Extroverted Sensing PoLR and Seeking

[Shytan]

How would you tell the difference between Se seeking and Se PoLR? Because I tend to attract Se egos too @Fay, because I'm really pathetic with Se. And I like it when Se egos exert their power on me, and give commands, and help me out with Se stuff.
Also, are there traits that actually align with your functions? For example, a soft voice for Se PolR and probably Se seekers? And a commanding tone or deep voice for Se egos?

[User Name]

Well, I actually don't know. I'm certainly 1D and I often find difficult to speak loudly. So, I agree that voice could be a sign of high/low .

Honestly, I still can't figure out how suggestive works. As an ILI, I should seek it, but from a general point of view I'm not attracted that much. The only thing I know is that it's poorly developed and, as an average human being, I dislike aggressive and pushy people.

By the way, you seem more seeking than PoLR. That post sounds so Victim.

[Chae]

Suggestive: Likes strong and bold people, even overbearing attitudes - can easily be shaken up, strength symbols and qualities appeal to them. Unadjusted volitional attitude, but can be guided with ease.
PoLR: Despise pressure, pretense, violence, abuse, authority - too inclined to favor peaceful leisure. Unadjusted volitional attitude, can hardly be guided directly without meeting suaveness criterion.


Voice can differ among all. Although egos really know how to project their tone powerfully. Added as in the SEE can amplify this.

[dot]

Suggestive: Likes strong and bold people, even overbearing attitudes - can easily be shaken up, strength symbols and qualities appeal to them. Unadjusted volitional attitude, but can be guided with ease.
PoLR: Despise pressure, pretense, violence, abuse, authority - too inclined to favor peaceful leisure. Unadjusted volitional attitude, can hardly be guided directly without meeting suaveness criterion.


Voice can differ among all. Although egos really know how to project their tone powerfully. Added as in the SEE can amplify this.

I disagree with Ni-doms being easily guided, I only go along with what I agree, so does my ILI friend and my other IEI friend (basically most IEIs I met). I actually think most Ni egos and especially the doms are pretty stubborn. Se rather excites me and I naturally want to do the things they do or at least I like them, but yes I like 'bold/powerful' people. Se doms can raise their voice.. most of whom I met didn't have specifically deep voices or something.. most SLEs (even the male ones) I met have rather light voices, nothing unusual about them.
I think their presence is pretty powerful and they got the 'don't fuck with me' vibe, yet some SLEs aren't that flashy actually and seem to act more form a shadow-position.. especially Ti-subs do not have an as strong presence as the Se-subs. It's more about the willpower to execute pressure/ get what you want. To endure and conquer basically.
Most EIIs I met were very soft actually.. and if they disagree with something they might not join in but I don't see much willpower, power of resistence within them. They usually don't mind going along.
I actually think my Se dom friends are the only ones who can actually make me do something because of their strong presence/domineering personalities.

I remember an SLI in school (who probably had some issues) who yelled at a SEE friend to get up from her place so he could sit down and she actually left and he sat down (he was scolded by someone whom I suspect to be ESI that this was pretty rude and it totally was). SEEs can be domineering, but I do soemtimes notice that they can also bow down in certain situations. Might have something to do with gender roles too.

I also don't have difficulty to speak loudly if I have to despite being 1D Se.

[Chae]

I disagree with Ni-doms being easily guided, I only go along with what I agree, so does my ILI friend and my other IEI friend (basically most IEIs I met). I actually think most Ni egos and especially the doms are pretty stubborn. Se rather excites me and I naturally want to do the things they do or at least I like them, but yes I like 'bold/powerful' people. Se doms can raise their voice.. most of whom I met didn't have specifically deep voices or something.. most SLEs (even the male ones) I met have rather light voices, nothing unusual about them.
I think their presence is pretty powerful and they got the 'don't fuck with me' vibe, yet some SLEs aren't that flashy actually and seem to act more form a shadow-position.. especially Ti-subs do not have an as strong presence as the Se-subs. It's more about the willpower to execute pressure/ get what you want. To endure and conquer basically.
Most EIIs I met were very soft actually.. and if they disagree with something they might not join in but I don't see much willpower, power of resistence within them. They usually don't mid going along.
I actually think my Se dom friends are the only ones who can actually make me do something because of their strong presence/domineering personalities.

