Fi PoLR - Misunderstood

[sbbds]

@inaLim You mentioned that you keep a 5000ft psychological distance from people lol (not unrelatable... though I’ve noticed that with I and some other xLEs at work, we actually have (at least seemingly) lots of deep personal connections with almost everybody, and we’ve noticed this about each other funnily enough with one of my managers... when she pointed out that some people at our workplace said they felt they could only open up to me, I automatically replied saying “That’s creepy”). Your descriptions of both Fe and Fi seemed to only focus on the negative aspects of them. How would you describe what you need emotionally from others?

[grumpyvic81]

I'm speaking in general, not about any specific situation.
If someone stole money from you, continually, on purpose, not - thought it was their's, not - thought they could borrow it, but knew it was your money and they took it anyway. They had bad intentions, it's obvious to them what they are doing is wrong to you. So if you bail on the person, they don't have to be a mind reader to know why, they should not be surprised. You don't have to be an F type to know not to steal from your friends. There are somethings that people understand regardless of type.

Stealing is such a basic example - it's not even legal. It's the most basic morality really. What I was talking about was not about such obvious basics. And I've seen feelers majorly misunderstand intents on more nuanced stuff. That to them is "obvious" but in actuality it requires mind reading.

[grumpyvic81]

To me Fe is like a salesman that can run you over or a seducer that can suck you in if you don't have a mind of your own. When Fe egos do it, its like they try to nudge, push, or pitch me their idea of what I was/am/could be.

And Fi is like an ironclad contract with hidden clauses that got drawn up between them and a representative appointed for me. When Fi egos do it, its like they set up a replica of me and start building a relationship with that as if they're getting closer to me.


That's my personal impression of Fe vs Fi. I'll take the salesman. I can handle Fe.

Great desc for Fe (sometimes this stuff is positive tho), and your comment that you gotta have a mind of your own yeah. Very good point. With Fi I'm not finding that they are that rigid, that made me think of Ti/Te more. Even ESI I don't find that rigid, so that's interesting

[Lord Pixel]

Stealing is such a basic example - it's not even legal. It's the most basic morality really. What I was talking about was not about such obvious basics. And I've seen feelers majorly misunderstand intents on more nuanced stuff. That to them is "obvious" but in actuality it requires mind reading.

You originally quoted me on something saying it was unreasonable because it requires mindreading. What you quoted me on was talking about basic morality that is obvious to most people.

And that's my whole point, that there's a basic morality anybody could understand regardless of type, that doesn't require mind reading. So whatever you are talking about is not what I originally was talking about when you quoted me. I'm talking about basic shit people already know is wrong to do, and why they shouldn't be surprised if someone decides to ditch them for doing that.

[grumpyvic81]

You originally quoted me on something saying it was unreasonable because it requires mindreading. What you quoted me on was talking about basic morality that is obvious to most people.

And that's my whole point, that there's a basic morality anybody could understand regardless of type, that doesn't require mind reading. So whatever you are talking about is not what I originally was talking about when you quoted me. I'm talking about basic shit people already know is wrong to do, and why they shouldn't be surprised if someone decides to ditch them for doing that.

What you said originally was: "That's what I was thinking after I read the responses also. I had an ILE roomate who occasionaly would ask me things like "So I'm you're best friend right?" "Where do I rank on your friend's list?" ( I know that sounds weird but in the context of the convo it wasn't). Like he had to check in with me because he wanted to know. At the time it was strange for me because I cudn't understand how he did not know considering the "vibe" between us. And that's what I mean't when I said Fi PoLR can do screwed up things to you and still ask things like "We are best friends right?" thinking you are still gonna like them after the completely screwed up thing they did, which blows my mind."

"Yes and they look at me like "We're not friends anymore....?" sad look. Like wtf it's not my fault ur an asshat, they should have seen that coming. But my guess is Fi PoLR can't really see how their actions influence the relationship or something? Or where the relationship stands if the F is silent, which makes sense except treating someone like shit and not knowing they are gonna bail on you (even if they never say anything about how you treat them) is kinda like....how do you not see that coming? But it's probably all the nature of the PoLR."



Are you trying to say then that Fi PoLRs just steal and do other really basic shit like that and not understand that stealing is wrong?

[Lord Pixel]

"Yes and they look at me like "We're not friends anymore....?" sad look. Like wtf it's not my fault ur an asshat, they should have seen that coming. But my guess is Fi PoLR can't really see how their actions influence the relationship or something? Or where the relationship stands if the F is silent, which makes sense except treating someone like shit and not knowing they are gonna bail on you (even if they never say anything about how you treat them) is kinda like....how do you not see that coming? But it's probably all the nature of the PoLR."

Are you trying to say then that Fi PoLRs just steal and do other really basic shit like that and not understand that stealing is wrong?

Nope. I'm haven't said anything about Fi PoLR or T types not knowing whats wrong or right. You're saying some of it's not obvious to T types what's obvious to F. Which sure, such is the nature of types in general.

What I was talking about is having Fi PoLR friends who knew what they did to me was wrong and were surprised that I didn't want to hang out with them anymore. And pouting about it. No mind reading needed since they know.

[grumpyvic81]

Nope. I'm haven't said anything about Fi PoLR or T types not knowing whats wrong or right. You're saying some of it's not obvious to T types what's obvious to F. Which sure, such is the nature of types in general.

What I was talking about is having Fi PoLR friends who knew what they did to me was wrong and were surprised that I didn't want to hang out with them anymore. And pouting about it. No mind reading needed since they know.

I'm not convinced they really knew like you would assume looking at the situation through your own lenses of perception. Unless you do mean they were stealing or other such really basic shit that literally everyone knows about. All in all, what you are talking about is either "they stole from me so they knew they did wrong but they acted like surprised" OR "they didn't steal from me but did less obvious wrong stuff so they did not know it upset you deeply and so they are surprised"

[Lord Pixel]

I'm not convinced they really knew like you would assume looking at the situation through your own lenses of perception. Unless you do mean they were stealing or other such really basic shit that literally everyone knows about. All in all, what you are talking about is either "they stole from me so they knew they did wrong but they acted like surprised" OR "they didn't steal from me but did less obvious wrong stuff so they did not know it upset you deeply and so they are surprised"

Since you brought it up multiple times, I feel like your looking at what I'm saying through the bias of knowing feelers who have misunderstood your or someones intentions. Consider that I'm not all the people you've met before me and that what I'm telling you is at face value. They did something wrong, knew it was wrong, and were surprised I didn't like them anymore. Don't know how to get more clear than that. I'm done.

