No. If you will have sex out of marriage, I'm not surprised why you'd like the idea of abortion. Makes your fun quick and easy. No consequences, what a perfect world. Keep on dreaming baby.Originally Posted by Baby
ProChoice
ProLife
indifferent
No. If you will have sex out of marriage, I'm not surprised why you'd like the idea of abortion. Makes your fun quick and easy. No consequences, what a perfect world. Keep on dreaming baby.
D-SEI9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I don't look down on anyone.
I have no grounds to.
I've done bad things and I know it...I'd never look down on someone for doing bad stuff...specially if they didn't think they were doing anything wrong.
We all mess up. That's life.
Some people I would look down on, obvious whores of both genders. Your post is sincere, but this is the game that we're playing today. Sex all around us, no problem with having sex sometimes, it's all fun right?
Really, I think these people are victims of a manipulative society which brainwashes them to seek pleasure 24/7, and remove all consequences of these actions.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
See Kam? Look how intelligent Mime is!
Stop being so damn judgmental.
How can someone be a bad person for being raised in a different way than you?
You have your beliefs. That's all they are though.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
quite simply, it's their ideas which are bad. Cliche no?How can someone be a bad person for being raised in a different way than you?
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I think it's not about being perfect, Mime - just about facing the fact that there will be consequences.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
I'm going to try to explain my position in hopes that you'll see why I said what I said, because I think you're misunderstanding me.
I fully believe in responsibility and accountability in sexual behavior. Sex is not to be taken lightly, and neither is the responsibility of potentially becoming the conduit for a human life. HOWEVER, I don't believe women feel free to accept that responsibility in today's climate of stigmatization. Parents project judgment onto their daughters. Their peers and teachers do likewise. There is no support system for young parents. Should they choose to have the child, they look forward to facing poverty, ostracization, and losing out on their dreams. None of which is at all conducive to the well-being of the child, I might add. And this reality has only served to perpetuate the practice of abortion. Why do you think there is such controversy surrounding the issue of parental consent in obtaining an abortion? Given such grim prospects for both themselves and their child, is it any surprise that these young women are opting for an abortion?
If you actually want to see abortion go away, instead of merely criminalizing it which will do very little to deter the practice, you need to temper your views with tolerance for those who may not share your particular values or beliefs. Unlike the vast majority of self-professing "pro-life" advocates I have met, I am interested in far more than merely paying lip-service to some moral code. I actually want to see a world in which abortion will no longer be necessary unless for medical reasons.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Not that I think that this is an excuse for us to do whatever we want. It's not. At all. I still try as hard as I can to do what's right.
Okay, think about this.
You know how some religions say that if you don't follow their them strictly, you go to hell?
It is ridiculous.
What about the people who never heard of these religions and would therefore go to hell because they were not informed?
How can someone be a bad person for being raised a different way?
We are only a product of what society makes us.
You are a product of your parents and their beliefs Kam.
And no offense, but that doesn't mean they are right.
And also, I'm the one who feels sorry for you.
Because I am lucky to grow up with parents who did not force anything on me.
Every mistake I have made and every decision I have came to have been my own and no one else's.
I believe in Choice because of my own logic and judgement.
You're only Pro Life because of your parents, doe.
As much as you hate to admit it.
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
of course.
You're wrong doe. I am extremely proud of what my parents have taught me about morality and common decency. You are on the losing side of the bargain, parents who didn't care enough to teach you anything worthwhile and the inability to understand it. I read your posts, and I'm never surprised in the slightest. There is worth in decency.
I'm glad I believe in something.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I know it was hypothetical ... but I still find your ideas disturbing. Saying that you would sacrifice the rights of women for the good of the 'human species' sounds very much like communism to me. It should be up to the individual and only the individual whether or not they want to contribute to the society at large. The 'rights of the whole world' are the rights of so many billion individual people - how can you lump all of those individual rights into 'the rights of the whole'? Why should the minority suffer for the sake of the majority? The minority is made of individual people just like the majority. No one person's rights should be dismissed because they happen to be part of a minority.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
For the record, I cast my vote in as "Pro-Life" but absolutely NOT of the Kamangir variety. Please read my posts for elaboration.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Are you trying to attack me on a personal level?
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
He's from China. Where there is no free will, only power.
And unfortunately he believes it all.
Only your Fi PoLR.Are you trying to attack me on a personal level?