I remember an SLI in school (who probably had some issues) who yelled at a SEE friend to get up from her place so he could sit down and she actually left and he sat down (he was scolded by someone whom I suspect to be ESI that this was pretty rude and it totally was). SEEs can be domineering, but I do soemtimes notice that they can also bow down in certain situations. Might have something to do with gender roles too.

I also don't have difficulty to speak loudly if I have to despite being 1D Se.

Ditto. Thanks for the account! And guidance means, a proper one by lead that breaks through barriers because what else could it be It goes two ways, no force without resistance.

[Bertrand]

i think the nature of Se suggestive is you're guided by Se without explicitly realizing it, hence it feels like you only go along with Se directives you "agree with"--which happens to be like almost all of them. when you get in a direct Se v Se confrontation I bet you can feel it, the rest of the time the battle tends to be over before it starts

however because Ni likewise guides Se there does tend to be a lack of open conflict, so it harmoniously flows both ways and self-regulates

when Ni doms come into open Se warfare a lot of time its with Se demonstrative

[dot]

i think the nature of Se suggestive is you're guided by Se without explicitly realizing it, hence it feels like you only go along with Se directives you "agree with"--which happens to be like almost all of them. when you get in a direct Se v Se confrontation I bet you can feel it, the rest of the time the battle tends to be over before it starts

however because Ni likewise guides Se there does tend to be a lack of open conflict, so it productively flows both ways

when Ni doms come into open Se warfare a lot of time its with Se demonstrative

I think in my life time I came across many SLEs and the asshole-rate wasn't low, so I disagree with following most of them. There have been tons of duals I didn't like on a personal level and because of their values I wouldn't go along with them.
But yes Ni steers Se internally, giving them a direction.

[Chae]

i think the nature of Se suggestive is you're guided by Se without explicitly realizing it, hence it feels like you only go along with Se directives you "agree with"--which happens to be like almost all of them. when you get in a direct Se v Se confrontation I bet you can feel it, the rest of the time the battle tends to be over before it starts

because Ni likewise guides Se there does tend to be a lack of open conflict, so it flows both ways

when Ni doms come into open Se conflict a lot of time its with Se demonstrative

Exactly.

Good point with LSE and ESE. For LII and EII that would congruently be?

[dot]

I mostly had 'yelling' fights with other types than Se doms, especially ESEs indeed, but there have been exceptions due to non-socionics related reasons.

[Bertrand]

when people are acting through their demonstrative its usually an unconscious byproduct of their creative that is coming out very strongly--stronger than they realize, but it may not be well calibrated (in virtue of lack of direct attention paid to it), thus a person on the receiving end who values it may be scrutinizing it carefully and perceiving some flaw with it and thus feel compelled to resist it, however they're in a disadvantageous position to do so--its the conscious realization they're being fucked over but not being able to really stop it or resist it effectively, hence they tend to use other functions to cover for their weakness. its how an EII might be getting strong Te from a SLE that they emphatically do not accept but cannot well articulate or battle it directly so they hit back with a Fi counterstroke that is likewise incomprehensible to SLE because Fi polr but also because theyre not really tracking the "Te issue" consciously. this in turn may elicit a Se response to buttress any weakness of the initial Te offense and push it through which in turn hits the EII polr. its a good recipe for a freak out

its an escalation of conflict because of repeated failures to understand one another because all attempts to use one's strong functions to communicate only exacerbate things, but its precisely in those dire situations where people are most inclined to fall back on their tried and true strengths, which is why relaxation is the best way to deal with conflictor, but also one of the hardest things to do

[Saoirse]

I'm 1D Se, and I'm pretty loud when I'm with my friends or on stage. Voice volume depending on Se dimensionality would boil down to sensors being loud and intuitives being quiet, which hasn't been true in my experience. I think the line is more intratims vs. extratims here.

I like when certain people tell me what to do or take care of Se stuff for me, but not when Se egos do it. When Se egos do it, I feel that they are looking down on me because I am deficient in an important attribute. When Delta STs do it, especially LSE, they just do it without really noticing or passing judgment on me.

I think one hint (that is not 100% reliable but might be useful) is whether you address issues as they come up or whether you quietly let your anger build until you suddenly snap and yell and confuse everyone because you didn't give any indication that you were displeased before. I think Se PoLR is more likely to do the latter. Even though Se suggestives have 1D Se, they like Se enough to use it enough to get experience in it (the first dimension) and use it more/better, so they can assert their preferences gently before it gets to the point of blowing up.