[grumpyvic81]

Since you brought it up multiple times, I feel like your looking at what I'm saying through the bias of knowing feelers who have misunderstood your or someones intentions. Consider that I'm not all the people you've met before me and that what I'm telling you is at face value. They did something wrong, knew it was wrong, and were surprised I didn't like them anymore. Don't know how to get more clear than that. I'm done.

I'm not surprised you were unable to address the contradiction I pointed out

Nice convenient but transparent cop-out for you to try and "explain it away" by trying to assume stuff about my person, while you don't even know me lol

[Lord Pixel]

I'm not surprised you were unable to address the contradiction I pointed out

Nice convenient but transparent cop-out for you to try and "explain it away" by trying to assume stuff about my person, while you don't even know me lol

You don't know me but assume I'm misinterpreting people because I'm a feeler that's talking about T types. While replying to me you felt the need to talk about your experience with feelers misinterpreting T types, like your trying to imply that's what I'm doing, leaving that option open while I been telling you that's not the case but for whatever reason you don't believe that, and my guess is due to your already developed bias. I had a friend who told me a joke about an earthquake that hit my home country's capital and killed alot of people and destroyed their equivalent of the white house. My friend made a joke about a Pokémon hitting the country with earthquake, after it came on the news. Now having to tell someone this is fucked up is already beyond me, but nonetheless I tell him " that's fucked up man! Why would you say that to me knowing my family is from there." He still thought it was funny, laughed, laughed in my face, ran off laughing. Now if it wasn't already obvious that you don't so dumb shit like that to your friends, now its known, and guess what, he didn't give a fuck. You're telling me his T brain couldn't understand that? Is that too nuanced to get? Did I misinterpret that? I didn't think so either. He was ILE, Fi-Polr. And after constant bullshit like that and physically hitting me like a fucking child, which I constantly told him to cut that shit out even yelled at him for it (and so did other people when he did it to them), after all that I just ghosted him and to my surprise he was confused why I didn't hang out anymore. He didn't act surprised, didn't seem confused about why that joke and other bullshit he did, that I even TOLD him to quit doing, was shit I didn't like, what he couldn't understand was how that caused me to stop liking him as a person. He got off on pissing me off, ESPECIALLY when I voiced how pissed off what he did made me, it made it more fun for him since he laughed more when I would tell him to stop doing wutever the hell he was doing to annoy me, it's like he liked it or something. So even in situations where there's no "mind reading" necessary I still got the pouty confused "were not friends anymore?" face. Idk if Fi PoLR has the ability to see how much someone does or doesn't like them. So you can quit assuming that I'm misinterpreting people because I'm a feeler and they were T, just because you seen it before. I'm not even talking about all T types, I'm talking about Fi PoLR types. And this isn't the only person that was Fi PoLR that has done bullshit like this to me or even other T types, even AFTER I told them to cut it out, which made them wanna do it more for some sadistic reason. So I don't know what contradiction you're talking about. And if you need a whole list of details, go back to my original post and scroll down under that to my next post and see all the examples for yourself.

[grumpyvic81]

You don't know me but assume I'm misinterpreting people because I'm a feeler that's talking about T types. While replying to me you felt the need to talk about your experience with feelers misinterpreting T types, like your trying to imply that's what I'm doing, leaving that option open while I been telling you that's not the case but for whatever reason you don't believe that, and my guess is due to your already developed bias.

The reason was given in my earlier post #504. But thanks for providing more details.

I had a friend who told me a joke about an earthquake that hit my home country's capital and killed alot of people and destroyed their equivalent of the white house. My friend made a joke about a Pokémon hitting the country with earthquake, after it came on the news. Now having to tell someone this is fucked up is already beyond me, but nonetheless I tell him " that's fucked up man! Why would you say that to me knowing my family is from there." He still thought it was funny, laughed, laughed in my face, ran off laughing. Now if it wasn't already obvious that you don't so dumb shit like that to your friends, now its known, and guess what, he didn't give a fuck. You're telling me his T brain couldn't understand that? Is that too nuanced to get? Did I misinterpret that? I didn't think so either. He was ILE, Fi-Polr. And after constant bullshit like that and physically hitting me like a fucking child, which I constantly told him to cut that shit out even yelled at him for it (and so did other people when he did it to them), after all that I just ghosted him and to my surprise he was confused why I didn't hang out anymore. He didn't act surprised, didn't seem confused about why that joke and other bullshit he did, that I even TOLD him to quit doing, was shit I didn't like, what he couldn't understand was how that caused me to stop liking him as a person.

So he wasn't stealing from you. If I can make an educated guess, he didn't understand how repeated annoyance can get stuck for you deep enough to not want to even be around him anymore despite being good friends before. Or he didn't understand that you were feeling like it was more personal than it was for him.

He got off on pissing me off, ESPECIALLY when I voiced how pissed off what he did made me, it made it more fun for him since he laughed more when I would tell him to stop doing wutever the hell he was doing to annoy me, it's like he liked it or something. So even in situations where there's no "mind reading" necessary I still got the pouty confused "were not friends anymore?" face. Idk if Fi PoLR has the ability to see how much someone does or doesn't like them.

That's the thing, Fi PoLR doesn't follow the deep nuances easily.

So you can quit assuming that I'm misinterpreting people because I'm a feeler and they were T, just because you seen it before. I'm not even talking about all T types, I'm talking about Fi PoLR types.

I've seen many Logical types have issues with misunderstandings, not in the same way as the Fi PoLR version, it plays out differently for other Logical types.

In my observations, it doesn't even matter if socionically the Logic and Ethics are supposed to match (e.g. Ti/Fe, Te/Fi).

