If you had been on the jury (Zimmerman case)

[munenori2]

I think the verdict is acceptable, and that the family should probably pursue a civil suit a la OJ Simpson. I don't care about publicized cases of any kind and I've never quite gotten people's obsession with keeping up with them, especially given how shitty the information they're going to be getting generally is. Add to that the emotionality of the case and this stuff just gets people all worked up and that's about the worst time to be debating with incomplete information.

I'm not knocking anyone here, it's just confusing to me that people take an interest in these things and wind up emotionally invested or want to start talking about all the peripheral issues they think are involved. Primarily I'm talking about the media representations of a 24-hour news cycle that's based on pulling in viewership numbers more than informing anyone about anything. Because of that, whenever the latest biggest most heinous case is going I tend to just tune out and be indifferent. Hopefully it gets taken seriously and with suitable competence in the proper channels, but even if it isn't it's not like me giving a bunch of fucks either way is going to fix the system.

[Scapegrace]

lolz.

Look what I made!

[Absurd]

Guilty of rape.

[Hitta]

This video pretty much says all the facts.

[mu4]

Plenty of people get manslaughter for this or worse, murder for this kind of situation. A mom is going to jail for 20 years for shooting warning shots at her abusive husband. Well, Zimmerman has a lot of civil lawsuits to deal with, and that's a lot easier to prove.

The justice system fails in Florida, it lets this guy walk and let a mom go to jail for 20 years for protecting herself from an abuser.

I guess this is why Dexter is such a popular show. (and this guy Zimmerman's probably watching it) All that Florida sun must make you all sort of insane.

Also this case tells you, if you get into a fight in Florida, feign weakness then kill your opponent, this way you win in court.

[mu4]

So you feel empathetic towards him. But have you ever broken somebody's nose? Or push them on their back while beating the crap out of them on a dark, rainy, night? Was that a part of your teenage years?

Just curious, have you ever gotten your nose broken? Or gotten repeatedly knocked in your nose while on your back, with blood rushing down your throat, to where it's extremely difficult to breathe?

I've done a lot of stupid things when I was young, none of which deserves death.
I've know a lot of people who have done a lot of stupid things, fighting, breaking noses, blood, knives, whatever. None of it deserves death.

This person didn't value that boy's life, the boy might have looked old, been taller, but he wasn't any smarter than me when I was 17 or my friends. He took it and he didn't care about this boy's life, and that's all there is. The justice system hasn't judged him because it's hamstrung and it's weak, it can only do so much. But I can still judge him.

I think that most societies don't view death as a appropriate response to a street fight, and that seems reasonable, there's street fight everywhere and nobody dies, but one cocked up asshole with a gun make it way worse than it should have been.

The way I look at it, this guy's never been in a real fight, and have no idea what to do. All that MMA training and bullshit is just his desire to be less of a pussy, he is just a scared small man who want to be big and this boy paid the price. It could have to be you, it could have been some Justin Bieber look-a-like.

[mu4]

A better argument could be made for manslaughter, but I don't think as a neighborhood watcher, carrying a gun is unreasonable, especially when you're pursuing a suspicious person in the darkness of night and suspect they are holding something. If they have a gun, it's reasonable to have a gun as well. (this is where Kim screams about Skittles again. But at the time, he didn't know that of course.) Could he have carried pepper spray or something less lethal? Sure. But I think a gun in this case is appropriate.

Your condescension is ridiculous.

]I'm unfamiliar with this specific case, but just from hearing it, it seems the motivations and intentions of shooting someone you've known for multiple years, someone you chose to marry, are drastically different than a split-second skirmish with someone you don't know, fighting for your life. Are all cases 'fair'? Probably not. But I'm considering more the split second in-the-moment decisions. Firing "warning shots", or multiple shots, to combat repeated abuse, doesn't sound reasonable. As people noted on the other thread regarding the hitman, it's much more reasonable to divorce someone than to resolve things violently. The woman doesn't sound reasonable at all, if she honestly expected 'warning shots' fired from a gun would completely curb her abusive husband's behavior.