[wasp]

I think in my life time I came across many SLEs and the asshole-rate wasn't low, so I disagree with following most of them. There have been tons of duals I didn't like on a personal level and because of their values I wouldn't go along with them.
But yes Ni steers Se internally, giving them a direction.

i think the point of not consciously realizing the effect it has on you, is that you don't consciously realize the effect it has on you, but it might help to think of it independent from duality? Se-seeking might be why IEIs are known to unwittingly chase power, status, and money (Se), why they may find themselves in seemingly "abusive" relationships, why they drive fast on the road, why they venture through dangerous alleys, and why they listen to aggressive or loud music. Se being their suggestive would mean that they don't realize any of this until their inevitable comedown. it's not like they're intentionally trying to get themselves in trouble, it's quite literally out of their control. the suggestive wants what it wants, but of course there are limits.

obviously these are more negative examples, but i'm just trying to touch on how "suggestible" people can be to their respective suggestive function.

i've noticed something similar with LxE types, Fi-seeking, and a soft spot for little children, but i've seen this in LSE more than LIE.

[dot]

i think the point of not consciously realizing the effect it has on you, is that you don't consciously realize the effect it has on you, but it might help to think of it independent from duality? Se-seeking might be why IEIs are known to unwittingly chase power, status, and money (Se), why they may find themselves in seemingly "abusive" relationships, why they drive fast on the road, why they venture through dangerous alleys, and why they listen to aggressive or loud music. Se being their suggestive would mean that they don't realize any of this until their inevitable comedown. it's not like they're intentionally trying to get themselves in trouble, it's quite literally out of their control. the suggestive wants what it wants, but of course there are limits.

obviously these are more negative examples, but i'm just trying to touch on how "suggestible" people can be to their respective suggestive function.

i've noticed something similar with LxE types, Fi-seeking, and a soft spot for little children, but i've seen this in LSE more than LIE.

I am actually aware of assholes and have somewhat healthy boundaries when it comes to romance, so no I didn't get in trouble yet. I as an individual am very cautious actually. I seek Se because I love the excitement and adrenaline rush I often feel through Se-doms.. yes I sometimes even like rap.. but I also know IEIs who don't.
Just because I seek Se doesn't mean I am blind.. I still can see if someone is an asshole or not. I would say any healthy human knows what they are doing or get into (only not when things really seem to appear out of the blue). What you describe is rather the blindness that many people have when in love -> abusive relationship. I do have a bit of a bad boy fetish.. but that is more of a fantasy than anything real, actually.
I personally haven't met any IEIs in an abusive relationship IRL either.. maybe because these are healthy, normal people. I actually met more other types in relationships like these.
I sometimes have dramatc accidents because of the clumsiness factor and me being a physical klutz.. but again: not every other IEI I know does that either.

Being a type is not an excuse to just do everything on autopilot, you are still an acting and thinking person, who hold responsibility for your decisions and relationships.

[scio]

I'm really happy someone posted about this. I've been wondering this for a long time. I have had many EII childhood friends.
All of them share one distinct thing in common: they all yell in public places. Not yelling per se but have absolutely
NO perception of how loud they are being. It's like they cannot see how they impact a room at all. When they are loud they often need people to
tell them to quiet down because they will just speak, not minding that people around can hear everything they're saying.
It's extremely adorable tbh. But I think it's definitely Se PolR bc it's a lack of awareness. They aren't avoiding making an impact or impression by being rowdy, it's like they don't even know they have to be aware of it.

If I actually am Se Suggestive, then I guess I can supply how I react. I am HYPER aware of myself in space. I am aware of my clumsiness and how I move poorly in space. I am aware of my tone as I'm speaking and can get into this weird state of mind a lot where I'm watching myself talk outside of myself. I try desperately to prove that I'm not like this, though. Not out of dishonesty but to prove that I can do Se stuff to myself. I am extra shy around Se doms because I can sense that I can't try to act the way they do. It will be so apparent that I am so weak and wimpy. Lol I will play games to people I define as safe. I am extra playful if I feel like someone will respond to it. I also am a very subversive person, which I think naturally attracts an Se ego in general. I put up a fight if I feel the slightest bit of control over me and will often rebel against it, even though I want someone to keep trying.

The EIIs I know would never even see this in the dynamic. They don't care about rebelling against it, they kind of just give in. This quickly, I think, would make the Se ego bored because there's no challenge. They want someone who won't always listen to them, ime.

