Fi PoLR sounds like a joke to me

[kannonzak]

Correct me if i wrong about anything.


I guess i feel this annoyance every time people make me guilty for not understanding the 'social norms'. For years, since i was a kid i think i do not usually know what people want, desire, what's their motive and what proper action should i do? Actually, i always think that kind of thing is something everyone must say so people could understand? But then my parents seems never satisfied with my inability to relate for what they want and asked me to figure it out more so i know before they told me to. My mom yelled to me back then "do you need to be programmed to understand it?" but deep down i really want to shout "of course, isn't that your duty??" because i think it's all about me being a kid who has no experience whatsoever.


I ended up thinking that i have to understand everyone in order to be accepted, so i started to observe what everyone wants, and what everyone thinks, based on what they do and their aspirations. Every single one is a special case for me, i behave with them based on what kind of reaction they probably expect me to give. Most of the time I often ask what they feel and what they expect from people in some scenarios. But it's so tiring to do it to many people. I do that effectively with my circle but not in a large community so i always ended up alienated, give them basic reactions and go because i don't understand everyone there, so i think such relationships will never work and i don't feel like i belong there. But the thing is i DO want to be involved in such activities with everyone, i'm craving the need to get so many experiences and possibilities in this world so i showed up in many communities and then disappeared in no times without any trace, because i don't really know why i should keep being there without any bond.


And everything has started to be more confusing since college. Guess that my friends valuing Fi except me. I caught by them as confrontational, arguing, and insensitive while i don't mean that. (And being chaotic and silly at the same time but generally i have no problem with it.)


My friend with Fe PoLR keep warn me for thinking about other people's feelings more and said that my reactions are too strong sometimes. But i think isn't it okay to spice things up sometimes, it's not that i feel the real aggression at times, it just how i express my excitement. But i guess she just feels irritated with a strong reaction due to her PoLR so i try to consider it more, it's not like i want to pick a fight with them so i need to be calm if needed.


Also about my friendship with my friend (i typed her as EII). Everything is chill in the beginning. But then she looks like expected something from me as a friend but i don't really understand. Rather than saying things directly even when i'm asked, she is more likely to make me feel guilty for never understand her. She made me feel obligated to understand what she feels and i feel manipulated somehow. When I took my own time to reflect on myself and not being with her for a week, she assumed that i have a problem with her, and keep pointing out how no one ever on her side on SNS. Up until the point i don't know how to explain it with her. Our friendship was going awkward for a month but now we're kinda good.


Then there's another Fi user said to me how they hate someone to make sense the viewpoints that don't morally sound in front of me, and i was just thinking-- but why you want me to pick a side, why you want me to feel bad for one thing but not for the other without any reason or explanation? Just because it doesn't up to your moral standards? I wonder why it's easy for them to know what to feel for something they mostly don't know how to explain at all? Is it what someone expected me to be? To pick a side?


The thing is i do want to understand but please stop makes me guilty for not knowing. Maybe i'm the weird one. They want me to understand but it's not like they even want to hear me in exchange anyway.


Sorry for messing so hard with this one, lol. I'm frustrated for how normal bonding with everyone never works for me how hard i try, and i don't know where to spill anymore.

[Ave]

In the early days of this forum there was a user by the name of Slava who wrote descriptions of the functions which were, in my opinion quite accurate. Here it is: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ight=functions

Notice what he says about the ego being "the people chemist". is about the repulsion or attraction you feel towards other people though this isn't really expressed through words or logic.

In any case, you say you have trouble understanding people without them explaining their motives, but you have to know people rarely express their true motives, especially when asked (could be because they are ashamed, in denial, even to themselves, afraid of being unmasked etc). I think it can be good to analyze their motives in the context of their actions, not based on what they say explicitly. Let me give you a dumb example of what I mean. In front of the store where I work there is a crossing where cars often get into near accidents with bikes or other cars. Once this girl in her car nearly ran over this guy on a bike, and then she started yelling at him. My ILI collegue told me that she was yelling because of the emotion that the idea she might have killed the guy. She wasn't hateful towards him, as a superficial onlooker might have assumed, but afraid she could have hurt him. Of course, she would never have admitted this.

This example is to point out that people's motives aeren't always what they seem, though they do "make sense" even if the true motive is often not what the person says it is.

[lemontrees]

IMO

trying to adapt yourself for everyone is a lot of work. unless you do it effortlessly.

i think just having empathy that other ppl are diff (and having empathy for yourself too), and knowing that some conflict is inevitable, regardless of if you’re good at Fi or not, is good enough.

sometimes you don't find friends you "click with" right away but you have time.

[The Reality Denialist]

I see. I would not directly point PoLR and type to this one. However when other factors like not paying attention to certain IME's at all (see subtype systems) it might make sense and also make you sound so troubled due to prolonged experiences.
So, what is your type? Well there are two to choose from...

