That's not my impression, but which Beta NF do you have in mind (who do you think he's like)?Originally Posted by crazedratsshadow
That's not my impression, but which Beta NF do you have in mind (who do you think he's like)?
I can see the case for ILE too. The content of what's he's talking about in the video... "let's all have peace" seems IEI-like. However, the way he talks about switching peoples' mindset...seeing things in a different way, as in we all think this is how it works, but actually if we thought differently we could have peace now and forever....could be seen as static Ne.
I do notice that the formula of "you all think this way, but you could think this other way [which seems absurd]" is characteristic of base Ne types, and ILE types in particular.
Perhaps typing him is a little harder because we're used to ILE types in scientific examples.
In real life, people tend to mix themes that appear to relate to different quadras...I see it as sort of like "making connections in the mind."
I'll give my argument then. There's so much to consider in typing that I feel like I could write a book just on semantics/concepts and philosophy. I don't really like the idea of assigning modes of thought, like IEIs being dreamy, to the types rather than looking at perception. Even though that might be statistically true from the consensus of many people for the IEI type, someone could be IEI and not that dreamy. It's hard to accept such rationale without a firm fundamental concept to support it; otherwise I don't have a way to gauge how reasonable your conclusion is other than to say whether it fits into a system of typing thought or not.
It's really only a matter of opinion that IEI is equivalent to "let's all have peace" though. Ni by Jung is symbolic pattern matching/making of a reflective nature. I don't really see the symbolism in the way that Lennon thinks in his interviews or in his music either. He also has an aversion to questions that ask him to make generalizations about the people around him in one interview in a passive-aggressive reluctant manner (reluctant Ti, Te-valuing); the interviewer asked him if drugs are a problem in the industry and after saying he doesn't know rudely, he said none of the people he knows does drugs rather tersely as if this is something that has been used against him before and he's bitter about making such associations (I've seen this as a big characteristic of Ti PoLR and something even Galen periodically engages in). His ideas are also centralized around giving power to the people, explaining how a complex reality can be generalized into coming together to make the world a better place (Fi).
The idealism of a Ti should involve some form of impersonal reason because by the concept of splitting thinking/feeling Ti is an impersonal structure of thought. Like thinking socialism is a great idea because by reason it sounds great - we help each other by taking only what we need to be happy while helping others to get what they need to be happy. But ILE idealism appeals to an internal structure of logos, not one of pathos, which is what Lennon made a career doing.
Yeah, exactly. But he absorbs and reflects the emotional feelings of the people around him and used that as a force for his message and music. His arguments are very structured, closely resembling Ti, but it's not based on facts and is rather personal in his analysis. By convention creative Ti has a strong Te function in the ILE/SLE that engages and constantly informs its conclusions. How do you think of the concepts behind the elements then, specifically Ti?However, the way he talks about switching peoples' mindset...seeing things in a different way, as in we all think this is how it works, but actually if we thought differently we could have peace now and forever....could be seen as static Ne.
I do notice that the formula of "you all think this way, but you could think this other way [which seems absurd]" is characteristic of base Ne types, and ILE types in particular.
I haven't had much time to form a definite opinion of Lennon's type. Originally, I thought IEI not just because of an opinion that IEI is associated with having peace, but because at first glance the idea of changing the world with emphasis on the social aspects but not on the logical technicalities (e.g., what are the barriers to peace and how do we handle those) suggested both Beta/ethical.
But afterwards, I thought the intuition seems of a static type, as mentioned in my previous post.
From your post, at first I thought you were arguing for IEE, but I think you're actually arguing for LII (?).
The idea that "By convention creative Ti has a strong Te function in the ILE/SLE that engages and constantly informs its conclusions" is interesting. I know the 8th function is strong in model A and often considered stronger than the ignoring function. But does that mean that it's used constantly and is what an observer would primarily observe? I'd be interested in clarification or articles on that. It might explain why peoples' typings are constantly flipped from each other in terms of quadra.
I once thought that he was EIE; however, now I'm slightly more inclined to think that he's ESE - Hugo.