ARE you fucking kidding me.... have you seen a girl get beat down by a guy in your life. She fire warning shots so she doesn't get beat down. She can't get a divorce while getting punched in the face and blood gushing down her throat. The only difference is she didn't shoot to kill.

... Georgia isn't that far from Florida, you know.

I don't believe a broken nose is 'feigning weakness' but actually being weak. Being on your back and getting your head pounded into concrete enough to draw blood is definitely not 'faking' something. Screaming for help 14 times within 38 seconds, for any possible bystanders to jump in, is not 'feigning' anything.

Murder implies premeditated intent to kill someone. It's really hard to make that argument when he didn't know this person specifically. A better argument could have been made for manslaughter, or his ignoring the dispatcher's suggestion, or for carrying a gun, but I think all of these, within the circumstances of being the neighborhood protector & pursuing someone in the dark of night who's acting suspiciously and carrying an unknown object, are fairly reasonable.

What I don't consider reasonable is aggressively attacking someone you don't know, breaking their nose, and almost killing them, based off of an emotion you experience. Martin had a screw loose it seems. I've felt scared or creeped out by people before, but I didn't break their nose.

Martin didn't have a screw loose, he's just a kid. What would you do if someone was stalking you, or if you were a girl. You might this guy might rape you and kill you. I live in a bad neighborhood and my friend has shot warning shots at people because they were tailing us and likely mug us, you think Martin wasn't afraid. He was afraid too of someone stalking him, potentially killing him. You really just don't care what Martin was thinking do you.

Anyways, the situation is stupid, Zimmerman is a coward, and he's incompetent, he can't fight and can't disable someone without killing them. This is why this fuck will never be a police officer or a officer of the peace. They have to be able to fight and disable someone without shooting them, because that's what you do when you don't want to kill someone.

I'm no longer going to discuss this with you. So send your comments to someone that wants to listen.

[ashlesha]

i haven't been following the case but all the arguments i see for zimmermans guilt seem to either ignore the attack altogether or assert that he was "asking for it." which i don't find very persuasive.

[ashlesha]

maybe people are riled up cuz its seen as like a symbol of innocent black kids being targeted and killed by cops and how horrible that is, but zimmerman isn't the patron demon of evil cops, he's just one dude.

[mu4]

It seems another intuitive not taking into account the details of the case.

I'm not talking about general streetfights or society or moral implications at all.

What I'm talking about, is that Martin could have potentially killed Zimmerman. You've done dumb stuff, right? You have friends who broke others' noses, right? This was MUCH more than a simple broken nose. Zimmerman was on his back, screaming for help 14 TIMES. He obviously didn't want to have to resolve this through force, but when you're having your skull bashed in repeatedly, it's sort of tough to think clearly. The use of force for Zimmerman to defend himself was justified.

If he's never been in a real fight before, then all the more reason for him to carry a gun to protect himself. That sort of defeats any argument you had for manslaughter. Zimmerman was looking out for society, and considering Martin's brutal attack on him, almost killing him and not stopping, (who stays within 18 inches of someone after you've broken their nose, and then push their head into the concrete?), Zimmerman did a great thing for society, as Martin could have used his anger that night to attack someone else.

Martin is the real 'murderer' if you can say that in this case, or at least a loose cannon. I've been 17 years old too. I've been impulsive, and I have done dumb things. I even got into a fight with a kid once in junior high, I will tell you, and I pushed his head into the ground. But I backed off then, almost going into a fist fight. I didn't break his nose or continue to smash his head. AND I knew the kid too. I don't fly off the handle to a complete stranger and almost kill them.

If you think Zimmerman did a good thing by killing a human being, then I really have no interest in ever talking to you. The situation was totally stupid, he did a very stupid thing. The fact he's not going to jail for it is merely luck. Anyways, you're now on ignore.

[mu4]

i haven't been following the case but all the arguments i see for zimmermans guilt seem to either ignore the attack altogether or assert that he was "asking for it." which i don't find very persuasive.

