Gamma derail

[Adam Strange]

I'm looking for an ESI, and I may have found one working as a contact person at an entrepreneurial center. She is attractive, nearly within the eight-year age difference that I have set for myself, tall and slender, and probably single. She has long legs which put her about three or four inches above me, but she wears flats and so might be trying to minimize this feature.

To see if she is really an ESI, I made up some excuses to talk with her. I asked her if she could show me how I could make coffee, and I liked her walk (not ESI related) and she kind of scrunched up to be shorter and she went through the demonstration so fast that I had to ask her to repeat it. (I was distracted by her ring with a blue stone on it, not on her ring finger.)

I later asked her if she knew of any places nearby where I could get a late lunch, and while she told me, she held up her left hand, fingers extended with palm facing her, and rubbed the back of her hand with her right hand. So, she somehow knows I'm looking, and is a sensor. (I purposely avoided looking straight at her fingers - I already knew she didn't have a ring on her ring finger. In any case, some married women don't wear rings.)

When I returned from lunch with some leftovers, I asked her if anyone could put food in the refrigerator, and she said Yes.

Near the end of the day, I approached her to ask if she thought my car was parked in a spot where I would get a ticket (it was two-hour parking, I'd been there longer - the sign didn't say THIS MEANS YOU) and while normally she has the very direct gaze of an aggressor, she kept her eyes on her desk as I approached so I would have to work to start the conversation. And when I told her I had called the center earlier and just got a recording, she gave me her business card with her direct number on it.

So, she's a sensor and an aggressor who won't directly initiate.

For my part, I'm not sure of my interest in her. I need to know more about her. I'm a bit older than her and she's taller than me, and she might reject me for those things. I'm not sure how smart she is, although she writes the center's contracts. I'm thinking far ahead, and wondering if starting a relationship that ends would be too emotionally damaging. I need to know more about her.
I think this is a classic description (from Erotic Attitudes) of Victim behavior. Lol.

And so, Dear Reader, you just got an open window into an LIE's thinking when approaching a potential relationship with an ESI.

[Bertrand]

this is %100 Si and she probably thinks you're a creep

[Adam Strange]

this is %100 Si and she probably thinks you're a creep

Lol. We'll see.

[Bertrand]

yeah i guess it depends on how accurately you've assessed her vulnerability. if its high enough you might have a shot, youre still a scumbag though

[Adam Strange]

yeah i guess it depends on how accurately you've assessed her vulnerability. if its high enough you might have a shot, youre still a scumbag though

Well, her degree of emotional vulnerability is a concern to me. As I mentioned, I'm not into starting something that will end badly. I'm guessing her age is just over 40, so she's not an innocent or naive. But anyone can be hurt.

From what I gather from what I have read and from my own personal experiences, ESI's want a deep emotional connection. They can sometimes jump into something blindly without having thought out the consequences, and then their inherent loyalty and faithfulness causes them to stick with a bad situation long after they should have ended it. I see it as my responsibility to not raise expectations beyond what I can fulfill.

So I need to know more about her.

And of course, creepiness is in the eye of the beholder.

[ashlesha]

"she gave me her business card. She totally wants the d"

[Bertrand]

you know it used to be LIEs actually posted useful information, not journal entries that sound like they're from a teenager but actually an old man. the fact that you post a video clip of two high school girls is kind of telling where your mind is at

there is literally zero redeeming quality to your posts here and you should stop because you make LIE look like a shithead and make duality seem fucked up in general, which is decidedly not the message of socionics

im not posting this to attack you per se, but for anyone reading this who is thinking about LIE or socionics in general and thinks Adam's self appointed role as LIE is anything other than delusional and we actually recognize that here, despite how it may seem at times. he hasn't found acceptance here, this isn't what this place stands for. please, we need more sane people

this is what happens when all the gammas leave and some mental patient sees an opening

[Adam Strange]

you know it used to be LIEs actually posted useful information, not journal entries that sound like they're from a teenager but actually an old man. the fact that you post a video clip of two high school girls is kind of telling where your mind is at

there is literally zero redeeming quality to your posts here and you should stop because you make LIE look like a shithead and make duality seem fucked up in general, which is decidedly not the message of socionics

im not posting this to attack you per se, but for anyone reading this who is thinking about LIE or socionics in general and thinks Adam's self appointed role as LIE is anything other than delusional and we actually recognize that here, despite how it may seem at times. he hasn't found acceptance here, this isn't what this place stands for. please, we need more sane people

this is what happens when all the gammas leave and some mental patient sees an opening

Actually, I found that video from something @lungs said, and I thought it was incredibly perceptive. I had seen the movie but missed the significance of that scene.

