Telling apart ISTj from ESTj
I seriously sometimes can't tell an ESTJ from an ISTJ...
If the ESTJ is really unhappy, quiet, stressed, they seem similar to ISTJ to me...and I can't tell them apart at all.
Some ISTJs are SO outgoing and loud, and some ESTJs are quiet...I'm utterly confused.
All the usual clues have failed me...such as trying to tell if they want Fe, etc.
How can I distinguish these two types more easily?
Thanks!
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
You mean in terms of external behavior?
I think one way is this -- the ISTj will appear more solid, even tense, even when quiet; the ESTj will appear more relaxed, even when much more active.
The ISTj is the one who seems to hide an inner inclination to kick the ass of someone who annoys him; the ESTj far less so.
Obviously I don't mean it in terms of physical size or strength.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
I'm actually wondering if my office manager could be ESTj instead of ISTj. We don't work closely together, but I still wonder how we'd get along so well if she were ISTj. I don't think I know any ESTjs to really compare attitudes with. She seems to like Fe - acknowledges the importance of welcoming people to the office, responds well if I'm in a bouncy mood, and is pretty socially aware, but she dislikes pretentiousness. She's hardworking, quite organized, but does procrastinate on things she's never done before...loves routine, hates being forced to do 'creative' type stuff like marketing and graphics. Likes it when there's no one in the office so she can concentrate on getting stuff done.
She'll talk about how everything has to be in its place before she goes to bed at night, and it drives her ISTp husband nuts. She flipped out at her son b/c he threw all his toys into the closet instead of the box when one of his friends was over last weekend.
She's good friends with the INFj at our office, but she also got along well with one of the ENFjs and the INFp. Friendship-wise, she's closer to the INFj, though. They seem to be comfortable joking around about just about anything. But they are much closer in age than any of the other people here, too.
She appears to have the most conflict with the INTj... she thinks he's impractical and refuses to take the shortest path to a goal. One particular instance is that he refuses to buy new computers for the office despite the fact that we're wasting productivity and money on outdated technology. But I think she finds him 'backwards' for just about everything else too.
Overall she appears calm and cheerful.. does not like it when the INFj is grumpy b/c it brings her mood down. She's griped him out for it once: 'You might be grumpy, but do you need to mess up my day too?' More Fe valuing? I can't say that I like it either when he's grumpy, though, 'cause it does make you walk on pins and needles sometimes...
I wouldn't describe her as tense, though. She will confront someone if they're doing something she doesn't like, but she doesn't do it too often. It seems to be with people she is familiar with (like the INFj and INTj) or with people outside the office, such as when the trash people didn't collect the dumpster for 3 weeks.
I've known two other female ISTjs, and they seem to focus on me in a way that says, "Spit it out already!" and talking to them has been more similar to the descriptions of conflict.. I'll say something and instantly think, "Oh, that was the wrong thing to say." ...*says something else* "God, I did it AGAIN. How the heck did that happen??" I can't say this ever happens with her.
Something I learned recently that makes me think maybe she's not ISTj is that she describes her mother as being a drama queen. She describes herself as being laid-back (and anal-retentive on the cleaning, bill paying, etc hehe) I don't know what type her mom is, but they definitely don't get along, and her parent's marriage was very conflict-ridden until they divorced. Are there any types an ISTj would describe as a 'drama queen'?
I guess maybe it's possible that after 18 years living with an ISTp she's changed a bit. She does say that he's changed her... she says she used to be a lot more touchy-feely and now isn't at all. Ehn, I don't know. Can't say that I care too much either, 'cause we get along, and that's good enough for me
If anyone has any opinions, throw 'em out
For some reason I have no problems telling ESTj from ISTj. ESFj from ESTj can be harder especially if they are Si sub and/or males. This must be a great advice.
The exact opposite of this is at least as close to the truth.
In a social situation the ISTj will take charge even when they have no cause and try to dominate people.
The ESTj will wait for a seemingly appropriate time, say their piece and get the fuck out.
The ESTj is more likely to show they want to kick your ass, but they will rarely do it, they growl but they don't bite much. The ISTj is more likely to actually kick your ass, but they'll appear almost happy when doing this and be proud of this achievement. They'll surprise you with this.
The ESTj is more likely to be met when under a great deal of stress, when he's actually relaxed, he'll be sleeping in his bed. The ISTj is collected and seemingly in his own area of comfort even under the most stressful conditions.
