IEI girls are annoying
IEI girls are annoying
Thinking about all the unfavorable IR that will be revealed and the relationships subsequently strained/ruined due to social distancing/quarantines that force couples and families to be on top of each other. lol
If your Dual is the type which is best able to help you with your weak points and you theirs, wouldn't it make sense that you should both be working on the same problems?
Since when are ILEs prideless?Originally Posted by COVID 007
We had a full Alpha quadra yesterday. I have two friends who are LII and ILE, but now the LII is dating an ESE so the quadra was complete. The ESE is dominant subtype and talks constantly. I think it would take some time to get things more balanced because now it was mostly the ESE and ILE talking. Lots of silly stuff about what kind of names sound good for people of different professions. Basically Fe+Ne.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Can you describe what the ESE-LII relationship is like?
The LII has his doubts about the relationship because the ESE is extremely impulsive and talks a little too much. She is funny and energetic, it's just that it is too much. She is constantly in control and taking initiative, touching him, wanting him to say something, controlling the environment. The LII is more quite than usually. I can understand that, she also makes me exhausted.
It's hard to say much about the relationship because it's overshadowed by the ESEs extreme (unhealthy?) extraversion. So not a good example of duality. They are certainly duals though and also a Dominant-Normalizing match. I've seen much better LII-ESE couples in the past.
EDIT: I want to add some positive things also. Especially in the beginning the LII was impressed with the ESEs positivity and large circles of friends and acquaintances. The ESE is also very curious so she knows a lot of stuff what's going on in town and gossip about people. I think the LII enjoys to hear about that also. Even though the ESE is maybe a little too fast to take action she also makes things happen. The LII is normally very slow and uninvolved in social stuff although he on some level likes to be social.
Last edited by Tallmo; 03-23-2020 at 02:26 PM.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
No, members of the same club (ST, NT, SF, NF) would likely work on similar problems though. Duality is opposite strengths but similar values.
We seriously need to rewrite the Fe descriptions. Or are there any good Fe descriptions except Jung's? Fe is a lot about judging things from the external perspective, trends etc. The emotion and manipulation is probably more like a by-product of Fe?
The home of an ESE is not very personal. Instead it is tasteful and cosy and like a home "should be".
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
How would your parents feel about you self-typing as a sexual (Sx) type? This is not that we should all start self-typing Sx-last so much as me questioning the system. If Jung's non-sexual libido is behind everything anyways then I think we shouldn't use instinct stackings. Sx/So is the only good stacking and is even called "gods" by one of the more cultish ennegram sites but calling yourself a sexual type is really cringey, whether or not a sexual type is supposed to be about having sex or flirting or just about desire in general.
Yes, this is why I say I'm an Fe type (EIE not ESE) in Jung's actual typology, which should make me not be IEE or whatever in socionics either. Isn't Ne like a social justice warrior in Jung? I think socionics is supposed to be an elaboration of Jung and not an alternative, which means the whole cringey "ILE genius" trend that caused alpha to be stigmatized shouldn't've ever even happened on this forum or others.
Ne in Jung terms is "activator" in its most broadest sense. Social justice might fall in there.
Pure Ne and Ni: destined to be "outcasts" in actual concrete sense as they leave a mark to the world via indirect means while (in socionics terms) their duals gives glimpses of it but even they ultimately fail at it thanks to their irrationality and together they form formless moving mass that functions on their own terms which can be freeing [irrational perspective] or not [rational perspective].
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
That's why I typed sx last for years, lol.
Order of importance. Even if you find it cringy, you would probably know what you value more. I know I am so last because it is something I know I don't care about or devote much thought into. I would think your leading instinctual variant would also be obvious to yourself as well.
Perhaps the point is in not wanting to know.
Perhaps, but I also just think everyone is Sx/So and there's not really a point in the system except freaking people out over lies. You can overlay Sx/So/Sp onto Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs easily but then everyone should also be Sx which would be self-actualization rather than sex or even sexuality/flirting/partnerships. Of course one-on-one relationships are the most important but back to your parents, would you call your relationship with them, your grandparents, your children, relatives, etc. "sexual?" That only applies if you're Freud and you think everything is sexual, but then So and Sp would be secretly sexual too. Perhaps your parents had sex to have you and you had sex to have your children and your friends are also your sexual partner's friends, but in that case I'd just call it partnership and not "sexual." If I had to pick, partnership is definitely more important than group membership or physical needs to me, but then I would expect the same of everyone, even people who are highly tribalistic or insecure regarding basic needs.