And this isn't the only person that was Fi PoLR that has done bullshit like this to me or even other T types, even AFTER I told them to cut it out, which made them wanna do it more for some sadistic reason. So I don't know what contradiction you're talking about. And if you need a whole list of details, go back to my original post and scroll down under that to my next post and see all the examples for yourself.

I think they just don't fully register that it goes that deep for you in a personal way. This is what I meant by some things not being obvious to Logical types even if it seems obvious to Ethical types. Or that it's just plain very different thinking that's sometimes really hard to reconcile.

Classic example... keeping in mind how men are more Logical and women are more Ethical on average - Guy wanting sex and then getting intimacy / emotional connection (Fe/Fi, doesn't matter) AFTER. Woman wanting it the other way around.

Good luck reconciling that easily lol

[inaLim]

Your descriptions of both Fe and Fi seemed to only focus on the negative aspects of them. How would you describe what you need emotionally from others?

That was in response to @grumpyvic81 (post #495) saying both Fi and Fe feelers can project their own feeling of who you are. I was just clarifying how they do it differently.

I'm not going to say I don't need anything emotionally from others. We're social animals, most of us need each other to stay sane. But I don't have that drive to maintain relationships (plural) on the basis of meeting emotional needs. My drive to interact with people tends to be for information gathering/getting shit done/entertainment. Boredom apparently is an emotion, but I don't think that's what most people mean.

It wasn't meant to be a full description of Fe, and I don't view what I said about Fe as negative. I'm in my element with Fe. You need waves if you're going to surf. Rational Fe is a bit overload, and I far prefer Ni to feeling, but that's for another post. When people talk about connection, Ni fulfills me more than Fe. Fe is just the temporary contact high.

[sbbds]

I'm not going to say I don't need anything emotionally from others. We're social animals, most of us need each other to stay sane. But I don't have that drive to maintain relationships (plural) on the basis of meeting emotional needs. My drive to interact with people tends to be for information gathering/getting shit done/entertainment. Boredom apparently is an emotion, but I don't think that's what most people mean.

Ok. Would you say that your emotional/social needs are just easy to meet then? It sounds like what you said you are consciously driven towards is more like wants than needs, and you didn't give any specific definition of what your specific needs are, even though you acknowledged that you have them. It sounds like it might be vague to yourself too. I'm asking because I feel they are vague for me too, and it might be a good thought exercise for us both, even if a bit uncomfortable lol.

[Lord Pixel]

The reason was given in my earlier post #504. But thanks for providing more details.




So he wasn't stealing from you. If I can make an educated guess, he didn't understand how repeated annoyance can get stuck for you deep enough to not want to even be around him anymore despite being good friends before. Or he didn't understand that you were feeling like it was more personal than it was for him.




That's the thing, Fi PoLR doesn't follow the deep nuances easily.




I've seen many Logical types have issues with misunderstandings, not in the same way as the Fi PoLR version, it plays out differently for other Logical types.

In my observations, it doesn't even matter if socionically the Logic and Ethics are supposed to match (e.g. Ti/Fe, Te/Fi).




I think they just don't fully register that it goes that deep for you in a personal way. This is what I meant by some things not being obvious to Logical types even if it seems obvious to Ethical types. Or that it's just plain very different thinking that's sometimes really hard to reconcile.

Classic example... keeping in mind how men are more Logical and women are more Ethical on average - Guy wanting sex and then getting intimacy / emotional connection (Fe/Fi, doesn't matter) AFTER. Woman wanting it the other way around.

Good luck reconciling that easily lol

Yea Fi-PoLR I don't think can understand deep affects on people. But whether they weren't told about something I saw as obvious, or they were told but for some reason didn't give a damn, their intentions were not misunderstood. You don't say a joke like that to make someone who is affected by it happy, you don't hit someone to make them happy, you do that to cause some kind of pain, whether playful or not, whether you understand the extent of that pain doesn't even matter because you set out to do something that was aimed at hurting someone. If you know someone who dies from coronavirus and your friend makes a joke about them dieing from coronavirus like right after you tell them, what's being misinterpreted? They wanted to say a fucked up joke at your expense and they did. So they know their intentions, and that's what I'm saying is obvious, even if how much it hurts someone is not. It's not always some innocent social faux pas they do, because I've had friends even admit to me they knew it was wrong and did it anyway. I've seen a T type be misinterpreted and it's not the same, they say a harsh fact and it's taken as them being an asshole, but their intention was just to say the truth. So they don't have to be a mind reader to know their own intentions towards someone are not good and maybe that's why they decided to bail on you after all this time, but yes I think Fi PoLR might not be able to see or always think about how deep their actions can affect someone, especially if it's just words. or all the silent implicit things in a relationship that might cause it to change. I think T types don't always think about how their actions affect how someone feels which causes alot of the misunderstanding but Fi PoLR can't really understand how deeply it affects someone while some types can, probably ones with mobilizing Fi can understand quicker.

[inaLim]

Ok. Would you say that your emotional/social needs are just easy to meet then? It sounds like what you said you are consciously driven towards is more like wants than needs, and you didn't give any specific definition of what your specific needs are, even though you acknowledged that you have them. It sounds like it might be vague to yourself too. I'm asking because I feel they are vague for me too, and it might be a good thought exercise for us both, even if a bit uncomfortable lol.

I'll have to think about how to answer that. I don't know if my needs are high or low. I do know e8 dismisses their own needs. Which I definitely do.

I left off the 2nd half of what I started to post, because its was just some quotes and thoughts I hadn't fleshed out.

---Here it is what I was going to post (Remember SLE e8/9 sexual/self-preservation instinct)---

Sx Eight - Dictator - the drive for possession and surrender.
Sx Nine - Seeker - sexual or spiritual union and the urge to merge.
SP Eight - Survivalist - protecting the space and the family.

SX is all-consuming, seeking to consume and be consumed by one Other person. It is the sexual instinct, the death instinct. Two SXs together create their own world, their own reality, rip out their own hearts to give to the other, meld their souls, live and breathe each other’s existence. An SX without that Other Half continues to seek for connection, wandering and searching for that world to share alone with another person.

