How is Ti PoLR manifested in ENFps and ESFps?

[ArchonAlarion]

As a Ti dominant, the most apparent difference to myself is EXFp's reluctance/inability to "trade" mental schemas during conversation. When I'm speaking to Ti ego's there is a sort of back and forth: We start with a sort of schematic, or conceptualization of the subject matter. During interaction, both parties will attempt to modify/tweak/break/grow the other's schema (depending on the mood of situation). The parties will alternate between blocking the other's additions/modifications and allowing the other's ideas through. A good ending is where both parties establish a new schema that they now share. A bit of Fe during, lubricates the trading, so that neither party gets too stubborn/serious/defensive (remembering the "real world" is a stake, and that we do all share the same schema of being alive and human).

Ti polr's do not experience these schemas internally (in the form of mental imagery or "clicking into place" sensations), and therefore can not relate to or understand the metaphors which Ti ego's use to convey information and "show" (cast into the mind of the other) their point. It's not that they cannot think logically or do not have mental imagery. It is that they do not comprehend logic via mental imagery (or other psychic/archetypal content) to the crisp and persuasive extent that Ti ego's do. Beta ST's might not describe Ti as mental imagery, instead it would be more somatic, in the form of "complete" sensations, "getting into the groove," and "undeniable" ways of explaining a situation.

[Suz]

As a Ti dominant, the most apparent difference to myself is EXFp's reluctance/inability to "trade" mental schemas during conversation. When I'm speaking to Ti ego's there is a sort of back and forth: We start with a sort of schematic, or conceptualization of the subject matter. During interaction, both parties will attempt to modify/tweak/break/grow the other's schema (depending on the mood of situation). The parties will alternate between blocking the other's additions/modifications and allowing the other's ideas through. A good ending is where both parties establish a new schema that they now share. A bit of Fe during, lubricates the trading, so that neither party gets too stubborn/serious/defensive (remembering the "real world" is a stake, and that we do all share the same schema of being alive and human).

Ti polr's do not experience these schemas internally (in the form of mental imagery or "clicking into place" sensations), and therefore can not relate to or understand the metaphors which Ti ego's use to convey information and "show" (cast into the mind of the other) their point. It's not that they cannot think logically or do not have mental imagery. It is that they do not comprehend logic via mental imagery (or other psychic/archetypal content) to the crisp and persuasive extent that Ti ego's do. Beta ST's might not describe Ti as mental imagery, instead it would be more somatic, in the form of "complete" sensations, "getting into the groove," and "undeniable" ways of explaining a situation.

IEE it is then.. for me.

[ashlesha]

IEE it is then.. for me.

maybe you are IEE but i found it kind of ironic that it was reading a complex Ti-heavy post from an LII that gave you certainty about it.

[ArchonAlarion]

Supervised

jk haha

[Suz]

maybe you are IEE but i found it kind of ironic that it was reading a complex Ti-heavy post from an LII that gave you certainty about it.

lol... so according to you IEEs arent capable of understanding writing by Ti-doms? I do have neurons you know...

the way i interpreted Archon Alarion's post was that Ti-doms enjoy showing off their logic and thought processes, and having these stupid arguments about nothing, pretty much, until they convince each other to accept each others' theories.

I have been around numerous people just like that and I couldn't despise such arguments more (of course they dont see it as arguing, but it just really rubs me the wrong way to be around that, not to mention being expected to participate), which is why my conclusion of me being IEE was confirmed.

[Suz]

Supervised

jk haha

lol yeah maybe...

[ashlesha]

lol... so according to you IEEs arent capable of understanding writing by Ti-doms?

you are taking an observation i made and turning it into a universal rule.

if i thought they were not capable i would have said "you cannot be IEE or you could not have understood that complex-Ti-heavy post from an LII"

what i DID say was "maybe you are IEE but i found it kind of ironic that it was reading a complex Ti-heavy post from an LII that gave you certainty about it."

do you see the difference?