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
there's nothing wrong with China fool. at least nothing more than the rest of the world. Also Hkkmr and Anamericancer are both kickass people that you shouldn't mess with!
Bionicogoat dualities +2
Kam dualities -2
You're seriously fucked up.
You're also a complete asshole and I say this with complete seriousness.
<3there's nothing wrong with China fool. at least nothing more than the rest of the world. Also Hkkmr and Anamericancer are both kickass people that you shouldn't mess with!
Bionicogoat dualities +2
Kam dualities -2
maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
go ask the frog what the scorpion knows
I'll leave you to your own devices allie.
Really baby, it is the American culture which promotes the sex and glorifies beauty. Pregnancy isn't really beautiful, though I am sure someone will say it is, and w/e. So what do you do? Have an abortion. Easy, relatively cheap, it's great.
Therefore, I cannot necessarily blame the people for acting this way and being so conductive to abortion. It's been ingrained in us for a long time you know? As I said in an earlier post, they're all victims of this society. And I leave you with that.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
This is getting out of hand. Why do we have to attack each other? Let's face it - most of us feel strongly about this abortion issue and we're not going to compromise our beliefs. There is no value in continuing this argument whatsoever - esp in a forum situation like this where it's very easy to misinterpret people's intentions. Let's be a little understanding here.
"Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."
"Because I can and it's free" <--- ENTp quote.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
???
An ENTp I know says that whenever he does something silly/stupid and you ask him why.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying... Was this a response to my post? Are you saying you don't think anything can be done beyond criminalizing abortion because people have been conditioned to ignore their responsibility? Because, if so, I don't really see any evidence for this... at least not in the way I think you meant it.
Certainly, I think that there is definitely evidence that people have come to see sex as little more than some sort of recreational drug, but the problem is far more complicated than this "American society is depraved" claptrap that people will throw around. The situation is much more nuanced than that. I think it has more to due with a society in which individuals share little in the way of common values besides consumerism, than any intentionally "malicious society." But the issue here, again, is abortion in particular, and I think a great number of abortions can be (ahem) aborted if society was better equipt to deal with unexpected children. The LAST thing these people need is someone on their case, pontificating moral indignations at them. In fact, that might actually be the straw that breaks the camel's back that convinces them to go ahead with the operation.
Also, abortion is not just a phenomenon of 20th/21st century American society. It has been around since ancient times.
Last edited by Animal; 04-05-2008 at 05:36 AM.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
now, I am not saying "OMG CRIMINALIZE ABORTION NOW" It has its' benefits for sure. It should be used as a tool of last resort, in serious cases, which have been mentioned.
But the basis behind the "pro-choice" position as I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the woman has total control over her body, and how dare someone say that fetus in my belly deserves to live, it's my body. Then the question of killing a living thing(or if it's living). We can never be sure.
Now, I firmly believe that sex is powerful, and it deserves respect. I am deeply distraught at how sex has been spread and normalized. I went to a kid's play(The Ugly Duckling) a couple years ago, there were tons of sexual references in there, and there were kids (6-10) in there. And if you have sex(which you should, because everyone else is on tv and your friends too), there is always the chance of getting pregnant. That is a no-no, who wants pregnancy at 15-16? No one I think.
So instead of sitting it out and being taking responsibility for that night of fun, we choose to abort it. Once the girl is like "whoo, thank god that's out"(if the abortion didn't scar her), she just learned sex is fun and has no consequences whatsoever(barring STDS). This might sound a little extreme, but I think this happens.
This is what I see. People having sex for fun, and then when it is time to literally reap what we sow, we call foul. It teaches teenagers that birth and life is a bit of a joke, which I don't like.
Really, I don't like criminalizing anything, because the law doesn't play games either, and it's firm and in stone. What I would like to see is an lessening on the "OMG sex is so sexy omg wanna have sex" attitude we see everywhere. That is where the need for abortion starts.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
Okay, I see what you mean. I agree that a big issue is that we've sort of separated the act of sex from its ultimate result - kids. As as a result, it's become recreation estranged from any potential repercussions when really, you're playing with fire.
One big factor is that our society has changed, but our biology hasn't. We're genetically programmed to be sexually active/mature by the early to mid teens. In fact, in early times up until the Industrial revolution in Europe, society was set up so people could get married a whole lot earlier and had kids a whole lot younger. (Romeo and Juliet were supposed to be 14 and 15 or so, for example, and they got married and even had sex.) This isn't possible any more, and in a lot of ways this is a direct result of the industrialization of our societies.
