school friends at once and my political friends, and I make several appointments on a single day, because then the other days I can fully focus on studying.
But the ESI bicycle friend was the first one who made a good argument on reducing the frequency of some social contacts I have, not the number. Everyone else always told me to reduce the number of my social contacts, so I would have more time for studying, yet I have always gotten where I needed to be regarding my study in the end. I thus saw no urgency to make any sacrifices for it, if I knew that I would make it regardless. He, on the other hand, plainly told me that if I'm friends with everyone, I'm friends with none. And that hit home. If I want deep connections with my friends, I have to invest a lot of time in a few of them, instead a little time into many.

I would say that I have good and loyal friends, and contact with most of them I have been able to maintain relatively well, because instead of watching Netflix or gaming like other people do, I spend my time maintaining my large social network. But he does have a point, some of the people I feel closest to, I have seen as little or even less often than people who I deem merely mates or just pals even. And especially with the COVID lockdown plus my master's study it happened that some of my friends I hadn't seen in months, but some pals every month or even twice a month. That's not how things should be. So by just telling me that the number of friends I'm trying to maintain comes at the cost of the depth of my friendships, he was able to convince me where none other could.

This is the first time I've ever really seen Fi advice help out a Te lead, usually it's the other way around.
I relate to that belief that you have to do everything yourself in the end, I think it stems from 1D Te making you feel like if you can't do something for yourself you are useless. There's a need to prove to yourself you are not useless. I remember I blew up on my LSE friend one time from trying to help me too much I essientially told him "What am I gonna do if you're not around? I need to know how to do this myself!". He looked pretty shocked but I felt like it was obvious, we are both adults there's no way I can rely on him totally.

[Adam Strange]

This is the first time I've ever really seen Fi advice help out a Te lead.

Jeez. I know a couple ESIs and every day that I see them, their Fi advice makes my life better. Sometimes, way, way better. And I don't mean in a feel-good way, but rather in hard, practical ways.

I've seen them do things in ten minutes that I've tried and failed for eight years to do. You can't buy that kind of help.

I busted up my knee while running, and my physical therapist is an EII. I told her I wanted to get back to running, and she said "With the damage you did to your cartilage, you might have that limp forever. Stop running." I thought, Stop running? Huh. Maybe that's good advice."

Fi doms have the ability to speak so that Te-leads will listen. I don't know how they do it, but they do it.

[Lord Pixel]

Jeez. I know a couple ESIs and every day that I see them, their Fi advice makes my life better. Sometimes, way, way better. And I don't mean in a feel-good way, but rather in hard, practical ways.

I've seen them do things in ten minutes that I've tried and failed for eight years to do. You can't buy that kind of help.

I busted up my knee while running, and my physical therapist is an EII. I told her I wanted to get back to running, and she said "With the damage you did to your cartilage, you might have that limp forever. Stop running." I thought, Stop running? Huh. Maybe that's good advice."

Fi doms have the ability to speak so that Te-leads will listen. I don't know how they do it, but they do it.

Are you sure the ESI's practical advice and ability to to things in ten minutes isn't advice in the realm of Se?

And the EII's advice does sound more Si-ish, but maybe this is all delivered in an Fi tone which helps it get across.

[Adam Strange]

Are you sure the ESI's practical advice and ability to to things in ten minutes isn't advice in the realm of Se?

And the EII's advice does sound more Si-ish, but maybe this is all delivered in an Fi tone which helps it get across.

Lord Pixel, let me explain.

My son collects train equipment. I'm not talking HO trains here, I'm talking signals that the railroad has discarded. These things are the size of a small stove and he has about three tons of them, which he decided to store in one of my buildings. He parks the stuff right in the doorways so it becomes impossible to actually move around in there. I've been trying for eight years to get him to move the stuff outside, where it was for the last 100 years, but he goes ballistic and starts saying that I owe him the space because I was such a shitty father. This is pure bullshit and manipulation, but let me say one thing here. I'm LIE and he's SLI, and when you are around your Supervisor, you are on their territory. So he wins. He's been winning since he was five years old.

Don't have a kid who is your Supervisor. If you do, put them in an orphanage.

Anyway, the ESI had cleaned all the junk out of my house perfectly, and she wanted to do the same for this building. We went out there and she said "Why are all these things here?", meaning his train stuff. I told her I had tried to get my son to get rid of them, or just move them outside, but I had failed.
She picked up her phone and called him and said "Can you come here? We need your help with something."
He showed up in fifteen minutes (because he's her Benefactor) and she said "Your dad and I are cleaning this place up. Do you want to move this equipment out yourself, or is it OK if we do it?"
My son went red in the face and turned to me and said angrily "I feel as if I've been blindsided here. I should just leave." Which is a strategy that he learned from his SLI mother, which I hated, but which worked for her.
I said "I'm out of this discussion. You talk to Anika." And I left the building.
When I returned, ten minutes later, they were happily chatting away, and she had gotten him to agree to move his stuff. It was a fucking miracle. She didn't shout, she didn't threaten, but with her natural talent for Fi, she did what I had not been able to do for eight years.