The thing that is causing Jewels problems is the difference between Extrovert temperament-negative-judicious and between introvert temperament-positive-resolute. As I remember Jewels being an ENFp I suggest comparing herself to an INFp and seeing how these two might also be mixed up for similar reasons. This might help in understanding the difference. Or if she's observing US politics, observing the differences between Hillary and McCain would be a nice opportunity to show differences between these two types.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Yeah, I think ISTJs seem really intense and ESTJs seem a bit more kicked back and sporty.
An ISTJ i know always seems "on." His speech and mannerisms are really controlled and succinct all the time. He moves exactly like a Swiss Air steward. His general demeanor exudes so much control and authority that it practically extraverts him.
ESTJs seem to vary their attitude and energy more. My ESTJ uncle is really blase and indifferent to certain things. He'll just shrug and be like "who the *** cares about that?!" But there are very specific things that really set him off. And he is NOT terse at all. It's like constant blabbing, and I wonder if he knows/cares if people are listening? It's like he's practically talking to himself. Maybe this "living in his own head" vibe can make him seem more introverted? Generally, this makes ESTJs strike me as a bit laughable, whereas I can't imagine ISTJs giving off a "ridiculuos" impression.
EII; E6(w5)
i am flakey
How to tell ESTj from ISTj and vice-versa
Since both are XSTJ, theyīre similar.
Iīm quite confident Iīm ESTJ but sometimes I wonder. How to really tell one of these types from the other when I type other people. Both seem to march while walking. Both are rigid - at least in their more serious part of their lives. Both are kind of organized.
So far the only difference I can see is an ESTJ has a shortest margin of tolerance to getting very upset and having an outburst, while ISTJ is more controlled in his emotions hardest to lose temper.
I thought so. But then I saw discojoe.
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
In Soviet Lithuania, discojoe sees you.
One talks about economy, the other doesn't.
He must see nothing then.
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
1.) Type the xSTj's friends. If he has many Beta friends he is ISTj, if there are many Delta friends he is ESTj. That's the most reliable method...
2.) Decide if you like him. If your self-typing is correct you will like almost every ESTj and dislike almost every ISTj. That should be easy...
3.) Compare the xSTj to ISTjs and ESTjs that have already been typed. Good examples as far as I can judge it: Colonel O'Neill from Star Gate SG1 is ESTj. The Doctor from Star Trek Voyager is ISTj. They are not too similar, are they...?
ISTjs are ISTjs, ESTjs are usually ESTjs.
good point.
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
Well first I think Discojoe might be ESTJ, because he does not look like the typical ISTJs that I know really, but then, there are lots of factors and that is only an opinion.
Second, the two types are usually so similar that Betas constantly mistake me for one of them. Yesterday I was in a class and then came two Betas, two ESTPs as far as I could tell, as usual they come in the classroom still talking neverminding the unimportant professor which is giving his class, who often pauses for them to realize their tactless behavior and shut up. Then they came to where I was sitting and sat as usual next to me, one in front of me and the other by my side. I was a bit disgusted by their steroid-built bodies and tattoos as usual also, but they seem to mistake me for ISTJ or to someone who they can talk to and like, and they started asking me friendly questions about what was being said in that class. I was a bit cold with them but gave the information. This makes me feel somewhat confused as to my type. In my university I made friends with Deltas, mostly because I tend to ignore the Betas or just talk to them when they come but not cherish the acquaintance.
itīs not that Iīm reppelled by betas or anything... ISTJs simply donīt talk to me because they usually donīt talk to anyone, they just sit there with their nazi posture and watch the class with that nazi coldness then go away. but ESTPs come talk to me often but then I think this is maybe just one of their traits, theyīre more relaxed and communicative. Although in my law course, men hang out with men and women with women, so during intervals and stuff itīs men to their groups and women to theirs... and I find it a bit annoying to attract so many ESTPs... especially since you never really know whether theyīre talking to you just for friendship or if theyīre gay, LOLOL
but at the end of the day, chilled ESTPs tend to be nice fellows and buddies, I just dislike their tastes regarding tattoos, bodybuilding and etc, but we have things in common I guess the ESTx is a big factor, itīs like a domineering type of male, and extraverted, so perhaps they mistake me for one of them.
The ESTjs I know tend to be a lot more sociable and easy going compared to ISTjs from a glance. The ones I know always have these huge smiles on their faces and they always seem to be wanting to do something- some kind of concrete activity such as hitting the bars, going to the golfing range, hanging out with large groups of people. I feel like when I don't want to go anywhere and just want "to chill" ESTjs look at that like it's a waste of time or something, since we're not really "doing anything."