Unfortunately Trayvon is dead so that side of the story won't come out, but Zimmerman initiated the encounter and ignored police advice. It's hard to prove, but the jury could have gone the other way, which it does for many cases. Trayvon Martin defended himself as well but ultimately, he didn't stop when he should have and he was killed for it. The law let Zimmerman slide on the criminal charges, but the civil charges can still apply, as well as any social repercussions or libertarian justice that might occur.

I think the problem overall is that it seems Trayvon's life seems to be worth so little and the lives of many seem to be worth so little in the eyes of the law. I don't think race is the only issue, but class is also a issue. Note neighborhood watch rules generally prohibit carrying a gun while on watch, this is to protect the watch and the people being watched. Also neighborhood watch rules prohibit interacting with whoever is being watched.

The fact that he had a gun means he wasn't acting as a neighborhood watch but as a vigilante.

I think this is a much easier wrongful death suit, as he disregarded police advice and was carrying a gun during neighborhood watch. All wrongful death requires is negligence, which will be much easier to prove.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...hborhood-watch

[mu4]

If I was your boss and you were the janitor, and you messed with a hosting system and I had told you "We don't need you to touch the hosting system", and the server died, you would be fired. That's what negligence is, he might think he's helping the police but obviously he didn't, he created this situation by acting on his own, which is his prerogative, but he did so in a negligent fashion and resulted in someone dying.

Trayvon Martin had as much to walk those streets unmolested as Zimmerman, but because he fits a certain profile of people committing crimes in the neighborhood, this guy stopped him, precipitated a confrontation which lead to a death. This is why street cops carry badges and/or wear uniforms, otherwise it's just a possible mugging.

After dark when a man is following them and being suspicious, most people don't think neighborhood watch, they think mugger, rapist, stalker or killer.

Anyways, stop nitpicking. Let the law nitpick over that. Show you aren't a total tool and give a damn about human life.

[Absurd]

I don't see how is this a racially motivated, both are non-white. Looks like stand your ground is going to have to stand its ground in America.

[mu4]

Stop trying to win the argument, and start being less of a asshole. I don't think anyone will know the total circumstances or facts of the case, the law already made it's decision on that in a criminal case. Anyways I edited my post, you didn't even understood what I said. I was talking about a computer system not a wait person.

The facts of the case will never be fully known as someone is dead and the witnesses aren't really all that great. But the wrongful death will come and we will see what happens. The law will decide this as well.

Everything you write tells me you don't really care about this or Trayvon Martin's life and you just want to argue, it makes you look like a total tool. All you do is demonize this kid to rationalize why he's dead, it makes you scum. The law, society, some individuals will decide Zimmerman's fate, Trayvon is dead and the only people still screwing him in his grave is assholes like you demonize him.

I think I understand why Dolphin thinks the way she does about you, it's well warranted.

[Absurd]

Also, it's hard to argue racial tension when Zimmerman didn't say anything racist, but Martin called Zimmerman a "creepy ass cracker". If there were any racial hate, it actually favors the case that Zimmerman was defending himself from the racial hate of Martin.

...

[Animal]

So you feel empathetic towards him. But have you ever broken somebody's nose? Or push them on their back while beating the crap out of them on a dark, rainy, night? Was that a part of your teenage years?

Just curious, have you ever gotten your nose broken? Or gotten repeatedly knocked in your nose while on your back, with blood rushing down your throat, to where it's extremely difficult to breathe?

No, but neither have I been stalked and followed by a man with a gun talking about me to God-knows-who on the phone on a dark, rainy night; nor have I pursued someone who is not doing anything illegal on such a night. I can see many guys going on the defensive in such a situation out of shear fear and adrenaline. In any case, are you trying to tell me Martin was anything more than a teenage boy who was caught in a bizarre circumstance that didn't need to be instigated? Perhaps you mean that Martin had latent violent tendencies beyond what can reasonably be expected of someone in such a situation? If so, I think you need to get out more and meet more people. Intense anger and fear push people out beyond the norms of their natural behavioral repertoire.

At any rate, this is all beside the point. I purposefully have stopped just short of vilifying Zimmerman in my posts. I think he, too, was conditioned by circumstances and a preexisting inclination towards violence and paranoia that made him believe Martin was a threat and to create the circumstance that precipitate in his death. You're going to the opposite extreme of trying to vilify Martin.

