Do you believe in God?

[Enters Laughing]

I only recent realised that I am so normalised to Abrahamic "ethics" in our society that I previously failed to challenge something unacceptable in this thread.

When I raised the issue with @applejacks of the Christian god potentially sending good people such as Anne Frank to Hell for the mere sin of not believing in and/or following the Christian god, she did not say "Oh, you are right, the Christian god is indeed fundamentally evil" or "I believe that my god sends all good people to Heaven, regardless of their views on religion" , she instead found me at fault for assuming that such people died without being saved. This does not change the fact that Hell is still a fundamentally evil doctrine, and that good people should not be punished. To try to respond to my argument in such a way shows a clear inability to focus on what is of fundamental importance: being humane, regardless of what your religious views you have (if you have any). This only furthers my view that those who believe in god because of the perceived existence of humane, perhaps universal values, are often misguided and limit the powers of human nature.

[SongOfSapphire]

I think about things like how the zika virus affects babies, helpless and innocent as it's possible to be, and their parents, some of whom at least must be "good Christians" (many of the affected countries being Christian, officially or just by majority) and I doubt the existence of god (or, if god does exist, god's loving nature). I read this story and cried, and there are many more... and may be thousands more as summer and mosquitoes come to the northern hemisphere.

I read things about how the end is coming for sinners and the good people will be left, and I just think it's so blatantly self-righteous and ironically hateful.

I'm having an irritated (potentially irritating) moment right now, but these are things I think often when I hear religious people speak. I don't relate w how people can even be sure of a god, though I respect that they believe in something (which is sometimes portrayed as loving, forgiving, gracious, and graceful), but to worship a god and eagerly await a day of reckoning where other people will be sentenced to eternal damnation is just...kind of heartless imo, depending on whom they're (the believers and, they say, god) considering "bad" and why.

But maybe it doesn't matter anyway. The whole debate is silly, really, since no one can prove or disprove a thing about it. I recognize that, but I can't seem to help myself from trying to figure it out.

[mu4]

I think about things like how the zika virus affects babies, helpless and innocent as it's possible to be, and their parents, some of whom at least must be "good Christians" (many of the affected countries being Christian, officially or just by majority) and I doubt the existence of god (or, if god does exist, god's loving nature). I read this story and cried, and there are many more... and may be thousands more as summer and mosquitoes come to the northern hemisphere.

I read things about how the end is coming for sinners and the good people will be left, and I just think it's so blatantly self-righteous and ironically hateful.

I'm having an irritated (potentially irritating) moment right now, but these are things I think often when I hear religious people speak. I don't relate w how people can even be sure of a god, though I respect that they believe in something (which is sometimes portrayed as loving, forgiving, gracious, and graceful), but to worship a god and eagerly await a day of reckoning where other people will be sentenced to eternal damnation is just...kind of heartless imo, depending on whom they're (the believers and, they say, god) considering "bad" and why.

But maybe it doesn't matter anyway. The whole debate is silly, really, since no one can prove or disprove a thing about it. I recognize that, but I can't seem to help myself from trying to figure it out.

I was reminded of this song thru your post and Subt's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHmTqoLjlXo

I think in a way this song and the denial of god is in fact only directed at one god/subset of gods but it believes in nature, the problems of humanity in a nature that cares not about it.

I think the belief, disbelief in god is really a very surface level conflict that arises because of language, the enmeshment of these various ideas into our identities and our human nature. Believers of all ilk, good, bad, dumb, smart, are all looking for something from god/or whatever belief system they happen to have. And when someone says Mother Earth, there is this same desire.

When Subt or I proposes that religious are less responsible, less capable of recovery, we might be right, but we might also seem self righteous and ironically contemptuous to applejacks.

I think the debate is neccessary, because the debate is less terrifying than the material conflicts people engage in over these matters of belief.

The debate proposes a problem which cannot be solved, which is how to prove who's right about this, but in this matter there can be no intellectual victory(not a satisfying one at least), there can only be an emotional one, and it does not have to be for one side or another.