I don't understand. Why do you think everyone is sx/so? Don't you have examples of people from your experience that would contradict that statement? From all the people I have interacted with, I have a few examples in mind of people in each of the possible instinctual variant stackings. It seems you are dissatisfied with the definitions or maybe even just the existence of a sexual type. Are you just uncomfortable with the idea of a sexual type? I have also never encountered anyone who was worried about their instinctual variant stacking. It is secondary, a modifier, and if you do not think it is helpful, you can just omit it or reject the notion altogether. Unrelated to this discussion, but I really do hate how prominent sexuality is in modern culture. It is not a topic to be treated so lightly but we have all become desensitized to it.
No, I stated explicitly I'm dissatisfied with instinct stackings existing. For example, 4s want to be unique. 4s are not going to be hoarding food since that's security which is 6. Phobic and counterphobic 6s can be 6w7 and 6w5. People who flaunt sexuality will be 3s or 4s in most cases. Sx/So/Sp has been linked to Maslow's hierarchy by other people so let's just used Maslow's hierarchy and stop trying to rationalize all the different things "sexual," "social," and "self-preservation" supposedly stand for. Sex, clubs, and food are not the only things people care about whatsoever. I say everyone would be Sx/So because that's just self-actualization followed by social needs which is the definition of a healthy person in humanistic psychology. Sex is all the way down on the same tier as food and shelter in Maslow and social is only right below the top. No one makes Sx into just sex and if you do it'd make the top of the pyramid not be something anyone strives after.
There's this ILE my mother is Facebook friends with. Since I study classics, she showed me a post this ILE made asking the general public if they knew the meaning to a certain Greek word in a passage he was reading. I said something to the effect that the ILE was seeking attention, because 1) the ILE was quite good at reading ancient Greek, 2), he had access to a dictionary which contained the word in question, and 3) the meaning could be more or less understood given the context, even without knowing the precise meaning of the participle in question. My family acted as if this was insane. "No, he genuinely doesn't understand that not everyone is on his level! He's just childish and trying to generate discussion!" I maintain that he is childish, but that he understands well what he is doing when he asks Facebook for help, and there's an element of self-aggrandization there. Since even my family rejects me, I turn to 16types for validation: is this not typical ILE behavior?
So you think it's too simplified and not as balanced as people are trying to make it seem. That's a decent criticism. I mentioned sexual types in particular because that seemed to be what you were most dissatisfied about.
Are you better-educated than your family? I think you should try to educate them, using examples from rock songs or other sources if necessary. Then, once they're not afraid of the ancient Greeks and don't think they're a gateway to worshiping Satan, you can discuss socionics and see if they think that's typical ILE behavior. Maybe you should all watch Disney's Hercules together. The possibilities are endless.
But facebook in general is childish and attention seeking stuff, my man. I honestly advise you to stop using it, there is no benefit to it.
I don’t; my mother does.
Well, sexual types seem like the most ill-defined and non-balanced part of the system, since people as a whole can never decide whether it's sex and flirting, one-on-one relationships, general libidinal desire, or something else, and it seems like if anything the instinct stackings are supposed to line up with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, which really would make everyone "healthy" Sx/So, and calling yourself a sexual type when it means anything besides just sex is still super awkward.
So, it's the stereotype of middle-aged people on Facebook. If your mother is more well-educated than her parents it should take some effort but still not be too difficult to get along with your parents decently well.
I wonder if ESE's are a type that is particularly susceptible to depression?
I've known this male ESE for a few years, and when I first met him, he was fairly upbeat and optimistic. A year ago, he got hurt at work (he's a building remodeler - he has an excellent eye for style) and he can't work at the job that he'd created for himself for the past twenty years. He got really depressed and was having trouble finding work and even paying his rent, and then he found a good job two months ago, but now with the Covid-19 flu, he can't work with a crew and is once again flat broke. The guy just looks like he's going down for the third time. He looks completely beaten.