This is just an awful, bizarre, unfortunate situation and it kind of skeeves me out that you would try to imply that it was anything more than that.

[mu4]

Hey, just think if it was this kid, he never would have been stopped in the street except by a paparazzi.

[Scapegrace]

It's beautiful.

On a related note, Casey Anthony is now pregnant with another child.

Thanks.


You believe everything you read on the internet? There really isn't any evidence that she's pregnant. We do know that she has a dog though (because the genius leaked her own vlog), which is disturbing enough.

Now let's be clear. I'm not comparing Zimmerman to Anthony. She's a whole other kind of crazy. Zimmerman is just a pussy douche bag who wanted to play superman in his *safe* neighborhood, bit off more than he could chew, and shot a kid because he's an idiot. There isn't any evidence to suggest that the actual shooting was racially motivated or anything else that people are boo-hooing about. I do think he should have been convicted of manslaughter though because he forced himself and Martin into that situation.


How funny was that craka girl though? Holy shit.


CREEPY. ASS. CRAKAH.


I'm pretty sure people just kept pretending they couldn't understand her just to hear her say it over and over.

[Scapegrace]

Marijuana wont make you beat the shit out of someone. Just sayin'.

[Animal]

Yes. I do think so. Martin made Zimmerman call for help 14 times in 38 seconds. Broke his nose and repeatedly assaulted him, after he cried out for help, staying on top of him and constantly pummeling him in the face. I think all of these things are a bit extreme. He doesn't seem 'afraid' or trying to get away at all, but rather very angry & violent.

So can drugs. Marijuana was found in Martin's system.

And it's basically a logical loophole. If you're arguing that it's ok for Martin to attack someone out of intense fear & anger, how can you condemn Zimmerman for shooting Martin out of intense fear? --- See, this is why you can't make subjective judgments in law. You CAN judge people based on their actions & on evidence.

I would agree with this. This is one of the more sensible arguments so far, imho. Like I said, if you wanted to make a case for manslaughter, I could understand that. You could say that Zimmerman should have been responsible for creating the situation. However, I ultimately disagree. --- one of the details you said was "followed by a man with a gun" --- this was not mentioned by Martin in his phone conversation with his friend, and very unlikely that he would have confronted someone with a gun. They were both walking through the night, and Martin acted out of his fear & anger to violently attack Zimmerman. Zimmerman knew the cops were coming and wasn't trying to hurt Martin, but just alert them for where he was.

It is an awful situation, and unfortunate that someone had to die. But I do believe that Martin is responsible for bringing about the circumstances leading to his death. Regardless what time of night it was, how rainy it was, what the dispatcher said, how their subjective emotions were, Martin chose to violently attack Zimmerman, put him into a situation where he likely had trouble breathing, because of coughing on his own blood, bashing his head against the cement unrelentingly. It was either shoot Martin to defend yourself or die. While Zimmerman's behavior is questionable, Martin gave him no choice. It was Martin's fault.

We have no idea who was screaming for help on the 911 call. Forensic analysis a few months ago suggests it may actually have been Martin who cried for help. Furthermore, have you even read what was presented to the court? Your narrative of Martin "repeatedly assault[ing] him, after he cried out for help, staying on top of him and constantly pummeling him in the face" is not consistent with the injuries sustained by Zimmerman according to the medical examiner who spoke in court this month: "In court on Tuesday, medical examiner Rao said Zimmerman's injuries did not involve great force and were consistent with one blow to the face and one impact with the concrete. He had a broken nose and two small cuts on the back of his head."

Now let's be clear. I'm not comparing Zimmerman to Anthony. She's a whole other kind of crazy. Zimmerman is just a pussy douche bag who wanted to play superman in his *safe* neighborhood, bit off more than he could chew, and shot a kid because he's an idiot. There isn't any evidence to suggest that the actual shooting was racially motivated or anything else that people are boo-hooing about. I do think he should have been convicted of manslaughter though because he forced himself and Martin into that situation.