I like applejacks a lot and I don't know if I can prove to her that god doesn't exist, or some article of doctrine for her to follow, nor if this is desired. I think she sincerely tries to be a good person everyday, but like many individuals she has her share of flaws, and she is in despair over some things, and there are many dissatisfaction. And if you read between the lines you will see that she may want to express these things and that the only way for her to push it away is to reinforce her belief in god, and the debate offers her a place to do this.

But a hostile debate and environment offers her no place to express her own despair, what truly pains her. Hostility also lets people channel these pains and find blame in the people we come into confrontation with, and not merely the offenses they give to us, but also blamed for more existential ones, like death which comes inevitably. So, they become bad people to us. Religion and other doctrine calcifies these real psychological issues, complex and conflicts into doctrine and organizes us socially around it.

However this is only one path for the outcome of these debates, and other outcomes exist. And it is in these other outcomes that something new can arise to help us cope with the problems of the world, which we are rather helpless to face.

It pains me to see her voice her belief in some things but I think she is also in pain and there are very few satisfactory answers. I think it's very hard to practice the things one needs to do in order to resolve these conflicts constructively and they sometimes(perhaps always?) require love and kindness, not only intellectual wrangling. It is only when the pain of our existence, the pain of ambiguity about our fate is reduced that people can listen and communicate their despair and perhaps given the right circumstances alleviate some of this pain and even find some meaningful movements in our confusion.

[Skepsis]

It's nice to know that the personal God works for people like



and not some kid dying an agonizing death from cancer.

[SongOfSapphire]

I was reminded of this song thru your post and Subt's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHmTqoLjlXo

I think in a way this song and the denial of god is in fact only directed at one god/subset of gods but it believes in nature, the problems of humanity in a nature that cares not about it.

I think the belief, disbelief in god is really a very surface level conflict that arises because of language, the enmeshment of these various ideas into our identities and our human nature. Believers of all ilk, good, bad, dumb, smart, are all looking for something from god/or whatever belief system they happen to have. And when someone says Mother Earth, there is this same desire.

When Subt or I proposes that religious are less responsible, less capable of recovery, we might be right, but we might also seem self righteous and ironically contemptuous to applejacks.

I think the debate is neccessary, because the debate is less terrifying than the material conflicts people engage in over these matters of belief.

The debate proposes a problem which cannot be solved, which is how to prove who's right about this, but in this matter there can be no intellectual victory(not a satisfying one at least), there can only be an emotional one, and it does not have to be for one side or another.

I like applejacks a lot and I don't know if I can prove to her that god doesn't exist, or some article of doctrine for her to follow, nor if this is desired. I think she sincerely tries to be a good person everyday, but like many individuals she has her share of flaws, and she is in despair over some things, and there are many dissatisfaction. And if you read between the lines you will see that she may want to express these things and that the only way for her to push it away is to reinforce her belief in god, and the debate offers her a place to do this.

But a hostile debate and environment offers her no place to express her own despair, what truly pains her. Hostility also lets people channel these pains and find blame in the people we come into confrontation with, and not merely the offenses they give to us, but also blamed for more existential ones, like death which comes inevitably. So, they become bad people to us. Religion and other doctrine calcifies these real psychological issues, complex and conflicts into doctrine and organizes us socially around it.

However this is only one path for the outcome of these debates, and other outcomes exist. And it is in these other outcomes that something new can arise to help us cope with the problems of the world, which we are rather helpless to face.

It pains me to see her voice her belief in some things but I think she is also in pain and there are very few satisfactory answers. I think it's very hard to practice the things one needs to do in order to resolve these conflicts constructively and they sometimes(perhaps always?) require love and kindness, not only intellectual wrangling. It is only when the pain of our existence, the pain of ambiguity about our fate is reduced that people can listen and communicate their despair and perhaps given the right circumstances alleviate some of this pain and even find some meaningful movements in our confusion.

Well said. I don't want to offend @applejacks, either. If anything, a significant part of me wants to join her but can't.