When my LII sister was going through deadbeat guys, she'd be able to pick them up and get them back on their feet financially. I think this guy's GF is a Delta NF, so she's not going to be able to offer him practical help. Emotional support, yes, but a way out, no.
ESEs remind me of IEEs in how they can seem to get completely defeated by the world. Though I think ESEs recover quicker if they find better circumstances.
It's also my experience that ESEs often get depressed easily, anyway.
Tried to introduce a college aged, ESE male model (half a million followers on social media, hardcore fans, rich for his age, "access") to typology; gave him the barest bones type description of ESE; he felt "seen" and wanted to know more; temporarily forgot I was talking to a zoomer with mutant level finger agility and instantaneous access to the internet, and made the mistake of giving him the type code too soon; turned my head for a moment and by the time I looked him back in the face, he responded with "but...but I'm not a house wife." lolWe gotta do better.
I'm a fast talker but even I was temporarily thrown by that one. A few seconds later, he was already balls deep in the widespread online ESFj hatred. I'm thinking to myself, this perfectly sweet kid is WINNING by all of society's superficial metrics of success (which is what, in part, fuels the disdain) and not only had the internet reduced him to ash, but his feelings were actually hurt by what he read. I tried to clean it up, add context, provide in depth explanations, called you all "HaTeRz" but evidently it didn't work because the next time I saw him, he tried to convince me that IEE was a better fit. lol Seriously, we gotta do better.
we need to open ESE conversion camps and convert them all to IEE or some other type
I think they sale pretty good ESE to LSE conversion kits at AliExpress. Downside is that those are designed to for more petite Asian ESE's.
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
When YouTuber Michael Pierce became interested in Socionics after making many MBTI type-description videos, his surprised comment was that Socionics mainly focuses on what is wrong with every type. Or so it seemed to him.Tried to introduce a college aged, ESE male model (half a million followers on social media, hardcore fans, rich for his age, "access") to typology; gave him the barest bones type description of ESE; he felt "seen" and wanted to know more; temporarily forgot I was talking to a zoomer with mutant level finger agility and instantaneous access to the internet, and made the mistake of giving him the type code too soon; turned my head for a moment and by the time I looked him back in the face, he responded with "but...but I'm not a house wife." lol
I'm a fast talker but even I was temporarily thrown by that one. A few seconds later, he was already balls deep in the widespread online ESFj hatred. I'm thinking to myself, this perfectly sweet kid is WINNING by all of society's superficial metrics of success (which is what, in part, fuels the disdain) and not only had the internet reduced him to ash, but his feelings were actually hurt by what he read. I tried to clean it up, add context, provide in depth explanations, called you all "HaTeRz" but evidently it didn't work because the next time I saw him, he tried to convince me that IEE was a better fit. lol Seriously, we gotta do better.
I sloppily first gave him "ESFJ" and so primarily MBTI related results showed up, many of which lazily categorize ESEs as "rabid PTA moms" and the like. In addition to sub reddits and typing forums like personalitycafe.com that are littered with a disproportionate amount of contempt for ESEs. The intuitive bias is real on the internet.
But yeah, I agree and actually like that socionics tends to "keep it real" in the type descriptions. Once I showed the ESE a socionics based profile, he eased up a bit. But even those steer very "busy body heiress-socialite," "interior designer" and "cookie baker." Even though I know for a fact that there are ESE males that still somewhat to strongly identify with such labels, when you factor in narrow minded societal gender roles, internalized homophobia and all that shit, a fair amount of them don't feel comfortable openly embracing those types of stereotypically feminine tropes.
I don’t know that’s the case, but in comparison to MBTI it probably seems that way.
I knew I wasn’t imagining the ESE-hate!