John Lennon is my favorite musician. I've read several books on him. (The one I'd recommend is "Lennon: A Life," which tells his entire story from childhood to Mark David Chapman.)
Personally, I think that Lennon's bias for Fe is obvious -- and it seems to be to everyone who's written thus far in this thread.
His songs, after "In My Life" when he came into his own, were either deeply felt or playful -- sometimes a bit caustic, but always with humor. He was very adept at making people feel certain emotions, which would be very strange for a ILE -- who is attracted to such people but does not possess such skill him/herself.
Yoko strikes me as being of Ij temperament, just as John strikes me as being of Ej temperament.
If one reads about John and Yoko, one learns things like they followed strict macrobiotic diets, that Lennon became a "househusband" for five years toward the end of the 70s, and those they were the most fulfilling years of his life... That when asked to write songs for an album, he would write them in a rush whereas Paul had his prepared months, even years in advance. (Lennon would complain that his songs were always "rushed," whereas George Martin -- a Delta, in my opinion -- took more time with Paul's, so Lennon complained.)
I don't believe that John and Paul were duals. They more likely had a "business" relationship, which turned increasingly to competition after their manager Brian Epstein - a INTj, in my opinion - died in the mid-60s. From Rubber Soul onward they only wrote 1 song together -- "I've Got A Feeling" on Let it Be, which was just a mash of two songs they'd both written apart. During that period, all of their other songs were either John, Paul, or George songs -- as opposed to "band" songs. (Ringo only wrote two songs while in the group.)
For the rest of his life, according to Yoko, John felt as though he was competing against Paul (and to lesser degrees, people like Bob Dylan and Paul Simon,) and he envied their successes.
Lennon enjoyed rousing company and became part of a group in the mid-70s that dubbed itself "The Hollywood vampires" -- Lennon, Keith Moon, Ringo, Alice Cooper, and Harry Nilsson, who would all drink themselves into oblivion at the Roxy on Sunset in LA (I think it's on Sunset.) John was addicted to heroin for awhile during the early 70s, as was Yoko. Yoko's addiction returned just before Lennon was shot.
All of this strikes me as ESE behavior... Exaggerated, but ESE behavior nonetheless.
Last edited by JuJu; 09-22-2011 at 06:59 AM.
Nah, I think he's IEE. All the songs I know of that he wrote himself were describing things statically and he comes off communicating that way as well. It seems to me he's generalizing the humanitarian existence of living.
These are some of his song lyrics:
compared with someone like Kurt Cobain that fit the dynamic symbolic nature of Ni.
I'm so happy
Cause today I found my friends
They're in my head
I'm so ugly
But that's ok, 'cause so are you
We've broke our mirrors
Sunday morning
Is everyday for all I care
And I'm not scared
Light my candles
In a daze 'cause I've found god
Yeah he he yeah
I'm so lonely and
That's ok, I shaved my head
And I'm not sad
And just maybe
I'm to blame for all I've heard
And I'm not sure
I'm so excited
I can't wait to meet you there
And I dont' care
I'm so horny but
That's ok, my will is good
Yeah he he yeah
I like it
I'm not gonna crack
I miss you
I'm not coming back
I love you
I'm not gonna crack
I killed you
I'm not coming back
I like it
I'm not gonna crack
I miss you
I'm not coming back
I love you
I'm not gonna crack
I killed you
I'm not coming backI admit Working Class Hero was a bit more Ni for John, but I think he was kind of depressed when he wrote it. Most of his songs don't have this style. Across the World was pretty Ni though, but he didn't write that by himself, so I don't know if it would be good material for building an argument with.Load up on guns and
Bring your friends
It's fun to lose
And to pretend
She's over bored
And self assured
Oh no, I know
A dirty word
hello, hello, hello, how low?
With the lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My Libido
Yeah
I'm worse at what I do best
And for this gift I feel blessed
Our little group has always been
And always will until the end
hello, hello, hello, how low?
With the lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My Libido
Yeah
And I forget
Just why I taste
Oh yeah, I guess it makes me smile
I found it hard
It's hard to find
Oh well, whatever, nevermind
hello, hello, hello, how low?