And thank you for posting a link to "Dear God" -- as soon as I saw you were directing to a song I knew it would be that one I haven't heard or even thought of it in years. (Have you heard Sarah McLachlin's version? I love it - http://youtu.be/HWoTET9BgF4 ) The whole song resonates w me <3

Anyway, yeah. I just happened to see some religious-based political stuff on FB (my state governor is considering whether or not to veto a bill I see as extremely discriminatory) right after reading a post in Delta that riled me up, and came here... I agree/realize there can be no satisfactory resolution (at least for the skeptical). I just hate how unloving so many (not all!) religious people are, and how they use their religion as an excuse.

Anyway, great post

[Park]

Two pedophile priests are sitting at the bar. One turns to the other and says: "I'll swap you two fives for a ten."

Needless to say, I believe in priests.

[nickelslick]

Yes. Reality seems to self-optimize, and whatever higher order I am part of has to be more than a mind, not less, since I have a mind and am merely a constituent. Just look at the Socion, I would never have guessed that I have such a specific role to play among humans. I think this goes way higher than we realize.

[Anglas]

Yeah, its called evolution

[Anglas]

Fuck you jesus

[nickelslick]

Yeah, its called evolution

Yes, but I don't limit it to biology.

Stop being mean to Mexicans.

[Anglas]

K

[Aylen]

I believe in magic.

[Aylen]

Fuck you Jesús

Edited: to correct misspelling as clarified in the posts following.

[Anglas]

These are great

[SongOfSapphire]

How Christianity and Islam Took Over the World

[LauriesCrusador]

Fuck you jesus

[Eliza Thomason]

F.. y... j...

This crap does not belong on this forum. This is so offensive.

And @Aylen, you were wrong to quote it.

[Aylen]

This crap does not belong on this forum. This is so offensive.

And @Aylen, you were wrong to quote it.

Ask him why he feels that way?

I know it is offensive to you because of your beliefs and at one time it would have been to me too but they are just words. There are far more offensive things in life than words.

Edit: I understand btw. I have things I feel offended by but this was not one of them. I did think that you and a couple of others would not like it. I have gay immediate family members and I hear offensive comments about gay people all the time. Sometimes I voice my disapproval and other times I make light of it.

Edit: I don't particularly like when someone tries to "shame" and this has been annoying me today. I am NOT annoyed at you @Eliza Thomason

It's because these verses have been stuck in my head since responding to this post earlier. My past with Christianity has led to me hearing bible verses in my head whenever someone uses religion to alter my behavior or justify their actions. arrgh It's nothing personal. I am just a walking book of quotes.

Matthew 12:31,32 Why I say to you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men...

Luke 12:10 And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him...

[applejacks]

Good tree = good fruit.
Bad tree = bad fruit.

"Religious", "Spiritual", or not, this stands true.

[Beautiful sky]

I watched "how the earth was made" and I'm always amazed at the miracle that we are. In the vast space of chaotic energy, movement, we are safely (for now enclosed in this bubble. What an amazing phenomenon. We should be in awe of one another and where we are as we consciously realize our lot. Maybe in a way what represents God, faith to me is standing before this and being humbled by my existence.

[Eliza Thomason]

Ask him why he feels that way?

He just wants to mock and scoff, that's all. I used to think all people had some deeper nice reason to act like the worse kind of people, but then i realize, sometimes they act just like they are. And I don't know if Anglas is a scum bag or just ACTING like one. Whatever he is, what he said was crap.

But this particular crap is all-OKAY on 16types.info forum! I know its okay here because I reported it and nothing was done. So why am I a member of a forum where to insult my most deeply held beliefs, in the most crass way, is 100% okay? Why?

Recently here on 16Types, over Lent, there was an abortion thread started by a new member, a member who had been fielding insults of God and religion on a thread I started, which did not happen to be about God and religion, but that's where it went. And that new member was BANNED. Why? Because even though forum members wrote their various opinions very respectfully, @mu4, forum-owner, thought it was intolerably disrespectful to the Pro-choice people to call Pro-Lifers what they call themselves - "Prolifers". So he banned the member because of this. It certainly appears that at 16T we don't want to get anywhere NEAR possibly insulting anyone who is in the politically-correct belief systems, but it IS okay on 16T to insult the Christian God. Even though there are plenty of regular-posting Christians who are regular contributing members in good standing. We don't matter?

