The documentaries may not be "full of it," but rather, it may be the interpretation of the data presented that's at issue. I do not mean to be rude, it's just that suggesting that you are presenting it as if the documentaries must be wrong for LII or EII to be considered, which is a wee bit silly. For must Russian Socionists, Jefferson is a clear LII. Socionics.us indicates that Thomas Jefferson was a solid LII benchmark for Russian Socionists, with a 100% convergence. The Stratievskaya LII description quotes Jefferson to describe the type. Jefferson is also a part of the Socioniko.net LII description. EII was a commonly mentioned type proposed by other boarders.Originally Posted by Ryu
Why do you think that he lacks the rationality of an IJ type?Someone who is poor at Se, reserved, intuitive even in the most classic sense, yes. Idealistic, yes. But I'd wager that he's not someone bound by the rationality of an IJ, of a dominant function like Ti or Fi. And I don't see his dual as a caregiver, particularly an ESE.
Would you mind elaborating on some of these points or pulling up sources that I could look at as well?It's always useful to see how people are in their weakness, how they break down, and handle stresses. I see his various exploits abroad, his personal bickerings in politics, his take on building his house, his relationships, and his own take on ethics and personal development as being ILI, maybe with EII being a second choice, but it never really crossed my mind prior to this thread.
A Te sense?I see him much more lacking and valuing Se (and Fi) than wanting Te/Fe+Si from someone else. The biggest blow to EII for me is that I don't see Fi matters being as consuming in his life as they would be to an EII; he is a very classic "NT".
I think his writings and wisdom, even if it seems well grounded in humanitarian things, is more 'sober' in the Te sense.
The LII has two benchmark names: the Descartes and the Robespierre. It's hard to imagine that this statement would inconsistent with Robespierre's own praxis."The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Copy to Clipboard
-- Thomas Jefferson
Most of this would not inconsistent with either EIIs or LIIs. LIIs want to create principles, theories, and ideological structures that are capable of withstanding the test of time. It's the ultimate testament to the quality of their internal logic.And not just because of that quote, either. And, even when writing the Declaration or other advices for the future, I see his actions as being very much based on trying to plot a 'best course' for the future, taking into various things like human interests, human nature, the development of the country (all his warnings about the federal reserve, banks, foreign relations, etc), and so on. I see him much more as a someone who would warn and try to prepare or advocate for things (which is a classic role for ILIs in my experience) than someone who would do that almost as an "auxiliary role" to take --- that is, I see LIIs and EIIs doing that, too, but I see them doing it differently (they seem more to do it based off of their ideological structure, rather than a vision and related obstacles. His advice seems a lot more gamma NT, which is more 'intent' on a path or vision or destination, rather than Ne based / deflective / option-oriented alpha/delta advice.
I will look up past discussions and other Socionists opinions on Jefferson's type to see if we can find where they are coming from. But I will also keep my eye and mind open as to his type.
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