My god, I need that around all the time.

And yes, the EII's advice was Si. But I get Si advice all the time and I ignore it. She had the advantage of being a semi-dual and an Fi dom, so I wanted to hear what she said and I'm naturally tuned to doing it.

[Lord Pixel]

Lord Pixel, let me explain.

My son collects train equipment. I'm not talking HO trains here, I'm talking signals that the railroad has discarded. These things are the size of a small stove and he has about three tons of them, which he decided to store in one of my buildings. He parks the stuff right in the doorways so it becomes impossible to actually move around in there. I've been trying for eight years to get him to move the stuff outside, where it was for the last 100 years, but he goes ballistic and starts saying that I owe him the space because I was such a shitty father. This is pure bullshit and manipulation, but let me say one thing here. I'm LIE and he's SLI, and when you are around your Supervisor, you are on their territory. So he wins. He's been winning since he was five years old.

Don't have a kid who is your Supervisor. If you do, put them in an orphanage.

HAHA lol.

Anyway, the ESI had cleaned all the junk out of my house perfectly, and she wanted to do the same for this building. We went out there and she said "Why are all these things here?", meaning his train stuff. I told her I had tried to get my son to get rid of them, or just move them outside, but I had failed.
She picked up her phone and called him and said "Can you come here? We need your help with something."
He showed up in fifteen minutes (because he's her Benefactor) and she said "Your dad and I are cleaning this place up. Do you want to move this equipment out yourself, or is it OK if we do it?"
My son went red in the face and turned to me and said angrily "I feel as if I've been blindsided here. I should just leave." Which is a strategy that he learned from his SLI mother, which I hated, but which worked for her.
I said "I'm out of this discussion. You talk to Anika." And I left the building.
When I returned, ten minutes later, they were happily chatting away, and she had gotten him to agree to move his stuff. It was a fucking miracle. She didn't shout, she didn't threaten, but with her natural talent for Fi, she did what I had not been able to do for eight years.

My god, I need that around all the time.

And yes, the EII's advice was Si. But I get Si advice all the time and I ignore it. She had the advantage of being a semi-dual and an Fi dom, so I wanted to hear what she said and I'm naturally tuned to doing it.

Yea honestly this is all new to me. I just don't ever see this side of things.

[Kindness]

Hahaha, well, we LIEs do have one big difficulty that compensates for all the advantages in Intertype Relations, though. It is namely extremely hard to be accepted by our dual. ESIs tend to live life with their set circle of friends and if you don't belong yet to this group it's very challenging to get accepted into it by them. My ESI bicycle friend mentioned the other day how he didn't even pay attention to the friends of his friends when they on occassions that they were hanging out as a group. To him they were just acquintances that might as well not exist. The only reason why he and I have been able to become friends is because he moved from Germany to the Netherlands for his psychology study and was therefore actively looking for a new friend circle. Then I offered to help him repair his bike at just the right moment.

In contrast, another ESI I knew never fully accepted me as a friend, despite being at scouting for more than half a decade together, frequently meeting up, and even being invited to his birthday party, all because he had a different primary friend circle, which meant I that in his eyes I was some second-rate friend, even though I always showed up and supported him when his primary friend group left him hanging. In a way ESIs are like ducklings, they imprint on someone, so whoever they first befriend will be their friend forever to the exclusion of anyone else who might actually treat the ESI much better.

Oh God if that ain't the truth. This one ESI was very doting and flattering and followed me around everywhere, looked up to me for years, until I confronted him twice, somewhat aggressively, about a few things he said that i didn't want to hear. Boom-- he backs off overnight, like a switch's been flipped. No engagement, doesn't want to talk to me, hardly acknowledges that I exist. It confused me terribly, and understanding WTF had just happened was actually one of the main reasons I got into socionics.

We made up a year later, and now he's dating this EII who's also a friend of mine and in my opinion isn't good enough for him. I don't really get what he sees in the guy, he's not awful, but he's immature and certainly not worth dropping out of law school for. The ESI has even quietly expressed sadness to me that i feel like is being caused by his boyfriend's obliviousness and other shortcomings. I buy that ESIs imprint like ducklings and i'm sure that's what happened here, however i think it's supposed to work out in their best interest, assuming they're smart about it... this ESI specifically mentioned having hope for who his bf will grow to be, so that's HA Ni+ for ya. The two of them are also very sexually compatible. And though the boyfriend frustrates me personally, he does provide the constant moral support and attentive listening the ESI needs.