[kannonzak]

In the early days of this forum there was a user by the name of Slava who wrote descriptions of the functions which were, in my opinion quite accurate. Here it is: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ight=functions

Notice what he says about the ego being "the people chemist". is about the repulsion or attraction you feel towards other people though this isn't really expressed through words or logic.

In any case, you say you have trouble understanding people without them explaining their motives, but you have to know people rarely express their true motives, especially when asked (could be because they are ashamed, in denial, even to themselves, afraid of being unmasked etc). I think it can be good to analyze their motives in the context of their actions, not based on what they say explicitly. Let me give you a dumb example of what I mean. In front of the store where I work there is a crossing where cars often get into near accidents with bikes or other cars. Once this girl in her car nearly ran over this guy on a bike, and then she started yelling at him. My ILI collegue told me that she was yelling because of the emotion that the idea she might have killed the guy. She wasn't hateful towards him, as a superficial onlooker might have assumed, but afraid she could have hurt him. Of course, she would never have admitted this.

This example is to point out that people's motives aeren't always what they seem, though they do "make sense" even if the true motive is often not what the person says it is.

That one. Is the one that makes me confused all the time. I realized that sometimes their intentions are different from how they act. I often encourage them to let me know but in the end i know they won't even tell me all (mostly because they're in denial i guess). In the end i gather all the possibilies, but then fed up and leave. But must of the time i also dont care as long as it seems nice from the surface.

For your example, i guess i kind of understand it. But the thing is i don't want to assume what them feel. I keep it neutral as how i see it neutral too. The problem coming after it's too late. It seems like they hide everything until things become complicated and hard to solve.

[kannonzak]

IMO

trying to adapt yourself for everyone is a lot of work. unless you do it effortlessly.

i think just having empathy that other ppl are diff (and having empathy for yourself too), and knowing that some conflict is inevitable, regardless of if you’re good at Fi or not, is good enough.

sometimes you don't find friends you "click with" right away but you have time.

Thank you.

I totally aware that people are different, and conflict is inevitable in every single aspect. The thing is i never hate them whatever value they have in mind, or how they treasure their feelings that much. i am just tired of how to do things appropriately in front of them regardly to their different values. I'm just tired to figure out sometimes. Maybe it's not related to the type or else, maybe it's just me being clueless ot just another anxiety.

[Lord Pixel]

This might be more revealing of my type lol. You don’t sound Fi PoLR from MY knowledge of PoLR Fi. No Fi PoLR is able to write with this much genuine emotion. And your emotional problems seem more internal than external, it sound more like aux Fi.

Every type can be rude, imo it depends on the situation that makes them rude. Even Fi types are rude and are emotionally spiky. Fi types can be EXTREMELY rude when there’s something that they morally disagree with.

I’m absolutely exhausted today but I’ll bite.

What really struck me most about this not being PoLR Fi is how you reacted to Fi using types. Any Fe user who has a hard time with Fi types complain about bad emotional external environment they create

Common issues:
1. They get upset easily but don’t notice that everyone in the room can tell that they’re upset
2. Inexpressive, hard to get a reaction from
3. Upset and drags everyone down with them, unwilling to discuss matters and let’s emotions boil
4. Doesn’t fully engage in drama; sees drama as something beneath

I can go on.

I PERSONALLY don’t see have a problem with bonding, maybe because I met my dual and I’m an SX/sp. But SX-blinds PoLR Fi is The Worst and Cannot Be Trusted. I don’t know where this stereotype of PoLR Fi comes from.

Also, part of being an xLE is y’know, having extraverted feeling, so the problem isn’t in picking up the social norm (which we can very well do but can never employ it efficiently) and more in not being able to pick up 1-1 personal values. For example, if it’s the social norm to poke people, an xLE will poke you even you continue to tell them that you dislike it. Because it’s socially normal, and they can’t ‘adapt’ because no Fi.

Now these are from my experiences, I know that I didn’t mention a whole list of good traits so it’s provably better to ask others.

As far as Fi PolR folks that's my only real issue, if your told to stop, then f*&king stop. Everything else is just them doing something I wouldn't do or understand why people do something like that, but it's got nothing to do with me so why care.

I didn't know people had an issue with other people who don't get involved in drama.

Inexpressive and hard to get a reaction from I think is a compliment to Fe PoLRs and ignoring, it makes them feel like they are hard to emotionally manipulate.

Drags everybody down? More like people let themselves get dragged down, one person's sadness isn't everybodies problem.

Unwilling to discuss matters? People actually want to hear the problems? Yea I didn't think so either.


As far as OP, I've actually never seen Fi through those lens, I don't really know what to say either. Damn.

