Caregivers: Straitjackets and Padded Rooms

[Aramas]

A lot of writing has been written about how caring caregivers are. They want to provide and do things for others, they want to bake cakes and cookies, and ensure a comfortable environment according to a lot of orthodox material.

But this is one-sided and hides the darkside of the caregiver. For the caregiver, whatever they deem to be safe and secure is the mandatory limit. Caregiving is as much an imposition as it is an offer of help. It's care, their way, whether you want it or not. Imagine being strapped to a bed and force-fed cookies and milk. Not quite as idyllic, although there might be some kinky people who like that sort of thing. The caregiver sincerely believes that they understand the needs of other people, regardless of whether they do or do not.

In my experience, the so-called aggressors are much more acknowledging of the need for freedom in the face of risk than caregiving types are. The world is not made into an asylum with padded rooms, and people are not forced into accepting the cookies and milk if they don't want them.

Caregiving types can be just as angry, hateful, mean, and cruel as any aggressor, if not moreso, when their care is rejected. The most I've seen this idea acknowledged in the available lit says that some can see them as simply, "patronizing," but the truth goes far beyond that. If you will not allow a caregiver to care for you, some will go as far as trying to ruin you so they can care for you. Sounds crazy, huh? But it's accurate. And it also demonstrates how easy it is to confuse quasi-identicals.


One will take care of you so they have someone to shit on, and the other will shit on you so they have someone to care for. Which is which? Which bitch do you want to be?

HEARASAY IN PARADOX LUST

And then you have the gay SLE sub bottoms. And they just ruin everything.

[lemontrees]

I don't think it's a caregiver thing. My mom was much more like this than me, and she's SEE (I'm SEI).

[sbbds]

I don't think it's a caregiver thing. My mom was much more like this than me, and she's SEE (I'm SEI).

His point is just that caregivers can be aggressive and aggressors caregivery too, often more than the definitions suggest. Sometimes the traditional definitions obviously still apply.

[ashlesha]

I wouldn't say that this method of control is a characteristic of caregivers in general so much as that anyone is capable using their strengths for selfish ends, and it makes sense for a person to be confused about why the useful things they have to offer aren't received gratefully. It does sound very familiar.

[sbbds]

I think it’s more accurate than not. Also, I am a sub.

[Exodus]

A lot of writing has been written about how caring caregivers are. They want to provide and do things for others, they want to bake cakes and cookies, and ensure a comfortable environment according to a lot of orthodox material.

But this is one-sided and hides the darkside of the caregiver. For the caregiver, whatever they deem to be safe and secure is the mandatory limit. Caregiving is as much an imposition as it is an offer of help. It's care, their way, whether you want it or not. Imagine being strapped to a bed and force-fed cookies and milk. Not quite as idyllic, although there might be some kinky people who like that sort of thing. The caregiver sincerely believes that they understand the needs of other people, regardless of whether they do or do not.

-

Caregiving types can be just as angry, hateful, mean, and cruel as any aggressor, if not moreso, when their care is rejected. The most I've seen this idea acknowledged in the available lit says that some can see them as simply, "patronizing," but the truth goes far beyond that.

The only Caregiver type this is remotely applicable to is ESE. And they have Demonstrative Se and Ignoring Fi.

For the most part though it seems like you simply just don't understand what valuing Si means, or how someone could use it without Se/Ni. Maybe you should learn to see types on their own terms instead of projecting your depraved worldview onto them.

[Aramas]

The only Caregiver type this is remotely applicable to is ESE. And they have Demonstrative Se and Ignoring Fi.

For the most part though it seems like you simply just don't understand what valuing Si means, or how someone could use it without Se/Ni. Maybe you should learn to see types on their own terms instead of projecting your depraved worldview onto them.

"Depraved"
DEPRAAAAAVEEEDDD



Sorry dude. I just think a lot of what's written about Si types is one-sided and biased. I'm trying to correct that by offering a different perspective based on observation. If you don't agree with that, that's fine. But calling me warped because you just can't see it? Come on.

A lot of the main material was made by Si valuing types like Gulenko and Aushra. Of course they're going to make themselves a bit rosy and ignore the rough edges. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

The cookies and milk thing was just an example by the way, lol. I hope you didn't take that literally.

[VenusRose]

A lot of writing has been written about how caring caregivers are. They want to provide and do things for others, they want to bake cakes and cookies, and ensure a comfortable environment according to a lot of orthodox material.

This is very interesting, I am inclined to possibly even agree with this to a certain extent, because it sounds plausible. However, I feel like some of the stuff implied here is extreme, and most average to healthy 'caregiver' types shouldn't be behaving like that.