^This, exactly this. Had this occurred in many other jurisdictions, Zimmerman would have been found guilty of manslaughter, which is what I believe happened that night.

[Animal]

I linked a lot of stuff on page 2 debating this with Kim. Even Martin's own father denied it was his son calling for help. Like, wtf. And I'd much rather believe first-hand witnesses who claimed the pummeling than some phony doctor brought in as a 3rd-party by the prosecution.

Yeah, it's gone back and forth. Later, Martin's father did say he thought the voice was Trayvon's upon hearing a cleaned-up version of the recording... which was then followed by a friend of Zimmerman stating that it was Zimmerman. We just don't know.

And this is what bothers me about what you did in that post there. You're contriving a narrative to paint Martin as ruthless and guilty as possible... and you're doing so out of a void of information. The reason Zimmerman was found not guilty on Saturday is not because it was proven that he was indeed acting out of self-defense; rather, it was because it couldn't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn't. There's a big difference. We simply don't know what happened. I don't think it's necessary to go any further than that. It's not necessary to transform a shooting victim into a bogeyman to absolve Zimmerman of murderous intent.

[rat1]

He's not a racist... if you knew anything about this case, you'd know he's not a racist. He sued a police department for beating up a black homeless man and won the case.... He went to the prom with a black girl....
He isn't guilty of murder or manslaughter, he's innocent. Defending yourself from someone who is beating the living shit out of you and has stated they are goiing to kill you is not manslaughter. I'm glad the jury was sane enough to agree.
This is actually an open and shut case. It's been turned into a racial issue by the media. It's really a media issue.

[Animal]

I flipped a coin three times today, and it landed tails twice. Lol. It's probably best for you to not read into my actions too much. I have Ni POLR. From my perspective, I was just pointing out facts which both Kim & hkkmr seemed to be drastically over-looking or blatantly ignoring. From the facts I know of the case, it gives me reason to believe that Martin was acting much more strongly out of anger than out of fear. I really don't know how to respond when you say I'm "transforming" him or 'painting' him or any of the societal implications. I was just going by the facts I know.

And I don't know all the real facts. So it's moot anyway.

I guess it's not that I care about being right in this case, as I can see both sides, and can agree that manslaughter could make sense. It just bothers me when I see someone draw a conclusion from something that is untrue. When they exaggerate or twist what really happened to fit their own viewpoint. Probably the reason why I can talk casually with you and not be annoyed, is because you made reference to the facts and even linked articles/evidence to support your case.

Or maybe because it's the evening now and closer to bedtime, and I'm calm after a big dinner.

Okay, fair enough. FWIW, I do think Zimmerman likely acted out of self-defense and that Martin was probably trying to bash him unconscious, although it doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman is a stupid, stupid man who placed himself in a context in which such self-defense was necessary and it precipitated in the death of a young man who was just going about his lawful business and posed no threat to anyone under everyday circumstances.

[silke]

And this is what bothers me about what you did in that post there. You're contriving a narrative to paint Martin as ruthless and guilty as possible... and you're doing so out of a void of information.

This is not much different from people who have been trying to paint Zimmerman as some kind of crazed vigilante or macho superman who has forced Martin into a deadly confrontation while depicting Martin as a poor, unlucky kid who was forced into a fight, who couldn't even turn his back, had no choice responding as he did, etc. The transcript from the conversation with the dispatcher shows that Martin did get away from Zimmerman and that Zimmerman has lost sight of him, and it is unknown what exactly made Martin re-approach and end up within such close proximity of Zimmerman that he could get into a physical fight with him:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: OK, we don’t need you to do that.
Zimmerman: OK.
...later ...
Dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah…..(unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It's a home. It's 1950 -- Oh, crap. I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: OK, do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine.

Some time later Martin ends up at a very close proximity of Zimmerman and enters into a physical confrontation. What exactly inspired Martin to turn around and re-approach Zimmerman will forever remain unknown, but as much as people have been trying to depict Zimmerman forcing this whole incident, I'm just not seeing it: how could Zimmerman force a fight on someone of whom he has lost sight?