The people I am accustomed to being with professionally and socially have a normal degree of politeness and human decency. And I think its REASONABLE to expect that on this forum.

I know it is offensive to you because of your beliefs and at one time it would have been to me too but they are just words. There are far more offensive things in life than words.

Its starts with words. Words have meaning. Its not okay to use words to grossly and crudely insult what matters most to me in the world. This is NOT acceptable in normal civilized society.

Edit: I understand btw. I have things I feel offended by but this was not one of them. I did think that you and a couple of others would not like it. I have gay immediate family members and I hear offensive comments about gay people all the time. Sometimes I voice my disapproval and other times I make light of it.

Exactly. If it had been about Buddha, or Allah, or a gay person, Anglas's ugly comment would have drawn scorn, not coddling, and would have been removed, as it should be. But Anglas apparently correctly assumed that forum members and forum moderators are okay with THIS brand of hate.

I prefer a CIVILIZED forum that would not allow this kind of insult over anyone's religion, race, culture, or gender-identity. I think that's reasonable.

Edit: I don't particularly like when someone tries to "shame" and this has been annoying me today. I am NOT annoyed at you @Eliza Thomason

Thanks. And I was just stating my firm opinion. Squark's comment was scumbag-rude, and should not be allowed, and its wrong to encourage it. And i firmly believe that it should be protested, and certainly not affirmed by being quoted. And I called you on it because I think you are better than that.

It's because these verses have been stuck in my head since responding to this post earlier. My past with Christianity has led to me hearing bible verses in my head whenever someone uses religion to alter my behavior or justify their actions. arrgh It's nothing personal. I am just a walking book of quotes.

Aw. God's word. The double-edged sword.

What came to my mind when Anglas posted was Psalm 1, which I memorized long ago (in the NASB - I prefer reading King James now. It starts:

How blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!

Yes, I would be blessed not to sit in Anglas' seat. Now, here are your verses:

Matthew 12:31,32 Why I say to you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men...

Yes, all men, every man, no matter how serious the sin or blasphemy, is forgiven completely and totally the second he asks. And who does he ask? Not an angry God, but a loving merciful one. Does he have to beg God and explain himself well? No. God gets it, and is anxious to forgive completely as soon as the heart turns in the slightest direction with that desire in mind.

Luke 12:10 And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him...

Yes,Our Lord Jesus will forgive Anglas if he ever asks, and I forgive him now, as God makes it plain I should, since I will be judged by the measuring rod I judge Anglas with, so, yes, its worth my while! Anyway, I have had to forgive much much worse. But does that mean I want keep listening to Anglas insult my Lord and my God? Nope. I do not. And if mu4 wants 16T to be an arena where one is free to insult my religion freely, then maybe I would be blessed to get out of these scoffer's seats he is providing.

[Eliza Thomason]

And with Anglas it likely simply ignorance. He is from Lithuania, and therefore not immersed in REAL American culture. He gets the Hollywood version, which is completely divorced from real life. Its a parody, a complete distortion of reality. Only in the Hollywood version of life is religion and God mocked and scoffed and insulted. In real, normal, civilized American culture, among real, honest, hard-working people, it is NOT. Real NORMAL people respect differences, and do not mock them.

[SongOfSapphire]

Recently here on 16Types, over Lent, there was an abortion thread started by a new member, a member who had been fielding insults of God and religion on a thread I started, which did not happen to be about God and religion, but that's where it went. And that new member was BANNED. Why? Because even though forum members wrote their various opinions very respectfully, @mu4, forum-owner, thought it was intolerably disrespectful to the Pro-choice people to call Pro-Lifers what they call themselves - "Prolifers". So he banned the member because of this. It certainly appears that at 16T we don't want to get anywhere NEAR possibly insulting anyone who is in the politically-correct belief systems, but it IS okay on 16T to insult the Christian God. Even though there are plenty of regular-posting Christians who are regular contributing members in good standing. We don't matter?