But as for the traits, I'm shy around loud people. It depends on who I'm talking to. I have a soft voice in general and can't yell very effectively. I've always been sensitive to loud noises and if an Se ego is yelling around me I will ask them to speak in a lower voice. Dunno if this is actually type related.

[wasp]

@vertu "EIIs are very attuned to the psychological atmosphere of interaction."

that is one of the defining traits of EII. they have a rather melancholic tone (known to stifle all playfulness in others, or something to that effect) which they may hype up on occasion, oftentimes in a close group of friends, but i have yet to meet an EII with an obnoxious voice that ticks off everyone around them. when they lose it, maybe, but that's the case for most, if not all, types. that's more beta territory. in fact, that's precisely the kind of complaint a delta would deliver to a beta, albeit quietly and to themselves. i can't imagine either Se PoLR just "giving in" to Se-egos, they couldn't care less about Se, and so they'd probably just walk away quietly or say, "no thanks" and move on. those observations seem off-base to me, but if not then do correct me.

[Bertrand]

yeah being loud at the expense of others seems like valued Se, not Se polr. Polr would probably regulate on such percieved aggression, although perhaps on very rare occasions they might have a flip out of their own, that is the exception not the rule

[wasp]

i suppose i just disliked the implication that Se-PoLR (specifically EII) = no backbone, as if resistance is synonymous with weakness. i've witnessed so many EIIs caught in the crossfire between two or more loved ones, which eventually results in those same "loved ones" directing some of the heat toward the EII. they don't just stand there and take it because they're weak, especially if you consider what's happening "under the hood", it's a whole new level of self-control, and they'll still listen to you vent afterwards, all night until the next morning, if it's necessary. trust me when i say that the conflict will linger with the EII much longer than it'll linger with their loved ones. most of the EIIs i know will keep their innermost feelings contained in private diaries/blogs to avoid burdening others with them, and then they'll quietly pick up the pieces and carry on as normal the next day, without complaint.

[Bertrand]

I definitely agree that withholding volitional pressure in order to get one's way is often a sign of strength not the absence of it

[User Name]

I think one hint (that is not 100% reliable but might be useful) is whether you address issues as they come up or whether you quietly let your anger build until you suddenly snap and yell and confuse everyone because you didn't give any indication that you were displeased before. I think Se PoLR is more likely to do the latter. Even though Se suggestives have 1D Se, they like Se enough to use it enough to get experience in it (the first dimension) and use it more/better, so they can assert their preferences gently before it gets to the point of blowing up.

This is very helpful. I completely relate to the second sentence (Se PoLR). In fact, since I'm quite shy, if someone is not giving me what I need/not treating me in a fair way, I never talk about the issue to this person. Instead, I wait and wait, until my emotions explodes and are expressed in form of pure anger. As I said somewhere, this happens sporadically, but when it happens, it's very strong. This reflects my inability to use in the PoLR.

[dot]

I'm really happy someone posted about this. I've been wondering this for a long time. I have had many EII childhood friends.
All of them share one distinct thing in common: they all yell in public places. Not yelling per se but have absolutely
NO perception of how loud they are being. It's like they cannot see how they impact a room at all. When they are loud they often need people to
tell them to quiet down because they will just speak, not minding that people around can hear everything they're saying.
It's extremely adorable tbh. But I think it's definitely Se PolR bc it's a lack of awareness. They aren't avoiding making an impact or impression by being rowdy, it's like they don't even know they have to be aware of it.

If I actually am Se Suggestive, then I guess I can supply how I react. I am HYPER aware of myself in space. I am aware of my clumsiness and how I move poorly in space. I am aware of my tone as I'm speaking and can get into this weird state of mind a lot where I'm watching myself talk outside of myself. I try desperately to prove that I'm not like this, though. Not out of dishonesty but to prove that I can do Se stuff to myself. I am extra shy around Se doms because I can sense that I can't try to act the way they do. It will be so apparent that I am so weak and wimpy. Lol I will play games to people I define as safe. I am extra playful if I feel like someone will respond to it. I also am a very subversive person, which I think naturally attracts an Se ego in general. I put up a fight if I feel the slightest bit of control over me and will often rebel against it, even though I want someone to keep trying.

The EIIs I know would never even see this in the dynamic. They don't care about rebelling against it, they kind of just give in. This quickly, I think, would make the Se ego bored because there's no challenge. They want someone who won't always listen to them, ime.