The thing about primary and secondary friends is super true, it used to bother me but I came around to appreciating how the rigidity of his expectations for contact can be comfortable for both parties, if those expectations are true to life (and they generally are). My younger brother is also ESI and while it stung a bit for him to ask me a math question, I can't give a helpful answer, and he never asks me anything of the sort again -- demolishing my ego as his elder sibling -- there's really no practicality nor sustainability to entertaining the illusion that i could help him in that arena.
For this irresponsible Supervisor, I feel like with ESI you're constantly being tested, monitored to see if your response to each new inquiry is sufficient, then they measure and cut a little bit below what you provide and come back the next time they want that thing in specific. So long as you're cool with that, it's a remarkably comfortable arrangement. I've made my peace and am comfy with my ESIs coming and going as they will; I can sense that i just can't provide the bulk of what they need day-to-day, and my faux-generous self is happy to be asked for as little as possible. I think other, less sensitive types are misled by or even try to take advantage of IEE's generous facade, and I end up getting resentful or having to distance myself, but by staying conservative, the ESIs who want my contact manage to establish a foothold in my life.

But, yes, woe betide the poor Dual who wants to get closer <:')

(Also, that's one more point towards Supervision being a surveilling kind of relationship from the Supervisee towards the Supervisor. I wonder if that's a Holo-Pano thing?)

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Sweet but ditzy.

I'll take it. It's kind of cute anyway. There are a lot worse things you could be than sweet and ditzy tbh.

[Bethanyclaire]

Sweet but ditzy.

I'll take it. It's kind of cute anyway. There are a lot worse things you could be than sweet and ditzy tbh.

it’s how I’ve ended up lol. But I was A/A* student in school, I loved getting good grades. I don’t think I was meant to turn out so literally sweet but ditzy lol. Fortunately, I didn’t altogether lose the famous IEI charm..so I get by

Everyone must seem ditzy to an LIE anyway haha

[Stray Cat]

I'd say it's the person who's wise enough to get along with each type "appropriately". In my opinion, Fe egos have great relations with others but they, themselves, may be silently unhappy. If Fe is about including others and raising their spirits, they will likely succeed. They could be be well liked but at the same time neglect their own particular emotional needs. Some folk may dislike their Fe but can still enjoy an Fe ego for their warmth in short bursts.

[Armitage]

Some folk may dislike their Fe but can still enjoy an Fe ego for their warmth in short bursts.

Let's put this to the test, cue the ILI army! Welcome @End, @Tarnished, @Rune, @Vis, @Nicozeyo, @adage and @crazymaisy!

[crazymaisy]

Let's put it to the music test, what kind of music do I like: A ton and most of what I love is not very emotive per se.

Snow Patrol. They are very Fi/FE in my opinion.

I can do that sometimes. But a steady diet of that would make me ill.

Any gushy word/sounds together is just a special seldom used category.

Voices that are dry are my favorite. In rock/pop any wet mushy gooshy voice is FE and I pretty much don't like them.

In public I am very polite. At home I have an IEI whom thankfully is my kindred and likes to shut herself in a lot.

I don't like FE displays, depending on who is doing it, strangers, I'd stare with my mouth hanging open. At home I don't like my own FE outbursts, but enjoy passionate talk from/with my IEI daughter at times, and I don't know anyone else close to me that has FE in their main-2.

If FE is too much? I'll excuse myself and go somewhere else. Polite terseness, exit.

[adage]

I have lived in a heavy loud Fe environment, so Fe to me has been the norm for a long time. I cannot avoid it most days.

I have no problem with people using Fe so long as it's not an obligation to everyone present to answer in the way the Fe lead wants, that's tiring to me and I can't keep up. Each want things going a certain way, there's no one-size-fits-all and I lack what it takes to figure it out in real time.
So far, most are okay with the basic smile I crafted and keep on my face most time, looks like *

What bothers me is when they want to lift spirits, because they judged I'm down when I'm not, I'm peaceful or something calm.
That's really the part where Fe becomes distressing for everyone. I don't have enough to live up to their preferances, so they stress themselves to liven up too much which then stresses everyone around and me into nervous laughing and then they're happy, like some crisis was averted and I feel like shit.
There are times Fe leads noticed I was growing distant so they said I looked unwell with enough conviction I ended up believing it, which made me close down on the new horizons I was looking at and turn back to them. I have to add, the people I'm referring to aren't healthy and "needed" me to fill in gaps. Barely any T around, so I was both socialy sub-part and needed for efficiency.
This can be avoided with self-awareness and comminucation, but you need people who are willing to put in the work which isn't everyone.