[Suz]

you are taking an observation i made and turning it into a universal rule.

if i thought they were not capable i would have said "you cannot be IEE or you could not have understood that complex-Ti-heavy post from an LII"

what i DID say was "maybe you are IEE but i found it kind of ironic that it was reading a complex Ti-heavy post from an LII that gave you certainty about it."

do you see the difference?

That was the implication though from what you said... no need to start misconstruing things now... you didn't come right out and say it, but reading between the lines does imply so. In no way did i make it a rule, in fact i was laughing about the ridiculousness of the fact that YOU attempted to do so.

[ashlesha]

That was the implication though from what you said... no need to start misconstruing things now... you didn't come right out and say it, but reading between the lines does imply so. In no way did i make it a rule, in fact i was laughing about the ridiculousness of the fact that YOU attempted to do so.

okay. I mean whatever you think I secretly mean and not what I say I mean. how convenient.

just to be clear. ANNOUNCEMENT: WA COULD BE IEE

is that better?

[ArchonAlarion]

I'm sorry

[ashlesha]

I'm sorry

lol its not your fault (if you're serious) wa and i have some history.

sorry for derailing the thread! Ti polr. hmm.

[Suz]

okay. I mean whatever you think I secretly mean and not what I say I mean. how convenient.

just to be clear. ANNOUNCEMENT: WA COULD BE IEE

is that better?

Why then twist things and state that i was making a rule? You see... you are trying to push your agenda... and then turning around and making it like i was inferring incorrectly.

Crafty girl...crafty, but transparent...

[ashlesha]

k

[Absurd]

I think it is time for a briefing.

[Ozz]

I HATE this sort of thing...misinformation... I've found that Ti-HAs are the WORST about doing this. I'm like hey if you dont know, just say you dont know and i'll go look it up or ask someone else, why give me bad info??

Then, when I am asked something and i dont know the answer, such people look down upon me for saying "i dont know", but how else will i find out, i mean i wont learn if i keep going around pretending like i know everything...

In my experience, if you challenge some obviously wrong Ti belief in a Ti-HI person, they feel really hurt or they start grasping at straws trying to explain why they are right, then the explanation doesn't make sense and we start going around in circle.

[Suz]

In my experience, if you challenge some obviously wrong Ti belief in a Ti-HI person, they feel really hurt or they start grasping at straws trying to explain why they are right, then the explanation doesn't make sense and we start going around in circle.

yeah i get that, but it makes me so mad when i find out it was bad info. I feel betrayed because i was counting on the info being true, since they say that they are so sure about it. I feel lied to and i dont see their self-pride as a good excuse for spreading misinformation as if it were true.

[Suz]

lol

[Beautiful sky]

Getting confused when people analyze things; unable to follow other people's internal structure/system of thought. If the person is SEE, they overlook what the Ti analyst is doing to "exert their own will" on them.

[rat1]

I think SEEs Ti polr sees how the abstraction of Ti fails to adequately describe the specificity of an experience. IEEs see the analysis as pointless, describing how things are but doing nothing about it.

[Olduvai]

I see PoLR when people say one thing now, then something that logically contradicts it some time later, and then get upset if you say, "but what you said just contradicts what you just said five minutes before".

This is a great example of Ti-PoLR.

ENFp is very inconsistent in the acts and reasonings. Listening to explanations, easily seizes the general, frequently only superficial sense. Sometimes at ENFp there is an insuperable interest to the analysis of insignificant particulars (and these particulars seem to him supersignificant and necessary for deep and momentary understanding of an essence).

Intuitively comprehending sense of many logic concepts and categories, ENFp often has about them superficial enough representation. Therefore sometimes puts himself in awkward position, stating obviously absurd things most self-assured tone.

Often tests difficulty in an explanation of any elementary concepts. But even more is at a loss to explain the complex phenomenon simple means.

sometimes ENFp begins the explanation too in detail and in details, but subsequently he loses in it interest

ENFp painfully perceive any accusation of illogicality and inconsistency. Take offence, when criticize their mental faculties. Often express in the form of sayings. Some of representatives of this type like to write down the sayings in a writing-book, to quote to their associates and to publish in the newspaper.