It does however imply that they might tie their identity with their ability to care, perhaps. Which could make sense. But also, different types care differently. An SLI, for instance, I think would be likely to leave someone alone and want to be left alone unless the other person brings to their attention that they need care. An LSE might be more 'proactive' about their care, and take that initiative themselves. I could be wrong because I don't have any experience with an LSE...so I am also basing it off of what I have read about online and what makes sense etc.

But this is one-sided and hides the darkside of the caregiver. For the caregiver, whatever they deem to be safe and secure is the mandatory limit. Caregiving is as much an imposition as it is an offer of help. It's care, their way, whether you want it or not. Imagine being strapped to a bed and force-fed cookies and milk. Not quite as idyllic, although there might be some kinky people who like that sort of thing. The caregiver sincerely believes that they understand the needs of other people, regardless of whether they do or do not.

I can see what you are trying to say, but I think you may be neglecting that Si users have either HA or suggestive Ne. Which means the 'scope' of something can be expanded perhaps beyond what "they deem to be safe and secure." It's not necessarily a mandatory limit.

In my experience, the so-called aggressors are much more acknowledging of the need for freedom in the face of risk than caregiving types are. The world is not made into an asylum with padded rooms, and people are not forced into accepting the cookies and milk if they don't want them.

This sounds a little extreme, but perhaps you didn't mean it literally.

Caregiving types can be just as angry, hateful, mean, and cruel as any aggressor, if not moreso, when their care is rejected. The most I've seen this idea acknowledged in the available lit says that some can see them as simply, "patronizing," but the truth goes far beyond that. If you will not allow a caregiver to care for you, some will go as far as trying to ruin you so they can care for you. Sounds crazy, huh? But it's accurate. And it also demonstrates how easy it is to confuse quasi-identicals.

Sounds like a really, really unhealthy caregiver type lol, possible unhealthy 2 influence as well.

But I do see that you are saying that that could be their dark side...which I could see being the case. Cannot say for sure yet though, need more actual experience with caregiver types.

One will take care of you so they have someone to shit on, and the other will shit on you so they have someone to care for. Which is which? Which bitch do you want to be?

HEARASAY IN PARADOX LUST

And then you have the gay SLE sub bottoms. And they just ruin everything.

I am completely confused with this one.

Anyways, I was thinking about this...and yes, perhaps the caregiver types can be a bit more...passionate about their caregiving tendencies. But for me, that fits perfectly with my needs. I think I would be most comfortable with someone who WANTS to and likely delights in caring for me, not someone who is doing it because 'meh' or someone who doesn't even want to. And people tend to delight in things that make them feel good about themselves and influence their self-esteem.

[Dalek Caan]

It's true. My mom guilt trips if you don't want something she offers...and she takes it personally. It's really fucking annoying.

Someone at work told me a story about a mother that didn't want her son to leave her because she loved taking care of him. So she frequently poisoned his food so he'd get sick and she could take care of him...there's a terms for it even - Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome (https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/munchausen.html). Caregivers make me uneasy man.

[sbbds]

It's true. My mom guilt trips if you don't want something she offers...and she takes it personally. It's really fucking annoying.

Someone at work told me a story about a mother that didn't want her son to leave her because she loved taking care of him. So she frequently poisoned his food so he'd get sick and she could take care of him...there's a terms for it even - Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome (https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/munchausen.html). Caregivers make me uneasy man.

From the link:

Usually, the cause of MBPS is a need for attention and sympathy from doctors, nurses, and other professionals. Some experts believe that it isn't just the attention that's gained from the "illness" of the child that drives this behavior, but also the satisfaction in deceiving individuals whom they consider to be more important and powerful than themselves.

Pretty interesting. I’d guess that this is actually more common than the link suggests.

[sbbds]

My LSE mom was batshit insane.

[Muddy]

What annoys me about Si egos is how they want to neuter/shelter/disarm others, smothering others dreams and identities for the sake of peace and stability. They would rather you take things in the ass all the time and settle for a lame depressing life that they try to "make better" with Si, rather then you punching your bullies in their faces and embracing your true desires.

[Exodus]

Sorry dude. I just think a lot of what's written about Si types is one-sided and biased. I'm trying to correct that by offering a different perspective based on observation. If you don't agree with that, that's fine. But calling me warped because you just can't see it? Come on.

A lot of the main material was made by Si valuing types like Gulenko and Aushra. Of course they're going to make themselves a bit rosy and ignore the rough edges. That doesn't mean they don't exist.