But as for the traits, I'm shy around loud people. It depends on who I'm talking to. I have a soft voice in general and can't yell very effectively. I've always been sensitive to loud noises and if an Se ego is yelling around me I will ask them to speak in a lower voice. Dunno if this is actually type related.

Actually all EIIs I met in my life so far have the softest voices ever and do not yell.. this actually makes no sense to me, lol. It is actually me who can get unusually loud and I do not have a problem with being aggressive.. all decisive quadra people secretly have something aggressive about them (in a Ni and Se way I mean). EIIs aren't very forceful.. but compared to other introverts I actually kind am very stubborn and forceful and at times loud.. sometimes too loud and only later I was like "oh no why was I so loud, people were probably annoyed".

[Olimpia]

i think the nature of Se suggestive is you're guided by Se without explicitly realizing it, hence it feels like you only go along with Se directives you "agree with"--which happens to be like almost all of them. when you get in a direct Se v Se confrontation I bet you can feel it, the rest of the time the battle tends to be over before it starts

however because Ni likewise guides Se there does tend to be a lack of open conflict, so it harmoniously flows both ways and self-regulates

when Ni doms come into open Se warfare a lot of time its with Se demonstrative

I've found the influence of my LSE father rather obnoxious at times, because the comes packaged in valuing/lead.

However, I was still usually swayed by him to some extent.

I do agree with @Chae that lead types are easily swayed or guided by people with strong volition – because they are both weak at it and receptive to it. Reinin has talked about this tendency in leads, too. They often end up doing something they did not want to do in the first place, or what was against their better judgment.

People of this type can hardly resist persuasion: when pressed to do something, they are almost defenseless. A Balzac may 'unexpectedly' find herself involved in a strange activity. They often need an external push in order to do something. On the other hand, they are unable to resist the pressure. A person of the opposite sex comes to a Balzac and says: “I am moving in, I will live with you”. – “Well, OK”. A Balzac has even weaker resistibility than a Tutankhamon.

As an IEI, I can fall prey to this dynamic especially when it involves Fe and Social instinct related matters. For instance, I let myself be convinced that I should study Law; my father wouldn't stop bringing it up, so I just gave in. He'd bring up Social reasons, and Self-preservation ones... Only once I was depressed because of my choice did I snap out of my stupor and decided to stop studying Law against my parents' wishes.

Again, being Fe valuing and Social instinct, I care about what other people think and say; especially if they are close to me and have greater influence on me, I can be swayed.

Basically, when it comes to anything I should do, I can be easily swayed.
The only area where I can be stubborn and resistant is anything involving my - beliefs; when it comes to what makes logical sense to me and just "falls into place" in my mind etc.
This kind of stubbornness is apparent in the way I act on the forum often times, when it comes to Socionics etc.

P.S: Being swayed easily like that is also often connected with Type 9. I know of SEI 9s who could also be more easily swayed, Ignoring and valuing adds to that. ESI 9s, depends. Initially they might be influenced, but they tend to push back way sooner when something goes against their values.

P.P.S: It's difficult to distinguish what I said from PoLR, because they are also rather defenseless when it comes to .

[Olimpia]

Actually all EIIs I met in my life so far have the softest voices ever and do not yell.. this actually makes no sense to me, lol.

I don't know any loud EIIs either.

What @vertu talked about rather reminded me of some oblivious, likely SO blindspot IEEs.

[Olimpia]

My little SEE sister likes to be physically rough or impactful with me. When she welcomes/greets me, she'll hug me, step on my toes (she is not heavy, so it doesn't hurt), and dance around with me. When I sit on the couch somewhere, or I am being motionless for whatever reason, she'll come up and clap fairly strongly on my shoulder or back as if she was patting a horse (she does love horse-riding, so that is where it comes from). We both enjoy the loud sound the patting creates, ha. Whereas my ESE-Si mother always gets annoyed when my sister does those things, she'll tell us to stop, because she cannot relax when we are doing that.

Or sometimes she'll tell me to go on the ground, and then I lay there on the ground, haha. And then she kicks my butt or sits on top of me. Or she acts like as if I was her horse again, puts her hands on my shoulders, and says "Trot!". So I start trotting like a horse around the room with her walking behind me, haha. Then she says "Gallop!" and I gallop, haha. It's kind of hilarious. But again, when my ESE-Si mother is around, she'll get annoyed. Our interactions annoy her Creative; she wants a harmonious atmosphere, we are ruining it by being rowdy.

