How to tell apart LSIs-ISTjs and SLIs-ISTps

[anndelise]

The ISTp I dated was at least capable of expressing his evaluations of a topic. If he felt I should know it, at least. Also, he would sometimes ask me why I felt a certain way about a topic, and actually LISTENED to me and sometimes responded in kind. If we disagreed about something, it didn't affect our relationship much.

The ISTj I dated would judge my actions/words, show it in his body stance and eyes, but would not (could not?) express it in words. He would not even listen to my explanations of why I chose such and such action. My explanations seemed to go in one ear and out the other. It's as if he'd make his judgement, and nothing in the world could penetrate through it. We lasted one stupid little disagreemeent, I was busy with a crying daughter so I couldn't immediately attempt to resolve it with him, he walked out of my world 2 minutes later. (Thankfully, as that was a very stressful relationship to maintain.)

[JuJu]

Can someone help me with this..?
How do these two types (ISTjs and ISTps) act differently?
How can one tell them apart?
How do Beta values manifest in an ISTj? Delta values in an ISTp?

Thanks everyone.

[force my hand]

One pisses you off. One carts you off to magical places.

(so the idea goes)

[JuJu]

Type descriptions would be appreciated.

[jessica129]

I sure hope no one mistakes me for an ISTJ. ew.

[PotatoSpirit]

A good way could be to look for Se in social interactions.

[FDG]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

[jessica129]

A good way could be to look for Se in social interactions.

yeah, that's a good one. the ISTp will probably be too busy eating 10 pounds of Chicago pizza.

And a lb of cookie dough...

[jessica129]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

[FDG]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

[Slacker]

I agree with Jessica. Rage, rage against the social order!!

[xyz]

I agree with Jessica. Rage, rage against the social order!!

Yeah, don't mistake our unwillingess to spout off how we feel about every little thing as conservative. Seems so far most ISTp's hate being thought of as followers.

[FDG]

(FDG) but the ISTp is irrational and without Ne POLR. so maybe the ISTj in comparison is prone to getting stuck in "yesterday's" beta values or something. i've seen the opposite of what you're saying happen several times.

MMM. Might be territorial differences then? I thought Te-Fi quadra values reached the peak of traditionalism when couple with Si, kind of the opposite of Fe-Ti values with Se. I mean even when an ISTp says he's rebellious he still wants to do barbecues all day and doesn't really give a shit about political overthrows, much more detached, maybe anarchist, but not really involved

whereas many istjs are into parties that have nothing really to do with reality anymore (say communist parties in the western world) etc etc

I mean I can't dispute what you have seen of course, it's just that i've seen different stuff basically

[Ezra]

It's piss easy to tell apart an SLI and an LSI. One uses blocked with , and the other uses blocked with . It's much more likely that you'd mistake an LSI for an SLE or vice versa than for an SLI. In the same way, you're more likely to mistake an SLI for an LSE, and vice versa, than for an LSI. They act completely differently due to their valuing different functions.

[UDP]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

[FDG]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

I don't think religious extremism is generally considered conservative. They're rather pushy with their values.

[UDP]

LSI is more likely to be an anal asshole that will point out any logical faults right away.
SLI is more likely to not really give a damn about you or your situation, regardless of logicality.


LSI has Ne polr (beta)
SLI has Fe polr (gamma)

[Ezra]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

Maybe he hasn't met an LSI.

[FDG]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

Maybe he hasn't met an LSI.

Extremely unlikely. In my youth wanderings (I was very social when I was 14-15-16) I have met an enormous number of them of the same age. Later, I've met more of older (adults). None are conservative in the way I personally use the word, but remember that I'm Italian and thus we may not be referring to the same concept.

[FDG]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

I don't think religious extremism is generally considered conservative. They're rather pushy with their values.

okay see in the US in recent years that has become one of the most frequently associated concepts with conservatism. or at least the brand of conservatism that was popular in the last two elections and within the present administration. (although with their approval ratings down conservatism may be undergoing another transformation here again.) but so yeah, even if we're typing similar people, it appears the words we're describing them with have somewhat diff territorial usages.