A game does indeed bring men together, but in such a way that each forgets himself in the process. In poetry on the other hand, man is re-united on the foundation of his existence. There he comes to rest; not indeed to the seeming rest of inactivity and emptiness of thought, but to that infinite state of rest in which all powers and relations are active

That quote was about poetry, but I take it as a kind of intimacy (by intimacy I mean engulfment, possession/surrender, fusion) that "re-unites us on the foundation of our existence," and brings us to a state "in which all powers and relations are active." There is a kind of connection that is like "breathing each other's existence." You can call it twin souls, soulmates, bonnie and clyde, whatever. Anything other than THE ONE is not even close to enough.

Other relations are closer to the game, where yes, you come together, but who you are (not the identity you construct, but the raw primal spirit) gets forgotten behind obligations, commitments, social masks, pride, self censoring, aspiration to ideals, old dreams of the child we no longer are, promises we made to our past selves, etc. Or just muted or distorted in translation trying to make it work across various divides like Quadra.


--------

Social needs, I'm not sure. Shitty Fi. e8. Social intinct last.

[grumpyvic81]

Ok. Would you say that your emotional/social needs are just easy to meet then? It sounds like what you said you are consciously driven towards is more like wants than needs, and you didn't give any specific definition of what your specific needs are, even though you acknowledged that you have them. It sounds like it might be vague to yourself too. I'm asking because I feel they are vague for me too, and it might be a good thought exercise for us both, even if a bit uncomfortable lol.

Good exercise for any Beta ST it seems lol. My emotional needs are so vague they are like nonexistent. You ask me about them, I'll just stare blank at you, lol

Okay it's not as dramatic as that anymore, I've made progress over time with fleshing them out but it's a long long project.

It doesn't help that I have a really strong knee-jerk reflex dismissing the idea of having emotional needs anyway lol and that I see it as an insult if anyone assumes I have any. The softer the shit the more annoyed I get.

I'm also conscious and very comfortable about wants otherwise yeah

Edit: I clarify the emotional needs by reading material on it, some stuff may not be as interesting sx stuff as quoted in the other post here, but it helps with grounding too and being realistic and actually implementing stuff/making it materialise in reality in a solid and lasting way.

I'll have to think about how to answer that. I don't know if my needs are high or low. I do know e8 dismisses their own needs. Which I definitely do.

I left off the 2nd half of what I started to post, because its was just some quotes and thoughts I hadn't fleshed out.

---Here it is what I was going to post (Remember SLE e8/9 sexual/self-preservation instinct)---

That quote was about poetry, but I take it as a kind of intimacy (by intimacy I mean engulfment, possession/surrender, fusion) that "re-unites us on the foundation of our existence," and brings us to a state "in which all powers and relations are active." There is a kind of connection that is like "breathing each other's existence." You can call it twin souls, soulmates, bonnie and clyde, whatever. Anything other than THE ONE is not even close to enough.

Other relations are closer to the game, where yes, you come together, but who you are (not the identity you construct, but the raw primal spirit) gets forgotten behind obligations, commitments, social masks, pride, self censoring, aspiration to ideals, old dreams of the child we no longer are, promises we made to our past selves, etc. Or just muted or distorted in translation trying to make it work across various divides like Quadra.

--------

Social needs, I'm not sure. Shitty Fi. e8. Social intinct last.

All that sounds cool actually.

[grumpyvic81]

Yea Fi-PoLR I don't think can understand deep affects on people. But whether they weren't told about something I saw as obvious, or they were told but for some reason didn't give a damn, their intentions were not misunderstood. You don't say a joke like that to make someone who is affected by it happy, you don't hit someone to make them happy, you do that to cause some kind of pain, whether playful or not, whether you understand the extent of that pain doesn't even matter because you set out to do something that was aimed at hurting someone. If you know someone who dies from coronavirus and your friend makes a joke about them dieing from coronavirus like right after you tell them, what's being misinterpreted? They wanted to say a fucked up joke at your expense and they did. So they know their intentions, and that's what I'm saying is obvious, even if how much it hurts someone is not. It's not always some innocent social faux pas they do, because I've had friends even admit to me they knew it was wrong and did it anyway. I've seen a T type be misinterpreted and it's not the same, they say a harsh fact and it's taken as them being an asshole, but their intention was just to say the truth. So they don't have to be a mind reader to know their own intentions towards someone are not good and maybe that's why they decided to bail on you after all this time, but yes I think Fi PoLR might not be able to see or always think about how deep their actions can affect someone, especially if it's just words. or all the silent implicit things in a relationship that might cause it to change. I think T types don't always think about how their actions affect how someone feels which causes alot of the misunderstanding but Fi PoLR can't really understand how deeply it affects someone while some types can, probably ones with mobilizing Fi can understand quicker.

Alright I would say there's a difference between being serious about doing stuff at your expense for real and between just having a certain mood that's not really real in that way. But that's obviously Fe for you, it's at odds with your Fi. Socionics 101 ofc. My point though is that the intention isn't an actually malicious or serious one.

Yeah, talking blunt or critical is another way the logic/feeler stuff can conflict sure.

[sbbds]

I'll have to think about how to answer that. I don't know if my needs are high or low. I do know e8 dismisses their own needs. Which I definitely do.

I left off the 2nd half of what I started to post, because its was just some quotes and thoughts I hadn't fleshed out.

---Here it is what I was going to post (Remember SLE e8/9 sexual/self-preservation instinct)---







That quote was about poetry, but I take it as a kind of intimacy (by intimacy I mean engulfment, possession/surrender, fusion) that "re-unites us on the foundation of our existence," and brings us to a state "in which all powers and relations are active." There is a kind of connection that is like "breathing each other's existence." You can call it twin souls, soulmates, bonnie and clyde, whatever. Anything other than THE ONE is not even close to enough.

Other relations are closer to the game, where yes, you come together, but who you are (not the identity you construct, but the raw primal spirit) gets forgotten behind obligations, commitments, social masks, pride, self censoring, aspiration to ideals, old dreams of the child we no longer are, promises we made to our past selves, etc. Or just muted or distorted in translation trying to make it work across various divides like Quadra.