When my sister is being angry, she'll also feel free to just kick and slap me around. My limit is the slap to the face, I'll tell her that is not okay. But other than that, I somehow let it happen mostly. I do not really fight back. And somehow I understand what she's doing. I'd only get upset if it hurt really badly or almost created an injury of some kind. Once she poked me in the eye, and that wasn't cool, haha. But I forgave her for it rather quickly...

I am assuming that an PoLR person wouldn't really be okay with most of what I just described. The reaction of my ESE mother to those interactions gives me the impression she'd protect her Dual from such interactions. She's also confused as to why we both enjoy them. Especially when I scream, it'll look like my little sister is torturing me.

P.S: My LSE father usually tells my sister to stop, too.

[dot]

I've found the influence of my LSE father rather obnoxious at times, because the comes packaged in valuing/lead.

However, I was still usually swayed by him to some extent.

I do agree with @Chae that lead types are easily swayed or guided by people with strong volition – because they are both weak at it and receptive to it. Reinin has talked about this tendency in leads, too. They often end up doing something they did not want to do in the first place, or what was against their better judgment.



As an IEI, I can fall prey to this dynamic especially when it involves Fe and Social instinct related matters. For instance, I let myself be convinced that I should study Law; my father wouldn't stop bringing it up, so I just gave in. He'd bring up Social reasons, and Self-preservation ones... Only once I was depressed because of my choice did I snap out of my stupor and decided to stop studying Law against my parents' wishes.

Again, being Fe valuing and Social instinct, I care about what other people think and say; especially if they are close to me and have greater influence on me, I can be swayed.

Basically, when it comes to anything I should do, I can be easily swayed.
The only area where I can be stubborn and resistant is anything involving my - beliefs; when it comes to what makes logical sense to me and just "falls into place" in my mind etc.
This kind of stubbornness is apparent in the way I act on the forum often times, when it comes to Socionics etc.

P.S: Being swayed easily like that is also often connected with Type 9. I know of SEI 9s who could also be more easily swayed, Ignoring and valuing adds to that. ESI 9s, depends. Initially they might be influenced, but they tend to push back way sooner when something goes against their values.

P.P.S: It's difficult to distinguish what I said from PoLR, because they are also rather defenseless when it comes to .

One of my biggest problems when growing up was actually that I would never listen to what people wanted me to do, I rather rebelled against it/ would do the complete opposite.. and I actually once had to argue with an SLE about money (how much I charged for my photography), after a certain point I wouldn't go down anymore and nothing and noone could change that (because I knew what my service was worth). Instead we just left it at that and didn't work together.
Some people can make me do something but even my closest friends cannot always convince me. Idk I do not feel that much like a pushover as some other IEIs might feel.. but I was more of a pushover with people I really liked and didn't want to disappoint.

[Adam Strange]

One of my biggest problems when growing up was actually that I would never listen to what people wanted me to do, I rather rebelled against it/ would do the complete opposite.. and I actually once had to argue with an SLE about money (how much I charged for my photography), after a certain point I wouldn't go down anymore and nothing and noone could change that (because I knew what my service was worth). Instead we just left it at that and didn't work together.
Some people can make me do something but even my closest friends cannot always convince me. Idk I do not feel that much like a pushover as some other IEIs might feel.. but I was more of a pushover with people I really liked and didn't want to disappoint.

IDK if this is an Se-PoLR problem. I, too, refuse to be controlled. The other thing is that you absolutely must have a price floor. Otherwise, there is no limit as to how far people will try to reduce your price. At some point, you can find yourself working for someone and paying them for the privilege. They call this "interning". Also, slavery. And the lower your cost to someone, the more they will bitch about you and your work.
You should charge them:
1. As much as they can possibly pay, plus some. I mean it. Most of my success at pricing comes from experience in figuring out what this amount is.
2. Enough for you to both make an adequate living and feel that you want to keep doing it.

[Adam Strange]

My little SEE sister likes to be physically rough or impactful with me. When she welcomes/greets me, she'll hug me, step on my toes (she is not heavy, so it doesn't hurt), and dance around with me. When I sit on the couch somewhere, or I am being motionless for whatever reason, she'll come up and clap fairly strongly on my shoulder or back as if she was patting a horse (she does love horse-riding, so that is where it comes from). We both enjoy the loud sound the patting creates, ha. Whereas my ESE-Si mother always gets annoyed when my sister does those things, she'll tell us to stop, because she cannot relax when we are doing that.