Well, first, that's not exactly true; the poll was edited after he made it. He started the thread to troll, and as is reflected in several responses in the thread (including mine), he originally listed the choices as "pro-life" or "pro-abortion." I believe some of his posts were deleted as well, but @mu4 or others would need to confirm that, and of course I don't know all of the reasoning for banning that member (though I do believe he was a troll).

The people I am accustomed to being with professionally and socially have a normal degree of politeness and human decency. And I think its REASONABLE to expect that on this forum.

Its starts with words. Words have meaning. Its not okay to use words to grossly and crudely insult what matters most to me in the world. This is NOT acceptable in normal civilized society.

I want to agree, but some people, here and irl, just don't act with the politeness and human decency we would prefer. I think that's just a hazard of living in the the world, even moreso on the internet.

For what it's worth, I have personally been quite offended by some of the things that you have written, but I figure it's your prerogative to say what you believe.

Exactly. If it had been about Buddha, or Allah, or a gay person, Anglas's ugly comment would have drawn scorn, not coddling, and would have been removed, as it should be. But Anglas apparently correctly assumed that forum members and forum moderators are okay with THIS brand of hate.

People who were offended might have spoken up, like you did when you were offended in this thread.


In a part of your post I didn't quote, you complain that @Anglas was allowed to post something you found offensive, and you questioned why you belong to a forum where your beliefs can be ridiculed. Well, so do we all.

Personally, I see some things you have posted as hateful -- I even referenced some of them in this thread, though I didn't mention you by name. So what? People get offended, you and me included. That's life, and I think it's an inevitable side effect of living in a society (or going on the internet) where freedom of speech is allowed. I wouldn't choose not ever being offended if it meant restricted speech, and I hope no society I inhabit ever does.

[Eliza Thomason]

Well, first, that's not exactly true; the poll was edited after he made it. He started the thread to troll, and as is reflected in several responses in the thread (including mine), he originally listed the choices as "pro-life" or "pro-abortion." I believe some of his posts were deleted as well, but @mu4 or others would need to confirm that, and of course I don't know all of the reasoning for banning that member (though I do believe he was a troll).




I want to agree, but some people, here and irl, just don't act with the politeness and human decency we would prefer. I think that's just a hazard of living in the the world, even moreso on the internet.

For what it's worth, I have personally been quite offended by some of the things that you have written, but I figure it's your prerogative to say what you believe.



People who were offended might have spoken up, like you did when you were offended in this thread.


In a part of your post I didn't quote you complain that @Anglas was allowed to post something you found offensive, and you questiomed why you belong to a forum where your beliefs van be ridiculed. Well, so do we all.

Personally, I see some things you have posted as hateful -- I even referenced some of them in this thread, though I didn't mention you by name. So what? People get offended, you and me included. That's life, and I think it's an inevitable side effect of living in a society (or going on the internet) where freedom of speech is allowed. I would 't choose not ever being offended if it meant restricted speech, and I hope no society I inhabit ever does.

I am stumped - what did I say that was offensive and hateful? I am not amazing, I am not perfect, but I do put a lot of effort in not being offensive. So what could you mean?

[SongOfSapphire]

I am stumped - what did I say that was offensive and hateful? I am not amazing, I am not perfect, but I do put a lot of effort in not being offensive. So what could you mean?

You weren't trying to be offensive or hateful, I realize; I doubt you would ever think of it that way. But I was offended by some of the religious stuff you wrote, I believe in the Delta comedians thread. I find the idea of eternal damnation for nonbelievers offputting on its own, and I thought that looking forward to that day -- when untold souls, according to that belief, would be cast into eternal darkness -- was hateful.

Just to be clear, it's fine. My point was that 1 - one person's religious remark or joke or throwaway comment may be offensive or hurtful or "hateful" to another person, and 2 - when people are allowed to speak freely, people will be offended sometimes, and on balance I think that's okay.