--------

Social needs, I'm not sure. Shitty Fi. e8. Social intinct last.

Cool, I relate. A need for an intense, powerful, basically spiritual type connection experience. I can see how it relates to how you mentioned that you find Ni more fulfilling.

[sbbds]

Yea Fi-PoLR I don't think can understand deep affects on people. But whether they weren't told about something I saw as obvious, or they were told but for some reason didn't give a damn, their intentions were not misunderstood. You don't say a joke like that to make someone who is affected by it happy, you don't hit someone to make them happy, you do that to cause some kind of pain, whether playful or not, whether you understand the extent of that pain doesn't even matter because you set out to do something that was aimed at hurting someone. If you know someone who dies from coronavirus and your friend makes a joke about them dieing from coronavirus like right after you tell them, what's being misinterpreted? They wanted to say a fucked up joke at your expense and they did. So they know their intentions, and that's what I'm saying is obvious, even if how much it hurts someone is not. It's not always some innocent social faux pas they do, because I've had friends even admit to me they knew it was wrong and did it anyway. I've seen a T type be misinterpreted and it's not the same, they say a harsh fact and it's taken as them being an asshole, but their intention was just to say the truth. So they don't have to be a mind reader to know their own intentions towards someone are not good and maybe that's why they decided to bail on you after all this time, but yes I think Fi PoLR might not be able to see or always think about how deep their actions can affect someone, especially if it's just words. or all the silent implicit things in a relationship that might cause it to change. I think T types don't always think about how their actions affect how someone feels which causes alot of the misunderstanding but Fi PoLR can't really understand how deeply it affects someone while some types can, probably ones with mobilizing Fi can understand quicker.

I’m pretty sure the majority of these Fi polr guys you’ve been talking about do or could get it actually, at least in some small corner of their minds... they are just actively in denial to themselves and/or pretending not to understand, to you. Like they are trying to piss you off to see how you’ll react, and then when you actually do react badly (obviously) they try to beg for your forgiveness in that way. They are trying to see how far they can take their “being themselves” and dicking around with you, but it goes too far basically, and they’ve been coddled into expecting forgiveness all the time.

[Dr PissBender]

I’m pretty sure the majority of these Fi polr guys you’ve been talking about do or could get it actually, at least in some small corner of their minds... they are just actively in denial to themselves and/or pretending not to understand, to you. Like they are trying to piss you off to see how you’ll react, and then when you actually do react badly (obviously) they try to beg for your forgiveness in that way. They are trying to see how far they can take their “being themselves” and dicking around with you, but it goes too far basically, and they’ve been coddled into expecting forgiveness all the time.

Ah, right, the Fi polr poking. I once beat up an ILE dude because of that.

[sbbds]

Ah, right, the Fi polr poking. I once beat up an ILE dude because of that.

You hurt someone who was so in love with you lol. Usually I think we do it to people we like.

[Dr PissBender]

You hurt someone who was so in love with you lol. Usually I think we do it to people we like.

No. He was being rapey with an ex of mine, so I beat him up and kicked him while he was on the ground. He has a history of being pervy and creepy-stalkerish with women.

[sbbds]

No. He was being rapey with an ex of mine, so I beat him up and kicked him while he was on the ground. He has a history of being pervy and creepy-stalkerish with women.

Oh.. yeah I have known a small handful of weirdo ILEs like that. Fi polr plus not understanding social boundaries with women especially, or thinking it’s a joke. Good job I guess.

[Dr PissBender]

Oh.. yeah I have known a small handful of weirdo ILEs like that. Fi polr plus not understanding social boundaries with women especially, or thinking it’s a joke. Good job I guess.

Yeah. Can't SLE's be like that I wonder? Or does being Se lead manifest itself differently regarding Fi polr?

[sbbds]

Yeah. Can't SLE's be like that I wonder? Or does being Se lead manifest itself differently regarding Fi polr?

I think being Se lead helps with understanding physical boundaries more and why/how they work for SLE guys, even if they aren’t women. They are less likely to exhibit bizarre or unusual behaviors even if Se is stereotypically “rapey”. I think Se guys wait for more socially opportune ways to act aggressive if they do.

[grumpyvic81]

Cool, I relate. A need for an intense, powerful, basically spiritual type connection experience. I can see how it relates to how you mentioned that you find Ni more fulfilling.

This is interesting, for myself I think I relate too, but I'm like, this without Fe is worth nothing to me anymore (was always true but I just didn't realise), but also Fe is worth nothing to me without this Ni stuff. The latter was always true too and I was always aware of it, I'm just reminding myself of the former more now. In line with that, I'm finding that I've been in romantic relationships with Ni egos more than with Fe egos so the Ni holds the appeal more obviously or faster than Fe or something. I'll latch onto someone real fast if I see their Ni as being good/interesting/tickling/fascinating me enough. So that's how long term relationship happened with Ni ego, but only shorter stuff with Fe ego. Really I don't care if it's just Fe, Fe me all you want, I don't care without Ni, lol, we can hang out and have fun but no quality Ni, no actual closeness, no taking you seriously. Besides just the Ni stimulation, it's also very important ofc whether we share the same vision, that decides everything obviously. But without a quality enough emotional connection that doesn't get to be lived enough. Where your and the other person's character plays a major role in the dynamics too.

So for me it's kinda hard to say what I find more fulfilling, Fe or Ni, both are needed for a truly quality relationship for me, period.

[kingslayer]

Yeah. Can't SLE's be like that I wonder? Or does being Se lead manifest itself differently regarding Fi polr?

