Aristocracy & Censorship

[Spermatozoa]

Which would be a good example of why we need to think about how to reduce prejudicial ideas from harming ANY group of people, so that stopping the harm to one group doesn't result in harm to another group.

The desire to prevent social harm is responsible for creating a great deal of it. I would like a fairer world, too. However unlike you, I recognize that if you try to force change upon people who don't want it, you create worse problems than the one you set out to solve.

Just saying "let the market take care of it" doesn't resolve the problem, and leads to further problems, further oppressions, and eventual further coercions. (Free market solutions are like someone putting their hands over their ears and singing "lalalala I can't hear you, and if i can't hear you then it doesn't exist".) Harm was definitely being done to a few groups of people. Affirmative action was an attempt to solve that problem.

You are simply replacing one hierarchy with another one. That isn't justice, it's vengeance. Inequality is a natural part of life. We can't change human nature, so serenity comes when you stop projecting and try to make the best of the hand you've been dealt.

What ideas do YOU have regarding how to have prevented the further oppression of women and non-whites from the work force? Or do you think that women/non-whites shouldn't have tried to have financial autonomy in a "good-old-boys' system"? Don't forget, while trying to reduce the previous oppressions you'd also have to contend with the previous normalizations of censoring women and non-whites in the work forces, and how to create new normalizations that don't censor/harm them. I look forward to your list of possible options that would have covered all those complex issues going on at the time.

Has it occurred to you that a lot of white men might also be struggling to find work and make ends meet right now, too? The "oppression of women and non-whites in the workforce" insinuates that all women and non-whites are victims and that all white men are their oppressors. This is factually incorrect and a deeply corrosive message to push. I think you are deliberately fueling envy and resentment.

[anndelise]

The desire to prevent social harm is responsible for creating a great deal of it. I would like a fairer world, too. However unlike you, I recognize that if you try to force change upon people who don't want it, you create worse problems than the one you set out to solve.

Don't strawman my position. I've been talking about human nature, I hadn't taken any sides.

My post to you recognized that yes, some white men got hurt in the process of affirmative action. And then I asked you what other possible solutions you could provide. Criticizing possible solutions is super easy...Coming up with workable ones is a whole different ball-game. Instead of bitching and complaining about solutions that were put into effect, it'd be more productive to find alternatives that cover both the previous problem as well as the unintended consequences.

Am I to understand that your solution to the previous inequality issues would have been to tell the lower social cast to suck it up and make the best of the hand they've been dealt with and not try to change anything in society lest it create worse problems? (your next quote suggests 'yes')

(on a more personal note, I do find it interesting that you might be suggesting here that affirmative action created worse problems than the one it attempted to solve)

You are simply replacing one hierarchy with another one. That isn't justice, it's vengeance. Inequality is a natural part of life. We can't change human nature, so serenity comes when you stop projecting and try to make the best of the hand you've been dealt.

Yes, inequality is a natural part of life. We can't change human nature, and part of human nature is to attempt to censor what they perceive to be offensive/harmful. I'm not saying that's a good thing nor a bad thing, it's just a human thing. Trying to censor that won't make it go away. The more productive thing, imo, would be to acknowledge that aspect of human life and consider it when considering solutions to problems you perceive.

As for the rest of what I just quoted, I'm not sure you're aware of the implications of what you wrote. Yes, affirmative action created inequality in a few white men's lives. To try to overturn affirmative action policies is "simply replacing one hierarchy with another hierarchy," which, according to what you wrote, "isn't justice, it's vengeance". But as you said yourself, "inequality is a natural part of life." so according to you, those white men should "stop projecting and try to make the best of the hand they've been dealt"...which is currently affirmative action.

See, one way of seeing if what you're writing is biased or not is to flip the actors/actees and see if you still stand by what you wrote. Do you?
Do you think that white men who've been negatively impacted by affirmative action should just suck it up and deal with the hand they've now been dealt?
With things flipped, do you still stand by what you wrote about not trying to force change (removing affirmative action) upon people who don't want it, lest that "creates worse problems than the one you set out to solve"?

Has it occurred to you that a lot of white men might also be struggling to find work and make ends meet right now, too?

Did you even read what I wrote? I already acknowledged, in my first sentence of that post even, "Which would be a good example of why we need to think about how to reduce prejudicial ideas from harming ANY group of people, so that stopping the harm to one group doesn't result in harm to another group."

The "oppression of women and non-whites in the workforce" insinuates that all women and non-whites are victims and that all white men are oppressors. This is factually incorrect and a deeply corrosive message to push. You are deliberately fueling envy and resentment.

Flip-time:
'The "oppression of straight white men via affirmative action" insinuates that all white men are victims and that all women and nonwhites are oppressors.'?? That would indeed be factually incorrect and a deeply corrosive message to push. When you argue against affirmative action, are you deliberately fueling envy and resentment of white men against women and non-whites? Are you?