Ahhh ok gotcha. Here the conservatives are the moderate, middle party, whereas both extremes are considered "progressive" in their own ways, kind of, nonstationary :wink:

[JuJu]

It's piss easy to tell apart an SLI and an LSI. One uses blocked with , and the other uses blocked with . It's much more likely that you'd mistake an LSI for an SLE or vice versa than for an SLI. In the same way, you're more likely to mistake an SLI for an LSE, and vice versa, than for an LSI. They act completely differently due to their valuing different functions.

Ezra, could you please give real life (ish) examples of what you're writing about in your first sentence? That is, blocked with , and blocked with

I'd like to learn the difference.

Peace

[JuJu]

or FDG.

Thanks

[Ezra]

Essentially, blocked with is the LSI - Saddam Hussein is cited as an LSI. It combines the need for systematisation and categorisation, as well as rule-abidance; a result of the Ti, with a forceful, can-do energy provided by the Se. Be careful though how you take the functions. Basically Ti in an LII (INTj) would look very different to what it looks like in an LSI. Why? Because the LII's Ti is blocked with Ne, not Se. So, basically, you can't talk about Ti as a function unto itself, because it manifests itself differently in each Ti dominant.

[JuJu]

What about the ISTp? Could someone give an example of how those fuctions manifest?

[tcaudilllg]

ISTjs are usually rebellious and like social theories that overthrow the current order, wheras ISTps are generally more conservative (for an exampe, look at jessica's and potatospirit's reaction towards the kid dressing up for halloween)

I would think it would be the other way around.

Nay, beta vs delta

You've never met a conservative, religiously extreme LSI?
I would find that hard to believe.

I don't think religious extremism is generally considered conservative. They're rather pushy with their values.

okay see in the US in recent years that has become one of the most frequently associated concepts with conservatism. or at least the brand of conservatism that was popular in the last two elections and within the present administration. (although with their approval ratings down conservatism may be undergoing another transformation here again.) but so yeah, even if we're typing similar people, it appears the words we're describing them with have somewhat diff territorial usages.

Ahhh ok gotcha. Here the conservatives are the moderate, middle party, whereas both extremes are considered "progressive" in their own ways, kind of, nonstationary :wink:

Wow, is your culture really that different from the U.S.?

I think you can always tell a conservative from their adherence to the dominant cultural paradigm. The population element that would find most in common with the U.S. conservatives is that element which doesn't want to look at things in a new way, . It's funny: whereas progressives and liberals keep a world-wide united front (a progressive caucus in one nation will have the same values as that of another), conservatives easily find themselves at war with each other across nations because of their disparate traditions and histories.

I know that's not what you were referring to though by conservativism/rebellion, however. (ISTjs always want to decline the influence of the caucus opposite theirs, whatever it is, so their future will seem brighter.)

[tcaudilllg]

Essentially, blocked with is the LSI - Saddam Hussein is cited as an LSI. It combines the need for systematisation and categorisation, as well as rule-abidance; a result of the Ti, with a forceful, can-do energy provided by the Se. Be careful though how you take the functions. Basically Ti in an LII (INTj) would look very different to what it looks like in an LSI. Why? Because the LII's Ti is blocked with Ne, not Se. So, basically, you can't talk about Ti as a function unto itself, because it manifests itself differently in each Ti dominant.

I like hitta's +/- approach.

[jas05]

ISTjs are strict, ISTps are laid back.

[JuJu]

Please people, I'd really like an explanation in plain English, (not socionics jargon,) about the characteristics that separate these two types, how to discern them from each other, etc.
Please.
From what I understand they VI similarly--and it seems that many people have confused these two types, as illustrated by the comments regarding "rebelliousness" earlier in the thread.
Please help me tell these two apart, by any means except socionics jargon. I.e. pictures, type descriptions, etc.

Everyone join in, please.

[Slacker]

ISTjs: Think people who are very organized - very systematic, like everything to be "logical" but it's their own personal logic and won't necessarily make sense to you. There's a way things are "supposed" to be done and if you have an idea to do it some other, potentially better, way you are cursed as if you have suggested some incredible sin. They also seem to either want very much to follow an authority figure, or be the authority figure, so there might be some discussion of a person, or rule book, or "standard operating procedure", or that what they say goes, or something along the lines of following authority.

