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Thread: The Dark Knight

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    In your first post directed at me, you ascribed self-serving (negative) motives to me--and you did so incorrectly... I reacted against that post.
    Self-serving? I was airing my frustrations with Socionics and was not aimed at you per se. The moment that you decided to make something of my comment and lecture me, then I decided to make something of it. Before that, nothing.

    In your second post directed at me, rather than reconsider the content of your original post in light of what I wrote--i.e. how it might've been presumptuous/incorrect--you reacted by belittling me (full sentence 1) and then by posturing to attempt to make yourself come across as holier-than-thou (full sentence 2.) You book-ended it with computer abbreviations, which denote that you're laughing, (belittling.)
    Should you not have reconsidered yourself? Should I have been the only one to reconsider? Might you not be incorrect? Should you perhaps stop making mountains out of mole-hills? Have you not considered that you may be overreacting and taking this personally a little too much? Yes I was belittling you because you took my comment way too personally, work yourself, and you continue to do so now.

    Now you ask, "what does it tell?"

    For all I know, Logos, you're a very nice person who has, for whatever reason, just posted two ugly things on an internet forum--ascribing motives to a person you don't know, belittling a person who was trying to defend himself from incorrect insinuations...
    Two ugly things? Exaggerate much?

    Ppl make mistakes all the time--I do too, sometimes thoughtlessly... Like I said, I do not know anything about you; I do not know your character... It's only been revealed to me through these two posts... It's my hope that these posts aren't representative of your character, (for your own sake, as well as mine interacting with you) however, like I said, I do not know.
    You're making another mistake now by not only misjudging my character but also by acting as if the paper-cut I inflicted upon you is somehow a dagger twisted in your side. If you feel belittled by this comment, fine, but I'm just telling you how I see the situation.

    To answer your question: of course you can post "thoughts that aren't helpful" on this forum, or anywhere--but if you're going to direct them at someone and insinuate that someone-you-don't-know has ill-motives--honestly, what kind of reaction do you expect?
    What kind of reaction do I expect? To be largely ignored. (Look at Gilly's reaction - as you can see, he is in all tears and cursing my name for this great slight of his honor!) I expected no reaction at all, and least of all a lecture from someone who feels as if they are being injustly picked-on by an aside observational comment.

    Obviously, how a person reacts to such incidents reveals character... Ideally, one will take into account the other person's point of view... I understand that you might've just been making a bad joke, or having a rough day--regardless, let's move on, unless you feel like talking about this more could help in any way... Peace, -Justin
    You are taking that one comment of mine WAY TOO personally. You are also revealing quite a bit about your character as well, and for your sake, I hope that you too are having a rough day (or going through male PMS), because you are certainly losing my respect.
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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    You are also revealing quite a bit about your character as well, and for your sake, I hope that you too are having a rough day (or going through male PMS), because you are certainly losing my respect.
    As to your respect, after having dealt with you now, I consider it fine not to have it... That's all I'll say.. No sense going any lower.

    Good luck, peace, -Justin

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    As to your respect, after having dealt with you now, I consider it fine not to have it... That's all I'll say.. No sense going any lower.

    Good luck, peace, -Justin
    Are you Delta? Are you arguing that Heath Ledger is ISTp (Delta)? Is Gilly Beta? Is Gilly arguing that Heath Ledger is Beta NF? Do you both believe in the correctness of your typing? If you answered yes to these questions, then all my original comment was doing was pointing out the irony of the situation. How do you think I felt getting lectured by you? Do you not think that I felt as if I was being personally attacked? I hate being miscorrectly judged, and it feels as if you are doing that to me right now. I am sorry if this little incident was all it took for you to hate my guts, and hopefully in due time you will see the virtue of my character. Shalom.
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I am sorry if this little incident was all it took for you to hate my guts, and hopefully in due time you will see the virtue of my character. Shalom.
    I don't hate your guts, Logos... I understand where you're coming from with your last post; I hope that you understand where I'm coming from, at least to some degree... As far as I'm concerned, we're fine.

    I just don't want to bicker anymore.

