Barack Obama's type (old discussions)

[Beautiful sky]

Yeah I think Clinton shows Alpha values, sure. He's sort of merry in a jovial way (not a dark way). He shows a lot of Fe for sure. And he seems more Si-valuing than Se-valuing. a LOT more. Heck, he almost ruined his career by pursuing Si.

Humanitarians are people concerned with the plight of humans (the plight of humans are for the humanists...mainly the dual combo Fi/Te -you know idealism with that regard.); I think alphas don't have these values because they focus on and

What he shows just doen't matter in my opinion; I think it's what he writes that is really important.

In the introduction Clinton speaks about his participation in church and involvement in giving activities. When he became interested in Hillary, his main emphasis was how she loved to be involved in community/cheritable efforts. In promoting peace, he suggests a more effective government; he, in the book actually uses and talks a lot about Te (methods for improving the world conditions for people).

Clinton over states a lot of facts in his book making it dry as toast...lol

On page 15, he speaks out the method of investing that the Gates Foundation followed for their goal and effert. He emphasizes the "game plan" and says it's easier to talk about it then to actually do it.

[Gilly]

Obama is too smooth to be an EII... and EIIs are not exactly the smoothest of types. Obama knows exactly what to say and how to act to get a certain kind of emotional reaction out of his audience. How is that not Fe? When obama got elected and when he gave his speech it moved some people to tears (lol). Again, how is that not Fe?

Of COURSE he "knows what to say;" everything he says is written by professional public speaking analysts, edited and scrutinized thoroughly, and probably recited tens of times before being spoken to the public. Being a good speaker is not necessarily indicative of Fe; you're missing the big picture.

[Gilly]

This is fucking futile. I can't teach you people to recognize types. I'm SO sorry for being a patronizing bastard; I promise I won't bother you all with my extensive practice, studies and experience for much longer. Christ al-fucking-mighty.

[Singu]

Of COURSE he "knows what to say;" everything he says is written by professional public speaking analysts, edited and scrutinized thoroughly, and probably recited tens of times before being spoken to the public. Being a good speaker is not necessarily indicative of Fe; you're missing the big picture.

And is this the kind of area that EIIs would be most concerned about? I don't think so. He is concerned about all the Fe stuff because he IS a Fe type. EIIs typically try to be more predictable and reliable like most IJs.

This is fucking futile. I can't teach you people to recognize types. I'm SO sorry for being a patronizing bastard; I promise I won't bother you all with my extensive practice, studies and experience for much longer. Christ al-fucking-mighty.

Again, . You're the one who is merely analyzing shallow mannerisms and behaviors, then saying that they're the irrefutable evidence of being a certain type. You suck, get a grip.

[marooned]

This is fucking futile. I can't teach you people to recognize types. I'm SO sorry for being a patronizing bastard; I promise I won't bother you all with my extensive practice, studies and experience for much longer. Christ al-fucking-mighty.

Why are you being this way? You can't make everyone agree with you on every person's type. And just because you have your "extensive practice, studies and experience" doesn't guarantee you're always going to be right. No one can be 100% right about this stuff. It's not even scientific! I added that last bit in to be dramatic.

[Gilly]

Sorry, but I know I'm right on this one, and I'm done trying to explain it to people who can't understand what I'm saying.

[Gilly]

And is this the kind of area that EIIs would be most concerned about? I don't think so. He is concerned about all the Fe stuff because he IS a Fe type. EIIs typically try to be more predictable and reliable like most IJs

HE IS PREDICTABLE, YOU INSUFFERABLE ******. HE FOCUSES ON PUBLIC SPEAKING BECAUSE HE'S A FUCKING POLITICIAN.

Again, . You're the one who is merely analyzing shallow mannerisms and behaviors, then saying that they're the irrefutable evidence of being a certain type. You suck, get a grip.

And what, pray tell, are you analyzing? You say he's Fe because he's an effective public speaker; I'm trying to point to factors that are actually indicative of type. Get fucked.

[silverchris9]

No, EII. I am supremely confident in this typing; he is literally the black version of my father, EII-Fi, and his wife is even like my mother, LSE.

I do think Michele is a Te-dominant. And their relationship makes a lot more sense if he is also delta. But he still seems like he displays an awful lot of Ni, focus on the meaning of events, rebranding the type of country America is (or claiming that it's always been that way)... and he's just so pleasant, and terribly likable--that reminds me so much of beta NFs. I guess charisma isn't type-related, but still. I guess he does seem a little fake, but again, it's hard to distinguish Fe fakeness from Fi fakeness. I suppose his is a low-energy fakeness, whereas Fe fakeness tends to be more UP and ACTIVE and ENERGETIC.