The cookies and milk thing was just an example by the way, lol. I hope you didn't take that literally.

Yeah, I don't agree with you (the fact that you have a warped worldview has been apparent long before you made this thread). If you "reject an SLI's care", they are not going to care, at all. They don't try to force "caregiving" onto people like ESEs do.

My view of Si personally is not "rosy" - in fact @Muddy actually has a good point despite it being negative. This is how Si and Ni/Se actually conflict, by Si wanting to ignore negative or stressful experiences and stimuli and Ni wanting to explore or at least understand them, and Se being the impetus to go beyond one's comfort zone.

[Aramas]

What annoys me about Si egos is how they want to neuter/shelter/disarm others, smothering others dreams and identities for the sake of peace and stability. They would rather you take things in the ass all the time and settle for a lame depressing life that they try to "make better" with Si, rather then you punching your bullies in their faces and embracing your true desires.

Congratulations on understanding my life--kinda! Add to the caregiving an element of Te cunning and you have a powerful force for unfulfillment.

[Adam Strange]

My LSE "Caregiver" mother had one way of interacting with others. You either accepted her world view totally and allowed her to make all the decisions, including what you could and could not say and could and could not think, or you A.) Got hit, or B.) Got out.

In all fairness, though, she was a violent narcissist. I'm having a hard time figuring out where the "Caregiver" leaves off and where the "Narcissist" picks up.

I haven't met any other LSE's who are like her, to the best of my knowledge.

My SLI father is also a Caregiver, and he only hit me once and never imposed his will on me at all.

[Chthonic Daydream]

This reminds me of that one time when my mother lost herself and had a fit because I said that the soup was too sweet for my liking. She started saying how hard she's worked for the past 3 hours just to have an ungrateful bastard like me come along in the end. Utensils were thrown in the sink and lots of shouting was involved, but I survived.

[sbbds]

My LSE "Caregiver" mother had one way of interacting with others. You either accepted her world view totally and allowed her to make all the decisions, including what you could and could not say and could and could not think, or you A.) Got hit, or B.) Got out.

In all fairness, though, she was a violent narcissist. I'm having a hard time figuring out where the "Caregiver" leaves off and where the "Narcissist" picks up.

I haven't met any other LSE's who are like her, to the best of my knowledge.

My SLI father is also a Caregiver, and he only hit me once and never imposed his will on me at all.

My mother was like this. She was also violent towards my (ILI) dad, who had a history of past abuse. She controlled his finances and kept him and I financially dependent on her.

A tiny Asian woman waving around a meat cleaver was iconic imagery for my household, now to me comical yet tiresome.

Also with her great Si, she once accidentally trimmed off a piece of my hamster’s hip flesh with a pair of scissors while trying to trim his fur. She was vain and made my dad and I wait for her to put her makeup on when I once had to be rushed to the hospital.

[Aramas]

My LSE "Caregiver" mother had one way of interacting with others. You either accepted her world view totally and allowed her to make all the decisions, including what you could and could not say and could and could not think, or you A.) Got hit, or B.) Got out.

In all fairness, though, she was a violent narcissist. I'm having a hard time figuring out where the "Caregiver" leaves off and where the "Narcissist" picks up.

I haven't met any other LSE's who are like her, to the best of my knowledge.

My SLI father is also a Caregiver, and he only hit me once and never imposed his will on me at all.

My dad's similar but different. He tries to use subtle persuasion before he explodes. He's pretty good at it.

[Aramas]

From the link:


Pretty interesting. I’d guess that this is actually more common than the link suggests.

MBPS seems like "caregiver gone bad syndrome" lol. CGBS

[Nocturne]

What annoys me about Si egos is how they want to neuter/shelter/disarm others, smothering others dreams and identities for the sake of peace and stability. They would rather you take things in the ass all the time and settle for a lame depressing life that they try to "make better" with Si, rather then you punching your bullies in their faces and embracing your true desires.

This is what I see as the real "dark side" of Since valuers. As an Si PoLR, it makes me want to fling them off a cliff Big pet peeve when people don't want to address the elephant in the room or whatever problem due to discomfort.

[Aramas]

This is what I see as the real "dark side" of Since valuers. As an Si PoLR, it makes me want to fling them off a cliff Big pet peeve when people don't want to address the elephant in the room or whatever problem due to discomfort.

Ikr. For me it's like some giant has a thumb over me and I just can't get it off. I used to be a lot stronger years ago and able to fight that stuff but it seems like Si is capable of the ultimate war of attrition, esp. Si creatives.