Not sure about personalitycafe (aren’t they mostly MBTI-centered?) but something I like about this site and Socionics’ type descriptions in general compared to MBTI is that there’s less of a sense that if you’re worthwhile, you’re special and unique and creative and intuitive; otherwise, you’re a boring sensor. I knew an LSI who typed as an MBTI INFP.
re. your last paragraph, it’s not just gender roles, but the fact that people/types can have different motivations and different behavior, even given underlying similarities in how they think. I don’t know that I’ve ever met an ESE who didn’t like to bake, for instance, but there’s no reason why it would be impossible for an ESE to dislike baking (if perhaps it would be unlikely). I’ve also met several who have not seemed interested in interior design — maybe Si gives them a good sense of aesthetics, but they aren’t really interested in spending their time thinking about how other people’s rooms would feel more comfortable. And, of course, “busy-bodied heiress-socialite” isn’t a personality. So it’s always a danger that people won’t much relate to their type profiles, but on the other hand, it’s difficult to describe a general outline of a type without making these sorts of generalizations and stereotypes, because otherwise you start to get so abstract that you can’t create a clear image.
My biggest confoundment is how people do not use comparative analysis when self-typing. (It's as if comparison is not valid for typology somehow - weak Ne?)
That is: Are you more like Person1 who is XXX, or like Person2 who is YYY?
(Of course, sometimes there is not consensus on XXX vs YYY for a Person# among Professionals(!!!), but most times there is. consensus != unanimous consensus btw; consensus = strong majority agreement)
I think people do, but maybe don't express it. Comparative analysis is how I originally typed myself. Type descriptions are uninteresting in comparison. Well, some people seem to stuck on descriptions.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
This is such a lazy approach. There are already enough bad stereotypes.
What you are proposing creates a situation, where some people are declared unofficially as benchmarks and no one can be that type if they aren't like them, which has happened before and failed miserably. Not to mention it's breeding ground for a type battle, where people who you don't like are considered not part of your quadra automatically, regardless of their actual type. I mean this still happens regularly, but professionals don't type like that, only amateurs.
This. The peeps I know I type ESEs, if I compare them to one other it seems like they can't be the same type for most of them. Same with other types.
I also find the idea of being an exemplar of a type stressful, I have erratic/illogical behaviors that can really mess things up because of upbringing and life experiences. Kind of feels like I'd have to go way too personal if I was to publicaly label a type to myself. I'd probably face battle-typing attempts also and that's a waste of time ime.
I mostly contrast people over time regarding what comes up most often then compare people to others. It's not very efficient though.
It does happen once in a blue moon I see a person and it's like someone I know just started wearing a new face.
I'm in the process of typing all the people in my life, even the one's I haven't seen for years.
There was this guy in my calculus class in high school. He was popular with the theater crowd and always had a smile and nice things to say about everyone. To me, this meant that he was lying. No one likes everyone, so he was faking. I found him to be 100% fake through and through. I stopped being nice to him and called him out a few times, but he was always unfailingly, smarmily fake nice to me in return. I could not stand the guy.
In our junior year in high school, his parents paid for a nose job to make him look less Jewish and better able to "make it" in the world. In my opinion, this summed him up. I felt sorry for him having to wear that bandage on his nose for weeks in class, but it was his choice. It wasn't done very well, either. His face looks strange somehow, as if he was burned and parts of his face slid slightly. It makes him impossible to VI.
He went on to become a lawyer in our little town, and a pretty good one. He argued cases before the State Supreme court. He was in the local newspaper a few times. He was a fucking alien. My SLI father loved the guy and would sing his praises, while never having a single good thing to say about me, ever. So my father liked him, too.
My IEI-Fe cousin loved him. Every time I'd talk to her, she'd describe the guy in glowing terms. She'd tell me that she loved his intelligence. Maybe she didn't want to date him, but he was a great guy and she just thought the world of him and he never had a bad word to say about anyone and how could I possibly not see that, and I replied "Can't you see that that just makes him a fake through and through?"
Now, honestly, the guy never did anything to me, and he actually was unfailingly nice to everyone, including me, and so I have to conclude that what I saw in him scared me to my very core. In retrospect, I would say that my early life was a long, bloody struggle with my narcissist mother for my very existence. She wanted me, the ME me, dead and replaced by her obedient servant, and I would kill to have that not happen. So when I saw this guy go under, completely set aside whomever he might have been in favor of his mother's vision, I was repulsed with every fiber of my being. But for years, until I had words for what my mother tried to do to me, for what she nearly accomplished, I had no idea why I hated what this guy had become. I just knew that I hated him.