If he DID know Zimmerman had a gun, he may have been afraid to turn his back on this man who had pursued him after he had tried running away and tried to disarm or incapacitate him by knocking him out. It is a bizarre situation to find oneself in.

Martin did get away from Zimmerman such that Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he has no idea "where the kid is", so Martin couldn't have been fighting merely to incapacitate Zimmerman and make him break off his pursuit. Martin has gotten away and he had a choice to stay away and continue on his trip to his father's girlfriend's place, but instead he chose to re-approach Zimmerman and enter into a fight with him, which then led to his own death. What motivated Martin to do so is unclear, but all of this is not consistent with the picture that some people have been trying to present, that Zimmerman has forced this whole encounter and Martin was merely reacting in self-defense.

[rat1]

But Trayvon Martin was not the aggressor - he was being stalked by an armed man in the dark who could have just NOT followed this kid.

It is not illegal to follow and watch someone who is walking on a road. That is public domain and Zimmerman is allowed to follow and watch him all he wants. That's what being on the neighborhood watch means - following and watching suspicious people. It is illegal, however, to physically engage somene, break their nose, pound their face into pavement, beat them senseless, and then reach for their gun in a self stated attempt to kill them. In the eyes of the law Martin was the aggressor, not Zimmerman.

Thank God people must make it through lawschool before becoming judges.

[Animal]

This is not much different from people who have been trying to paint Zimmerman as some kind of crazed vigilante or macho superman who has forced Martin into a deadly confrontation while depicting Martin as a poor, unlucky kid who was forced into a fight, who couldn't even turn his back, had no choice responding as he did, etc. The transcript from the conversation with the dispatcher shows that Martin did get away from Zimmerman and that Zimmerman has lost sight of him, and it is unknown what exactly made Martin re-approach and end up within such close proximity of Zimmerman that he could get into a physical fight with him:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: OK, we don’t need you to do that.
Zimmerman: OK.
...later ...
Dispatcher: OK, do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, yeah…..(unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It's a home. It's 1950 -- Oh, crap. I don't want to give it all out. I don't know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: OK, do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
Zimmerman: Yeah, that’s fine.

Some time later Martin ends up at a very close proximity of Zimmerman and enters into a physical confrontation. What exactly inspired Martin to turn around and re-approach Zimmerman will forever remain unknown, but as much as people have been trying to depict Zimmerman forcing this whole incident, I'm just not seeing it: how could Zimmerman force a fight on someone of whom he has lost sight?


Martin did get away from Zimmerman such that Zimmerman told the dispatcher that he has no idea "where the kid is", so Martin couldn't have been fighting merely to incapacitate Zimmerman and make him break off his pursuit. Martin has gotten away and he had a choice to stay away and continue on his trip to his father's girlfriend's place, but instead he chose to re-approach Zimmerman and enter into a fight with him, which then led to his own death. What motivated Martin to do so is unclear, but all of this is not consistent with the picture that some people have been trying to present, that Zimmerman has forced this whole encounter and Martin was merely reacting in self-defense.

I think that's a fair point. And if that is how things actually played out then Martin was guilty of assault and Zimmerman was justified in using force for self-defense (which, I think, ultimately was the case anyway). But do we know for sure that Martin re-approached Zimmerman and that they didn't simply encounter one another again coincidentally? There was a map of the neighborhood I saw a few weeks ago online that showed their respective trajectories that night with quotes from the 911 and girlfriend calls to mark the point at which they lost each other. I can't find it anymore, but basically, they both needed to head East when Zimmerman lost Martin. Zimmerman would have had to continue East, then make a right turn South to arrive at the location of the shooting. Zimmerman could have caught up with Martin from behind, or Martin could have turned south, then back west to confront Zimmerman at the shooting location. But, in either case, Zimmerman was apparently moving further east.

EDIT: Here are two similar graphics to the one I saw. Not as detailed, but it should give you an indication of what I mean. The first maps the possible trajectories they could have taken. The second follows Zimmerman's account. In both cases, Zimmerman continues in the direction Martin was headed. In the second scenario, Martin does turn right to accost Zimmerman at the location of the shooting.:







Zimmerman's brother has stated that Martin asked why he was following him. Reports from the scene describe a verbal argument erupting first, followed by a physical altercation, and then the gunshot.

