Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

[Animal]

Based on what we know, ENTp makes sense. More sense, IMO, than ESTp.

[Rocky]

Mozart reminds me of modern day composer (imo, estp) Omar Rodriguez-lopez, because they both seem write complex/structured stuff, but do it with an "I don't give a fuck" edgy attitude. At least this was my impression of Mozart.

[Jonathan]

To be honest entp was my second choice, since that and estp are the only two types that make any rational sense, though entp is still a longer shot. The painstakingly precise structure of his work would suggest to me Ti actually, along with his meaness, and his attitude to the world is most definately exxp, with more of an emphasis of Se>Ne.

Well we agree on Ep. I just don't see where adjectives like "edgy" and so forth are helpful. Not sure who would be edgier...ESTp or ENTp.

Of course, I never met him personally; can you give me an example of his meanness? And even if he was mean to people, how does that support Se>Ne? Is that what Se is? Being mean?

Anyhow, I agree with Kristiina that the texture of the music argues against Se. It's not just the lightness, exactly; it's the fact that through the simplicity, he draws attention to what he can do with possibilities. It seems to me that an Se type would try to "paint" more painstakingly the richness of a particular environment, sort of like Wagner.

As to ENTp....I find that possible; but I would warn against saying that structure and clarity can only come from T. I think there's a strong case for Fi > Fe.

[Rocky]

Of course, I never met him personally; can you give me an example of his meanness? And even if he was mean to people, how does that support Se>Ne? Is that what Se is? Being mean?

No, I was saying that the meanness= Ti.

[Jonathan]

Of course, I never met him personally; can you give me an example of his meanness? And even if he was mean to people, how does that support Se>Ne? Is that what Se is? Being mean?

No, I was saying that the meanness= Ti.

Well, I don't agree that meanness = Ti, but weak F could be associated with a cold personality.

But where does this idea that he was mean come from? Surely you're not basing that on the movie Amadeus? Does anyone have historical accounts to share that prove that he was such a mean person? Okay, I remember hearing that there was something where he played a trick on a particularly arrogant horn player by purposely writing in notes that sounded like mistakes. (I don't have a verified source on that.) He also wrote a piece of music poking fun at qualities he found in what he considered to be bad music.

So it seems that other people's arrogance bothered him, and that he liked to make fun. Does that prove he was T though?

In his letters he seems to come off as a warm person who cared about people. Here's a sample...

Munich, Oct. 11, 1777.

WHY have I not as yet written anything about Misliweczeck? [See
No. 43.] Because I was only too glad not to think of him; for
when he is spoken of I invariably hear how highly he praises me,
and what a kind and true friend he is of mine; but then follow
pity and lamentation. He was described to me, and deeply was I
distressed. How could I bear that Misliweczeck, my intimate
friend, should be in the same town, nay, even in the same
corner of the world with me, and neither see him nor speak to
him? Impossible! so I resolved to go to visit him. On the
previous day, I called on the manager of the Duke's Hospital to
ask if I might see my friend in the garden, which I thought best,
though the doctors assured me there was no longer any risk of
infection. The manager agreed to my proposal, and said I should
find him in the garden between eleven and twelve o'clock, and, if
he was not there when I came, to send for him. Next day I went
with Herr von Hamm, secretary in the Crown Office, (of whom I
shall speak presently,) and mamma to the Duke's Hospital. Mamma
went into the Hospital church, and we into the garden.
Misliweczeck was not there, so we sent him a message. I saw him
coming across, and knew him at once from his manner of walking. I
must tell you that he had already sent me his remembrances by
Herr Heller, a violoncello-player, and begged me to visit him
before I left Munich. When he came up to me, we shook hands
cordially. "You see," said he, "how unfortunate I am." These
words and his appearance, which papa is already aware of from
description, so went to my heart that I could only say, with
tears in my eyes, "I pity you from my heart, my dear friend." He
saw how deeply I was affected, so rejoined quite cheerfully, "Now
tell me what you are doing; when I heard that you were in Munich,
I could scarcely believe it; how could Mozart be here and not
long ago have come to see me?" "I hope you will forgive me, but I
had such a number of visits to make, and I have so many kind
friends here." "I feel quite sure that you have indeed many kind
friends, but a truer friend than myself you cannot have." He
asked me whether papa had told me anything of a letter he had
received. I said, "Yes, he did write to me," (I was quite
confused, and trembled so much in every limb that I could
scarcely speak,) "but he gave me no details." He then told me
that Signor Gaetano Santoro, the Neapolitan impresario, was
obliged, owing to impegni and protezione, to give the composition
of the opera for this Carnival to a certain Maestro Valentini;
but he added, "Next year he has three at liberty, one of which is
to be at my service. But as I have already composed six times for
Naples, I don't in the least mind undertaking the less promising
one, and making over to you the best libretto, viz. the one for
the Carnival. God knows whether I shall be able to travel by that
time, but if not, I shall send back the scrittura. The company
for next year is good, being all people whom I have recommended.
You must know that I have such influence in Naples that, when I
say engage such a one, they do so at once." Marquesi is the primo
uomo, whom he, and indeed all Munich too, praises very highly;
Marchiani is a good prima donna; and there is a tenor, whose name
I cannot recall, but Misliweczeck says he is the best in all
Italy. He also said, "I do beg of you to go to Italy; there one
is esteemed and highly prized." And in truth he is right. When I
come to reflect on the subject, in no country have I received
such honors, or been so esteemed, as in Italy, and nothing
contributes more to a man's fame than to have written Italian
operas, and especially for Naples. He said he would write a
letter for me to Santoro, which I was to copy out when I went to
see him next day; but finding it impossible to return, he sent me
a sketch of the letter to-day. I was told that when Misliweczeck
heard people here speaking of Becke, or other performers on the
piano, he invariably said, "Let no one deceive himself; none can
play like Mozart; in Italy, where the greatest masters are, they
speak of no one but Mozart; when his name is mentioned, not a
word is said of others." I can now write the letter to Naples
when I please; but, indeed, the sooner the better. I should,
however, first like to have the opinion of that highly discreet
Hofcapellmeister, Herr von Mozart. I have the most ardent desire
to write another opera. The distance is certainly great, but the
period is still a long way off when I am to write this opera, and
there may be many changes before then. I think I might at all
events undertake it. If, in the mean time, I get no situation,
eh, bien! I shall then have a resource in Italy. I am at all
events certain to receive 100 ducats in the Carnival; and when I
have once written for Naples I shall be sought for everywhere. As
papa well knows, there is an opera buffa in Naples in spring,
summer, and autumn, for which I might write for the sake of
practice, not to be quite idle. It is true that there is not much
to be got by this, but still there is something, and it would be
the means of gaining more honor and reputation than by giving a
hundred concerts in Germany, and I am far happier when I have
something to compose, which is my chief delight and passion; and
if I get a situation anywhere, or have hopes of one, the
scrittura would be a great recommendation to me, and excite a
sensation, and cause me to be more thought of. This is mere talk,
but still I say what is in my heart. If papa gives me any good
grounds to show that I am wrong, then I will give it up, though,
I own, reluctantly. Even when I hear an opera discussed, or am in
a theatre myself and hear voices, oh! I really am beside myself!

