LOL!Originally Posted by jewels
I think that just goes to show that a relationship shouldn't be dictated letter for letter by a theory, but instead by how the relationship "feels".
LOL!
I think that just goes to show that a relationship shouldn't be dictated letter for letter by a theory, but instead by how the relationship "feels".
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
ummm the point has been lost in translation.
I'm connecting the dots...
Why is different subtypes more favourable? Because if they do not match (implying different subtypes) then relations become simple and boring. However, if two duals value simple and boring relationships that must be why different subtypes are more favourable! the old switch aroo.
Basically - a rational-irrational subtype duality is favourable because they become simple, boring and uninteresting. something has to be lost in translation!
another russian site (socioniks) claims same subtypes make for an even more perfect duality. why? not sure. one claim against another.
I claim there is a shared sense of understanding amongst same subtypes or I'm bias. Besides I can recall numerous examples of same subtypes as best friends for life.
this one is correct, and when you've dated some duals, you'll know the difference.
Yeah I'm thinking this too--I've noticed that often the opposite meaning comes through in a Russian to English machine translation because a "not" gets dropped or just it doesn't translate some negative or a negative that does get translated wasn't actually meant to be a negative.
I think probably a "not" got dropped somewhere here.
Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx
that was a joke. Ugh, eyeroll, annoying INFp ftw. lol.
Ugh, Ti-PoLR ftw
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
Where can I find more information about "subtypes"? This is the first that I've heard of it.
I think this makes the most sense:
Two producing (or accepting) subtypes will probably be 'more dualised' compared to a couple consisting of a producing and an accepting subtype. That also means a LII-3Ne and a ILE-3Ti are very similar as well as their Alpha-SF counterparts.
Try Wikisocion. You can find there a lot information about almost anything regarding socionics. Here is a Link.
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
Same rationality subtypes are more compatible. The article in the OP is plainly wrong.
I find Ni EIEs more exciting, more enrapturing, but I also get a sense that we'd fight a lot, albeit in a horny dual way. It's a very intense attraction, rippling with lust and sensuousness. But still, we have to have a lot of things in common for this to work out.
Fe EIEs are awesome, because they always respond in just the right way to everything I say. Every silly comment I make is taken positively, and it's very easy for me to make them laugh, and the constant Fe reinforcement makes me feel badass. They also seem generally more fun and upbeat, and their anxieties are easy for me to calm.
Overall, I'd prefer an Fe EIE. Even though it's not as intense romantically, it's much more blissful, effortless, and, in the long run, happier.
So yeah, that article can lick my butthole.
yep, let's call that myth, busted.
I suspect part of the reason for the confusion is something I encountered back when I was first researching DCNH: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...7&postcount=33
My current theory is that Meged and Ovcharov, despite in theory trying to divide each sociotype into Rational and Irrational subtypes, in practice wound up categorizing people based mostly on traits related to Extraversion/Introversion. If you read their descriptions on Wikisocion, for Rational sociotypes the "Rational Subtype" is described as more introverted, and the "Irrational Subtype" is described as more extraverted. For the Irrational Sociotypes, this pattern is reversed.
The problem when it comes to the notion of "subtype Duality" is that there are actually more than two subtypes. In DCNH, there are Extraverted and Introverted versions of Rational and Irrational subtypes: Dominant (Extraverted Rational), Normalizing (Introverted Rational), Creative (Extraverted Irrational) and Harmonizing (Introverted Irrational). The subtypes that get along best are the same on the Rational/Irrational scale, but opposite on the Introvert/Extravert scale (D+N and C+H). Since Meged and Ovcharov lumped all Extraverted and Introverted subtypes together, their system would look like this:
Meged/Ovcharov "LSI Rational Subtype" = DCNH N-LSI and H-LSI
Meged/Ovcharov "LSI Irrational Subtype" = DCNH C-LSI and D-LSI
Meged/Ovcharov "EIE Rational Subtype" = DCNH N-EIE and H-EIE
Meged/Ovcharov "EIE Irrational Subtype" = DCNH C-EIE and D-EIE
So of course, using their system (which presumably Boukalov was doing when he wrote the quotes in the OP), an "LSI Rational Subtype" would be best matched with an "EIE Irrational Subtype", because N-LSI goes with D-EIE, and H-LSI goes with C-EIE.
On the other hand, Gulenko's descriptions on Wikisocion of the two-subtype system (which pre-date his DCNH work) appear to be based solely on the Ego functions, so:
Gulenko "LSI Rational Subtype" = DCNH N-LSI
Gulenko "LSI Irrational Subtype" = DCNH C-LSI
Gulenko "EIE Rational Subtype" = DCNH D-EIE
Gulenko "EIE Irrational Subtype" = DCNH H-EIE
Of course, using this system, the ideal match would be "LSI Rational Subtype" with "EIE Rational Subtype", etc. The downside is that there are several DCNH subtypes that aren't included at all.
In conclusion: the 2-subtype system is outdated and insufficient to accurately describe how subtypes interact.
Quaero Veritas.
Okay, I'm confused. I thought rational subtypes were N and D and irrational subtypes were C and H.