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    The character Joker is clearly an ENTp.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    the Guy who tried to blackmail Bruce Wayne (sadly, INTp)
    Initially, I was just going to 'let this go' the day you typed it, but I still don't understand why you typed "sadly" in front of your type suggestion.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Oh, just being diplomatic to my conflicting quadra. I want them to think the Gamma typing is my genuine impression, and not motivated by some desire to discredit them or watch them burn.
    Nearly all your character typings were Gamma. Why specifically put "sadly" in front of the INTp suggestion? Are you ESE?

  8. #128
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    Oh, was it because you recognized that most of your suggestions were Gamma and thought you'd acknowledge that (perhaps) 'unfortunate' reality of your typings?

    EDIT: Like saying "sorry I'm typing everyone as Gamma?"

  9. #129
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    Glam, that is a compelling argument for Joker being an ILE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    The joker is definitely a very complicated character, so idk... he sure embodies lots of aspects from both types. I doubt the writers studied a lot of socionics when they wrote him either.
    i was thinking the same thing. .. and i noticed the LSI quip

    in general i did think the joker was an ISFp, but this could have been influenced by the actor.. whom I think is ISxp. I tend to get influenced by the actors since I tend to weigh vibes when typing someone. Also i didnt think deeply into whether or not motivations for actions were lies or not.. i didnt think that would be the intent of the writers when they created him. So i thought he was ISFp because I do see Fps as the most go with the flow types of life philosophies, and the emphasis on experimenting and sort of lack of deep conceptualism.. everything was sort of.. chaotic. Sensory and perceiving.

    but then they had him doing all this planning shit.. i think that there were definitely mismatched elements in his personality. He had the elements that were convenient for the story. For two and a half hours or however long it was.

    Jxerteseses, im impressed

    and bee, i love loved it as well.

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    after reading glam's post, i think that that was a rather good case for supervision in that scene. And for Joker's type as ILE if Batman is LSI and we type Joker by their interaction in that scene.

    But i think the movie was about these two life philosophies more than anything else and that the characters were instruments of that. I thought it odd that joker suddenly has that control actually because I didn't see it prior. *So if we try to forgive the writers of their socionic ignorance (ignorance of realistic human behavior perhaps?) we can combine the recklessness of the physical behavior with the planning and look at an extroverted feeler.

    I think the joker is most consistent with ISFp. An ENTp could not be as spontaneous in action. I already said that I don't think the writers inteded for us to think that Joker is lying about his motivations, and I think he would have to be for us to consider that his plans were premeditated (if they were I could see ENTp).

    *They actually did this a bit earlier in a wtf moment for me when joker convinced Harvey Dent to be *ahem* evil. really appeared to be stuffing in some unrealistic moments there for the sake of continuity of concept -- either to be faithful to the original Batman story and/or what the joker is supposed to represent -- chaos/lack of meaning.
    Last edited by Ms. Kensington; 08-13-2008 at 08:29 AM.

  12. #132
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    I personally couldn't stand this movie. I'm very sensitive to cruelty and I had a stomach ache almost the whole movie and went home in a depressed, terrible mood and wished I had never seen this movie.
    (BTW, I'm pretty sure I'm Delta of some sort.) Would this reaction make sense for a Delta?

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    Quote Originally Posted by macysmama
    I personally couldn't stand this movie. I'm very sensitive to cruelty and I had a stomach ache almost the whole movie and went home in a depressed, terrible mood and wished I had never seen this movie.
    (BTW, I'm pretty sure I'm Delta of some sort.) Would this reaction make sense for a Delta?
    What was so bad about it? The violence was not excessive imo, and the special effects were great. Aside from that, it was probably one of the most thought-provoking movies I have ever seen (along with the matrix(s) and no country for old men).
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    What was so bad about it? The violence was not excessive imo, and the special effects were great. Aside from that, it was probably one of the most thought-provoking movies I have ever seen (along with the matrix(s) and no country for old men).
    I'm not sure I can explain over the internet. If you met me, I think you would understand immediately how this movie wouldn't be right for me. I can't watch mafia movies either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hostagechild
    I dunno, but I found portions of the movie rather disturbing myself. Not only some of the violence, even if it wasn't graphic, as well as the psychological themes hit a chord in me that made me a bit antsy. And who can forget Two-Face. That freaked me out.
    Oh yeah, the scenes where joker explains how he got his cuts. That was psychologically disturbing, objectively speaking, but I didn't find it disturbing. I think it only enhanced his character and added to the theme of unspeakable horror and chaos - shit that simply can't be controlled, and in its most raw form, is pure evil.
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  16. #136
    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola aka Bee's Avatar
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    OMG I loved all the phsychological stuff!