Also, I think my writing style is subconsciously oriented toward ESI's, who want the facts but don't want someone else's interpretation of them. So I leave the interpretations for others. Not that I don't form conclusions myself. I do. Lol.

[Bertrand]

way to miss the point

Also, I think my writing style is subconsciously oriented toward ESI's, who want the facts but don't want someone else's interpretation of them. So I leave the interpretations for others.

also this is the exact opposite of Ni HA. but I agree your ability to craft cogent interpretations another person might be interested in is awful (Ni creative)

anyway the beauty of Ni polr is you set yourself up time and time again, so by all means, keep going, you're just making my points for me

[Olimpia]

This discussion is just turning into a personal crusade against Adam.

[Bertrand]

its a personal crusade against useless and misleading information, which you're often on the wrong side of too, which is why you feel the need to defend your boyfriend

[Olimpia]

Apparently you are still upset that I've suggested you could be ESI.

[ashlesha]

His writing is subconsciously oriented towards us, so we're not actually as critical as it looks - unless we're so mentally ill that we can't appreciate it and we can just be written off as psycho anyway.

[Olimpia]

Looks like this is gonna end in some other derail... If it does, I hope someone actually takes the time to create a new thread for this.

Or how about a mod creates a new thread for this already.

[Bertrand]

lol why dont you just fuck off if that's your concern, you cant throw fuel on the fire then claim the moral high ground when the thread goes off the rails

all of this is a very telling portrayal of psychological perspectives anyway, its far from useless, and its probably the most gamma thing to happen in this subforum in months (years?) anyway

if you dont like it feel free to steer clear

by the way, there is some duality here, for those who are paying attention

[Minde]

This discussion is just turning into a personal crusade against Adam.

Yeah... It's getting a little much, guys. If it's just a crusade against misinformation, then personal attacks like "scumbag" and "mental patient" are unnecessary. Also, hyperbole like "boyfriend" weakens the arguments.

[ashlesha]

A spade is a spade ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

[Minde]

A spade is a spade ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

It gets a little, uh, weird when someone carries a spade with them everywhere, telling everyone who looks at it that "this is a spade!"

[Bertrand]

I don't think its any surprise EII "understands" Adam more than ESI

its like oh man, let's not get too rough guys, the diary of a man planning the conquests of his workers is no big deal, but that language oh my!

take it all over to delta quadra

but hey, its okay, I'll clinically deconstruct every post from now without any strong language... because honestly it is such a trivial element I'm not attached to it, and don't need to focus on it to the exclusion of substance like delta NF

[ashlesha]

Count your blessings he doesn't type you esi.

[ashlesha]

Cancer doesn't deserve the abrasiveness of chemo lol

[Bertrand]

this is from the quadra that gave us prisons better than hotels and spa

sorry about the Se in the gamma subforum... I mean that's what this comes down to. Would I go into delta and say, "wow this Si is a bit much guys have you considered growing some balls?--it really weakens your case to be so passive about everything, its almost like you lack the courage of your convictions" *smug empathetic condescending look of concern*

look at Adam weakly "like" this total distraction of a defense from the shadows, because he can't justify himself on any other grounds

anyway, if hes so comfortable there, he should go live there. a real gamma would neither be offended nor unable to hold their own

[ashlesha]

look at Adam weakly "like" this total distraction of a defense from the shadows, because he can't justify himself on any other grounds

He has to come up with a good *smug empathetic condescending look of concern* first so that the good guy/villain dynamic isn't disturbed.

[Bertrand]

wow its almost like the delta calling card, weird

[Minde]

Holy cow, you two. By all means make a fuss, lol. I'm allowed my opinions same as you. I think you're going overboard and losing your effectiveness; you think I'm milquetoast. Cool.

If I really wanted to avoid trouble I wouldn't have said anything. I figured this'd make me a target. Fire away if you want. I've interjected my piece. *smug unempathetic condescending look of mildly amused nonchalance*



Aside, IME, LSEs are more likely to strongly jump to someone's defense / enter the fray than LIEs. ESEs also tend to be more passive. EIEs can be brutal in their defense, heh. I wonder what that Ej dichotomy might be... I'm too lazy to look it up.

[Singu]

Oh please, will Bertrand get over himself already. Your rambling posts are far more psychotic than the vast majority of posts on this forum.