[Lord Pixel]

That one. Is the one that makes me confused all the time. I realized that sometimes their intentions are different from how they act. I often encourage them to let me know but in the end i know they won't even tell me all (mostly because they're in denial i guess). In the end i gather all the possibilies, but then fed up and leave. But must of the time i also dont care as long as it seems nice from the surface.

For your example, i guess i kind of understand it. But the thing is i don't want to assume what them feel. I keep it neutral as how i see it neutral too. The problem coming after it's too late. It seems like they hide everything until things become complicated and hard to solve.

I think in denial is one reason, but people don't trust at the same speed. Like maybe some people don't trust other's enough to let them know all their motives, or they don't want criticism on who they really are and they anticipate other people using their secrets against them.

I know for me, I don't trust everybody to let them know everything inside. And sometimes I don't know what people will think if I showed my true colors.

Life can feel like you're a virigin at a frat party, the minute your secret gets out your screwed lol.


In more real terms, people have secrets, things they simply just don't want other people to know or aren't ready to talk about yet.

If find it weird when people expect you to be so open with them after only having met you, it's like "bruh I don't know you like that.."

I also think it's hidden because liek you said they expect you to be able to pick up on it.

[Aramas]

If anything, Fe valuing causes ILEs and SLEs to be more aware of the emotions of others and less aware of their own. But they use and manipulate the feelings of others to get what they want. Fe egos do the same thing, but more skillfully and often with more mindfulness of the net effect of their behavior. The snap back that Fe HA types get comes because they take Fe too far.

Fi, on the other hand, cares about itself, and is more likely to regularly offend the feelings of others. It's kind of like what Ben Shapiro said: "Facts (Te) don't care about your feelings (Fe). [They care about their own (Fi).]"

[kannonzak]

This might be more revealing of my type lol. You don’t sound Fi PoLR from MY knowledge of PoLR Fi. No Fi PoLR is able to write with this much genuine emotion. And your emotional problems seem more internal than external, it sound more like aux Fi.

Every type can be rude, imo it depends on the situation that makes them rude. Even Fi types are rude and are emotionally spiky. Fi types can be EXTREMELY rude when there’s something that they morally disagree with.

I’m absolutely exhausted today but I’ll bite.

What really struck me most about this not being PoLR Fi is how you reacted to Fi using types. Any Fe user who has a hard time with Fi types complain about bad emotional external environment they create

Common issues:
1. They get upset easily but don’t notice that everyone in the room can tell that they’re upset
2. Inexpressive, hard to get a reaction from
3. Upset and drags everyone down with them, unwilling to discuss matters and let’s emotions boil
4. Doesn’t fully engage in drama; sees drama as something beneath

I can go on.

I PERSONALLY don’t see have a problem with bonding, maybe because I met my dual and I’m an SX/sp. But SX-blinds PoLR Fi is The Worst and Cannot Be Trusted. I don’t know where this stereotype of PoLR Fi comes from.

Also, part of being an xLE is y’know, having extraverted feeling, so the problem isn’t in picking up the social norm (which we can very well do but can never employ it efficiently) and more in not being able to pick up 1-1 personal values. For example, if it’s the social norm to poke people, an xLE will poke you even you continue to tell them that you dislike it. Because it’s socially normal, and they can’t ‘adapt’ because no Fi.

Now these are from my experiences, I know that I didn’t mention a whole list of good traits so it’s provably better to ask others.

I legit wrinkled when you say 'genuine emotion' lol. But okay i guess i still want to make sure tho.

I don't realize it's more internally somehow. But maybe it's just how it runs in my head. The thing is i'm tired being embarassed for don't understand how they feel internally. For the other case with ESE friend, we make it cool and exciting. We often discuss what things annoy her most and doesn't embarassed to point out how they feel mostly, even tho i know it's just her trying to spice things up sometimes.
The other case is not major, except for the EII one, i'm just trying to figure out how my annoyance started from the beginning. I don't know if it has to do with her became supervisor/conflictor or nah but it looks like she obligated me to understand what she wants, passively. I feel controlled. She gave me things so she expected me to owe her something, she trying to be very dependant while i don't have the need to always be on her side actually. It's easy to just leave her actually but not when we are in the same environtment and bussiness. My feeling is entirely neutral to her so everytime she comeback to me and think that everything is going back to normal i'm totally good with it, but then this problem arises again. I'm tired.

That common isues, i totally relate from how all my friends reaction dialy when problem arises. No one ever willing to discuss the things so i feel stupid to asked everyone 'okay whats wrong with you actually' without no one give me a single reaction. I'm always the one to point out their problems, annoys them. My ILI friends somehow said that i'm bad for involving deeper feelings when encountering their issues.

Me myself is probably an sp/sx. I actually have no problem with bonding but i rather one-on-one and i hope that no one restrict me from doing my interest. That part of my word is very exaggerated for most of social situation bc actually i rather good at understanding them one-on-one, but maybe detached at the same time.