Most of this is pretty accurate. The two bolded sentences are ones I highly identify with. I absolutely hate being called stupid or any variant thereof, and oftentimes instead of attempting to express a viewpoint in my own words, I'll quote someone else ("Spinoza said this", "according to Wittgenstein, this", etc).

I think a better definition to use (and let's be realistic: We're simply deciding to use definitions for things; there is nothing intrinsic...it's a matter of choice) for Te is that it's the dynamic and extraverted aspect of thinking.

That is, Ti and Te are basically the same thing, but Ti is static (about a fixed timeless reality) and more concerned with the extent of systems and how everything relates, whereas Te is dynamic (about a progression, such a series of steps, ways to accomplish something, for example) and tends to relate more immediately to the specific external objects under discussion.

This is excellent.

All this talk about being anything about "the rules" is sickening (although I guess LSI's would prefer it to "laws").

Fully differentiated Filatova -PoLR Quotes: (May decide to revamp the other PoLR threads in the future)

IEE

Weak in administrative functions such as organization of work schedules, writing instructions, reports and the like.

Have trouble restraining themselves to certain boundaries.

Does not accept anything predetermined.

Difficulty in logical analysis.

Cannot sit and meticulously do what is necessary, instead preferring to bounce a multitude of ideas off those around them.

Inability to analyze things deeply

Pay attention to the many minute details while failing to grasp the big picture

YES! If you seek an adequate understanding of Ti-PoLR, look no further.

[Park]

I see PoLR when people say one thing now, then something that logically contradicts it some time later, and then get upset if you say, "but what you said just contradicts what you just said five minutes before".

This is a great example of Ti-PoLR.

That's a great example of something that gets on my nerves quite frequently. I'm easily pissed off by people who don't take themselves seriously and make me point out the inconsistencies in what they've said to me on a regular basis. I see them as unreliable. They, on the other hand, are usually surprised I remember and take what they say to me seriously.

[FDG]

Ti polr is a property of EP types in serious quadras.

In democratic quadras (well, Gamma): you don't obtain power by rising through a hierarchy or making people submit to you by force (as a Se-Ti would do), but by public acclaim of people liking you and thinking you are the king of the world. Of course, this may require you to contradict yourself and your party's/group ideals because you're trying to please everyone...

In aristocratic quadras (well, Delta): you don't realize your ideas by elaborating an organization where each person has a specific role and expectations, but rather you talk a group of "elected" friends / like minded people into helping you. Of course, this may require you to completely bypass the existing bureucratic structure of an organization...

[Kim]

In aristocratic quadras (well, Delta): you don't realize your ideas by elaborating an organization where each person has a specific role and expectations, but rather you talk a group of "elected" friends / like minded people into helping you. Of course, this may require you to completely bypass the existing bureucratic structure of an organization...

Not necessarily. You might also try to figure out what is useful about the bureaucratic structure and what is not and tailor that to your ideas. That might impair the integrity of the structure, but who cares if they system works as a coherent unit when you need parts to work in your favor.

[Ainfigur]

I'm guilty of a lot of this hmm.

[FDG]

Not necessarily. You might also try to figure out what is useful about the bureaucratic structure and what is not and tailor that to your ideas. That might impair the integrity of the structure, but who cares if they system works as a coherent unit when you need parts to work in your favor.

Sure, but you can't really have your cake and eat it too, that kind of attitude is often bound to riffle some feathers (not always, of course).

[suedehead]

I get this bad taste in my mouth whenever I see someone get really touchy about the consistency of an abstract system, like Socionics.

I notice and often feel an urge to point out contradictions, and it doesn't bother me as much when most other types do it, but I get this automatic, toxic feeling when I see an LII doing it. Even if they have a point, which they usually do. It's kind of embarrassing how that happens.

[trifling nincompoop]

its manifested by their stupidity if someone hasnt already answered

[chriscorey]

I see idiots Dx people they've never even met with psychological disorders on the internet whilst having a very shaky understanding of the disorder in the first place. I wonder what PoLR that is. Deserve to be trolled.