[squark]

Thanks. And I was just stating my firm opinion. Squark's comment was scumbag-rude, and should not be allowed, and its wrong to encourage it. And i firmly believe that it should be protested, and certainly not affirmed by being quoted. And I called you on it because I think you are better than that.

Wait. What? I was just skimming this topic and saw this. What comment? Will read now and see what you're talking about, because I haven't even posted in this thread.



Edit: Yeah, I can't find anything. I think you may be attributing something to me that someone else said.

[mu4]

Well, first, that's not exactly true; the poll was edited after he made it. He started the thread to troll, and as is reflected in several responses in the thread (including mine), he originally listed the choices as "pro-life" or "pro-abortion." I believe some of his posts were deleted as well, but @mu4 or others would need to confirm that, and of course I don't know all of the reasoning for banning that member (though I do believe he was a troll).

That was a troll who did not make any posts except to spam/troll. This is a socionics forum not a place for religious solicitation. For what is worth, solicitation can be considered spam and I will ban for it. If community members have a cause or subject they might want help on, they're welcome to do it.

I am often quite annoyed at solicitation from various members about god or whatever but there are topic areas for that which can be appropriate.

Anglas is a member of the community and he isn't here to solicit or spam. What he said might be offensive but it wasn't personal and he's free to his opinion on Jesus. If people are offended well that's the way it is, deal. He hasn't made any personal attack with the comment.

Anyways this topic is getting off track and heated, and I will close the thread if people continue the personal attacks and flaming.

[Eliza Thomason]

Wait. What? I was just skimming this topic and saw this. What comment? Will read now and see what you're talking about, because I haven't even posted in this thread.



Edit: Yeah, I can't find anything. I think you may be attributing something to me that someone else said.

Yes, totally. I am so sorry. I had a huge lot going on here today, unexpected craziness drama, not having to do with me, but people I care about, and I feel so bad for people involved. Long story. Yet I wrote here when I had break in the action, but then many more interruptions, and then I saw I said squark instead of Anglas, and so I had to go back and edit, and I missed this one. Sorry! And thanks for being nice about it.

[Eliza Thomason]

You weren't trying to be offensive or hateful, I realize; I doubt you would ever think of it that way. But I was offended by some of the religious stuff you wrote, I believe in the Delta comedians thread. I find the idea of eternal damnation for nonbelievers off-putting on its own,

No, you honestly have me mixed-up with someone else, or, likely someone else's accusation that I think that. I know Subteigh keeps saying I think that and I have spent a lot of time saying that is NOT my view and NOT the Catholic view - its an issue I have given a LOT of thought about. Nonetheless Subteigh thinks that this is what Christians believe so he keeps saying it, as if I never corrected him on it, and thoroughly. So I don't correct him every time, since I have so many times already to no avail.

I do believe that eternal damnation exists however I have made it perfectly clear that I believe that people who are in Hell CHOOSE TO BE THERE. Even when they see God himself they choose to reject Him, because they see him as all-love and all-good and they DO NOT WANT. That's not hateful. I mean, God woudl be hateful if they said "I hate Goodness and I do not want Goodness in my eternity" and God said, "No, you have to do what I want, not what you want." That would not be love, or justice. Love and Justice respect free will.

If you want to see what I actually believe, This booklet (see link) says exactly what I believe as to how God sees those who reject him, to those who say there is no God - because they WANT there to be no God, and I guess they believe if they assert what they want to be true enough, it will actually become true. Yes, some people will never accept God in this life, and God knows their hearts, and many have good reason for sure, and God knows. Well, they will see Him and see then that He is Goodness, and they can choose goodness then - even after having wasted their entire life battling the plain truth. Unless they, by then, HATE goodness - then they won't choose it.

and I thought that looking forward to that day -- when untold souls, according to that belief, would be cast into eternal darkness -- was hateful.