ISTp: Someone with a very leisured pace, who likes to work on things but likes to do them on his/her own schedule. Or really, not on a schedule, but as they feel like working. But they do like working on projects, and they like their projects to be useful in some way - to have some end result that has value. Cars, quilts, fishing, carpentry, whatever. The ISTps I know are not generally ambitious (and the ISTjs I've known have generally been at least ambitious within their own career or social circle or whatever). They only want enough money to live without having to worry, for their world to be comfortable, for everything they own to work as it should, and to not be rushed or made to do anything they aren't interested in. They might like naps, and they might like to have time to sit and do absolutely nothing.

These are very sketchy and obviously very biased, and people are not well typed by traits - they're better typed by motivations - but as you and I are the same type, my subjective descriptions might mean something to you even if they don't mean anything to anyone else.

[PotatoSpirit]

Please help me tell these two apart, by any means except socionics jargon. I.e. pictures, type descriptions, etc.

Ahahaha come on, this is not a secret language, if you find something you don't understand you can look it up on the wikisocion. Type descriptions are both on the wikisocion and on this forum, in the "index" thread of the "articles" section.

A few more things to look up, other than "Se in social interactions": "Fe polr", "Fe seeking", "IP temperament", "IJ temperament" :-P
I can give you a quick translation for those, but it's gonna be totally incomplete and very dependent on my personal experience:

Se in social interactions= an ISTj might tell people to do things, at times without explaining why.
Fe polr= an ISTp might find it unpleasant to be exposed to obvious emotional manifestations, especially if they are triggered by seemingly trivial events.
Fe seeking= an ISTj will usually appreciate such manifestations.
IP temperament= an ISTp is relaxed
IJ temperament= an ISTj appears calm but tense

There's a way things are "supposed" to be done

While your agrument for bias being useful since you two are the same type is quite valid, I have to answer to this (c:
I really can't stand people who do things in the way they are "supposed" to be done without thinking about it. If I have a system it's because I think it's the best, I won't accept another until you convince me it's better, it's not about dogmas at all.

[JuJu]

"Ahahaha come on, this is not a secret language, if you find something you don't understand you can look it up on the wikisocion. Type descriptions are both on the wikisocion and on this forum, in the "index" thread of the "articles" section."

Sorry dude, that answer bugged me.
A) There is a Socionics jargon... I asked for English, b/c I didn't--and don't--want a rehash of theory that's been explained better elsewhere. I wanted--and still want--stories. Examples via stories help me to clarify theories.
B) I asked this question b/c I haven't found an adequate answer anywhere, including Wikisocion. (BTW dude, I've been on this forum for awhile and know where to look for info--so rather than tell me to look stuff up, please tell me an answer.)
Also, what does "calm but tense" mean?
No offense and peace.

Slacker Mom--your response really helps. Thanks.
Just a couple more questions, (for you or anyone
* Do these types VI similarly? What would young ppl of each type most likely wear?
* Tomorrow I'll submit a picture of a kid I know--could go either way, ISTp or ISTj. Let me know what you think.

[PotatoSpirit]

Sorry dude, that answer bugged me.

No need to apologize, I don't mind
No seriusly, I didn't mean to be rude... I guess I shouldn't have laughed.

A) There is a Socionics jargon... I asked for English, b/c I didn't--and don't--want a rehash of theory that's been explained better elsewhere. I wanted--and still want--stories. Examples via stories help me to clarify theories.

Using jargon is not rehashing theory... it's a quick way to point you towards the parts of the theory that are more significant in distinguishing the two types. If that is not of value to you, I apologize, I did also try to give you a few quick practical inputs. I guess I failed.

B) I asked this question b/c I haven't found an adequate answer anywhere, including Wikisocion. (BTW dude, I've been on this forum for awhile and know where to look for info--so rather than tell me to look stuff up, please tell me an answer.)

Yeah, I was an ass there (c: I meant you should use those sources to understand what we are saying, not look the answer up yourself.