[Scapegrace]

The back of his head didn't look that bad, frankly. Head wounds bleed a LOT. Consider the fact that there is no swelling. I'm seeing scrapes that indicate friction between his head and the concrete. His hair wasn't long enough at the time that Martin could have grabbed a fist full and used it as a sort of "handle." So he would have had to grasp Zimmerman's head between both of his hands and pound it on the pavement, which seems unreasonably awkward in a situation like that.


(Taken at the scene.)

I fell off the monkey bars in grade three and it bled a FUCK TON more than this. So would I shoot someone for this? No. Not unless I suddenly turned into a complete pussy.

See these tiny little cuts? My guess is that he was punching him in the face while his head was resting on the concrete sidewalk and that some pebbles causes those wee little lacerations. I don't believe that Martin was pounding his head into the pavement. If he had been his yells would have been far more distorted.

http://friendsofharvey.files.wordpre...d-med-shad.jpg

Did TM have GZ on the ground punching him? Sure, but the guy was stalking him around his own neighborhood like a fucking weirdo and he was seventeen. Seventeen year olds usually have "attitude" issues. You don't get to shoot them for it.

[Park]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1391650704386374

[Scapegrace]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1391650704386374

Well.... that was elaborate. *Snort*

[Aquagraph]

5 page thread already? Life of some random person isn't that important, but I guess you're having fun with the mystery case or something.

[Scapegrace]

5 page thread already? Life of some random person isn't that important, but I guess you're having fun with the mystery case or something.

The cat masturbater thread got longer faster.

[Park]

Life of some random person isn't that important

Tell us more about yourself.

[Absurd]

Hmm, I wonder whether Black Panthers didn't go apeshit yet and murdered a blue-eyed cat yet, ejaculating on it with their testosterone sex drive after.

[Finale]

Given the size and weight differences of the individuals I find it hard to believe shooting the boy was his only option scuffle or no scuffle. The kid was also unarmed if I recall correctly. I haven’t really followed the case much at all tbh… I was not on the jury and therefore couldn't say.

I was a cop shortly and from what I remember cops aren't trained to shoot unarmed teenagers....This is what the hand to hand combat training is for? Anyone seen "Cops?" there'd be so many shot people...

As it stands I disagree with the verdict from what I know.

Zimmerman was not a cop lol.... he was a neighborhood watch organizer on duty in what sounds like a crime-ridden neighborhood. He had already called the police preceding the event that night and reported that Trayvon was doing suspicious things, and looked like he was up to no good. Zimmerman was doing his job.


And there were witnesses to the incident, one who called 911 while the attack was taking place.

Seriously, if someone attacked me and was beating my head against the concrete and I had a gun, I would shoot them. It doesn't matter what race they are. People have a right to defend themselves with weapons if they are being attacked.

Zimmerman was a mix of white and hispanic.

[ashlesha]

5 page thread already? Life of some random person isn't that important, but I guess you're having fun with the mystery case or something.

it isn't just some random person now. its a symbol. a symbol of racism or a symbol of today's youth or whatever anybody wants to project on him based on their own opinion about what happened. its gross. people feel so self righteous for caring about his death, but they don't care about him personally. they only care about what he represents to them. when a case like this gets blown up it sucks the actual humanity out of it. hypocrisy.

i only started paying attention once i read this thread and now i wish i hadn't. because the articles i've been coming across this morning have been disgusting. some random famous dude in the news for saying, "I can’t look an African-American parent in the eye for thinking about what they must tell their sons about what can happen to them on the streets of their country." fucking really? like some black parent standing in line at subway is gonna look at him and give a shit. like he's actually gonna fix anything by averting his eyes. people get to feel oh-so-important by injecting themselves into the story. its masturbatory. and i guess i'm doing it too right now but i'm not sanctimoniously pretending to grieve while i do it. jizzing all over that boy's dead body. its sick.