Eh. This would require a lot more effort and study than I'm willing to put in, and Obama is particularly hard to type because he is a consummate politician, and therefore it's hard to discern who he really is. I suspect that who he really is, is more Ni receptive to Se than Ne receptive to Si, but I could be wrong there. So now I don't know what his type is! Yay!

[Gilly]

I actually just offered at least a partial explanation to this in another thread I think Obama's sense of "meaning" is more derived from Aristocratic Fi, in terms of conceiving and actualizing a communitarian set of values that can bring people together, get them to cooperate, and give them the sense of "doing the right thing" (this is a phrase I think a lot of Fi valuers use). The "meaning" he offers is not a culminating sense of individual significance (Ni+Fe) rooted in direct participation in the necessary action dictated by collective interests (Se+Ti), but rather the sense of participation in collective significance based on accordance with contractual values (Ne+Fi) which dictate necessary action for the improvement of individuals' lives (Si+Te).

[Beautiful sky]

I actually just offered at least a partial explanation to this in another thread I think Obama's sense of "meaning" is more derived from Aristocratic Fi, in terms of conceiving and actualizing a communitarian set of values that can bring people together, get them to cooperate, and give them the sense of "doing the right thing" (this is a phrase I think a lot of Fi valuers use). The "meaning" he offers is not an underlying sense of individual significance (Fe+Ni) rooted in participation in the contractual collective purpose (Ti+Se), but rather the sense of collective significance based on contractual values (Fi+Ne) in light of its impact or improvement upon the lives of individuals (Te+Si).

What if these things are an influence of his wife, who wrote a huge article in a news magazine about the exact values that you state in the above?
And who I have said is EII type. The "rock" in him seems to have a bit of an influence don't you think?

[Singu]

Meh, I actually think that Michelle could also be IEI, or something similar. She seems to have some sort of a nervous emotional energy... Have you seen this speech she gave where she spoke about fear?



Some notable quotes: "When I get front of an audience, I get pumped up, because I'm passionate about this race... I'm passionate about my husband in this race..."

"There is something very special about this man..."

"Fear of this turning ugly..."

"We are in this war because we are told to be afraid."

"Because it was very unpopular not to be afraid, to talk about hope and possibility."

"...to talk about different unconventional voice."

"...he had a strange name, people said fear him, because he's different."

"...he was different... he was special..."

"Help us fight this fight to change, transform this country in a fundamental way. This chance won't come around again."

Does that sound anything like Te or Fi or Delta? I don't think so... it's very Beta. It's full of nervous and opportunistic Ni, which is basically the Beta attitude in need of change. She is TARGETING when to strike, and she knows the right time on when to strike, which basically the IEI's Ni. She is trying to get people to get pumped up to follow her in her direction. That is no Delta.

[Beautiful sky]

Se polr trying to push her point across.

Look at the total picture...it's not the "I support my husband because he's special and unique"; It's the sacrifice yourself for the goodness of every one else, which in her writings or other's accounts of her tell very well. "Self sacrificing martyr"-becoming the supporter of a lost cause.

There's nothing opportunistic about Michelle, who by the way gave up a lofty career to head a measely paying voluneer job.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009...left_a_bi.html

"And when I thought about the things that I cared about, the things that I was passionate about, service was always somewhere in there. I thought about the things that I did for enjoyment. They were always mentoring, working with other young people, trying to help them get to where I had -- I was to help them think about their lives differently. So I knew that service was always going to be a part of that passion. So my goal was to figure out how I could not do that in my spare time, but how I could make my work service."

[Singu]

Se polr trying to push her point across.

Look at the total picture...it's not the "I support my husband because he's special and unique"; It's the sacrifice yourself for the goodness of every one else, which in her writings or other's accounts of her tell very well. "Self sacrificing martyr"-becoming the supporter of a lost cause.

...And that's basically the Victimized attitude, not Infantile. Victims try to sacrifice themselves for the greater good (but they're not necessarily altruistic). She also talks about how it is a "war" or how they need to help her "fight the fight". Certainly, you could question her mentality at that time... but I also think that it's fairly typical of a Beta attitude to turn something into a "battlefield". Betas need to "fight"... for a cause.

