Democratic Presidential Debate

[Grendel]

If you stopped immigration, they'll just ship the jobs overseas or automate faster.

Edo Japan did pretty well.

[xerx]

All mass immigration does is delay the inevitable. It is a short term band-aid fix to a long term problem. It helps keep the economy going and corporations producing for now, but eventually automation will rear its ugly head.

When that happens, there will be intense competition between the natives and immigrants for the sparse amount of jobs untouched by automation. From a long term standpoint, mass immigration will only worsen the upcoming automation crisis.

If we take this line of reasoning, then even regular population growth is bad and doomed to wreck the economy. It's the same argument made against women entering the workforce: that they're taking jobs away from men. In fact, a bigger workforce means that more people spend their earnings, which creates more demand and more jobs.

That said, it's probably fair to make the case that a certain class of very low-skilled individuals are going to lose their jobs because of low-skilled immigration. Very few of these people are going to learn to code and I think that we can all agree on the need to find them some help.

Edo Japan did pretty well.

Edo Japan was an agrarian society that would have eventually been subjugated by more technologically advanced countries. These were technologically more advanced because they were more open.

[Grendel]

Edo Japan was an agrarian society that would have eventually been subjugated by more technologically advanced countries. These were technologically more advanced because they were more open.

Ohhhh, wait. Are we saying the Europeans actually industrialized on their own merit, and that makes the results of their exploits a bit less atrocious if it led to progress later on? Or was all of it done on the back of le slave with loot from le colonized, making it invalid, and so the deflowering of Edo Japan, and any other cultural usurpation by association, is without any silver lining and still an atrocity to be avoided anywhere? Pick one, only one.


Of course you overtly shitpost about wanting to destroy the US so none of this advice is probably in good faith anyway.

[xerx]

Ohhhh, wait. Are we saying the Europeans actually industrialized on their own merit, and that makes the results of their exploits a bit less atrocious if it led to progress later on? Or was all of it done on the back of le slave with loot from le colonized, making it invalid, and so the deflowering of Edo Japan, and any other cultural usurpation by association, is without any silver lining and still an atrocity to be avoided anywhere? Pick one, only one.

I'd say it's a combination of slavery (which includes wage slavery) and being open to new ideas. If you live in the United States, you probably know about the history of cotton slavery and its importance for textile manufacturing.

Japan also industrialized on the back wage-slavery as well as outright slavery, just as China is doing today.

Of course you overtly shitpost about wanting to destroy the US so none of this advice is probably in good faith anyway.

Why does the right wing always get so triggered?

[Grendel]

Why does the right wing always get so triggered?

Half of our national ills are caused by the fact that we've been so open, Saudi Arabia and Israel now own our ass and none of the political class is accountable to our problems anymore.

There won't be "American refugees" or an "American Diaspora" the next time a war happens. Americans are such a hated group in every culture that anyone trying to flee anywhere will just get the same kind of treatment Koningsburg women and children got when the Russians charged back in for vengeance. We'll have nowhere to flee to if this country collapses. It won't matter if an American was "one of the good ones" who were kind to our own migrants, or even if we suddenly became totally pacifistic for the next 40 years until our destruction. No one will remember that. They'll remember only the sins of our fathers, in which we ourselves had no say.

Full autarky and militarization are probably the only way to prevent a future in nuclear fire or as China's slaves at this point. Africa, which never had the time to be colonialist, is now having infrastructure built by the same people who will destroy us.
There's no reason to be giving the benefit of the doubt to more people whose interests don't necessarily align with ours, while pretending it's in our self-interest. We fucked up when we went as far as the Caribbean. Every major atrocity in history is the result of incompatible cultures clashing because humans can't leave well enough alone and keep to their own soil for ten damn seconds.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Half of our national ills are caused by the fact that we've been so open, Saudi Arabia and Israel now own our ass and none of the political class is accountable to our problems anymore.

There won't be "American refugees" or an "American Diaspora" the next time a war happens. Americans are such a hated group in every culture that anyone trying to flee anywhere will just get the same kind of treatment Koningsburg women and children got when the Russians charged back in for vengeance. We'll have nowhere to flee to if this country collapses. It won't matter if an American was "one of the good ones" who were kind to our own migrants, or even if we suddenly became totally pacifistic for the next 40 years until our destruction. No one will remember that. They'll remember only the sins of our fathers, in which we ourselves had no say.

Full autarky and militarization are probably the only way to prevent a future in nuclear fire or as China's slaves at this point. Africa, which never had the time to be colonialist, is now having infrastructure built by the same people who will destroy us.
There's no reason to be giving the benefit of the doubt to more people whose interests don't necessarily align with ours, while pretending it's in our self-interest. We fucked up when we went as far as the Caribbean. Every major atrocity in history is the result of incompatible cultures clashing because humans can't leave well enough alone and keep to their own soil for ten damn seconds.

Dude, most refugees today are refugees because of the U.S. No shit the U.S. is widely hated, and with good reason. And S.A. and Israel certainly don’t “own” the States either; it’s just that our oligarchs have certain agreements with the oligarchs of those countries which they’d prefer to keep intact.