For that 'social norm' part, I know it's not a good term but my english is bad esp my word choices. That 'poke' is perfectly explain my dynamic with my ILI friend. I often provoke her with questions, just for knowing his reactions, in oreder to expose how her feeling, until they can't help but tell me that she likes/dislikes it and saying 'thanks for expose me' with slight annoyance lol.

[kannonzak]

I see. I would not directly point PoLR and type to this one. However when other factors like not paying attention to certain IME's at all (see subtype systems) it might make sense and also make you sound so troubled due to prolonged experiences.
So, what is your type? Well there are two to choose from...

I still let the possibilities wide open actually but for now Ti-ILE description fit me best, i can't find another type that troubleshoot myself for now so let me know if you have one.

[Lord Pixel]

@Lord Pixel

i don’t want to be nitpicky, but I specifically said it’s for Fe users that have a hard time with Fi. Fe users who are surrounded by Fi users that can’t establish ~social harmony~ tend to be this bitter towards it. But for some reason his problems is a completely different set, more in the lines of “this person does not value being authentic to themselves and makes me conform to others” rather than “this person is hard to reach an agreement with, their method of valueing is subjective and I can’t find a way to make it better”

About an xLE doing annoying people, dammit it’s so addicting? It’s so easy to become a stereotypical highschool bully with this mentality, competing with our LSE brothers (though I’d say LSE are worse because they do it to establish their position, while we do it for for fun.)

Yes, I didn't know Fe people had an issue with people not wanting to get involved in drama.

[The Reality Denialist]

First two point towards Fe, third and fourth Fi, last one makes me confused *shrug* I can never get a reaction from an ILI, and the only people with that ability is high Fi.

Ok, I think I judged you too quickly since this isn’t your first language, but if you a native then I stand by my judgment. I’ve noticed xLE of different cultures vary quite a lot.

That is input and plausible output thinking of ILE. Besides I'd look more into other things in light of right and left spin types since they show especially lower functions differently.

Like ILE could be a provocateur to their own detriment... and sometimes love it (see the same spin with EIE).

You claiming of relatively easily forming relations I could say super heavy Fi but nah.

You can also observe this from ESI and EII. EII's are not about forming close control relations around people (neither are SEE's really like that) they just listen to you and stuff while ESI's take you as prisoner.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Hmm. It is hard for a lot of people to fit in. A lot of that society stuff is just sort of like, this huge circle-jerk of either cruelty or faux manipulative-compassion you know (which is the same thing as cruelty- but a smarter form). If you refuse to participate in it for whatever reason (not that you are so 'good' yourself- as that is the same trap they participate in that you don't want to fall in) you can feel (and be) very left out. The cruelty isn't necessarily some obvious, over the top thing either - it is often quite insidious and low-key (but still very hurtful) especially in professional settings etc.

Idk how Fe/Fi this is or whatnot, I don't really care to analyze it socionically right now.

I understand and sympathize wanting to belong with others and have them like you I guess, I remember when I used to have that in real life and it felt good- but the thing is its often taken away from you for the silliest of reasons, and when the cold inevitably comes in life I'd rather be strong myself and know how to survive my own self than rely on the support of others. If you need support, you should be very, very careful who its from because most of the time in American society especially you will just end up pissing somebody off rather than get them to support you lol.

It is disgusting and self-defeating to want to be accepted by others who are no good for you in the Fi sense. Ideally, try to aim to be around people who only enhance you. If they aren't doing this, you need to view them more as a pawn or physical object. You need to be entirely closed off emotionally from them, or you will just get into 'hurt victim' mode with no way out... Even if you aren't very businesslike yourself, you need to have business type relations with others, that is- not heart or personal ones, to protect your heart so you can give it to people who will treat you right. You don't have to bend over backwards trying to understand everybody and make them understand you. Those who matter don't mind and those who mind don't matter.

[kannonzak]

First two point towards Fe, third and fourth Fi, last one makes me confused *shrug* I can never get a reaction from an ILI, and the only people with that ability is high Fi.

Ok, I think I judged you too quickly since this isn’t your first language, but if you a native then I stand by my judgment. I’ve noticed xLE of different cultures vary quite a lot.

Hmmm guess i need to explain then.

Okay, i don't know where do you come from, but my country is very ethic valuing. In our culture, straightly saying what you want without smoothing it with small talk may perceived as rude. The thing is just 'act nice' is not enough, especially with people you may frequently meet. You need to be 'connected' in a familial way with every people, as much as you can, so you'll have more people to help you later when you need it. It always encouraged in school, college, workplace, or any community possible. In this country we somehow believe that no one can live alone in the end. What they mean as 'not alone' is to have a relationship with everyone. (Plus this people don't see conflict as desirable and avoid it as much as they can)


Just looking from how people typing someone in this forum, it wouldn't work well with our people. You might be mistyped some Fe PoLR for being able to do small talk nicely, or mistyped some Fi PoLR for valuing relations with everyone. In the other hand you may see some ExI would never being stubborn about their values and 'agreeable' in the surface. Well rather than thinking it as our genuine value, we just thinking it's how we survive in this place. We do it mostly bc that's how we taught. Everyone who doesn't blend with this system deserved alienation. Guess that whatever type you have you still want to be accepted in so many ways.