I also think ISTjs tend to be a little more serious and firm when it comes to displaying their beliefs.
Last edited by Computer Loser; 08-18-2010 at 04:08 AM.
No
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
ISTjs are dicks and ESTjs aren't dicks.
Either you state the reason of your opinions or you just shut up. Iīm tired of your arrogance.
I donīt think ISTJs are dicks, they just seem childish in a strange way to me. Like they are mature and self-disciplined but at the same time they have this need for being seen as powerful and stuff and this seems childish. ESTPs are much more easygoing and open. ESTPs are gregarious and expansive like myself, but a big ogrish, but itīs ok. ISTJs can come across as arrogant. Am I wrong?
Haha, I was just joking
Most of the ISTjs I've known in my life have actually been nice people. They were only argumentative when they felt a need to be, which wasn't all that often. The problem I have with them is, naturally, the whole idea of conflictors being relatively incapable of communicating their ideas effectively between each other. For example, I had two ISTj teachers in high school. They were both nice people and I could have nice conversations with them, but when it came to deeper discussion we were just far and away too different. To me it felt like they were trying to force me to think their way and make the exact same connections they had. It was as if they see such connections as objectively true when I saw such thought as superfluous and terribly restricting.
As for ESTps, all that I've met but one have been very personable and nice people. You make a good point that they are very sociable people, because that sorta matches up with my observations (aside for that one exception, but nobody really liked her). I find that ESTps in general are very upfront with their intentions when it comes to people: how they present themselves is more or less how they really are, and if they fear they're being misunderstood they're quick to try to rectify the problem.
I have already done so, repeatedly, in previous threads you have created on similar subjects, in which, I'm gathering, is impervious to you, hence these consent projections you continue to make of SeTi values onto TeSi
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
You tried to sound intellectual but couldnīt.
Your reasons are poorly stated and fundamented. You give little back up for what you say. As you said yourself, 'what others think donīt hold much weight for me'. So youīre basically a person with a singular understanding of socionics, and will remain so because youīre dumb and you think youīre smart.
Pinocchio or Pied Piper or whatever, why donīt you fundament what you write with socionics theory. I agree with most of what you say. Basically because Ti is 'colder' than Te, so there you have the difference. And this is why ESTJs are hated and famous for their outbursts of violence or just letting their rage out much easier than ISTJs.
Marieīs opinion contradicts everything Iīve read so far about these two types, LOL.
This reeks of TiSe, I have very little doubt of Beta ST now, thank you for clearing that up
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
Lovin' you, is easy 'cause you're beautiful. Doot dootn de dooo. Aaaaaahhhhh.
Marie, can you elaborate on why do you think Iīm TiSe?
*
Iīm LSI now... itīs cool to be ENFJ femaleīs dual. theyīre usually hot.
May the power of the universe flow through my beta ego now!
I posted a brief response to this in a past thread, that I did a search for, where you, basically, described qualities which you thought to be common for LSE in which I feel are very much more related to SeTi's -> http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/665082-post78.html
Not to say that I believe all Betas are provocative or intentionally instigators of such, but you do come across that way, rather crude, in your face, and uncompromising about it. I get the impression that you'd feel more comfortable not being in an+
environment
And than statements like this, which point out poor Ti, and rubbing it in so commandingly, are very much characteristics of Ti+Se. If you were to say this to an IEE, it would be a major PoLR hit
fwiw, LSE is one of the types I would least expect to gravitate to a site like this, I'm surprised we even have RyuYou tried to sound intellectual but couldnīt.
Your reasons are poorly stated and fundamented. You give little back up for what you say. As you said yourself, 'what others think donīt hold much weight for me'. So youīre basically a person with a singular understanding of socionics, and will remain so because youīre dumb and you think youīre smart.
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
reading your post again Iīm kind of interested in this possibility.
yes, any Se hit from me would blow away an EII since sheīs Se-POLR
and observing myself these past days, especially not myself but how others see me, I have come to the conclusion that at least my movements, my way of moving my body, is somewhat intimidating to people! I didnīt fucking notice it much... especially the way I walk, and my moves that tend to be very sudden for example when sitting I get up in an instant, very quick, and I walk like Iīm marching, most of the time - long, firm and regular paces. I didnīt know people got scared of this. This is fucking ridiculous. People getting scared of me for just being serious and somewhat brusque in my movements.
but then thereīs the Si issue, I see a lot of Si in me too, so this is where my doubt stands.
but I decided to wear the ISTJ gloves to see if they fit me, for some time.
but I still think ESTJs can be somewhat intimidating without even noticing like ISTJs... and perhaps more so because of the Extraversion.