I feel like a lot of people take out their anger out on Adam, only because he doesn't bite back. There are a lot of creeps on this forum, but at best they're ignored and left alone. Adam is attacked because he's not a real creep. I don't know what goes on between lungs and Adam, but whatever.

[FDG]

For the record, I know a number of ESIs who dislike me, my communication style, my interests, my whole being seems to be completely repulsive to them.

[ashlesha]

For the record, I know a number of ESIs who dislike me, my communication style, my interests, my whole being seems to be completely repulsive to them.

You should try pulling them aside and asking them to email you a tape recording of their voice that you could listen to at your leisure. I'm sure that would get them to warm right up.

[Bertrand]

everyone is going to run into duals that do or do not like them, that is not what this is about and any attempt to make LIE defined by being inherently disliked by ESI is just a stain on this forum as a piece of (dis)information and is the worst kind of typological rationalization that makes places turn into worthless dumps of empty categorization and anti-development

also if singularity is defending you thats the best argument I've seen that something is amiss, which is funny because he seems to be driven to nihilistic rage by the supposed knowledge that typology is not helpful and incredibly limited and then goes onto to promote the exact behavior and ideas that make it so

T e p o l r
e
p
o
l
r

I don't "take my anger out on Adam" I held off on calling him out for as long as I could. And the idea that I picked him cause he doesn't fight back is laughable because first of all: 1)he does, he just sucks at it, so this is merely just an attempt to spin a weak defense into some smug moral high ground and 2) not seeing him as the aggressor in the first place is the real problem, its an Si valuing thing where an "unhappy peace is better than a conflict" except that it never solves problems, he promotes the straight up wrong image of LIE and socionics in general... which I know is lost on other TIM but I can see how this is delegitimizing socionics in general, and it seems to me the only reason people don't see him as a "creep" is because they're content to cordon him off as a "gamma quadra" thing and as long as thats the case he provides more good than harm to them because of their fucked up view of what socionics exists to do (gamma as money grubbing whores)--adam is just a useful idiot, that if he had a shred of self awareness and dignity would be refused to be used in such a way, but hes too damn simple to see it--so he's just like "haha guys, I'm your dopey stereotype, everyone likes me right??" guess what, that's not people liking you

let him adopt the label of EIE or LSE and go into beta or delta forums and make the exact same posts and see how that goes over: hint the negative reaction is not because the type would be factually inaccurate (in case of LSE it might not be), but because of how it reflects on the ecology of this place, people don't even know how to type to begin with so he could be literally anything, misinformation on that level has never been enough to bother people. the idea that hes this passive creature that exists to be scapegoated by me is pure projection because if he was passive he would be beneath notice, for one (i dont need to operate by scapegoating, im not beta). hes creating waves on a level others just dont care to understand because they get more jollies from defending a suposed victim because the crime is directed at other people. which is a lot like what people do when they put more emphasis on criminals than the families of the victims, its actually a kind of moral selfishness wherein they don't give a fuck about anything but their own self righteousness, inasmuch as adam provides an opening for people to express those methods of self aggrandizement we can expect more to rush to his defense, its more like theyre privately taking kickbacks from the thief while publically taking a "humanitarian stance" towards criminals, so they can benefit from this tool on both ends, and the only people who really suffer from this are ignored, which would be like the overall informational integrity and future of this place

gamma is not a void to throw your trash into

[Adam Strange]

Oh please, will Bertrand get over himself already. Your rambling posts are far more psychotic than the vast majority of posts on this forum.

I feel like a lot of people take out their anger out on Adam, only because he doesn't bite back. There are a lot of creeps on this forum, but at best they're ignored and left alone. Adam is attacked because he's not a real creep. I don't know what goes on between lungs and Adam, but whatever.

I don't feel a need to respond to hostility. It doesn't really hurt me, it just reflects on the person who is being hostile, because what they direct at one person, they can direct at anyone. I sometimes wonder at the mindset that thinks denigrating others makes the world a better place.

Personally, I'd much rather spend time with people who are positive and who make contributions. But I have learned a lot from the people on this forum, both good and bad.

[ashlesha]

Lol, it could be directed at anyone, it's just towards you because ~life is random~

[Bertrand]

just another day in the life of Ni polr

[FDG]

balls have 0 to me to me to me to me

[Minde]

(This line of conversation is def a candidate for thread splitting)


It seems there are two basic problems you two (Bertrand and lungs) have with Adam:

A) Adam is harassing lungs
B) Adam is besmirching the integrity of this forum's socionics information

There's also possibly C) he rubs you the wrong way really badly apart from the above and offends your morals. Please tell me (concisely if possible) if I'm missing anything that doesn't fall under one of those three categories.