I find myself reading boundaries and body language very well... I constantly analyze the body language tone and expressions of the person im interacting with to make sure I'm not being too much with my fi polr.. tho when I meet other betas. Also certain gammas and alphas I can just be myself without offending them and its awesome. But we are definitely "too much" together for people who are less brash or loud.. my ile friend likes to crack meaner jokes than me. Its refreshing to me personally I don't get offended but he's worse with his fi polr than me to others

My LSE friend has the meanest humor of anyone I know but he's the only delta I know this way. He also never says it to the person unless he's very comfortable with them . While the ILE and I have no issue roasting strangers and actually used to team up and bully kids together when we were younger lol

[Dr PissBender]

I find myself reading boundaries and body language very well... I constantly analyze the body language tone and expressions of the person im interacting with to make sure I'm not being too much with my fi polr.. tho when I meet other betas. Also certain gammas and alphas I can just be myself without offending them and its awesome. But we are definitely "too much" together for people who are less brash or loud.. my ile friend likes to crack meaner jokes than me. Its refreshing to me personally I don't get offended but he's worse with his fi polr than me to others

My LSE friend has the meanest humor of anyone I know but he's the only delta I know this way. He also never says it to the person unless he's very comfortable with them . While the ILE and I have no issue roasting strangers and actually used to team up and bully kids together when we were younger lol

Bullies disgust me.

[kingslayer]

Bullies disgust me.

We were younger than 12 man. we were just fuckin with ppl we thought were jerks we didn't beat em up or anything lol.

[Dr PissBender]

We were younger than 12 man. we were just fuckin with ppl we thought were jerks we didn't beat em up or anything lol.

Ah, I used to do the same thing, and i'm not Fi polr. The only thing I hate from when i was that age is that some Beta NF girl made up shit about me, saying that I hurt her or whatever and ruined my reputation with a lie, the little whore.

[kingslayer]

Ah, I used to do the same thing, and i'm not Fi polr. The only thing I hate from when i was that age is that some Beta NF girl made up shit about me, saying that I hurt her or whatever and ruined my reputation with a lie, the little whore.

Im sure most EP kids did at some point. Its fi polr with us because we would use personally offensive humor and find it hilarious while the person receiving it gets butthurt. But I don't mind personal humor about me either as long as its just that, humor. Not an actual attack so looking back now I'm like damn we were some bullies as kids lol. But by no means were we trying to cause harm we thought we just being funny and trying to entertain each other.

Those are the worst. I know an eie male who also has to try and destroy someone's reputation too.. its weird to me because I could fucking care less about my reputation personally I just get mad out of principle that this person is that much of a weak slimey weasel. Either way I always tell them "yess please tell the people stupid enough to listen to you that I'm a massive asshole..it works as a filter to keep idiots like you out of my life."

[Dr PissBender]

Im sure most EP kids did at some point. Its fi polr with us because we would use personally offensive humor and find it hilarious while the person receiving it gets butthurt. But I don't mind personal humor about me either as long as its just that, humor. Not an actual attack so looking back now I'm like damn we were some bullies as kids lol. But by no means were we trying to cause harm we thought we just being funny and trying to entertain each other.

Those are the worst. I know an eie male who also has to try and destroy someone's reputation too.. its weird to me because I could fucking care less about my reputation personally I just get mad out of principle that this person is that much of a weak slimey weasel. Either way I always tell them "yess please tell the people stupid enough to listen to you that I'm a massive asshole..it works as a filter to keep idiots like you out of my life."

"EP kids" LMAO! Yeah. I have used lots of personally offensive humor and i'm not Fi polr. I don't know if it's about that, and I still do shit like that, mostly because I know what i'm doing but I can come in too harsh. Might be the Se role. I don't know how people expect IEE men to be. We're often edgy and offensive. I think we're the least Delta of the Deltas. Not all Deltas like me either. Anyway... I'm a living contradiction, i'm Ti polr.

Yeah, you are lucky you don't care about it! I no longer care either, but I used to, for some reason. Like it or not, I have a strong Fe and am aware of the whole emotional atmosphere. But breaking it is so tempting at times.

People are stupid.

You remind me of one of my SLE friends btw. You say very similar things. I used to type him SLI coz we got along but i've started to think he's SLE. He doesn't look aggressive though.

[kingslayer]

"EP kids" LMAO! Yeah. I have used lots of personally offensive humor and i'm not Fi polr. I don't know if it's about that, and I still do shit like that, mostly because I know what i'm doing but I can come in too harsh. Might be the Se role. I don't know how people expect IEE men to be. We're often edgy and offensive. I think we're the least Delta of the Deltas. Not all Deltas like me either. Anyway... I'm a living contradiction, i'm Ti polr.

Yeah, you are lucky you don't care about it! I no longer care either, but I used to, for some reason. Like it or not, I have a strong Fe and am aware of the whole emotional atmosphere. But breaking it is so tempting at times.

People are stupid.

You remind me of one of my SLE friends btw. You say very similar things. I used to type him SLI coz we got along but i've started to think he's SLE. He doesn't look aggressive though.

Ah i see. I'm terrible at typing deltas usually because I don't have a clear image of how each delta type is actually.

I try to go by a Tony Soprano quote "who gives a shit what people say if they don't even have the balls to say it to your face" reputation is silly to me. I let my actions and influence speak for me l. If you can take some blatant scumbags word at face value about me hardly having known me then I got nothing to discuss with someone like that anyway lol.


That's funny about the sle friend because I was torn between sli and sle for a while my own self . I actually still really relate to some sli descriptions but I like attention too much to be fe polr . I have considered ese as well..

But I don't think I'm aggressive either. But people tell me otherwise. Yet only if I'm cranky or something. If I'm confronting someone or working out or playing a sport or video game I can get super aggressive and forceful because I'm competitive but I don't consider it a resting state. I can be pushy even when in good moods but playfully really I show respect and act friendly. I like to laugh and joke with people . It's a big reason I considered ESE. I'm confident that I'm fe valuing and 4d se.. I sometimes doubt SLE cuz the socionics community paints an image of them usually that isn't accurate.

[mightylizard]

Fi POLR is predominantly about being uncomfortable with the static nature of your relationships (e.g., "does this person like me or are they just being nice"). Anyone who is remotely intelligent can learn social norms, and there are plenty of Fi POLR people who are more attuned to social cues than F ego types. The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you. That is why they dual with Fe-creatives who 1) provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read, and 2) are more attune to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't.

Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky."


ETA: Also, ignore the bullshit that Fi POLR = no empathy.

[grumpyvic81]

Fi POLR is predominantly about being uncomfortable with the static nature of your relationships (e.g., "does this person like me or are they just being nice"). Anyone who is remotely intelligent can learn social norms, and there are plenty of Fi POLR people who are more attuned to social cues than F ego types. The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you. That is why they dual with Fe-creatives who 1) provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read, and 2) are more attune to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't.

Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky."

Mind me asking - How does Fe creative do this better than Fe base?

[mightylizard]

Mind me asking - How does Fe creative do this better than Fe base?

Fe bases can do it well but long term they are less adaptive (i.e., creative) with Fe. Fe is the core of the EIE/ESE, whereas it is only a tool the SEI/IEI use. SLE/ILE and EIE/ESE get along very well and are commonly partners/best friends. That said, the ESE/EIE may make too many Fe demands on the ILE/SLE: "just chill out." SEIs and IEIs are better at turning off Fe. When the ILE/SLE make a social faux pas they are less likely to hear about it from the SEI/IEI compared to an ESE/EIE, who may laugh it off in the end, but are more likely to make an issue out of something the SLE/ILE does/says, even if the issue itself is over in ten seconds. Fe creative won't do this unless it is serious. "Subconciously" the SLE/ILE trusts the SEI/IEI and knows that if they are making a big deal out of a social error the SLE/ILE made then it most likely is indeed a serious error and they will then reflect on that.

[grumpyvic81]

Fe bases can do it well but long term they are less adaptive (i.e., creative) with Fe. Fe is the core of the EIE/ESE, whereas it is only a tool the SEI/IEI use. SLE/ILE and EIE/ESE get along very well and are commonly partners/best friends. That said, the ESE/EIE may make too many Fe demands on the ILE/SLE: "just chill out." SEIs and IEIs are better at turning off Fe. When the ILE/SLE make a social faux pas they are less likely to hear about it from the SEI/IEI compared to an ESE/EIE, who may laugh it off in the end, but are more likely to make an issue out of something the SLE/ILE does/says, even if the issue itself is over in ten seconds. Fe creative won't do this unless it is serious. "Subconciously" the SLE/ILE trusts the SEI/IEI and knows that if they are making a big deal out of a social error the SLE/ILE made then it most likely is indeed a serious error and they will then reflect on that.

Thanks, makes some sense. [Please note I type as Fe suggestive not Fe mobilising for the rest of my post.] I've had the experience with Fe egos where they usually are fine but then sometimes make a big deal out of something and then yeah I would listen to that totally. Even if at the same time it all just sounds like drama the way they put it lol, but I think the "dramatic expressing" makes it lighter for me somehow so as not to feel too reprimanded in some too hostile way. But yeah those warnings stick in my mind forever afterwards. And I find only Fe bases (at least I think they are Fe base) are able to do it in that way that I remember it forever.

Anyway I am thinking more on your previous post.

It all sounds a lot like trust issues too and some extra paranoia. Where you said "does this person like me or are they just being nice", yeah that sounds like seriously trust issues which I personally did develop too after a while in life. After seeing enough people who would be like, being nice while having well-hidden self-serving goals or being unreliable in major ways.

More trust issues: "The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you." Yeah, well I've experienced this in an intensified way after the above experiences, it isn't fun. How I solve it is, I often just don't give a shit. I was never 100% certain on it but I never really cared before it got intensified, then I was pissed enough after a while and went back to ignoring that kind of bullshit. I also did get better at perceiving nuances in how much someone actually cares or how much they don't care, like how much of it is social niceties, or in-the-moment enjoyment of "emotional connection", and how much of it is actually deeper based in a more reliable care/like where it is possible to trust more and let down the guard some.

But yeah overall, where you say "are more attuned to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't", that I found to be a very useful skill to try and develop yeah. Tho not like Fi PoLR Iguess because it was always a no-brainer to me to see it in less close relationships/social situations/other situations if someone's just trying to do bullshit flattery or they genuinely are involved in the interaction, with genuine enough expressions. But in closer relationships, that's where I lack ability to see the nuances enough, OK I can see the person likes me but not beyond a point or yes...? That part gets complicated.


So your example where

"Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky.""

It sounds pretty cool, really, like, it just sounds like too easy. lol

Except I never bring it up like the Fi PoLR does. Even with the "trust issues" thing, I'm not as interested as to go as far to actually discuss such concerns with others. It just isn't enough on my mind. Because I don't really put stock into some temporary bad mood having any meaning for the entire relations with the person unless it's some really hostile thing. That tbh is when such advice would be useful to me. But especially when it comes to relationships that I wish to consider close. And that's where I say this would be really useful and make some things a lot easier Lol


I still have one question. You also mentioned Fe creatives "provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read", but considering Fe suggestive descriptions, those also talk about how Fe suggestive really strongly needs the clarity on how others are predisposed to them. Like even more than Fe mobilising. Idk, I deal with it fine when I don't have that clarity. Ofcourse in a closer relationship it gets important to be clear on it & I have been seen as actively requesting clarification on that.

But yeah, the question is, why would you emphasise this specifically for Fe mobilising/Fi PoLR? This thread has other posts too where this is really emphasised and I don't see how it's specific to Fe mobilising. Any idea what differs here for Fe suggestive, specifically?

[mightylizard]

Thanks, makes some sense. [Please note I type as Fe suggestive not Fe mobilising for the rest of my post.] I've had the experience with Fe egos where they usually are fine but then sometimes make a big deal out of something and then yeah I would listen to that totally. Even if at the same time it all just sounds like drama the way they put it lol, but I think the "dramatic expressing" makes it lighter for me somehow so as not to feel too reprimanded in some too hostile way. But yeah those warnings stick in my mind forever afterwards. And I find only Fe bases (at least I think they are Fe base) are able to do it in that way that I remember it forever.

Anyway I am thinking more on your previous post.

It all sounds a lot like trust issues too and some extra paranoia. Where you said "does this person like me or are they just being nice", yeah that sounds like seriously trust issues which I personally did develop too after a while in life. After seeing enough people who would be like, being nice while having well-hidden self-serving goals or being unreliable in major ways.