[golden]

This thread began well years ago and devolved.

From my pov, ESXps can look stubborn and defend their take on something with surprising bristly force (more often Delta), or they can seem stuck, able maybe to acknowledge logic but not to act on that awareness (more often Gamma).

It looks like an inability to shift frames of reference. Instead of a shift or reframing, it looks like Ti polr carves out a path and/or accumulates knowledge bit by bit, and the change in mindset occurs almost imperceptibly (to me), and that way there is never any need for the ESXp to lose face.

[trifling nincompoop]

what polr are you thinking it is

[Amber]

getting a bit aggravated and trying to guilt-trip you that you abandoned the field for a number of days that is actually only x+3 (x being the meal they cooked themselves). ok this is Ti polr&Ni inferior, mea culpa. coming up with quasi-poems ("I thought I lost you" ) that only hide ownership issues.

[Myst]

rantedy rant rant wheeeeeeee

Absolutely yes. I don't even really care for "the rule" to begin with, because no single rule I've come across has ever really encompassed everything it tries to do, no matter how hard people try to bend it. What really pisses me off is when people try to assert how their own self-made "rules" actually work in the real world, then when I point out the discrepancies between how the world works and what their rule stipulates they weasel their way out of it. People can become so painfully attached to the rules that they create about the world, and it's like they can't bear to give them up and instead have to force data into it, straining their spider web so hard until it rips apart although the person never knows that it's broken.

What else annoys me about Ti valuers is that they like to build their own world in their head from the ground up, affixing their own basic starting points and situations to create an argument. This works fine so long as the system stays inside the individual's head, but when you try to apply it to the real world, there's always some way in which it doesn't quite fit. The issue then becomes that they don't even see how it doesn't fit: they just go along with the bias they have for their own head.

That's essentially how it works for me to be Ti PoLR: rejection of "the rules," whatever they may be. That's not to say rejection of law in general, but rejection of the existence of externally static laws under which the world is subjugated. I've always been under the impression that the outer world is really just a giant playground of chaos where each infinitesimally small little part does what it does, and these small parts compound into larger parts and everything just grows out of an extrinsically unstructured environment. An ENFp friend of mine one said "truth is temporary," which I think is a good summary of everything here.

Best ever desc of Ti PoLR, thx

Where I really had a laugh was where you used the verb "weasel" for Ti explanations of how the discrepancies you seem to detect aren't actually discrepancies from their viewpoint using their own framework. Also when you think the Ti types don't see how a system doesn't fit the real world, you may be simply unaware that they actually do see the facts you see but they interpret them differently from you. I think that that framework is what you are really missing as PoLR Ti. You kinda just see some rules that seem standalone to you in the way how for you they don't really add up into a proper system that's logically "felt out" by the Ti types. That "spider web" isn't necessarily strained in the way you imagine it is, sounds like this is your own personal experience of Ti instead

Oh also interesting how you see the world in that chaotic way of everything magically "just growing out" of whatever environment and into whatever vague compounds. Very different from how I see the world (I basically just see the world via my senses but if I introvert a bit then I also have a very logical feel of it in addition to that.)

[Myst]

I think you are right, I tend to ignore all that stuff. I can understand some of that stuff from a Ti viewpoint, but it's just somehow something I can't truly feel myself "inside", distant.

also, when such Fi things are being implied, I can sometimes get half-consciously aware if it's something which I should take into account, but I'm unsure to act on it even if it gets conscious to me that something's probably up. somehow it's too indefinite and easily drops out of consciousness or something.

some nice EII's have managed to make some of these things more understood for me on some level, yet I'm unsure to use that knowledge in a Fi way. even if I actually try, I can "feel" some obstacle internally that prevents me from really doing so and I'll just fall back on Ti then.

guess this is how a PoLR looks like then..interesting to imagine Ti-PoLR this way

Fi PoLR, eh, for me it's like, I have a few options for Fi information 1) my default, it goes in one ear and out the other, never registers, ignored 2) I process it with Ti easily no problem, no issue (this is for things that can be processed satisfactorily via either Ti or Fi), that's indeed unfeeling distant 3) it registers for some random "reason" and it's not interpretable by Ti or it would be interpretable only in a roundabout way and then it's actually kinda conscious Fi but it often doesn't add up to anything sensible and it drops out quickly in either case and I optionally return to Ti to solve the situation if needed.