[Rocky]

But where does this idea that he was mean come from? Surely you're not basing that on the movie Amadeus?

I've never even heard of the movie... my opinions based on his letters and what I've heard other people describe him as.

[Jonathan]

But where does this idea that he was mean come from? Surely you're not basing that on the movie Amadeus?

I've never even heard of the movie... my opinions based on his letters and what I've heard other people describe him as.

Fair enough...but I'm still wondering what you saw that made you think he was mean...and an ESTp.

Here's the version of ESTp on Dmitri's site...I'm wondering how this fits. I have trouble seeing Mozart as a dispassionate political maneuverer as described here. But I'd be interested in any evidence.

1. The end result. This is the only thing that interests him. All he needs to achieve the final result he considers to be his vested interests. He is a strong-willed, determined person. "If stars shine at night – then somebody wanted it". With all his appearance he demonstrates he is far from being ostentatious, does not care for the impression he makes with others. “I did not understand, please repeat." – used to say Sergey Korolyov, the mastermind of the Soviet space technology. Few of Soviet top executives had the guts to ask this from Beria, the head of the Soviet secret police. All The Commander does is performed with ardor, passionately and must be brought to its conclusion. He has the personality of an untamed struggler, who must come out on top no matter what the cost. "One should not avoid difficulties! One needs to learn how to overcome them" is his motto.

2. Die Hard. The expression "severe but just" became already trivial about this sort of persons. Marshal Zhukov was a really tough person, but only he could say to Stalin: "If you believe that the Head of the Chief Headquarters is capable only of talking gibberish, then he has no reason to be here. I ask you to relieve me of my rank as the Head of the Chief Headquarters and to send to the front". He has no back thoughts about his right to manage other people. Even taking into account his love to collegial discussion of issues, he always reserves the last sentence for himself. This is usually compensated by profound passion for his cause and the ability to seed the same enthusiasm in others.

3. A fine tactician. He quickly grasps the current situation and distribution of power, makes a decision and acts. He is capable of political maneuvering but never forgets his line. He possesses powerful logic function, but this kind of logic is determined and thus biased, its purpose isn’t philosophical speculations but the creative search for the shortcut to finding a solution. It is easier for him to concede his logic than his goal.

4. Dispassionate. He seldom gives in to fear, hatred, and other negative emotions, rarely gets surprised and rarely envies. The more dangerous the situation, the more self-disciplined and resolute he becomes.

5. He does not like to speak about feelings: this is not his line. And if by chance such words slip out, he feels as if he betrayed himself. He is afraid of emotional love, considering it an undeserved luxury. He is anxious of other feelings as well. Perceiving others to be just like him, he has no doubt that he may be desired, but he is seldom sure he can also be loved. He needs his partner’s emotional support and submits his emotions to him. However, in practical activity he never tends to adaptation, but only to dictation.