Back then, people didn't have to worry about starting from zero and getting a career off the ground before starting a family. They either already had money to begin with (the aristocracy/leisure classes in Europe) or they were working for/apprenticed to people who provided their sustenance from a very young age. The working class actually changed before the rich did, in this aspect. Aristocrats were still getting married in their late teens as late as Victorian times. But the American "self made man" (and now, the "self made woman") is all about starting from scratch and working your way up. By the time we are financially stable, we don't have long before the optimal window for bearing children has passed (by about 28-35, in most cases).
So how do we reconcile what our biology has programmed us to do for millenia and how our society has set up for us for a couple centuries? I don't think we can work out these biological kinks for at least another few centuries, and until then, kids will still be having sex too early for society to cope with it. That's why I put more emphasis on placing a support system there for when they do concieve a child, rather than thinking of it in terms of society or criminalization. Biology > social pressures, unfortunately, and until we evolve to accomodate this shift, we'll always have to deal with these things.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Man I agree totally. That was an excellently typed piece. That is why sometimes I wish I could get married NOW and have a job so I could take care of my "urges" in a marital situation, because I'm not for premarital sex. But then I think if that did happen, would I be ready? I don't think so.
I think in addition to just pushing the biological timeline, we've pushed maturity also. I'm sure that those 15-16 year olds 200 years ago were very capable of taking care of a family and a job. Now, we have 18-20 years olds who are pretty immature in many different ways. We adjusted maturity to marriage, which is interesting.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
I really feel someone ought to post this and I'm proud to post it myself
EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
E3 (probably 3w4)
Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/
nice find, it was humourous. Are Catholics anti-contraceptives? I never knew that.
D-SEI
This is me and my dual being scientific together
No, because contraceptives kill the fertilised Embryo (the pill) and besides most pro-lifers are usually against any contraceptives for religious reasons. And you are taking a side by saying they shouldn't campaign against abortion!
Last edited by Cyclops; 04-05-2008 at 10:02 AM.
yes
okay, but the side i am taking is not one listed, so shut up and stop smiling.No, because contraceptives kill the fertilised Embryo (the pill) and besides most pro-lifers are usually against any contraceptives for religious reasons. And you are taking a side by saying they shouldn't campaign against abortion!
jk.
asd
People are going to both kill fetuses and raise unwanted children regardless of what I think.
SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype
yay! so glad to see this thread rise up from the depths!
Werd. So let's just eat Cheetos and call it a day.
This debate seems irrational and thus, intractible. We cannot answer when life begins even more than we can answer when consciousness begins. Should life that cannot survive without a host be respected? Discojoe's argument is quite sound in this regard.
I don't think that people who want to become pregnant just to destroy life should be allowed even to become pregnant.... One solution to the debate might be to have a woman who is pregnant undertake anesthesia until the baby has come to term... obviously that's draconian and unrealistic.
Let's consider at the last, that there are numerous medical situations in which a fetus may not come to term. The religious may argue that God means for every person concieved to be born... but who are we to determine the degree to which life should be safeguarded apart from our own interests? What is the difference between a .... Yeah it just gets into the "people should conduct themselves in ways most beneficial to life" thought strata from that point, but the quality of life is important too and those unrepentent sinners, quite frankly, who assert that one should safeguard produced life WITHOUT committing to its quality are asking for more than is fair from the standpoint of consciousness' right to live in a minimum of stress. You can't have it both ways, damned ones.
The results of this pole might be a little bit more interesting if each one of those answers was further divided into an F type or T type....
ENTP:wink:
ALPHA
what do you think F/T types would pick?
i personally think this is not very much affected whether someone is F/T.
INTp
sx/sp
Dead topic should stay dead.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Adoption. Argument over.
ILE
7w8 so/sp
Very busy with work. Only kind of around.
Um ... WTF?
Maybe you should restate this ... 'cause it sounds like you're saying that some women *want* to get pregnant because they *want* to have an abortion.
That I have never heard of.
Now, I did once know a couple who were so lazy about birth control that they had 3 abortions in one year ... even though I'm pro-choice, I find that reprehensible, and I think that would probably be grounds for sterilization (for which? how about both). And no, unfortunately, this is not some urban myth I read in an email forward ... this was an ex-boyfriend and the next girl he dated after me. Yikes, yikes, yikes.
Is this what you were getting at? Women who use abortion *instead* of birth control?
SLI
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