Guess i have no prob with keep acting nice, smiling with stranger or escalating the mood with other person in general. I could do it in the way i look like blend on the surface. But to do it frequently, while i have no real bond, to everyone, everyday, is very tiring somehow. I ended up looked as unreliable and having no commitment by others. My highschool friend already said how rude i am for haven't contacted them for a year when we already separated and most likely would never meet except for school reunion.

[kannonzak]

+ our people is very aristocratic especially for respecting older people and perceive them as much more experienced. So you need to listen to them and talk nicely however correct you are about something. (dunno why I add this but okay)

[The Reality Denialist]

Hmmm guess i need to explain then.

Okay, i don't know where do you come from, but my country is very ethic valuing. In our culture, straightly saying what you want without smoothing it with small talk may perceived as rude. The thing is just 'act nice' is not enough, especially with people you may frequently meet. You need to be 'connected' in a familial way with every people, as much as you can, so you'll have more people to help you later when you need it. It always encouraged in school, college, workplace, or any community possible. In this country we somehow believe that no one can live alone in the end. What they mean as 'not alone' is to have a relationship with everyone. (Plus this people don't see conflict as desirable and avoid it as much as they can)

Yeah. I have wanted to renounce my citizenship before. I find the hardest when Fi base tries to handle me. It is usually something that it kills me inside, makes empty which is not good – completely stifles me. I need some current inside of me in order to be social. I do know ILE's who have blanded themselves (or they are naturally like that) and are quite dependent on others and it is usually me who can shake them positively and paradoxically. Blanding and blending has a personal cost that seem to high to pay if you ask me.

[kannonzak]

Fam, seems like your problems stems from being sp/sx and soc-blind. I do understand the culture part, I come from 2 different cultures and one of them sounds like what you’re describing. Which is why I backed off once I knew your culture was different, as I practice most of my online typing by looking at people from the USA.

Your reasoning makes sense, but I enjoy a discussion. So if I see something that doesn’t co align with what I know, I will try to find out more or jump to conclusions.

soc-blind, i see. Never thought about this actually, I'll search about it more next time.

well I have no problem with the way you discuss, just let me know if you have thoughts in your mind, the conclusions also help me to specify my problem actually so thank you.

[kannonzak]

Yeah. I have wanted to renounce my citizenship before. I find the hardest when Fi base tries to handle me. It is usually something that it kills me inside, makes empty which is not good – completely stifles me. I need some current inside of me in order to be social. I do know ILE's who have blanded themselves (or they are naturally like that) and are quite dependent on others and it is usually me who can shake them positively and paradoxically. Blanding and blending has a personal cost that seem to high to pay if you ask me.

I reallly want to bold every line but the bolded part is seems like my current phase for now. Fi base always knows how to make me feel like an empty shell. They make me push myself real hard to exploring inside in circle where i'm not sure will i really have that one or not.

[Lord Pixel]

Yeah. I have wanted to renounce my citizenship before. I find the hardest when Fi base tries to handle me. It is usually something that it kills me inside, makes empty which is not good – completely stifles me. I need some current inside of me in order to be social. I do know ILE's who have blanded themselves (or they are naturally like that) and are quite dependent on others and it is usually me who can shake them positively and paradoxically. Blanding and blending has a personal cost that seem to high to pay if you ask me.

This is interesting because I never get to see it from this side. I do notice that I require my ILE roomate to "bland" himself. And it goes beyond just me being a killjoy, it's almost like he is turned off like an lightbulb and yea something dies on the inside. And that sucks. It's just when he is turned on and has got that current going he uses it to attack me, so I require him to "bland" or calm down so I don't get attacked.The only time he can light up and I can relax and not get attacked is when we are coming up with ideas about a project.

It's like a cactus who is friends with a balloon, and the balloon says this is only gonna work if you retract your spikes.

I guess that's part of the struggle OP is talking about, he doesn't know what behavior is or isn't acceptable around Fi because it's not spoken, Fe users let you what is right and wrong while Fi does not, they expect people to know certain things, or pick up on certain things. So I'm guessing it feels stifling because you can't go left and you can't go right, without thinking your doing something wrong. All these unspoken ethics and values.

[Samson]

If I'm reading this correctly, we have a sensitivity to succumbing to the surrounding culture (i.e. expectations) on the one hand, and a seeming inability to respond to this with much nuance, all in contrast to how others (appear to) behave.