But yes, internal obstacle, if I tried to direct Fi (=gain some control over the IE and use it properly), that would run into a block/obstacle. Like I am all "it makes nooooooooo seeeeeeeense". Probably by then Ti has already taken over.

As a Ti dominant, the most apparent difference to myself is EXFp's reluctance/inability to "trade" mental schemas during conversation. When I'm speaking to Ti ego's there is a sort of back and forth: We start with a sort of schematic, or conceptualization of the subject matter. During interaction, both parties will attempt to modify/tweak/break/grow the other's schema (depending on the mood of situation). The parties will alternate between blocking the other's additions/modifications and allowing the other's ideas through. A good ending is where both parties establish a new schema that they now share. A bit of Fe during, lubricates the trading, so that neither party gets too stubborn/serious/defensive (remembering the "real world" is a stake, and that we do all share the same schema of being alive and human).

Ti polr's do not experience these schemas internally (in the form of mental imagery or "clicking into place" sensations), and therefore can not relate to or understand the metaphors which Ti ego's use to convey information and "show" (cast into the mind of the other) their point. It's not that they cannot think logically or do not have mental imagery. It is that they do not comprehend logic via mental imagery (or other psychic/archetypal content) to the crisp and persuasive extent that Ti ego's do. Beta ST's might not describe Ti as mental imagery, instead it would be more somatic, in the form of "complete" sensations, "getting into the groove," and "undeniable" ways of explaining a situation.

I actually have both mental imagery and the somatic version. The latter feels more instinctual, more my default mode. The mental imagery can be cool tho' at times just it feels like a very introverted detached mode

& had to smile at how well you described the Ti schema trading

[Suz]

I've driven some people crazy with this very behavior... I guess they were Ti-seekers or Ti-doms.. I actually got yelled at by one supervisor for doing so. Meanwhile I'm like, why does he NOT want to know all this???

Looking back through this thread, now that i no longer self-type Ti-POLR.

Yeah i still resonate with what i said previously, however, as Codie mentioned about himself, I do have an appreciation for logical structure (although often, i've depended on others to provide it for me, or redirect me). I've also learned over time to structure my thoughts, from my many role model influences over the years. For me, its much easier to do so in writing than verbally, because i can move things around. What i've also learned over time is to cut out stuff that is irrelevant, to make a stronger case for whatever point it is i'm trying to make. Also easier to do in writing than by the spoken word.

Another thing i've noticed is that the people who get upset at my level of detail have a much less analytical thought process and work style compared to those who welcome it. It's almost like they dont want those details because it'll make them need to think harder. For whatever that's worth.

Apart from that, some people might get annoyed at seemingly "irrelevant" info coming from me, but it's often simply that they can't see the connection/importance, whereas I might. Then when i explain why i think it's important, they're like "ohh... ok yeah blah blah blah". OR they'll still be like insisting it doesn't matter (so they dont look the fool).

I've worked with sooo many characters...

[Suz]

How does everyone feel about this hypothesis? I've been meeting some SLIs that are just lazy losers lately, so i'm starting to think maybe I really am ESE...

Well actually hmmm i do relate more to "whatever comes to mind maybe missing some details". Who knows... i'm not discounting the fact that maybe the guys i thought were my duals might actually have been LIIs. But I guess as long as i know what i'm looking for, i dont really need a socionic type to define that for me. I guess that's what socionics is all about anyway, attempting to describe the choices we would make naturally regardless of definition.

I guess i actually started doubting my IEE self-typing more than 2 years before my type change. This is a nice documentation of that

[chemical]

My take is I can actually see Galen's point of view (BTW, I was one instigator in suggesting his post was interesting to read on this issue), in that I do think Ti types can have this kind of weakness, but it is less apparent in those who are pretty good combining their ego block elements effectively.