Airborn describe Ti please and give me two examples of when you used it. You're a care taker and cuddler dear and remember the question about personal and sentimental matters that TiSe don't like to discuss...humm...
EII, like myself, prefer men who take control of immediate situations, and are somewhat demanding; almost everywhere where there's a description of LSE, you will see that they are "controlling"; Marie's post contradicts the logic that EII don't like demanding and controlling because LSE are naturally that way, you can see this in Delta love thread where a good description of LSE is given; we, EII, naturally submit to our dual's controlling and demanding nature because Te just naturally can do things the right way that we can't. These things especially include FINANCES; SEE on the other hand, don't like control and particularly don't like or can't have their Finances controlled by others.
Please read this post on how LSE are like
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/677177-post91.html
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-20-2010 at 05:33 AM.
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Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Share your reasoning please (I'm genuinely curious, not trying to be combative).Airborne, you aren't ISTj. Just stop.
What type is Janeway? I've seen the actress typed ESI, but I think the character maybe possibly LIE, with Chakotay as her introverted ethical dual or semi-dual. I got an NT impression watching her anyway.
Youīre right Ashton, but Iīm playing with my type, because some people on this forum seem incapable of accepting that I may be ESTj.
I dunno what the hell is wrong with being an ESTj, whether people admire or hate ESTjs, itīs probably one of these extremes, because if they admire ESTjs and donīt admire me, then I canīt be an ESTj - on the other hand, if they hate ESTjs but they kind of like me, then I canīt be an ESTj too. Itīs just bullshited biased reasoning.
I am not glad to be ESTj, Iīd rather be a nice beta ST. ESTJ sucks bad, in my opinion. It has not got the physical force of beta STs and Se-types, but it has willpower and a commanding nature. ESTJ is like a gay beta ST.
LSEs are loud bastards. LSIs are silent bastards. Therefore I prefer the 2nd one.
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
lol Pied Piper , now any Logical type with a sense of humor is SLE?
I donīt play with people in real life, I donīt like to do it, but having Te [this is my guess] gives me somewhat of a ability to be manipulative and controlling of people, which btw is in tune with LSE, since LSE is 'the administrator' he has to control all the resources at hand including people.
I donīt consider SLE seriously, because Iīm too stiff and rigid in real life, I donīt talk during classes when the teacher is speaking [something SLEs often do], I get annoyed by such unpolite behavior and I have that xSTJ military way of walking, I march, I donīt walk, even in relaxed situations. This all points to xSTJ if you know descriptions of these two types.
And I really donīt think I havein ego block, I know people who do, theyīre kind of different in a sense, and I see lots of
Anyway you can think what you want, thereīs Heavy calling me ESFj, thereīs a bunch of ppl who think Iīm ESTp like you do, and thereīs a bunch who think Iīm ISTj, I have no intention of convincing anyone or stopping them.
After all, life is much more serious than discussions in an internet forum, I have other problems more real and concrete than 'virtual' things which are barely real.
I've got Airborne as ESFj. At first I thought he was an ESTj, but his earlier days struck me as too Jekyll and Hydish. He also has a much softer underbelly than the more macho ESTj or ISTj type could hope to pull off. He has overcliched ideas on LSE control, Beta STs, and the way that LSEs view themselves. And he orders the details in his stories so sequentially for effect it's ridiculously ESFj....and he lacks the "jock terseness" or technical refinement to cover either subtype of LSE...it's also true that Te can be more biased and emotional in their opinions, but they make more efforts to atleast sound objective and process-oriented (he varies though, I think he's close between F and T)...Airborne has also claimed he's much different in person, and ime LSE and LIE are the two types that act pretty similar online and in person.
As far as I'm concerned, AB's response to Maritsa is also a nail in the coffin for the LSE litmus test. There's no doubt he likes to play Maritsa's dual. It's a feeling-role he embraced partly to overplay his self-typing LSE, and partly because he was responding to Maritsa's inaccurate information. The irony is Maritsa isn't even an INFj and any LSE, or frankly SLE, would be repelled by her forthright attempts to manage people emotionally. Smilingeyes didn't waste any time telling her to take a hike.
I don't doubt he gets a lot of sex and manipulates people...but I know more about Airborne's personal life reading his posts than I know about most LSI, LSE, and SLEs who I've known for years. I'm certain he's ESFj.
And if the triangular rapport between Airborne, Pied Piper
Last edited by tire iron; 08-23-2010 at 08:36 AM.
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