Or sometimes she'll tell me to go on the ground, and then I lay there on the ground, haha. And then she kicks my butt or sits on top of me. Or she acts like as if I was her horse again, puts her hands on my shoulders, and says "Trot!". So I start trotting like a horse around the room with her walking behind me, haha. Then she says "Gallop!" and I gallop, haha. It's kind of hilarious. But again, when my ESE-Si mother is around, she'll get annoyed. Our interactions annoy her Creative; she wants a harmonious atmosphere, we are ruining it by being rowdy.

When my sister is being angry, she'll also feel free to just kick and slap me around. My limit is the slap to the face, I'll tell her that is not okay. But other than that, I somehow let it happen mostly. I do not really fight back. And somehow I understand what she's doing. I'd only get upset if it hurt really badly or almost created an injury of some kind. Once she poked me in the eye, and that wasn't cool, haha. But I forgave her for it rather quickly...

I am assuming that an PoLR person wouldn't really be okay with most of what I just described. The reaction of my ESE mother to those interactions gives me the impression she'd protect her Dual from such interactions. She's also confused as to why we both enjoy them. Especially when I scream, it'll look like my little sister is torturing me.

P.S: My LSE father usually tells my sister to stop, too.

It sounds like the IEI is giving the SEE training in ILI. And maybe the SEE is giving the IEI training in SLE.

So close, and yet so far.

I know of a married couple consisting of a female IEI therapist and a male SEE musician. They have been married for many years and seem happy, but socionics says they would be better matched with duals. This might be true, if they had the time and opportunity in the "marriage window" to meet a dual with the specific characteristics they found in each other which caused them to see each other as a couple.

The latter is not so easy.

[ooo]

Ah! I'm an EII and most people would tell me to raise my voice when I'm talking (when I do that), but for some reason, when I'm comfy with someone and having a good talk, in a public place, often I'll be told that "why are you talking so loud?!", and it's very embarassing 'cause I would never have realized.. eheh.

I used to always fall for Se too! Omg.. the messiest relationships I've had, but for real, what an attraction! I think there's an uncovered wish to be more like them too.

[Olimpia]

It sounds like the IEI is giving the SEE training in ILI. And maybe the SEE is giving the IEI training in SLE.

So close, and yet so far.

I know of a married couple consisting of a female IEI therapist and a male SEE musician. They have been married for many years and seem happy, but socionics says they would be better matched with duals. This might be true, if they had the time and opportunity in the "marriage window" to meet a dual with the specific characteristics they found in each other which caused them to see each other as a couple.

The latter is not so easy.

Are you saying they should find someone who's a Dual and divorce each other?
In that case, I wouldn't say that this is okay... If two people are happily married and love each other, why should they find a Dual instead... To be more happy? This reminds me too much of the "grass is always greener"-syndrome. Even when it comes to Duals, there'll be some who are more or less attractive, or more or less suitable. So what if you have a Dual, but you don't find them as attractive? You'll look for another Dual who is more attractive? Etc.

Or are you just saying that they should find a Dual friend but stay married?
That could be acceptable.

[Olimpia]

Ah! I'm an EII and most people would tell me to raise my voice when I'm talking (when I do that), but for some reason, when I'm comfy with someone and having a good talk, in a public place, often I'll be told that "why are you talking so loud?!", and it's very embarassing 'cause I would never have realized.. eheh.

I used to always fall for Se too! Omg.. the messiest relationships I've had, but for real, what an attraction! I think there's an uncovered wish to be more like them too.

What makes you think you are EII?

I don't really know you ofc, but what you just said doesn't sound like EII to me...

[scio]

Okie okie sorry y'all perhaps they were IEEs that were fairly introverted lol
they are 100000% Delta NFs tho

[Olimpia]

Okie okie sorry y'all perhaps they were IEEs that were fairly introverted lol
they were 100000% Delta NFs tho

Yeah, maybe they were simply Fi subtype and SO blindspot.
Those IEEs can come across as introverted.

[ooo]

@Medusa
how does it sound to you? : )

[dot]

IDK if this is an Se-PoLR problem. I, too, refuse to be controlled. The other thing is that you absolutely must have a price floor. Otherwise, there is no limit as to how far people will try to reduce your price. At some point, you can find yourself working for someone and paying them for the privilege. They call this "interning". Also, slavery. And the lower your cost to someone, the more they will bitch about you and your work.
You should charge them:
1. As much as they can possibly pay, plus some. I mean it. Most of my success at pricing comes from experience in figuring out what this amount is.
2. Enough for you to both make an adequate living and feel that you want to keep doing it.