A compromised ethical function sounds about right. Though I am unconvinced that it is Fi PoLR in this instance.

[xerx]

I come from exactly the same type of collectivist culture where obligatory daily socializing (especially with family and friends of family) is your whole life. My parents used to get angry at me for staying in my room to read books; apparently, I was supposed to sit with guests and pretend to laugh at their racist jokes.

[The Reality Denialist]

I reallly want to bold every line but the bolded part is seems like my current phase for now. Fi base always knows how to make me feel like an empty shell. They make me push myself real hard to exploring inside in circle where i'm not sure will i really have that one or not.

You might want to check this one. It is just that there are ILE's who are quite Ij like. [Might be even majority of them.]

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1350450

[Sol]

I guess i feel this annoyance every time people make me guilty for not understanding the 'social norms'.

this mb related not to Fi only. rules are Ti and objective (for all) ethics is Fe
Fi ego people care about norms of behavior when people mb hurted when you break them. they do not see norms as obligate traditions, but as ways to reduce redundant conflicts. Also they'll prefer to look into concrete case, to lesser generalize ethics. Fi types have higher compassion to concrete people.
The other difference with Fe types ethics is that Fe types link "good behavior" with formal social roles of people. Fe types may be "creative" with ethics too, as are sure that people with higher social status have lesser ethical limitations and more are allowed to hurt others for own needs. It's them who tend to force you to ignore own feelings and concrete situations to behave by common rules, to look as "decent" from a side and on surface, despite what happens there indeed.

> since i was a kid i think i do not usually know what people want, desire, what's their motive and what proper action should i do?

in case of T type, it's common to do not think much about peoples emotions and wishes
also P types additionally do not like rules and to think beforehand about "proper actions"

[kannonzak]

I guess that's part of the struggle OP is talking about, he doesn't know what behavior is or isn't acceptable around Fi because it's not spoken, Fe users let you what is right and wrong while Fi does not, they expect people to know certain things, or pick up on certain things. So I'm guessing it feels stifling because you can't go left and you can't go right, without thinking your doing something wrong. All these unspoken ethics and values.

Yup.

[kannonzak]

If I'm reading this correctly, we have a sensitivity to succumbing to the surrounding culture (i.e. expectations) on the one hand, and a seeming inability to respond to this with much nuance, all in contrast to how others (appear to) behave.

A compromised ethical function sounds about right. Though I am unconvinced that it is Fi PoLR in this instance.

That's true, it's not significant at first because that's totally me try to process my circumtance with any thought in mind also based on what my T type friends generally feel after some talks.

[kannonzak]

You might want to check this one. It is just that there are ILE's who are quite Ij like. [Might be even majority of them.]

https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1350450

I've read the thread, very interesting. I'm not really understand DCNH subtypes at first, before i read Desor's study.

Based on the discussion alone, guess I took my role more like a N type, especially when i was a kid, under my parents circumstance. But lately, especially after I entered college and start living alone, i guess i'm more likely behaving like a C type. I always think that no one can help me, however reliable anyone (or system) is. So at that time i tought it's time to take my own way, for my own advantage. (might be based on my tritype for being a triple-rejection)


I took art major anyway even when my parents didn't approve that, trying to do any experience i've never experienced before and spend more money for my own pleasure. I always give an impression of unreliable person since then, totaly less concern about my score and being proud of it, weight my education more for my own experience so everyone can leave me alone while i'm searching my own way to reach my goal. But i guess it still doesn't significant since i still weight things on Se-Si in many ways. On the other hand i start to realize that i'm attracted to abstract theories more than some practical theories. Not sure if i'm just a mix of two, overlapping my rebellious tendencies as C, or maybe i'm started to transforming(?) from N to C.


I tried the test on reddit forum from the link in the thread.

1, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 19, 21, 24, 26, 27, 29, 31, 34, 36, 37, 40, 41, 44, 45, 47, 49


E=4, I=1, J=0, P=5, T=5, F=0, S=1, N=4
Terminating = 2, Initiating = 3

[kannonzak]

this mb related not to Fi only. rules are Ti and objective (for all) ethics is Fe
Fi ego people care about norms of behavior when people mb hurted when you break them. they do not see norms as obligate traditions, but as ways to reduce redundant conflicts. Also they'll prefer to look into concrete case, to lesser generalize ethics. Fi types have higher compassion to concrete people.
The other difference with Fe types ethics is that Fe types link "good behavior" with formal social roles of people. Fe types may be "creative" with ethics too, as are sure that people with higher social status have lesser ethical limitations and more are allowed to hurt others for own needs. It's them who tend to force you to ignore own feelings and concrete situations to behave by common rules, to look as "decent" from a side and on surface, despite what happens there indeed.