With the lights out it's less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My Libido
Yeah, a denial
A denial
A denial...
I mean, I don't know, I have a hard time communicating what I'm thinking, and sometimes I'm wrong, maybe everything I've said before this sounds stupid, but is this at least clear? Ni is like incomplete statements and symbolic association that evolve. Ne an idea that is more of a complete convincing or suggestive statement. Ne paints a mental picture that can closely resemble "ideas" at times. But it's not really that simply so. John seemed to be Ne over the other Jungian functions, although Ni would be my next best fit.
The other thing is, some people tend to want to explain things away with the demonstrative. And I'm not sure how to even talk about this because any assumption won't be completely correct. But if we look at type as genetic, then PoLR is a consequence of the unconscious exploration of the demonstrative function being 'hampered', as it would. In this light, your creative is really both extroverted and introverted, the unconscious part more likely being the catalyst for the flexible nature of the creative. What's interesting about this is that introverts can confuse themselves as thinking their demonstrative is an ego function; by the nature of extroversion, it would be more obvious for the extrovert not to misinterpret, essentially. Point is though, the unconscious nature of the demonstrative function isn't a light consideration because it's what forms the instinctual drive. And it's a big intuitive leap to grasp the PoLR from this aspect of resistance to your will; then the PoLR is more a projection of pain and insecurity than something you aren't capable of doing or feel weakness in. It's so easy for me to understand it this way.
As to the suggestion IEE : if indeed Lennon values Ne and not Ni (and I am open-minded to both suggestions,) in my opinion, what sticks out most about him to me is his adept use of Fe to alter a listeners perspective, or mood, (e.g. "Working Class Hero" as was cited above is a good example -- although I've read that Lennon labored intensely over that song to make it a modern "we shall overcome.") A more typical Lennon Fe song is "Hey Bulldog" off of the "Magical Mystery Tour" album, or "I Am The Walrus" -- they're extravagantly imaginative in a sort of free-association, yet cleverly formatted and thoughtful way (a la his hero, Lewis Carroll, or Dr. Seuss, for that matter,) which make them kind of 'in jokes.'
For Lennon, songs like "Imagine" and "All You Need Is Love" -- those for which he's become practically a secular saint in the West -- were rare compared with songs like, say, "Meat City" from his late period solo career. The latter doesn't mean much -- and Lennon, I believe, did that on purpose so as not to make his records too "heavy." A song like "Hey Buldog" has nearly nonsense lyrics with a refrain of "You can talk to me," (meaningful) and "I Am The Walrus" -- well, it's a classic -- and I think that it says a lot that this song was Lennon's personal favorite that he'd written in the Beatles. Both songs are amusing, and somewhat goofy, and wildly imaginative -- in the vein of Lennon's artistic hero, Lewis Carroll, or to give an American example, Dr. Seuss.
When Lennon did try to make a "heavy" record -- it was called "Sometime in New York City" and was his third solo release -- it fell flat. He said that he considered it a snapshot of the (ugly) times and that it was meant to be listened to like one would read a newspaper... Like a newspaper, many of his fans felt like maybe it was best to throw away after the first go at it. (In fact, Yoko sounds about as good as John on that one with songs like "Angela.") It contains none of the imagination one expects from Lennon, and only Dylan-esque protest songs, e.g. "Luck of the Irish."
John Lennon's career waned as the 70s progressed -- albeit with 1 big hit that become a #1 due largely to the presence of Lennon's good friend and potential dual, Elton John, (i.e. "Whatever Gets You Through the Night.") After that, realizing that he was artistically spent, he took off 5 years and became a househusband to Yoko and Sean.
As his later song "Watching the Wheels" pointed out, he "no longer [wanted to] play the game."
Personally, I would put the chances of Lennon as IEE at medium, with - in my opinion - ILE, ESE, and EIE being better suggestions... Lennon's Fe, I think, is too prominent in both his work and in his interviews for him to be of a "Serious" quadra.
Last edited by JuJu; 09-22-2011 at 08:43 AM. Reason: forgot a few things.
Wait let me get this straight...you think Paul was LSE? Wtf?
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
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