You totally and completely have the wrong person. I have NEVER ever once said anything like that in my ENTIRE life, and I NEVER would. Even the worst people in history, the most disgusting child killer-torturer, is loved by God and He hopes for their eternal life in Heaven, and God would be ashamed of me and deeply grieved if I harbored such a thought in my mind even. So I do not think it, or say it - even concerning earth's worst. I am relieved when earth is relieved of a madman, but I do not wish the madman eternal damnation.And I have nothing to do with the decision anyway.

Just to be clear, it's fine. My point was that 1 - one person's religious remark or joke or throwaway comment may be offensive or hurtful or "hateful" to another person, and 2 - when people are allowed to speak freely, people will be offended sometimes, and on balance I think that's okay.

I dunno, wouldn't you find "F-u, Sapphire" to be offensive? Or, the same to someone very dear to you, who is all love, and does not deserve it. Like a baby. (because you have that lovely one in your avatar). Its not all relative. "F-U" is just offensive, no matter how you look at it, and its extra-offensive to trash God. People's deeply held beliefs should not be trashed, and their God should not be trashed. That's just normal polite society. And if people talked like that in their workplace, among decent people, they would LOSE THEIR JOBS.

[squark]

Yes, totally. I am so sorry. I had a huge lot going on here today, unexpected craziness drama, not having to do with me, but people I care about, and I feel so bad for people involved. Long story. Yet I wrote here when I had break in the action, but then many more interruptions, and then I saw I said squark instead of Anglas, and so I had to go back and edit, and I missed this one. Sorry! And thanks for being nice about it.

No problem.

[QuickTwist]

If there is a God (monotheism) we haven't found him yet. If there are many gods (polytheism) who's really in charge?

[Beautiful sky]

If there is a God (monotheism) we haven't found him yet. If there are many gods (polytheism) who's really in charge?

That's easy, the god of pizza

[QuickTwist]

That's easy, the god of pizza

But we eat pizza?!?! What kind of sick twisted being is running the show! No wonder the world's so messed up.

[Beautiful sky]

But we eat pizza?!?! What kind of sick twisted being is running the show! No wonder the world's so messed up.

So Much better than killing virgins. We can recreate pizza in all kinds of ways

[QuickTwist]

So Much better than killing virgins. We can recreate pizza in all kinds of ways

What happened before there was pizza though? How did everything hold together?

[Beautiful sky]

What happened before there was pizza though? How did everything hold together?

Well' there can never be something from nothing. Nothing is 0.000000000. There has to be something before something and that something is 0.0000001 and the something after that is 0.00000002 so befor the pizza god there was something like the egg came after the chicken. Same theory applies if you use linear logic. There was something. Can I explain it? No. But I can prove it with math.


Edit: I could be wrong about the something after the something being 0.0000002

[SongOfSapphire]

No, you honestly have me mixed-up with someone else, or, likely someone else's accusation that I think that. I know Subteigh keeps saying I think that and I have spent a lot of time saying that is NOT my view and NOT the Catholic view - its an issue I have given a LOT of thought about. Nonetheless Subteigh thinks that this is what Christians believe so he keeps saying it, as if I never corrected him on it, and thoroughly. So I don't correct him every time, since I have so many times already to no avail.

I do believe that eternal damnation exists however I have made it perfectly clear that I believe that people who are in Hell CHOOSE TO BE THERE. Even when they see God himself they choose to reject Him, because they see him as all-love and all-good and they DO NOT WANT. That's not hateful. I mean, God woudl be hateful if they said "I hate Goodness and I do not want Goodness in my eternity" and God said, "No, you have to do what I want, not what you want." That would not be love, or justice. Love and Justice respect free will.

If you want to see what I actually believe, This booklet (see link) says exactly what I believe as to how God sees those who reject him, to those who say there is no God - because they WANT there to be no God, and I guess they believe if they assert what they want to be true enough, it will actually become true. Yes, some people will never accept God in this life, and God knows their hearts, and many have good reason for sure, and God knows. Well, they will see Him and see then that He is Goodness, and they can choose goodness then - even after having wasted their entire life battling the plain truth. Unless they, by then, HATE goodness - then they won't choose it.