It's also true too many people talking loudly makes me want to leave, I prefer calmer conversations, more subdued atmospheres, even no talking at all, times where I don't have to watch my face to prove... stuff.
I've seen Fe leads being self-aware enough they are able to accept and even appreciate that, it's not their preferences, but I think we can all manage to learn what's good about other ways and appreciate them.


*Edit: I had one scary resting face as a kid, looked about to murder everyone in sight.

[ILoveChinchillas]

Let's put this to the test, cue the ILI army! Welcome @End, @Tarnished, @Rune, @Vis, @Nicozeyo, @adage and @crazymaisy!

Yes it's possible but mixed. When I was younger, I had an instinctual distrust of anyone who was overly warm or friendly. As I've gotten older and less angsty, I've become more sociable and understanding of warmth in other people. Initially, the warmth can be enjoyable if presented in the right way. Problems arise when the Fe ego starts showing warmth to other people under different contexts and in different, contradictory messages. Then, it becomes confusing and comes across as fake. It can also be a problem under social contexts where integrity is a must (like Church). Then, it can come across as duplicitous.

[ILoveChinchillas]

In my opinion, Fe egos have great relations with others but they, themselves, may be silently unhappy. If Fe is about including others and raising their spirits, they will likely succeed. They could be be well liked but at the same time neglect their own particular emotional needs.

This aligns with my experiences.

It utterly confuses me how someone could live like this. How is it possible that someone sacrifices their own integrity to the point where their presentation is out of synch with their true emotions? It seems like a lose-lose situation when I don't care to have my mood lifted, because they have to live with my state of neutrality while I have to live with their true unhappiness. At worst, when they try to lift my spirits, it can feel like they're trying to take advantage of me.

It just convinces me more that my dual is SEE, a type that typically values integrity and loyalty. I would rather someone communicate their unhappiness upfront than try to lift my spirits.

[End]

Hahaha, well, we LIEs do have one big difficulty that compensates for all the advantages in Intertype Relations, though. It is namely extremely hard to be accepted by our dual. ESIs tend to live life with their set circle of friends and if you don't belong yet to this group it's very challenging to get accepted into it by them. My ESI bicycle friend mentioned the other day how he didn't even pay attention to the friends of his friends when they on occassions that they were hanging out as a group. To him they were just acquintances that might as well not exist. The only reason why he and I have been able to become friends is because he moved from Germany to the Netherlands for his psychology study and was therefore actively looking for a new friend circle. Then I offered to help him repair his bike at just the right moment.

In contrast, another ESI I knew never fully accepted me as a friend, despite being at scouting for more than half a decade together, frequently meeting up, and even being invited to his birthday party, all because he had a different primary friend circle, which meant I that in his eyes I was some second-rate friend, even though I always showed up and supported him when his primary friend group left him hanging. In a way ESIs are like ducklings, they imprint on someone, so whoever they first befriend will be their friend forever to the exclusion of anyone else who might actually treat the ESI much better.

I guess this might be a thing in regards to mirrors. You may frequently meet your dual type but it's hard to get accepted or even recognized by them. Or, from the ESI's standpoint, for you to actually differentiate yourself from that ocean of admirers and hangers on. They are natural iconoclasts and artists. My type is as well but it hits quite different if we end up pursuing that path but I digress.

We ILI's and those types like us suffer the opposite problem. See, if we ever met SEE's somehow on the regular we'd likely instantly hit it off. Hell, just meeting one who lacked attachment issues would likely result in both of us getting married within months! Small problem that. See, grand conspirators plotting in their lairs who have few "friends" to begin with aren't exactly cut out nor exactly seeking for the party scene and vice versa. It ain't like we try to isolate ourselves from society at large, but dominance kind of causes that to happen regardless. I'm sure the IEI's out there can relate. They're way better at getting out there and relating to people, but well, gosh darn it why the hell can't they see what's really happening? Even they, while they got a higher capacity for it, can only "fake it" for so darn long before they too snap under the weight of the idiocy of the common masses...

I will once more point out my other major obsession. No amount of ITR theory will fix the biggest problem everyone will face in regards to experiencing positive outcomes in regards to interpersonal relationships. Bad attachment will guarantee shitty relationships even with your dual. Fix that first folks.

I will also say that your experience with how ESI's are like ducklings is also similar to how ILI's see friends. It's a bit inverted however. ILI's are slow to trust and will likely mess up somehow. I forget the analogy now but it nailed it. After a certain point if you convince an ILI that you're well and truly their friend you've made a friend for life. ILI's have their nuclear family and the few they call friend. I do believe the description of the Gamma Quadra said of paired with results in a tendency for self-sacrifice...

[Armitage]

@Rune, why would displaying warmth at church be contradictory to integrity and possibly even duplicitous?