If you correlate the accepting/producing system with DCNH:
For rational types:
Accepting subtype = D or N subtype
Producing subtype = C or H subtype
For irrational types:
Accepting subtype = C or H subtype
Producing subtype = D or N subtype
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
Exactly correct.
I wasn't thinking about it in terms of Accepting and Producing, though. That actually probably explains what's going on with the Meged/Ovcharov subtype descriptions: they consistently describe the Accepting subtype as more introverted, and the Producing subtype as more extraverted. So if you went by their descriptions, Dominants and Creatives would wind up being classified as Producing subtypes, and Normalizers and Harmonizers as Accepting subtypes. Hence the confusion about how "subtype Duality" works.
Quaero Veritas.
I think it's important to understand the core characteristics of each intertype relationship as they are defined by the interaction of the two Model As. Once that is understood, then it is possible to start calculating the effect that subtype variance has on those relationship characteristics. I don't personally use DCNH for reasons I won't get into here, but under a two subtype model, there's actually going to be multiple types of interaction occurring (i.e., there will be a primary intertype relationship, secondary, and tertiary). This won't make any sense at all until you start examining the relationship at a functional level (taking functional strength into account).
Here's a very basic calculator conveying this concept: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i...relationships/
sociotype.com
LII
how far down does the rabbit hole go?
anyone else feeling the strain of subtypes?
I wouldn't call it a strain, no, but comparing my two close friends, I can tell the difference in how things developed (hint: Ti-ILE, VERY STORMILY).
That's easily attributable to the Ti-ILE being a fellow sx-first male, though. And also having to deal with me being cranky due to an important relationship of mine breaking down.
A looong way down. The realm of subtypes is a crazy one indeed.
just make something up and go with it.
sociotype.com
LII
Thanks, now I found another timewaster.
For fun I tried these relationships:
LII-1Ne with LII-1Ti:
- Primary: Identical (71%)
- Secondary: Look-a-like (15%)
- Tertiary: Kindred (15%)
LII-3Ne with LII-3Ti:
- Primary: Look-a-like (44%)
- Secondary: Kindred (44%)
- Tertiary: Identical (13%)
LII-1Ne with ESE-1Fe ("wrong" subtype dual):
- Primary: Dual (71%)
- Secondary: Illusionary (15%)
- Tertiary: Semi-dual (15%)
LII-1Ne with LSE-1Si (matching subtype illusionary):
LII-1Ne with SEE-1Se:
- Primary: Illusionary (71%)
- Secondary: Dual (29%)
- Tertiary: Semi-dual (0%)
LII-1Ne with SEE-1Fi:
- Primary: Conflicting (100%)
- Secondary: Supervisory (with you as Supervisee) (0%)
- Tertiary: Supervisory (with you as Supervisor) (0%)
Apparently I'd be better off with an Fi-SEE than the Se subtype. I was wondering about that.
- Primary: Conflicting (71%)
- Secondary: Supervisory (with you as Supervisee) (15%)
- Tertiary: Supervisory (with you as Supervisor) (15%)
LII-1Ne with ILE-1Ti:
LII-1Ne with ILE-1Ne:
- Primary: Mirror (71%)
- Secondary: Supervisory (with you as Supervisor) (15%)
- Tertiary: Supervisory (with you as Supervisee) (15%)
- Primary: Mirror (100%)
LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP
From a philosophical standpoint socionic calculations has no truth but only the appearance of truth. A classic maxim for truth is when the word agrees with the object. The word refers to logos or speech. A mathematical calculation of the mind nullifies subjective experience in which the individual is scrutinized as an inanimate object. How can socionic practice call themselves humanistic when their methods include calculations that befit measuring the human mind no different from measuring engine fluid?
I do not disagree there is subtypes and such but calculations of the conscious mind is offensive to my tastes. I do not deny the pinpoint accuracy but I can not accept such a mechanical interpretation of the human being. I consider the mind to be organic much like the body. As the body is naturally suited toward equilibrium so to is the mind. In the same manner as the body naturally heals wounds so to does the mind but one is leaf scarred and vulnerable.
The entirety of an individual can not be measured crudely. The individual is energetically entwined with the energy felt by and with others. As is commonly spoken and heard a person feels a certain affinity for another due to a sense of sharing the same vibrations and riding the same wave length.
Calculations of such magnitude extend knowledge beyond human experience but experience is what gives birth to wisdom. What we have here is a layout of the precise order of socionic intertype relations inwhich only a brain living inside a jar can appreciate since the brain can not experience much else except knowledge of what life is like.
good post!
Though classical socionics itself does not use those calculations, rather some people on this forum. Socionics is very much focussed on energy (subconscious) and information (conscious) exchange between two people's minds.
Duality and subtypes
So I know there are some threads related to this but as far as I remember, none offered a very clear consensus, so I'm making a new thread cuz this is interesting.
Duality and subtypes.
Ji + Je and Pi + Pe OR Ji + Pi and Je + Pe?