    (It gave me thrills ^_^)
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    The movie blatantly endorses Bush.

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    Batman = GWB

    Joker = Terrorism/bin Laden

    Think about it. It fits perfectly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Batman = GWB

    Joker = Terrorism/bin Laden

    Think about it. It fits perfectly.
    2008 Presidential Election version:

    Batman: Barack Obama

    Harvey Dent: John McCain

    Joker: terrorism incarnate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    2008 Presidential Election version:

    Batman: Barack Obama

    Harvey Dent: John McCain

    Joker: terrorism incarnate
    That doesn't make any sense.

  21. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Batman = GWB

    Joker = Terrorism/bin Laden

    Think about it. It fits perfectly.
    WOW HOW DID YOU THINK OF THAT?!
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    WOW HOW DID YOU THINK OF THAT?!
    I know. I was embarrassed that it wasn't obvious when I first saw it.

  23. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    My thoughts for types:

    Batman: ILI 5w6 sx/sp
    Joker: Obviously Beta NF IMO; he seems like a 4w5 so/sx so IEI>EIE
    Harvey Dent: LIE, or perhaps IEE, 6w7 so/sx (Nick gets a point for me being 6 because I actually identified somewhat with this guy )
    Alfred: ESI (this is the most obvious typing of them all IMO); seems like a 2w1 sx/sp
    Rachel Dawes: SEE; seems like a 7w6 sx/so
    Lucius Fox: LSI; seems 1w2 sp/sx
    Gordon: LSE or SLI; 8w9 or 9w8 sp/sx
    I finally watched it, last Saturday, in London, and I agree with most of Gilly's views, except that I tend to see Batman as ESI, and Harvey Dent as EIE>LIE.

    I thought it was really good. I was impressed at how convincing the transition from Harvey Dent to Two-Face was. First, that was an accurate portrayal of Two-Face's psychology, and they build it up well with his playing with the coin from the beginning. Second, they successfully build up Dent's character into someone you can understand and care about - and then make him fall, which increases its impact much more.

    That is how the Anakin Skywaker -> Darth Vader transition should have been handled, instead of having Anakin as a darkly petulant kid who was already "half fallen" to begin with.
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    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Expat, you are an idiot if you don't see that Joker is an ILE.

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    I thought Dent/Two Face was a more enjoyable character than the Joker, who felt more like a nuisance than anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Expat, you are an idiot if you don't see that Joker is an ILE.
    I agree (that the Joker is ILE).

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    I thought Dent/Two Face was a more enjoyable character than the Joker, who felt more like a nuisance than anything.
    It was the other way around for me....except I don't really care about it. Liked the movie as a whole and don't have any complaints about the characters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostage_Child View Post
    As for the joker, I honestly thought the guy was IEI or at least Beta NF. I can't see him any other way. His whole ability to fuck with people's heads, understand psychology and mass psychology as well as he does and his clear empahsis on savoring emotional expression strikes me as Ni blocked with Fe.


    I can't see how any of this is "typically" IEI behavior, except for the "savoring emotional expression" which is NOT at all what I saw in Ledger's Joker.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostage_Child View Post
    The Fe creatives just love me lately, don't they?