Correct me if I'm wrong ( @mu4 ) but is this not the general process here for dealing with harassment?

1) Person X does things to / at Person Y that Person Y doesn't like
2) Person Y tells Person X to stop it
3) Person X does not stop it
4) Person Y reports Person X to authorities
5) Authorities take action immediately or tell Person X to stop it
6) Person X does not stop it
7) Authorities ban / limit / punish Person X

From what I've seen, this process has been utilized more or less effectively in the past. Has it been applied in this case?


As for the integrity of information, argue on, that's what the forum is for. Again, ad hominem isn't probably the most elegant of approaches and if it crosses into harassment as well that could be problematic from a logistical standpoint (if not moral), but to each their own.


I've had to deal with difficult persons "being in my quadra," too. Persons that offended me continually and came after me personally. I even fought with them... Yes, me, "peaceable Delta," fought with others, lol. (Have you seen the Delta Lounge thread from a few years ago?) It's aggravating for sure to be associated with someone you really dislike, so I get that much.


----------------


Bertrand, your perceptions of why people are doing things are wrong, FYI. Like that whole first paragraph of your edit is off, apart from the part where you said why you're doing what you're doing (or, rather, the denial of your non-reason, so reasons by way of negation, but I digress...) because of course you can comment on your own reasons. But your guesses for why others are not acting similarly to you are incorrect, at least as it pertains to me.

It's also condescending on your part to assume the readers of and participants in this forum have no pre-Adam knowledge of socionics and need guidance in making informed decisions. I mean, from what little I've seen of you in general I value your input and see you as having good insights. But you're not the pinnacle of socionics knowledge. If you are motivated to offer corrections or alternative viewpoints, that's good though and I appreciate it.

[Bertrand]

don't worry! I will continue to make corrections as needed. as for the rest of your post, its simply "unless he's harrassing someone directly no harm no foul [1]" which is fine. He can post his thoughts, I'll post mine, life goes on. He is an excellent foil to demonstrate many socionics principles in action and in that sense I am grateful

[1] these are precisely the psychological principles both EII and LSE live by, so im not surprised to see similar outlooks, both Adam in his surprise from where all this is coming from (because he implicitly believes exactly this), and you in your explicit awareness of the operative principles

I mean, if it were me, and I required the most compassionate and permissive type in the socion to justify my actions, it would raise certain questions, but hey I guess that's just my crazy low intuition putting ideas into my silly head

[Minde]

If there's indirect harassing that's bad, too. It's helpful when it's talked about in concrete terms, though, e.g. "You/he said this and it bothers me. Stop it."

[ashlesha]

I wouldn't qualify it as harassment, at least not any more than my expressions of anger would qualify as harassment. It crosses the line insofar as I've made my feeling towards him excessively clear and he behaves as though none of my protests have been heard and the boundaries I've made clear do not exist (because I'm his dual so my options are to welcome his behavior or be labeled mentally unstable) - and this isn't usually even expressed in creepy pm ways (that has only been a couple incidents) but in subtle attitude which is non-punishable and since I get too angry about it to put him on ignore I don't see myself as an innocent victim or his behavior as something to report.

[Bertrand]

it doesn't even matter, no ones asking Minde to ban this guy according to the rules as they stand. He just wants to say "look he hasn't broke any rules, therefore you can't critique him, because I find it distressing" but the thing is neither have we, so whatever, its going to continue because the rules have been set up in a way to be almost useless in this situation, which is precisely why I say anything to begin with. It was obvious this was never a matter of rules, I don't even know why Minde is bringing it up except to create some semblance of a justification for Adam under the banner of law

but people are entitled to voice their opinions, until this place totally ceases to be democratic and then it will be worthless for other reasons, besides Adams stupidity, so whatever

besides,

It doesn't really hurt me

can't have a crime without a victim

[Minde]

If EII is the most permissive type in the socion and this EII is smacking you upside the head for your behavior, Bertrand...

This has actually come up before in several other contexts. I do approach different people separately for what I consider bad behavior. The problem is I usually do it separately and not as publicly, so each side ends up with the impression that I'm picking on them and being unfair in my judgments. I haven't settled on a way to handle that that makes me feel internally at peace, so I guess everyone will have to just keep getting mad at me for liking the other guy better.

[Bertrand]

if you're smacking me (which I didn't realize was even going on, but if you say so) its because you recognize I'm not in need of your pity which is like a compliment from EII. its the implicit acknowledgement that I'm actually alright