[Suz]

Humanitarians are people concerned with the plight of humans (the plight of humans are for the humanists...mainly the dual combo Fi/Te -you know idealism with that regard.); I think alphas don't have these values because they focus on and

What he shows just doen't matter in my opinion; I think it's what he writes that is really important.

In the introduction Clinton speaks about his participation in church and involvement in giving activities. When he became interested in Hillary, his main emphasis was how she loved to be involved in community/cheritable efforts. In promoting peace, he suggests a more effective government; he, in the book actually uses and talks a lot about Te (methods for improving the world conditions for people).

Clinton over states a lot of facts in his book making it dry as toast...lol

On page 15, he speaks out the method of investing that the Gates Foundation followed for their goal and effert. He emphasizes the "game plan" and says it's easier to talk about it then to actually do it.

Maritsa, I know what the definition of "humanitarian" is.

And the point you are not getting (or willing to recognize) is that every type is concerned for the plight of humans in their own type-related way. e.g. Betas are also concerned for the plight of humans, but in a way that drives them to mobilize change. My ESE friend is very concerned about certain issues, such as pro-choice and women's rights; I would say she's a humanitarian but she's alpha (no mistaking it), very Fe and Si valuing.

You have to learn to think more abstractly when applying socionics concepts. You are too rigid.

[Beautiful sky]

...And that's basically the Victimized attitude, not Infantile. She also talks about how it is a "war" or how they need to help her "fight the fight". Certainly, you could question her mentality at that time... but I also think that it's fairly typical of a Beta attitude to turn something into a "battlefield". Betas need to "fight"... for a cause.

Victimized by what, he hopes to inspire people into helping others not feeling victimized and let down.

prone to initial doubts about intensity of own interest in another person -Doesn't show this

not always confident about revealing that interest -she is very confident.

inclined to focus on whether or not the other person might reciprocate the interest -she doesn't give a damn about this

inclined to question whether or not the other person's interest will remain constant with time -she doesn't show any of this...

preference for partners that provoke in the individual a certain sense of awe in terms of power, physical presence, and the like -she praises her husband a lot, which I do to because I believe in encouraging.

appreciation for the sense of power-play present when interacting with such -she doesn't say "oh it's so great so see you guys fight to win!" -that's sick

You get the rest: I'ts all a no
partners, with acceptance of a slight sense of superiority on the part of the
partner, without ever actually "submitting" to them
this takes the form of the individual somewhat expecting the partner to be "mean" on occasion
in the case of Victim males with female partners, this latter trait assumes a characteristic analogous to a "knight devoted to his princess"
inclination to openly admit to a relationship having been ended by the partner rather than by the individual himself

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, I know what the definition of "humanitarian" is.

And the point you are not getting (or willing to recognize) is that every type is concerned for the plight of humans in their own type-related way. e.g. Betas are also concerned for the plight of humans, but in a way that drives them to mobilize change. My ESE friend is very concerned about certain issues, such as pro-choice and women's rights; I would say she's a humanitarian but she's alpha (no mistaking it), very Fe and Si valuing.

You have to learn to think more abstractly when applying socionics concepts. You are too rigid.

Yeah and that is exactly what Obama is doing. He is driven to mobalize change, using systems, creating new systems. He talks a lot about old systems not working well to this effert and how new or other systems can work better.

[Suz]

Obama is too smooth to be an EII... and EIIs are not exactly the smoothest of types. Obama knows exactly what to say and how to act to get a certain kind of emotional reaction out of his audience. How is that not Fe? When obama got elected and when he gave his speech it moved some people to tears (lol). Again, how is that not Fe?

I feel this way too. I definitely see that talent in Obama. My sister is EII and wow she could never strive to emulate that. Heck, as an IEE i couldn't either.

[Suz]

Yeah and that is exactly what Obama is doing. He is driven to mobalize change, using systems, creating new systems. He talks a lot about old systems not working well to this effert and how new or other systems can work better.

zactly so he's beta. clinton was not quite like that. clinton was more laid back and did what he needed to do to be popular.

[Singu]

...I'm talking about the Socionic's category of the "Victim" types, which are the all Ni types.

[Beautiful sky]

...I'm talking about the Socionic's category of the "Victim" types, which are the all Ni types.

I just listed them for you and how the speach does not reflect any such things.

zactly so he's beta. clinton was not quite like that. clinton was more laid back and did what he needed to do to be popular.

Exactly, that's why I think Clinton was Delta.

I feel this way too. I definitely see that talent in Obama. My sister is EII and wow she could never strive to emulate that. Heck, as an IEE i couldn't either.