Yes, I've mentioned at my replies that in my country, social norms also based on Fi characteristic (along with some Fe characteristic), as you say, to reduce redundant conflict, and also to keep a relationship good not only on the surface (as formal things) but also in a deeper level (like a family) with as many people as you can. You can see I contradict myself by saying that i'm not into that kind of social norms but generally have no problem with doing nice on the surface in the reply. On the other hand I'm totally troubled when i'm obligated to take that relationships deeper with the cost i have to use Fe too much, without any Fi used, and become tired. The only matter is how we perceived 'social norm' based on where we lived. (Since the place where socionics developed has much more direct manner than my country)

in case of T type, it's common to do not think much about peoples emotions and wishes
also P types additionally do not like rules and to think beforehand about "proper actions"

Seems like true, it troubled any T type to follow it somehow. Ethics Base and Creative generally have no problem with that since the other ethic function still on Id block. Fe ego block and Fi ego block sure have different style about their approach but generally they're very good for blending themself in our society.

[Sol]

Yes, I've mentioned at my replies that in my country, social norms also based on Fi characteristic

the said about social norms in the connection with functions is universal, not specifics for some nations or places

It mb added, that Fe can represent subjective views also. When some human thinks something as objectively decent and mb even more decent than common Fe norms. We may get a join of Fe and Fi, as that human likes more that behavior, and in the same time thinks about as good for all (Fe region).

Pairs of functions with different E/I mb said as describing the same from different sides. The both work in the same time - one in the attention and the other in the background, in a shadow, as a filter. The reason why both functions are strong in the model, - both F, T, S, N; not possibly to have strong Fi and weak Fe, - as both work together.

Fe types have lesser of consciouse compassion, but the norms they wish are directed to make better feelings in people. Those Fe norms are created as a generalization of Fi needs in everyone. In the same time - what people wish subjectively (Fi) is defined by what is objectively good for them in average (Fe). Fi follows from Fe, Fe from Fi.

IR effects where we perceive some people as better for us is a result of our psyche distortion, our perception of people and life values is distorted. Objectively all 8 functions are equally important for the life. But we tend to close our minds from some of them, to dislike or reduce consciouse caring there. Jung types make us to understand and accept only a part of our true Self, - while the rest is shifted to lesser consciuse regions of our minds.

Jung never supposed types as something good. He wanted to reduce them in the psyche to allow it be more effective and healthy. He tried to do this by rising in the consciousness the contents of unconscious/weak function. So types were used as a part of his psychotherapy.
Duality adds to this alot. Duals are natural helpers for our psyche and minds to become healthier and stronger, not only ones who may take care about us in weak regions. We study at them to use weak functions. The best this happens in deep love and friendship relations, when borders between peoples minds become thiner, when we introject personalities of each other. In this process we not only get traits of other human but also more completely understand themselves, more consciously connect with our Self.

> On the other hand I'm totally troubled when i'm obligated to take that relationships deeper with the cost i have to use Fe too much, without any Fi used, and become tired

You may become tired from disbalance in the consciousness of any functions as they all are important equally. When you have no this - your unconsciousness deals with that, may oppose and you feel this as having lesser of energy, or by other neurotic region symptoms.
The other trouble may follow from our types. We need additional resources to switch to nonvalued functions. So in bad IR we feel tired more quickly. Conflictors give this the most.

[kannonzak]

the said about social norms in the connection with functions is universal, not specifics for some nations or places

It mb added, that Fe can represent subjective views also. When some human thinks something as objectively decent and mb even more decent than common Fe norms. We may get a join of Fe and Fi, as that human likes more that behavior, and in the same time thinks about as good for all (Fe region).

Pairs of functions with different E/I mb said as describing the same from different sides. The both work in the same time - one in the attention and the other in the background, in a shadow, as a filter. The reason why both functions are strong in the model, - both F, T, S, N; not possibly to have strong Fi and weak Fe, - as both work together.

Fe types have lesser of consciouse compassion, but the norms they wish are directed to make better feelings in people. Those Fe norms are created as a generalization of Fi needs in everyone. In the same time - what people wish subjectively (Fi) is defined by what is objectively good for them in average (Fe). Fi follows from Fe, Fe from Fi.

IR effects where we perceive some people as better for us is a result of our psyche distortion, our perception of people and life values is distorted. Objectively all 8 functions are equally important for the life. But we tend to close our minds from some of them, to dislike or reduce consciouse caring there. Jung types make us to understand and accept only a part of our true Self, - while the rest is shifted to lesser consciuse regions of our minds.

Jung never supposed types as something good. He wanted to reduce them in the psyche to allow it be more effective and healthy. He tried to do this by rising in the consciousness the contents of unconscious/weak function. So types were used as a part of his psychotherapy.
Duality adds to this alot. Duals are natural helpers for our psyche and minds to become healthier and stronger, not only ones who may take care about us in weak regions. We study at them to use weak functions. The best this happens in deep love and friendship relations, when borders between peoples minds become thiner, when we introject personalities of each other. In this process we not only get traits of other human but also more completely understand themselves, more consciously connect with our Self.