    Sorry, it's not a jolly week. (that's me trying to be nice)

    edit: Yeah, I have Fe PoLR. Definitely.

    edit: Yeah, I've had it this week. Seriously had it.
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    I have been thinking about this...I think ESI or LSI, either one, could work for Batman, for different reasons. Harvey as EIE was my final conclusion, and I find it interesting that you (expat) draw the parallel to Anakin, because both are characters I identify with very much; in fact my sister was the first to bring my more overt similarities with Anakin to my attention.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Default The Dark Knight saga

    Batman: ESI-Ne, 6w5 so/sx (INTJ)
    Bruce Wayne persona: SLE-Se, 7w8 sx/so (ESFP)
    Alfred: SLI-Fi, 2w3 sx/so (ISFJ)
    Rachel: IEE-Fi, 1w2 so/sx (ENFJ)
    Lucius: IEI-Ne, 2w1 sx/sp (INFP)
    Gordon: ESI-Fi, 2w3 so/sx (INFJ)
    Corporate guy: SLE-Te 8w9 sp/so (ENTJ)
    Harvey Dent: SEE-Ti, 1w2 so/sx (ENFJ)
    Jonathan Crane: LII-Ne, 5w4 sp/so (INTP)
    Two-face: SLE-Ti, 6w5 sx/sp (ESTP)
    The Joker: EIE-Ne, 7w8 sp/sx (ENTJ)
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  32. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Batman: ESI-Ne, 6w5 so/sx (INTJ)
    Bruce Wayne persona: SLE-Se, 7w8 sx/so (ESFP)
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    It kind of seems right but IDK I haven't seen it in a while.

  34. #154
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    I will be following this thread with interest, as my husband has actually been wanting to know Batman's type (and Bruce Wayne's, which seems to be quite different). I just don't know enough about the characters to figure it out myself.

    Aleksei-- Maybe I'm the only one who finds it unbelievable that you can be so confident in your typings of people you've never even met, to be able to type them in detail in three different typologies. idk. Maybe if you stuck with just one typology, I might actually be more inclined to give your typings more consideration; but you seem far too eager to "pin the type" on people.

    And how do you figure that most of your people above happen to be Thinking types in one typology, and Feeling types in the other? I can understand the blurred line between Sensing and Intuiting between Socionics and MBTI, but I have a harder time seeling how Thinking and Feeling can be so radically different between the two systems.
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  35. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by pianosinger View Post
    Aleksei-- Maybe I'm the only one who finds it unbelievable that you can be so confident in your typings of people you've never even met, to be able to type them in detail in three different typologies. idk. Maybe if you stuck with just one typology, I might actually be more inclined to give your typings more consideration; but you seem far too eager to "pin the type" on people.
    Typing isn't that difficult, and typing fictional characters is actually easier than typing real people, as the thoughts and feelings of characters are laid out for the audience to see. I type in Enneagram and MBTI as confidently as I do in Socionics (though I don't always), because I'd actually been studying these systems a while before getting into Socionics.

    And how do you figure that most of your people above happen to be Thinking types in one typology, and Feeling types in the other? I can understand the blurred line between Sensing and Intuiting between Socionics and MBTI, but I have a harder time seeling how Thinking and Feeling can be so radically different between the two systems.
    They aren't altogether radically different, but they're different enough that they can still overlap. This is particularly true of types that are Perception-dominant, as the tertiary J function can overlap with the auxiliary -- even to the extent that it itself can appear to dominate over the aux function. INTJs seem particularly susceptible to this, though most Fi-driven INTJs usually mistype as INFJ. In Socionics, these emotionally charged INTJs are usually ESI, or IEI.
    What do these signs mean—, , etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason, (Ne) is not exactly the same as Ne in MBTI.

    Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function (extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).

    For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.

    -Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov

  36. #156

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    Bruce Wayne/Batman: ILI/LSI?
    Ras Al Ghul/Henri Ducard: EIE-Ni
    Alfred:SEI-xx
    Gordon:SLI?
    Talia:EIE-Ni/IEI?
    The Joker:ILE-xx/IEE-Ne
    Catwoman/Selina Kyle: LSI

    Unsure about the others...Rachel, Lucius Fox, Scarecrow, Harvey Dent, Bane, John Blake

  37. #157

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  38. #158
    I don't play, I slay. Lolita's Avatar
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    Batman LSI-N (hardcore avenger due to Ti+Fi)
    Joker SEE-C (psychotic Ne from subtype, extra violent Se stuff from base and subtype)
    Bruce Wayne SLE-D (plays the successful businessman who works hard and plays hard, playboy billionaire)

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