Also, what does "calm but tense" mean?

English jargon? :-PPPP
"collected, composed, cool imply the absence of agitation" but "stretched tight, as a cord, fiber, etc.; drawn taut; rigid."
I took these from dictionary.com, and I honestly believe the IJ temperament entry in the wikisocion explains it.

I'm being an ass again... a practical explanation:
People sometimes tell me to "relax" but they never tell me to "calm down", while they would tell neither to an ISTp.

[force my hand]

Also, what does "calm but tense" mean?

No real outward emotion, but an ISTj is likely to seem wound up tight - very alert, as if waiting to 'spring' into action. Binary actions - on or off.

My impressions of ISTps, on the other hand, is that they run on a continuum of states - languorous even.

[Slacker]

There's a way things are "supposed" to be done

While your agrument for bias being useful since you two are the same type is quite valid, I have to answer to this (c:
I really can't stand people who do things in the way they are "supposed" to be done without thinking about it. If I have a system it's because I think it's the best, I won't accept another until you convince me it's better, it's not about dogmas at all.

Yeah, but see your system that you think is the best will become The Way. That's the point. There is no "best way" for me for a lot of things. If I try out different ways of doing things, or do something a different way because I'm bored with the usual way and want to do it differently, or whatever, it will drive an ISTj nuts. Their way is the best way, and like you said, they won't accept another way until you can convince them it's better, which would require loads of Ti, which an ENFp isn't going to be able to get together anyway.

I don't think I phrased that well. OK, your way - the way you think is best and the way I'd have to convince you otherwise - IS the way things are "supposed" to be done.

[PotatoSpirit]

Yeah, but see your system that you think is the best will become The Way. That's the point. There is no "best way" for me for a lot of things. If I try out different ways of doing things, or do something a different way because I'm bored with the usual way and want to do it differently, or whatever, it will drive an ISTj nuts. Their way is the best way, and like you said, they won't accept another way until you can convince them it's better, which would require loads of Ti, which an ENFp isn't going to be able to get together anyway.

I don't think I phrased that well. OK, your way - the way you think is best and the way I'd have to convince you otherwise - IS the way things are "supposed" to be done.

Sweet, I understand.

[Ezra]

Essentially, blocked with is the LSI - Saddam Hussein is cited as an LSI. It combines the need for systematisation and categorisation, as well as rule-abidance; a result of the Ti, with a forceful, can-do energy provided by the Se. Be careful though how you take the functions. Basically Ti in an LII (INTj) would look very different to what it looks like in an LSI. Why? Because the LII's Ti is blocked with Ne, not Se. So, basically, you can't talk about Ti as a function unto itself, because it manifests itself differently in each Ti dominant.

I like hitta's +/- approach.

I don't. It's over confusing things.

[bolong]

LSI is more likely to be an anal asshole that will point out any logical faults right away.
SLI is more likely to not really give a damn about you or your situation, regardless of logicality.

The fuck? You have it backwards.

[UDP]

The fuck? You have it backwards.

Meh, I more or less renounce those statements as having any sort of significant value. I think most comments I've made before 2012, especially pre-2013, are worth being reconsidered.


LSI and SLI differ mostly by nature of their quadra values.
SLI is more likely to comment on how to be more effective or efficient at doing things, with a slant towards minimizing effort and maximizing quality. General disregard for
LSI is more likely to comment on whether or not things fit a certain program, structure, set of ethics, or other rational framework. General disregard for

But you can have stickler asshole SLIs, and chill LSIs.

/socionics generalizations for the ... non-win.

[Beautiful sky]

LSI look for emotionally varied environments...will make comments at "look how excited and lively this crowed is" look for that; an SLI at the bar is quiet and taking things in and engaging in on one on one with you And SLI at the lounge is relaxing in a relaxed pose while the LSI is like "yeah, let's do this!" OMG shoot me, I love LSI when they are supporting me but can't stand when they go chasing after Fe.

[Suz]

LSI is more likely to comment on whether or not things fit a certain program, structure, set of ethics, or other rational framework. General disregard for

Can you explain this some more?