More trust issues: "The underlying thread is never being 100% certain about how people relate to you." Yeah, well I've experienced this in an intensified way after the above experiences, it isn't fun. How I solve it is, I often just don't give a shit. I was never 100% certain on it but I never really cared before it got intensified, then I was pissed enough after a while and went back to ignoring that kind of bullshit. I also did get better at perceiving nuances in how much someone actually cares or how much they don't care, like how much of it is social niceties, or in-the-moment enjoyment of "emotional connection", and how much of it is actually deeper based in a more reliable care/like where it is possible to trust more and let down the guard some.

But yeah overall, where you say "are more attuned to understanding who really likes the Fi POLR and who doesn't", that I found to be a very useful skill to try and develop yeah. Tho not like Fi PoLR Iguess because it was always a no-brainer to me to see it in less close relationships/social situations/other situations if someone's just trying to do bullshit flattery or they genuinely are involved in the interaction, with genuine enough expressions. But in closer relationships, that's where I lack ability to see the nuances enough, OK I can see the person likes me but not beyond a point or yes...? That part gets complicated.


So your example where

"Fi POLR: "I can never tell if X likes me or not."

Fe Creative: "X likes you just fine s/he's just cranky.""

It sounds pretty cool, really, like, it just sounds like too easy. lol

Except I never bring it up like the Fi PoLR does. Even with the "trust issues" thing, I'm not as interested as to go as far to actually discuss such concerns with others. It just isn't enough on my mind. Because I don't really put stock into some temporary bad mood having any meaning for the entire relations with the person unless it's some really hostile thing. That tbh is when such advice would be useful to me. But especially when it comes to relationships that I wish to consider close. And that's where I say this would be really useful and make some things a lot easier Lol


I still have one question. You also mentioned Fe creatives "provide constant external emotional responses that the Fi POLR can read", but considering Fe suggestive descriptions, those also talk about how Fe suggestive really strongly needs the clarity on how others are predisposed to them. Like even more than Fe mobilising. Idk, I deal with it fine when I don't have that clarity. Ofcourse in a closer relationship it gets important to be clear on it & I have been seen as actively requesting clarification on that.

But yeah, the question is, why would you emphasise this specifically for Fe mobilising/Fi PoLR? This thread has other posts too where this is really emphasised and I don't see how it's specific to Fe mobilising. Any idea what differs here for Fe suggestive, specifically?

Okay, yes, good question! I think Fe suggestive needs more of the external emotional responses from Fe Base. Also, I would assume Fe suggestive wants more "absolute" Fe statements that they convert into Ti "rules" so to speak. At the end of the day I think Ti egos as a whole want external emotional responses. The key difference is that Fe creatives are more contextual with their Fe and can just adapt more to what they perceive the S/ILE needs at any given moment in regards to Fe.

I think it is easiest to flip it, actually:

Ti Base: "Nitpick nitpick nitpick"
Ti Creative: "Nitpick nitpick, does this really matter? No." Of course sometimes the answer is "yes", in which case the Ti creative will continue to nitpick. "Subconsciously" the Fe Creatives TRUST that when the Ti creative continues to nitpick that it is important, because they wouldn't nitpick unless it was.

It is irrational vs rational. Hopefully that helps?

Note: Also, Ti creatives are more likely to "concede" points so to speak to other people, (e.g., "well maybe you're right") than Ti Bases, who are more set on "the truth." This is useful because IEIs and SEIs are notoriously stubborn. You can't "change" their mind, only give them a suggestion or argument and let them decide for themselves (Ti HA; Te POLR).

[grumpyvic81]

Okay, yes, good question! I think Fe suggestive needs more of the external emotional responses from Fe Base.

Ok, yeah, that's what it says in the theory, it's just weird to see it so emphasised on here too in a thread about Fi PoLR/Fe mobilising

So my understanding if I got this right is that Fe suggestive needs to just to see the emotional info of everything. And Fe mobilising doesn't need the emotional info of everything, just needs the Fe clarifications to satisfy the Fi PoLR yeah?

edit: to use less socionics lingo, this means, Fe suggestive due to their high independence needs to see the emotional info of everything (both positive and negative) to be able to even be involved in the relations on the emotional level (beyond just the physical level) and participate in the emotional connection, while Fe mobilising needs specifically positive emotional input (e.g. flattery, admiration, affection, emotional validation) to get their self-esteem increased and get their Fi PoLR worries about being likeable and lovable decreased - correct?

Also, I would assume Fe suggestive wants more "absolute" Fe statements that they convert into Ti "rules" so to speak. At the end of the day I think Ti egos as a whole want external emotional responses. The key difference is that Fe creatives are more contextual with their Fe and can just adapt more to what they perceive the S/ILE needs at any given moment in regards to Fe.

Tbh I like what you said here about Fe creative too. Regardless of what we call it, I don't want someone who's like totally selfish emotionally, lol.

I think it is easiest to flip it, actually:

Ti Base: "Nitpick nitpick nitpick"
Ti Creative: "Nitpick nitpick, does this really matter? No." Of course sometimes the answer is "yes", in which case the Ti creative will continue to nitpick. "Subconsciously" the Fe Creatives TRUST that when the Ti creative continues to nitpick that it is important, because they wouldn't nitpick unless it was.

It is irrational vs rational. Hopefully that helps?

Note: Also, Ti creatives are more likely to "concede" points so to speak to other people, (e.g., "well maybe you're right") than Ti Bases, who are more set on "the truth." This is useful because IEIs and SEIs are notoriously stubborn. You can't "change" their mind, only give them a suggestion or argument and let them decide for themselves (Ti HA; Te POLR).

Yeah I understand what you mean about the theory. For me personally I'm like, I'm almost always open to discussing but I'm very argumentative while I do that. So I don't actually look open* lol, it's all for fun though

*: And def not open like some Ne ego or whatever

I also like the take that there is only Fe when it actually is important (flipping your example again). Because then I can do other things too while there's no "Fe'ing". So again I like parts of Fe creative too

[inaLim]

Stereotype
pushy
obnoxious
invaded your boundaries
lives to bully you


Reality
forgot you existed
made no effort to maintain contact
treats (almost) everyone the same [for good and bad]
disregards relationships and nonsense / insecurities / values in pursuit of the truth
stifled by your up-tightness
moved on
replaced you