[tcaudilllg]

I know myself, and I have such a sense of religion that I shall never do anything which I would not do before the whole world; but I am alarmed at the very thoughts of being in the society of people, during my journey, whose mode of thinking is so entirely different from mine (and from that of all good people). But of course they must do as they please. I have no heart to travel with them, nor could I enjoy one pleasant hour, nor know what to talk about; for, in short, I have no great confidence in them. Friends who have no religion cannot be long our friends.

Based on this quote and dual-type theory, ENTp-ENFj is my initial impression.

[Phaedrus]

ENTp is a very likely type for Mozart.

[Blaze]

i thought he'd been typed enfp.

[Rocky]

definately not a feeler

[Phaedrus]

i thought he'd been typed enfp.

Yes, he has. But ENTp is probably still just as likely. A lot of things can be said about Mozart's personality and his music. A possible characterization of the latter is that is a combination of structure and merriment.

[Ms. Kensington]

he has that bitchy xxFp vibe haha, but not from this source. I could see ExFp. But by the quote, could also be ENTp or ENFj.

[Blaze]

he has that bitchy xxFp vibe haha, but not from this source. I could see ExFp. But by the quote, could also be ENTp or ENFj.

.....bitchy Fp vibe.....LOL

[tcaudilllg]

ENTp-INFj... I think that's where I'm staying.

I confused the exertion ego with the id.

[Amber]

one of my least fav composers, Ep temperament, probably a Sensor

[Olly From Wally World]

I know they type him commonly as some sort of type 7.

[Jake]

ILE

[Chae]

Agree with you and phantom, some ILE Sx/Sp 7w8 type of sir

“Oh my ass burns like fire!” - Si DS?

[strrrng]

ILE based on VI, SEI based on music. he's either unhealthily Si-DS or a pissed off E4, lol.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

have been listening to Requiem again just now. I think he was an IEI, but EIE could also be a possibility. I'm heavily leaning towards the former, though. ILE and IEE don't make much sense to me, since they have surpressed Ni.

[para]

Ne!

[Dauphin]

SEE, perhaps. Regardless of type, he seemed like a good soul.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

hmm SEE with one dimensional Ni, I can't see that at all. I think that he valued Se, often dressing in elegant clothings or buying expensive things, but I think it was Se as suggestive function. many of his characteristics don't really apply to Ne valuing types.

[Marep]

Ne dom

[The Reality Denialist]

I really fail to see Ne base. These types do not really surrend themselves to a work like that unless they can show some peculiar utility in it and even then it would not be comprehensive. Let's say this is not much of research related activity or externalizing attention.

EIE could work.

But SEE might work, I have no clue what childhood diseases can cause in long tern.

[on a peaceful hiatus]

I really fail to see Ne base. These types do not really surrend themselves to a work like that unless they can show some peculiar utility in it and even then it would not be comprehensive. Let's say this is not much of research related activity or externalizing attention.

EIE could work.

But SEE might work, I have no clue what childhood diseases can cause in long tern.

I think that Ni is absolutely necessary to write the music mozart created. ILE have it as very weak and surpressed 7th function, their art usually looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-qqrGtlHkg

(this is an exaggeration of course, but for the same reason I also doubt that Leonardo da Vinci was an ILE).

one thing that speaks against EIE for me is that he didn't care much about his status.

"He was named Knight of the Golden Spur in Rome by Pope Clement XIV in 1770, but he never made use of the privilege of calling himself a Knight."

I think IEI makes the most sense for him, they are very prone to waste money on trivial things too.

[perpetuus]

NO NO NO let him be ESI so the MBTI ISFPs can continue to feel good about claiming him. They need this one. I mean, who else do they have, um Bob Dylan and Bowie? Phhsssssh


IEEs and ILEs already have enough geniuses and savants in their famouses lists

[on a peaceful hiatus]

I agree with Dylan, but Bowie was an EIE.

[The Reality Denialist]

I think IEI makes the most sense for him, they are very prone to waste money on trivial things too.

And 98 % of IEi's are into scat perversions. Do not come and state that you belong to the 2 %, please.

[perpetuus]

I agree with Dylan, but Bowie was an EIE.

goddammit, shut up and let him be ESI too

[Marep]

I agree with Dylan, but Bowie was an EIE.

He was heavily into drugs, and drugs are capable of altering one's personality (and type).

What is some drugs make you behave EIE-like, even if you aren't one?

[ashlesha]

I haven't seen amadeus and don't listen to classical but the quotes here are entertaining as hell and I claim him as a compatible type (not that my feelings about his quotes mean shit for real)

[The Reality Denialist]

I think that Ni is absolutely necessary to write the music mozart created. ILE have it as very weak and surpressed 7th function, their art usually looks like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-qqrGtlHkg

I think that looks LII because it really emphasizes Si in weird places and lacks absurd dramatic elements. Also the holographic panoramic view.

[khcs]

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - ENFJ - Hamlet