F.D.R. and Abdul-Aziz Ibn Saud made an agreement in the 40s when the former was returning from the Yalta Conference. The U.S. would protect the Saudi crown, and in exchange, S.A. would co-operate with the U.S. on anything it asked, and, of course, provide it with oil. This agreement has remained since then. Saudi Arabia was made into a puppet state of the U.S. in exchange for security — not the other way around.

I’m less familiar with Israel’s history. But it’s delusional to think that Israel puppets the U.S. Israel does what the States want (namely subsidizing the American “defense” industry and providing a more amiable ally than S.A. has been in the region), and in return receives special protection.

[Grendel]

F.D.R. and Abdul-Aziz Ibn Saud made an agreement in the 40s when the former was returning from the Yalta Conference. The U.S. would protect the Saudi crown, and in exchange, S.A. would co-operate with the U.S. on anything it asked, and, of course, provide it with oil. This agreement has remained since then. Saudi Arabia was made into a puppet state of the U.S. in exchange for security — not the other way around.

Most of US's oil comes from Canada now. The Petrodollar deal is now directed towards protecting the Saudis' monopoly on the local oil trade. If someone trades oil for a different currency than the USD, US attacks them, because another currency being able to bypass the exchange for US dollars now hurts the value of the USD, and our currency monopoly is threatened. The Euro was actually somewhat more valuable than USD for a while; that's why Iraq happened.

It's not about receiving oil, it's about denial-of-access to other traders so they're forced to go through an exchange for USD at some point, because there's no gold left and our money is entirely fake otherwise. Big difference. Think of it as the equivalent of killing off anyone who refuses to trade with us, rather than stomping in and plundering for the bare resources like most war narratives would have you think.

[mfckrz]

Dude, most refugees today are refugees because of the U.S.

Most are here because of NGO & Catholic charity human trafficker networks, and because they want free shit.

[xerx]

Half of our national ills are caused by the fact that we've been so open, Saudi Arabia and Israel now own our ass and none of the political class is accountable to our problems anymore.

There won't be "American refugees" or an "American Diaspora" the next time a war happens. Americans are such a hated group in every culture that anyone trying to flee anywhere will just get the same kind of treatment Koningsburg women and children got when the Russians charged back in for vengeance. We'll have nowhere to flee to if this country collapses. It won't matter if an American was "one of the good ones" who were kind to our own migrants, or even if we suddenly became totally pacifistic for the next 40 years until our destruction. No one will remember that. They'll remember only the sins of our fathers, in which we ourselves had no say.

Full autarky and militarization are probably the only way to prevent a future in nuclear fire or as China's slaves at this point. Africa, which never had the time to be colonialist, is now having infrastructure built by the same people who will destroy us.
There's no reason to be giving the benefit of the doubt to more people whose interests don't necessarily align with ours, while pretending it's in our self-interest. We fucked up when we went as far as the Caribbean. Every major atrocity in history is the result of incompatible cultures clashing because humans can't leave well enough alone and keep to their own soil for ten damn seconds.

America's national ills are caused by the fact that it's open for bribery. Other Western countries that are open to new ideas are doing fine; they have different sets of problems, but none of them are related to foreign lobbies exerting control.

As for the refugee scenario, you'd be surprised by how many people do in fact give a shit about people -- including Americans -- fleeing their homes.

[mfckrz]

If we take this line of reasoning, then even regular population growth is bad and doomed to wreck the economy. It's the same argument made against women entering the workforce: that they're taking jobs away from men. In fact, a bigger workforce means that more people spend their earnings, which creates more demand and more jobs.

Real incomes (insofar as what one can purchase with their earnings) have been flat for 40 years. More women entered the workforce because they had to—impossible now for most to reasonably rear a family on one income.

Expanding the labor supply has been great for business, not so much for the economy.

[Raver]

If we take this line of reasoning, then even regular population growth is bad and doomed to wreck the economy. It's the same argument made against women entering the workforce: that they're taking jobs away from men. In fact, a bigger workforce means that more people spend their earnings, which creates more demand and more jobs.

An overlooked fact of women entering the workforce is that doubling labor supply means that wage value was halved. Over time, you needed two incomes to be able to afford a mortgage and bills when one used to be sufficient. I am all for women's rights and freedom to work, but our salaries having half the value they used to have has been devastating to families. Also, a good portion of women (not all of course) resent being forced to work a career to raise a family and would of preferred to be stay at home mom's.

The price we pay for this is women being forced to work a career and raise a family or have your standard of living cut in half. Mass immigration is similar in this regard. We became so fixated in chasing meaningless statistics like GDP growth that we didn't realize how it impacted our quality of life and salaries not growing enough relative to ever increasing living costs.

That said, it's probably fair to make the case that a certain class of very low-skilled individuals are going to lose their jobs because of low-skilled immigration. Very few of these people are going to learn to code and I think that we can all agree on the need to find them some help.

Very low skilled individuals may lose their jobs to immigration and automation and end up on the streets. While high skilled working class and middle class individuals with careers find their standard of living slowly decrease as salaries cannot keep up to rising costs of living due to inflation. All mass immigration is doing is fueling an ever increasing wage gap difference as wealthy people fill their coffers and reap the benefits and everyday citizens pay the price.