Is one better? Or do they just have different qualities? How do the various subtype pairings affect duality? Is the difference meaningful? What have you observed? Compare/contrast...ETC
Not a consensus, but I recently shared my ideas on this in the Delta Lounge in delta subforum, p90-91, posts 3575, 3580, 3628.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
This one. I've kind of wondered if activity partners with corresponding subtypes would work better than duality with different subtypes. Would need more personal experience with both kinds though.
I thought there was clear consensus.
Same subtypes is better.
So accepting + accepting, and producing + producing.
accepting + producing = worse
What Jarno 'n' Galen said.
It arises from duality of functions. Fe and Ti are dual functions, not Fe and Ne, for example.
In my experience I get on best with those I reckon as irrational-sub gammas, rational-sub deltas, and irrational-sub betas. Feel free to take my share of Ne-Si, I won't be eating it anyhow.
EDIT: Actually I'd rather deal with Ne-EIIs than their Fi-sub counterparts, maybe because they aren't so goddamn prickly. Hmmmmm...
Last edited by Korpsy Knievel; 09-09-2011 at 01:40 AM.
I read that when you posted it
Ji / Je & Pi / Pe is the purer duality. Whether that's better or not is open to debate. The Ji / Pi & Je / Pe duals will probably seem more accessible to eachother in the initial stages. The former pairs will have more core similarities and the long term relationship will be slightly more fluid, but the chance of the relationship lasting is further diminished; that's a consistent problem with duality, and it will be relaxed with the Ji/Pi Je/Pe duals somewhat.
Hm really?
That's the whole problem with duality is it's difficult to form into a lasting relationship. Don't take my word for it, go ask starfalls ex boyfriend.
Haha. I haven't had a lot of experience w duality so I wonder what ppl's experience is like.
You are SEE type, right?
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
Duals like to have fun, building energy on each other. However, this results in the lack of productive activities that make relationship work. You want a long term relationship? Get a mature dual.
Don't play only ego functions, you need super-ego to survive regardless. Both you and your dual should be strong in both blocks and know when to activate them.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!
Ya.
Reuben you're not allowed to talk about maturity.
Well technically you should get along better with a person whose subtype shares your accepting or producing preference. Practically, subtypes are a continuum and the exact ratio of accepting to producing usage can be volatile, so you'd get along better with someone that has the same "reference band". Example: a peak-Ne EP will get along better with a peak-Si IP, because they both hover around the complementary functional states; a mixed-NeFi EP can get along quite decently with both peak-Si and peak-Te when their functional states are complementary at a given point in time, yet integrating the compatibility function over an infinite time-span will result in a lower value compared to a relationship with a mixed-SiTe IP, given that relations both peak-Si IP and peak-Te IP will have a lower total amount of compatible states.
Plus it can even be that someone whose subtype is only slightly bordering towards acc or prod will shift to a new equilibrium of states once a relationship is estabilished and going well.
So bottom line, unless the subtype is extremely well identified (i.e. it's either peak-accepting or peak-producing) it's better to forget about it when trying to predict how compatible you will be with a given person.
Err, usually people have to work full time in order to make a living, so their romantic relaitonships are defined as a time of relaxation, at least at first. Relaxation doesn't mean lazing around in the sofa, it can mean plenty of enjoyable activities; further down the line people start families etc. and that seems tiring enoughDuals like to have fun, building energy on each other. However, this results in the lack of productive activities that make relationship work. You want a long term relationship? Get a mature dual.
Plus you can have dual friends and business partners too, ofc on here we focus on romantic relationships but having dual colleagues and friends or bossess can lead to many "productive" activities.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Cool.
(i)NTFS
An ILI at rest tends to remain at rest
and an ILI in motion is probably not an ILI
♫ 31.9FM KICE Radio ♫ *56K Warning*
My work on Inert/Contact subtypes
Socionics Visual Identification(V.I.) Database
Socionics Tests Database
Comprehensive List of Socionics Sites
Fidei Defensor
Reuben you're not allowed to talk about maturity.
@FDG
Immature duals (duals who build relationships at a very young age) tend to build up activities that may not mature towards a form of productive development. While you may work on other more productive things in future, there is a tendency to just take the path of least resistance.
As compared to developing a serious relationship with a dual who is already established financially (no doubt they can engage insuch as building families and businesses etc), relationships with immature duals are generally harder to last unless they are able to help each other hunker down and mature their super egos.plenty of enjoyable activities
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!
@ clumsy
yea it happened before lolThe fun is great, but if the other person isn't looking out for you, you will be hit hard on the ground when you're on your own and have no one to blame for not getting things done but yourself. It's important to find a dual that respects your goals and your needs like their own and is willing to help you achieve them, not hold you back.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
beyond words
beautiful within
her soul
brighter than
the sun
lovelier than
love
dreams larger
than life
and does not
understand the
meaning of no.
Because everything
through her, and in her, is
A couple years ago I was put in charge of decorating the college for Valentine's Day. I made some gorgeous, fancy decorations from construction paper, glue, scissors, and imagination. Then I covered a couple cabinets with them. But my favorite was the diagram of a human heart I put up. So romantic!
no duals are always better than activity IMO. They have this extra special flavour that you just don't get with activation.
Last edited by Jarno; 09-09-2011 at 04:38 PM.
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