I think my way of thinking proceeds by a kind of speculative conceptual expansion to find out what is the concept being raised to describe reality, rather than finding out how it describes reality always in a direct way (the latter part is where a speculative approach ensures I hopefully never miss how it might or might not).
Eventually, the version of the theory that best hits reality kind of just falls out.

Now, some may ask why the heck do this when you can just describe reality directly? I find that those who don't take a step back to really witness how far the process of law-based or principle-building conceptualization can go from direct apprehension of reality may be very aware of reality, they may describe real things, but when they do create frameworks, they become so inconsistent in how they apply them that it might as well be chance.
BTW, this is exactly what I think of how people assign types in the world of functions/MBTI/etc.

Now, those who still trust the free-er flowing technique might say, we're not attached enough to the rules, and we treat people as people, etc, etc when we describe them. I find that is true of some, but at the end of the day, a good detached-from-reality conceptualization together with caution in how it is applied to make statements about the real world tends to achieve the sort of same, but really opposite-but-good effect.

In other words, I find the non-Ti types sometimes overstep from direct dealing in the factual/practical logic realm to the structural logic realm where they can't, and make arbitrary applications of rules they aren't aware how they created, much as Ti types sometimes apply their frameworks to reality in an arbitrary way.

[ClownsandEntropy]

Another thing i've noticed is that the people who get upset at my level of detail have a much less analytical thought process and work style compared to those who welcome it. It's almost like they dont want those details because it'll make them need to think harder. For whatever that's worth.

Apart from that, some people might get annoyed at seemingly "irrelevant" info coming from me, but it's often simply that they can't see the connection/importance, whereas I might. Then when i explain why i think it's important, they're like "ohh... ok yeah blah blah blah". OR they'll still be like insisting it doesn't matter (so they dont look the fool). .

Interestingly, I often get annoyed at my mum about the lack of structure and long stories. It's partially because I myself am aware that I ramble on and it's annoying when I see other people doing it too. At the same time, I tend to prefer fast conversations with certain key words which everyone already understands, so that the explanation doesn't need to be long-winded, and I especially enjoy when someone can explain something succintly. I always attributed this to being a holographic thinker, but ENFp's are also holographic thinkers so they would also try to cut down detail, right?

[Myst]

Looking back through this thread, now that i no longer self-type Ti-POLR.

Yeah i still resonate with what i said previously, however, as Codie mentioned about himself, I do have an appreciation for logical structure (although often, i've depended on others to provide it for me, or redirect me). I've also learned over time to structure my thoughts, from my many role model influences over the years. For me, its much easier to do so in writing than verbally, because i can move things around. What i've also learned over time is to cut out stuff that is irrelevant, to make a stronger case for whatever point it is i'm trying to make. Also easier to do in writing than by the spoken word.

Another thing i've noticed is that the people who get upset at my level of detail have a much less analytical thought process and work style compared to those who welcome it. It's almost like they dont want those details because it'll make them need to think harder. For whatever that's worth.

Apart from that, some people might get annoyed at seemingly "irrelevant" info coming from me, but it's often simply that they can't see the connection/importance, whereas I might. Then when i explain why i think it's important, they're like "ohh... ok yeah blah blah blah". OR they'll still be like insisting it doesn't matter (so they dont look the fool).

I've worked with sooo many characters...

Lol Suz I think I saw some 2D Ti norms from you on chat (Ti HA-ish). And your last sentence here, it sounds like defensive* lower dimensionality Ti assuming that other people's Ti works in the same way - no, actually not, it may be they actually honestly have a different opinion that they can logically reason for. Has nothing to do with trying to not look the fool. Whose reasoning is correct is of course the question in these situations. At least that's what I prefer to focus on as Ti ego. And btw I've read this sort of defensiveness can be Ti HA easily So it doesn't even have to be PoLR Ti or anything like that

*: Not to be taken personally, just didn't find a better word for this

Interestingly, I often get annoyed at my mum about the lack of structure and long stories. It's partially because I myself am aware that I ramble on and it's annoying when I see other people doing it too. At the same time, I tend to prefer fast conversations with certain key words which everyone already understands, so that the explanation doesn't need to be long-winded, and I especially enjoy when someone can explain something succintly. I always attributed this to being a holographic thinker, but ENFp's are also holographic thinkers so they would also try to cut down detail, right?