If you saw me making a speech, you can see the exact same thing in me...EII...

Fe women would show more Fe.

[Suz]

I just listed them for you and how the speach does not reflect any such things.



Exactly, that's why I think Clinton was Delta.



If you saw me making a speech, you can see the exact same thing in me...EII...

Fe women would show more Fe.
Penelope Cruz - Interview - Bing Video

And this is sort of why i dont think Clinton is Delta. He was a very charismatic orator and very attuned to Fe. But he is not beta, according to how i see him. so he's Alpha. ESE. In Delta, LSE and SLI are good orators but they use Te for that, not Fe, unlike clinton.

[Beautiful sky]

And this is sort of why i dont think Clinton is Delta. He was a very charismatic orator and very attuned to Fe. But he is not beta, according to how i see him. so he's Alpha. ESE.

But what is being "attuned to Fe" that you're saying?
What are you seeing that you are interpreting to be "attuned to Fe"?

[Suz]

But what is being "attuned to Fe" that you're saying?

Catering to the emotional feeling of the audience, and remarkable ability to influence it. Clinton was incredibly talented at that, which is why he was so incredibly popular even though he hardly did anything during his presidency. And which is why he got away with the whole Lewinsky thing and lying under oath. He's very charming. This is also why he is popular with the ladies. How many girlfriends did he have now?

[Beautiful sky]

Catering to the emotional feeling of the audience, and remarkable ability to influence it. Clinton was incredibly talented at that, which is why he was so incredibly popular even though he hardly did anything during his presidency. And which is why he got away with the whole Lewinsky thing and lying under oath. He's very charming. This is also why he is popular with the ladies. How many girlfriends did he have now?

She doesn't make anyone laugh, or cry, or snear, say funny words or jokes. Her argument is "don't be afraid" or "don't let fear rule you" I mean, how much more stait forward can you get as just saying it like that?

Si= lot's of sex, don't you remember my duals flirting and gropping and talking about sexual stuff, sexing?

For the same picture, I see president Bush (both the Bush's) as being ESTp; because they value honesty and not cheating, and not lying-big ticket ESTp value. They just don't say they value it, they actually do it. ESTj's may value honesty but guarantee you, I see them fudging very easily. They don't want to admit it because they want to look good and well and work towards certain standards and ideals they have about themselves, but they are "human" unlike ESTp's

Arnold on cheating and groping....

http://moderateindependent.com/v1i9guestwriter.htm

I can seal the deal by guaranteeing you that on my mother's life, I will NEVER hear Presidents Bush touch another woman except for their wives.

[Gilly]

Meh, I actually think that Michelle could also be IEI

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Go learn something and come back smarter before you get banned for exceeding my tolerance for idiocy.

[Singu]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Go learn something and come back smarter before you get banned for exceeding my tolerance for idiocy.

Another . Did you at least read my post? Come on, at least be fair, I'm actually giving a decent argument for her type. Don't be a dick for the sake of being a dick. I actually don't really give a whole lot of crap about this, but you seem to have some sort of a deep-seated issue about this.

[Gilly]

I'm sorry, I just can't help myself; intolerance is the only way I know how to repay insistent stupidity.

[Singu]

Do you actually have anything to say, or are you just content insulting people?

[Gilly]

Rather content, actually. If you could take anything from my words, you would have by now.

[Singu]

Ok... well, thanks for wasting my time... asshole. :wink:

You're weird.

[Gilly]

You'll love me some day.

[Suz]

She doesn't make anyone laugh, or cry, or snear, say funny words or jokes. Her argument is "don't be afraid" or "don't let fear rule you" I mean, how much more stait forward can you get as just saying it like that?

Si= lot's of sex, don't you remember my duals flirting and gropping and talking about sexual stuff, sexing?

For the same picture, I see president Bush (both the Bush's) as being ESTp; because they value honesty and not cheating, and not lying-big ticket ESTp value. They just don't say they value it, they actually do it. ESTj's may value honesty but guarantee you, I see them fudging very easily. They don't want to admit it because they want to look good and well and work towards certain standards and ideals they have about themselves, but they are "human" unlike ESTp's

Arnold on cheating and groping....

British Press Reports Schwarzenegger’s Groping And Affair With Former Little House on the Prairie Actress; When Will U.S. Media Do So?

I can seal the deal by guaranteeing you that on my mother's life, I will NEVER hear Presidents Bush touch another woman except for their wives.

Oh sorry I meant Bill Clinton, not Hillary. I definitely think Hillary is beta.