You totally and completely have the wrong person. I have NEVER ever once said anything like that in my ENTIRE life, and I NEVER would. Even the worst people in history, the most disgusting child killer-torturer, is loved by God and He hopes for their eternal life in Heaven, and God would be ashamed of me and deeply grieved if I harbored such a thought in my mind even. So I do not think it, or say it - even concerning earth's worst. I am relieved when earth is relieved of a madman, but I do not wish the madman eternal damnation.And I have nothing to do with the decision anyway.

I dunno, wouldn't you find "F-u, Sapphire" to be offensive? Or, the same to someone very dear to you, who is all love, and does not deserve it. Like a baby. (because you have that lovely one in your avatar). Its not all relative. "F-U" is just offensive, no matter how you look at it, and its extra-offensive to trash God. People's deeply held beliefs should not be trashed, and their God should not be trashed. That's just normal polite society. And if people talked like that in their workplace, among decent people, they would LOSE THEIR JOBS.

I might find it offensive, and that's getting right at my point. As I have stated clearly in my previous two posts, I, like you and probably most everyone, am offended from time to time. So what? That's life. But unlike saying, "Fuck you, Sapphire" or making mean comments about my child, as far as I can tell, no one who posted the images or comments you found offensive was aiming their message right at you, personally, so I don't see what gives you the right to name-call or limit what they can say...and that's probably why nothing was done when you complained to moderators.

It's better to operate in an environment where any- and everyone can be offended than in one where expression is limited by harsh rules w harsh punishment. There should be limits, imo, but those limits are closer to threats and actual abuse by way of personal attacks -- like what you are skating on the edge of here and above where you call other members scumbags (or stop just short).



Oh, and bc I feel a need to prove I'm not making things up, attached is a screenshot of the kind if thing I originally referenced about looking forward to the... removal, I guess, of all the people who are bad and therefore deserving of eternal damnation. I'm only including it so you know what I was referencing; I don't want to debate the ideas there bc as I have said, we will never agree. (Also, as I have said in this thread, I recognize you didn't intend it hatefully...which is important to note, as I doubt the people you got angry w above meant their posts hatefully either.)



image.jpg

[Eliza Thomason]

@sapphire, thanks for explaining that, yes, the screen shot helped me see where you are coming from and I would like to briefly explain what I meant by that - why I certainly did NOT mean that I look forward to anyone's eternal damnation - and I will do so without "debating ideas" - because am with you there -- I much prefer to understand other's ideas/points of view, vs. debating them, myself.). Also I will comment on other things you said, and that will be later as this is an unusual week ahead. Meanwhile, may God [if He exists!]richly bless you and that really dear little baby. (I don't think that's offensive to you but if it is do tell me).

[QuickTwist]

Well' there can never be something from nothing. Nothing is 0.000000000. There has to be something before something and that something is 0.0000001 and the something after that is 0.00000002 so befor the pizza god there was something like the egg came after the chicken. Same theory applies if you use linear logic. There was something. Can I explain it? No. But I can prove it with math.


Edit: I could be wrong about the something after the something being 0.0000002

But if the egg came after the chicken, when did the cock come?

[SongOfSapphire]

@sapphire, thanks for explaining that, yes, the screen shot helped me see where you are coming from and I would like to briefly explain what I meant by that - why I certainly did NOT mean that I look forward to anyone's eternal damnation - and I will do so without "debating ideas" - because am with you there -- I much prefer to understand other's ideas/points of view, vs. debating them, myself.). Also I will comment on other things you said, and that will be later as this is an unusual week ahead. Meanwhile, may God [if He exists!]richly bless you and that really dear little baby. (I don't think that's offensive to you but if it is do tell me).

Don't worry about following up If you say you didn't mean it that way, I believe you. I wasn't upset anyway; I just wanted to point out that people get offended all the time... and as this case shows sometimes it's unintentional or bc of a misinterpretation.

I just like free speech and think if people are allowed to talk about religion at all, they should be able to talk about it from all angles, including (for better or worse) saying or posting things agnostics, atheists, and devout believers of whatever faith might see as offensive.