This afternoon, I called my IEI-Fe cousin to ask her what our mutual cousin, a thin, e9 woman who stayed in her room all day and drew animals, ended up doing with her life, and the subject of this guy I hate came up.
"Oh, Adam, you shouldn't hate him. He's so nice. He's so smart, too."
"So what's he doing now?", I asked flatly. She keeps tabs on every person she's ever met.
"You know he was seeing (girl A) in high school?"
"Yes, I remember her, vaguely."
"Well, they broke up when he went to college and he was married to another girl for a few years, but then he divorced her and married (girl A).
"Really."
"Oh, yes!. And they bought that house on Overbrook Drive and you know, she had five kids."
"Five kids?"
"But now they are divorced."
"Huh."
"But he lives in the guest house on the property."
"Wait a minute. They are divorced and he lives in a little house on the property, while she lives in the main house with the five kids?"
"Yes."
"That's fucked up."
"No it isn't, Adam. They are still friends. He just decided that he wasn't going to be able to find another woman like her anywhere, and the guest house was there anyway..."
"That's still fucked up. You are telling me that he's like a little kid living in a play house in the back yard while mommy and the seven dwarves are living in the adult house."
"Well, OK, that does sound kind of bad. But he's very smart. I'm sure he had some reason for doing that. It's not what I would do, but he's special."
"Cousin, I owe you one. You just pegged that guy in my mind. I know which psychological type he is."
Let's look at the facts.
He and I took a lot of classes together, including calculus and chemistry and physics and theater in high school. He became a lawyer, I own a business. <= same club. NT.
If you ignore the backstory of my mother and the attempted destruction of the ego, you would still be left with the fact that I took an instinctive dislike to the guy, back in high school when nature was red in tooth and claw. <= opposite quadra.
He was unfailing nice to everyone around him, openly, demonstrably, all the time, without fail. <= mostly mental illness or a weak will, but a lot of Fe there.
He ended up living in a playhouse in the back yard of his "mommy's" house, and his "mommy" loves kids. And he loves her, although he doesn't like the responsibility of being a dad. <= Infantile
My SLI Supervisor father never thought that I accomplished a single thing in my life, but he easily praised this guy. <= Not a Dual to my father, because not Delta, but close. Semi-Dual?
My IEI-Fe cousin can see no wrong in the guy. I dated an IEI-Fe woman who had been married for a time to a guy she said was so smart, and so not grown up.
The guy is ILE.
Even though I get along well now with the ILE's that I know, childhood (gut level) impressions die hard. I still want to drown this guy in a bucket.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-02-2020 at 03:31 AM.
@Adam Strange
Dude, that is some Dexter level obsession lol.
I would have said guessed Fe ego. That sounds nothing like any ILE I know.
I tried typing my family and I gave up half way through. It’s mentally exhausting. I don’t enjoy it.
Yeah, @COOL AND MANLY, I'm not happy with the fact that large parts of my internal character seem to be broken. We all do the best we can. Repairs are underway, but the going is slow. I feel like a blind, one-armed man trying to repair a house after a tornado hit it, while still living in it.
As for typing my family, I think I have everyone now who is still alive, because I can interact with them. Without that IRL interaction, though, it's just guesswork for a lot of them.
And yes, the guy might be an Fe-ego, but that would point to ESE (which is possible - I instinctively recoil at one variety of ESE, but not another), but how does the Infantile playhouse fit in with that? Or the NT club?
Hmmm, come to think of it, it might. I know of an ESE who won't marry his GF and he lives apart from her in a little house. That guy is OK, though.
Furthermore, if the guy is ESE, then he is my SLI father's Supervisor, and you can't criticize your Supervisor, and my IEI cousin's Supervisee, and you don't criticize your Supervisee.
Trying to see if this could fit.
You could possible be correct. Maybe the guy is not ILE.
I for sure don't want to spend any time with him to investigate further, so his type might remain a mystery.
P.S.
I haven't seen Dexter, but I get what you are saying. I don't disagree.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-02-2020 at 04:07 AM.
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