Well not if two people try to pressure you to lower it or do the SLE thing to intimidate you "you're not a professional" and so on wanting me to give in.. many introverted and ethical types I met have a very hard way standing up for themsleves. I would describe myself of hard to convince most of the time. I also do not know what else one could mean with pressure, what I mean by this is I do not give in when people try to convince me or pressure me into things I do not want to do.. no matter if I should or not. This is just one example of many, one situation to illustrate it a bit.
You also quoted the wrong post I guess..

Well I am Se seeking not POLR.. and what I mean is that I am not easily guided at all.. most EIIs I met were though.
I just do nto agree with IEIs havign to be a pushover tbh, not my experience with my own type so far. Some were softer and some were not.

[Adam Strange]

Are you saying they should find someone who's a Dual and divorce each other?
In that case, I wouldn't say that this is okay... If two people are happily married and love each other, why should they find a Dual instead... To be more happy? This reminds me too much of the "grass is always greener"-syndrome. Even when it comes to Duals, there'll be some who are more or less attractive, or more or less suitable. So what if you have a Dual, but you don't find them as attractive? You'll look for another Dual who is more attractive? Etc.

Or are you just saying that they should find a Dual friend but stay married?
That could be acceptable.

No, I was not saying they should find a dual and divorce.

I was just reflecting on the fact that I have found people who are just a bit off from my dual to be very compatible in most ways, but not in all, and the "not all" eventually causes problems. And I have found that I am pretty compatible IRL with most duals, but I would consider a LTR with very few of them because they lack that certain "something" which causes me to think we could be a couple. Our "numbers" don't add up to the same number. We might be a perfect match in Socionics and Enneagram and world view but a large mis-match somewhere else. And there is only a narrow window in which a person can find a mate. Like, no more than 122 years.

Choosing a mate is like choosing a place to have lunch. There are many choices, some clearly better than others, but you have to make a choice fairly quickly and you can't know beforehand how it will turn out and no place is perfect.
However, a mate usually lasts longer than lunch, so you should, perhaps, put more thought into finding a good one.

[Olimpia]

@Medusa
how does it sound to you? : )

Not sure. It just doesn't sound like Ignoring and PoLR.

[ooo]

maybe people are more different than 16 types of socionics + subtypes?

[dot]

maybe people are more different than 16 types of socionics + subtypes?

I agree. I dislike when people try to push certain type expectations on me "maybe you just do not notice how Se affects you" to just weaken my arguments, not make it count or dismiss me being an autonomous being. Just because you process information similarly doesn't make one the same person/ have the same experiences.

1. I most of the time go along when I agree or want the same or when the person means enough to me to be submissive.
2. I don't like the IEI -> abusive relationship stereotype.

[ooo]

sorry if that came off as rude. perhaps I'm not an EII, but that's the one that makes more sense. I made a test yesterday and I came of as LII, then I'd have the same Se PolR. I tend to go with IEE sometime too.

[ooo]

Anyway I was forgetting but my bf is ESI. lol wow

[Olimpia]

No, I was not saying they should find a dual and divorce.

I was just reflecting on the fact that I have found people who are just a bit off from my dual to be very compatible in most ways, but not in all, and the "not all" eventually causes problems. And I have found that I am pretty compatible IRL with most duals, but I would consider a LTR with very few of them because they lack that certain "something" which causes me to think we could be a couple. Our "numbers" don't add up to the same number. We might be a perfect match in Socionics and Enneagram and world view but a large mis-match somewhere else. And there is only a narrow window in which a person can find a mate. Like, no more than 122 years.

What the Duality theory fails to address is the fact that in the real world, perfection doesn't exist.

Having said that, it also depends on your exact standards. Some people might be able to find "their perfect Dual" because their standards are not too high or not too specific, or the standards just happen to fit well into what people of that type are naturally like.

I find it counterproductive to believe in perfection when it comes to romantic relationship. It can be something to strive towards, but never something to expect or take for granted.

It's more reasonable to figure out which aspects are a "must-have", and which imperfections are acceptable. Basically, figure out your values and what matters more to you.
For many people, it matters more that their partner shares the same values (e.g in terms of faith, politics, child rearing etc.) and meets their standards for physical attractiveness.
For you, your partner being your Dual may matter more, but then you might have to accept some discrepancies or imperfections in other areas, again, depending on your standards.