> On the other hand I'm totally troubled when i'm obligated to take that relationships deeper with the cost i have to use Fe too much, without any Fi used, and become tired

You may become tired from disbalance in the consciousness of any functions as they all are important equally. When you have no this - your unconsciousness deals with that, may oppose and you feel this as having lesser of energy, or by other neurotic region symptoms.
The other trouble may follow from our types. We need additional resources to switch to nonvalued functions. So in bad IR we feel tired more quickly. Conflictors give this the most.

That's true, first i see some deeper relationship as normality, as long as it's good for everyone then why not following it. The subjectivity become objective because it's accepted by everyone. But then i realized that this norm is also came from many subjective view, since we need to 'please' everyone with different view, as a norm. This is where they're overlap.

Here i said about that 'social norm' being subjective because here, in the forum, we come from different places with different norm applied. Of course as a citizen i'm still thinking that one as common view on the place where i step now. I'm still trying to smooth myself following it as a norm while i realized that i maybe couldn't follow it theroughtly as what people expect.

I agree that every function is important, i don't see any importance of disliking one function or else. Maybe that dual theory is true, i just need to find someone to learn from so i know how to use it properly since i rarely ever get one so far. Also, based what i know abt my type now, seems like i never meet any conflictor before but even supervisor already stressed me for now lol.

[Finaplex]

It less about being rude and thoughtless and careless

And more about just not thinking about inner worlds at all.

Doesn't mean they will be mean and cruel.

What person who was raised by good parents walks around being mean and cruel to people?

And um HELLO, have you ever tried being mean and cruel and thoughtless around a SEI... the mediator?

Not likely.

What you get is more assumptions from them that everybody likes them from the get go.

Everyone is their friend, everyone is good and everyone is and should be good to them.

This is why they don't have a sense of boundary between people..not because of any reason other than they literally don't think about boundaries in the same way a Fi person is considering them. Nothing is sacred in this way, even physical boundaries in the case of SLE. And idea boundaries in the case of ILE.

They just don't think about it, point of least resistance.

This is why you are seeing all these unusual outliers of gentlemen SLE and people pleaser ILE: that are ultra considerate of people in that objective ethics sort of way.

In the case of SLE they can be this way while simultaneously not being devoid of Se.

As far as Fi is concerned for them they are really more-so looking for a Fe 'home' and that 'home' is always coloured by their duals creative function ie: Si and Ni.

[kannonzak]

It less about being rude and thoughtless and careless

And more about just not thinking about inner worlds at all.

Doesn't mean they will be mean and cruel.

What person who was raised by good parents walks around being mean and cruel to people?

And um HELLO, have you ever tried being mean and cruel and thoughtless around a SEI... the mediator?

Not likely.

Not sure which part i said Fi PoLR is about being rude, dude. But you've got a point.

If my typing true, the last time i met a SEI i wouldn't even let a fly hurts her.

[Exodus]

Hmmm guess i need to explain then.

Okay, i don't know where do you come from, but my country is very ethic valuing. In our culture, straightly saying what you want without smoothing it with small talk may perceived as rude. The thing is just 'act nice' is not enough, especially with people you may frequently meet. You need to be 'connected' in a familial way with every people, as much as you can, so you'll have more people to help you later when you need it. It always encouraged in school, college, workplace, or any community possible. In this country we somehow believe that no one can live alone in the end. What they mean as 'not alone' is to have a relationship with everyone. (Plus this people don't see conflict as desirable and avoid it as much as they can)


Just looking from how people typing someone in this forum, it wouldn't work well with our people. You might be mistyped some Fe PoLR for being able to do small talk nicely, or mistyped some Fi PoLR for valuing relations with everyone. In the other hand you may see some ExI would never being stubborn about their values and 'agreeable' in the surface. Well rather than thinking it as our genuine value, we just thinking it's how we survive in this place. We do it mostly bc that's how we taught. Everyone who doesn't blend with this system deserved alienation. Guess that whatever type you have you still want to be accepted in so many ways.


Guess i have no prob with keep acting nice, smiling with stranger or escalating the mood with other person in general. I could do it in the way i look like blend on the surface. But to do it frequently, while i have no real bond, to everyone, everyday, is very tiring somehow. I ended up looked as unreliable and having no commitment by others. My highschool friend already said how rude i am for haven't contacted them for a year when we already separated and most likely would never meet except for school reunion.

What you're describing here does not sound like Fe mobilizing. If anything your problems are more with Fe than with Fi. Maybe you're LII or something.

[kannonzak]

What you're describing here does not sound like Fe mobilizing. If anything your problems are more with Fe than with Fi. Maybe you're LII or something.

ok kind of late but I don't think i'm an LII because my Se seems too high to be one.