What type is your mum? And no I've seen IEE's ramble on in this totally random way... H-P can be descriptive and then it can include detail, anyway. Just I suppose IEE does it differently from a Ti ego H-P

[Suz]

In the Dutch business there are two concepts that describe an attitude towards carrying out commitments: "inspanningsverplichting" and "resultaatsverplichting". Literally translated "obligation to effort" and "obligation to result", but in English "commitment to effort" and "commitment to result" are probably better.

With a commitment to effort you promise to work to to best to your ability, but you guarantee no results. With commitment to result, you guarantee the result, not so much the amount of effort you put into it. These may seem simple concepts, but they have lots of implications psychologically and socially. The commitment to effort works best in situations where a specific result cannot easily be expected, it also works best in situations that require a bureaucratic approach, e.g. to secure equal treatment of people. A commitment to result works best in those cases where a specific result can be defined, while at the same time allowing variation as to how that result is accomplished, e.g. it doesn't require a set procedure because all kinds of other effects should be accomplished or avoided.

Now here is the deal: SEEs and IEEs are totally unaware of what it means to work under conditions of commitment to effort, and will often screw up in situations that demand such an attitude. Sometimes because they ignore and thus violate constraints set by circumstances or procedures, sometimes because a definition of a clear result is missing, and they will make assumptions about what the result should be, and improvise their way towards the imagined result. This is also why their dealings with LIIs and LSIs go wrong: SEEs and IEEs do not understand that in the world of Introverted Thinkers, the procedure is the result (i.e. logic dictates that a procedure always has a specific result).

This is very very interesting.

I had a boss recently in a scientific lab (whom i left because of a huge personality clash), who would tell me (at the beginning of a project, at the time the idea was formulated) to sit down and write a draft of the paper I would write on that project. I'm like how the hell would i do that? I dont know what the results are gonna be!!!

Apparently he does this, and he finds it helpful. He said it helps him have something to aim for. I get that, but when i tried to sit down and write something like that, it felt like all kinds of wrong -- constraining, a total waste of time and effort, and felt like i was conjuring up results... I really could NOT do it, and i didn't.

He must have been result-oriented, idk. My work style is more of a commitment to effort kind of style myself, I think, at least in that setting it was.

[Suz]

It is, isn't it? I thought it was quite brilliant myself!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the example you provided basically seems to be about giving shape to a testable hypothesis. The hypothesis can be regarded as the intended result, the draft of the paper describes how to get there. Ultimate you can, of course, prove the hypothesis wrong, but the draft can still be used to write the final paper. To me it actually sounds like a Te approach to a Ti requirement, so in this case, there seems to be no clash between Ti and Te.

What is actually your profession?

I'm in the medical field but was trying to get involved in some research related to a broad area of interest of mine. He was the only person working on something at least remonted related to that topic at my current institution.

And yep i think what you described in this post is what he had in mind. But to me it was such a pointless exercise because research never ends up going the way you initially intended it. To me it felt like i'm gonna be writing fiction, making up stories. Why not just do the experiment(s), and then sit down and write it all up the way it actually happened?

I dont quite understand what you meant by "in this case there seems to be no clash between Ti and Te"? I think his overkill approach demonstrates the clash.

As a side note, I also think that Ni might have been involved in his approach as well... like seeing that sequence of events of what will happen in the future. I have a tentative gamma NT typing for him. He seemed Si-POLRish as well, and had EJ-like expectations out of me. Also the fact that I thought maybe he was dual-ish at the time i decided to work with him, it makes sense that maybe he was conflictor.