[Absurd]

Is there a reason you're posting pictures of the back of his head, and not his broken nose?

Yeah, this is suspicious...

Looks like scapegrace favours head injuries more than broken noses. Ehhh, Gammas...

it isn't just some random person now. its a symbol. a symbol of racism or a symbol of today's youth or whatever anybody wants to project on him based on their own opinion about what happened. its gross. people feel so self righteous for caring about his death, but they don't care about him personally. they only care about what he represents to them. when a case like this gets blown up it sucks the actual humanity out of it. hypocrisy.

The only racism I see is African American on Peruvian just by reading stuff and watching news reports on it and vice versa (depending on your interpretation of course), and yes, I agree. Media did blow it out of proportion, for it seems Martin suffered from temporary blindness and can't be held accountable for his deeds nor his death...

[FoxOnStilts]

Not guilty. There wasn't enough to convince anyone beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Kim]

it isn't just some random person now. its a symbol. a symbol of racism or a symbol of today's youth or whatever anybody wants to project on him based on their own opinion about what happened. its gross. people feel so self righteous for caring about his death, but they don't care about him personally. they only care about what he represents to them. when a case like this gets blown up it sucks the actual humanity out of it. hypocrisy.

i only started paying attention once i read this thread and now i wish i hadn't. because the articles i've been coming across this morning have been disgusting. some random famous dude in the news for saying, "I can’t look an African-American parent in the eye for thinking about what they must tell their sons about what can happen to them on the streets of their country." fucking really? like some black parent standing in line at subway is gonna look at him and give a shit. like he's actually gonna fix anything by averting his eyes. people get to feel oh-so-important by injecting themselves into the story. its masturbatory. and i guess i'm doing it too right now but i'm not sanctimoniously pretending to grieve while i do it. jizzing all over that boy's dead body. its sick.

It's not as much a symbol as a very blatant and tragic reminder that young African males are extremely vulnerable because they are constantly profiled and constantly treated differently than white males (latino males, Asian males, etc.).

Living with an African American man for over six years has been sadly eye-opening. We lived in a college town for part of the time- the white frat boys got away with everything. Our black friends didn't get away with shit. My boyfriend never got away with anything in Florida. He was stopped for made-up reasons, arrested, car impounded, lots of breaking the law on part of the cop, total disrespect. Never in my life have I been treated like that. I never got as many dirty looks. My African American professor got stopped while jogging in his upscale neighborhood because a burglar was on the loose and although the cops didn't know what he looked like, they pounced on the first African American male. And this is not just anecdotal. It is part of raising an African American boy to tell him to be very careful around police and other law enforcement. What it is like to grow up as an African American male is nothing we can even remotely comprehend - that's our white privilege.

This is an interesting read (even if you think Zimmerman was justified, do read to the end to get a picture of why Trayvon Martin's death was so personal for many people):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...lack-children/

[Absurd]

Cool...

[ashlesha]

It's not as much a symbol as a very blatant and tragic reminder that young African males are extremely vulnerable because they are constantly profiled and constantly treated differently than white males (latino males, Asian males, etc.).

Living with an African American man for over six years has been sadly eye-opening. We lived in a college town for part of the time- the white frat boys got away with everything. Our black friends didn't get away with shit. My boyfriend never got away with anything in Florida. He was stopped for made-up reasons, arrested, car impounded, lots of breaking the law on part of the cop, total disrespect. Never in my life have I been treated like that. I never got as many dirty looks. My African American professor got stopped while jogging in his upscale neighborhood because a burglar was on the loose and although the cops didn't know what he looked like, they pounced on the first African American male. And this is not just anecdotal. It is part of raising an African American boy to tell him to be very careful around police and other law enforcement. What it is like to grow up as an African American male is nothing we can even remotely comprehend - that's our white privilege.

This is an interesting read (even if you think Zimmerman was justified, do read to the end to get a picture of why Trayvon Martin's death was so personal for many people):

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...lack-children/

now george zimmerman will be branded a racist and scorned for the rest of his life even though prior to the case he was demonstratably not racist at all. because he's not a real person anymore, just a "reminder."